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Arkadrell
Posted - 2008.11.27 10:42:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Akita T
And another month has passed *wink* Wink


I see what you did there ;) hehe I like this thread though,
helped me alot when starting out (posting from a alt atm).

new mission runners out there, do the smart thing and just pick:

Amarr/khanid/cyberknight with +3per +2int
lazers are FoTM atm and the insane perception is lifesafer on training times.

Elwin Ransom
Posted - 2008.11.29 07:09:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Elwin Ransom on 29/11/2008 08:37:19

My Caldari is going strong, thanks to your advice, Akita!

I am going to buy a second account and for fun do a Gallente drone specialist for PvP and Mission running. I may branch out eventually, but this seems like a fun direction to try--Drone Dominix, Drone HAC Ishtar, and maybe Sin (?)

Anyway, I was considering the hideously ugly Jin-Mei/Saan-Go with +1 Will, +2 Per, +1 Mem, and +1 Int yielding the balanced 7 Charisma and 8 to all other attributes (8/8/8/8/7). Special Forces gives a nice drone startup.

Or as an alternate, I could go with the hideously ugly Achura/Monk with +2 Mem, +3 Per yielding the nicely tuned 3 Charisma, 12 Per and 8 to everything else (12/8/8/8/3).

I could go with the balanced 8 in everthing except 7 in Mem with the Intaki/Artist (8/8/8/7/8) which is less strong than the Jin-Mei, but slightly less hideous'ish....

Anyway, can you or someone else make some comments on directions for the rarified Gallente drone specialist?

Rhyls Nairn
Posted - 2008.12.01 04:46:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Rhyls Nairn on 01/12/2008 04:58:48
Edited by: Rhyls Nairn on 01/12/2008 04:57:20
Edited by: Rhyls Nairn on 01/12/2008 04:54:27
Edited by: Rhyls Nairn on 01/12/2008 04:48:35
I started with 6 Charisma 8 Intelligence 10 Memory 8 Perception 6 Willpower (Achura Stargazer +3 Cha +2 Mem)... I didn't realize until a month into it that I messedup and should have picked something more like 3/9/9/9/9 or 3/10/10/10/6 ... is it too late to re-roll? I've got +5 implants and learning skills up a lot now.... how long would it take a reroll to 'catch up' to a month (3.5Mil) of sp? I feel like I'd really be hurting when it comes to training Tech2 ships, and weapons skills... even if Learning Skills and Implants do 'even out' the barrier some... thoughts?

Rhyls Nairn
Posted - 2008.12.01 04:47:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Rhyls Nairn on 01/12/2008 04:49:56
double post

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.01 09:33:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 01/12/2008 10:30:54

Originally by: Rhyls Nairn
6 Cha 8 Int 10 Mem 8 Per 6 Wil [...] +5 implants and learning skills up a lot now[...]is it too late to re-roll? [...] how long would it take a reroll to 'catch up' to a month (3.5Mil) of sp?

By the way, 3.5 mil (2.7 mil trained) is more like nearly two month's worth of SP if starting from scratch, if not more.

With a 9/9/9/9/3 you would actually train the basic learning skills slightly slower, but all advanced learnings (and cybernetics) except advanced memory slightly faster (adv mem would be slightly slower)... overall, considering you're more likely to finish all basic learnings to L5 but only go for some advanced L5s, I'd say you'd need slightly longer than you already needed - but that's not really your greatest worry... by the time you finish your skill training, you're actually going to be closer to the actual 3.5 mil or maybe even 4 mil SP behind compared to not switching at all (the non-switch would have trained at full training speed including implants, the new one took nearly two months to get to the same point, etc).

Assuming you want a PvP-oriented career, most of your support skills will be int/mem (where the "all nines" char will train with 33 SP/hour faster) and mem/per (drones, where your current char gets the 33 SP/hour advantage over the "all nines"), and most of your heavy duty skills will be in per/will (where the "all nines" will get 165 SP/hour advantage), with a couple wil/per skills once you reach T2 ships (231 SP/hour disadvantage) - all of it assuming same level of learning skills and implants.

Further assuming that you'd be mostly training ship skills rather than support skills (not quite true, but close enough especially once you consider cross-training other race's T2 ships/weapons), you're looking at nearly two and a half years to break even[/b] (maybe even three years, realistically speaking) if you abandoned the character you already have and recreated your "optimal" all-nines one.
I am putting it in quotes because that's not quite the optimal PvP character - you'd probably like a +3 per +2 int achura monk instead for this particular task (12 per, 10 int, 6 mem, 8 wil, 3 cha), which gets a whooping 264 SP/hour advantage in per/wil combat skills while not falling too much behind in the rest (it's actually faster than the "all nines" in wil/per too, but not by that much) - but even like that, the best case scenario for break-even is closer to a year and a half (and realistically, probably closer to two years too).


There's a LOT of guesswork involved, especially since you can't know for sure what type of skills you'll be learning and exacty how much SP advantage your old character would have had at the moment your new one would finish the same learnings your old one has now.
Basically, your character attribute picks weren't all that bad to begin with, so it just doesn't make all that much sense to change it now, especially after sinking this much time and ISK into it.

Lyris Nairn
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.12.01 17:14:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Lyris Nairn on 01/12/2008 17:17:30
Edited by: Lyris Nairn on 01/12/2008 17:14:09
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 01/12/2008 10:30:54

Originally by: Rhyls Nairn
6 Cha 8 Int 10 Mem 8 Per 6 Wil [...] +5 implants and learning skills up a lot now[...]is it too late to re-roll? [...] how long would it take a reroll to 'catch up' to a month (3.5Mil) of sp?

By the way, 3.5 mil (2.7 mil trained) is more like nearly two month's worth of SP if starting from scratch, if not more.

With a 9/9/9/9/3 you would actually train the basic learning skills slightly slower, but all advanced learnings (and cybernetics) except advanced memory slightly faster (adv mem would be slightly slower)... overall, considering you're more likely to finish all basic learnings to L5 but only go for some advanced L5s, I'd say you'd need slightly longer than you already needed - but that's not really your greatest worry... by the time you finish your skill training, you're actually going to be closer to the actual 3.5 mil or maybe even 4 mil SP behind compared to not switching at all (the non-switch would have trained at full training speed including implants, the new one took nearly two months to get to the same point, etc).

Assuming you want a PvP-oriented career, most of your support skills will be int/mem (where the "all nines" char will train with 33 SP/hour faster) and mem/per (drones, where your current char gets the 33 SP/hour advantage over the "all nines"), and most of your heavy duty skills will be in per/will (where the "all nines" will get 165 SP/hour advantage), with a couple wil/per skills once you reach T2 ships (231 SP/hour disadvantage) - all of it assuming same level of learning skills and implants.

Further assuming that you'd be mostly training ship skills rather than support skills (not quite true, but close enough especially once you consider cross-training other race's T2 ships/weapons), you're looking at nearly two and a half years to break even[/b] (maybe even three years, realistically speaking) if you abandoned the character you already have and recreated your "optimal" all-nines one.
I am putting it in quotes because that's not quite the optimal PvP character - you'd probably like a +3 per +2 int achura monk instead for this particular task (12 per, 10 int, 6 mem, 8 wil, 3 cha), which gets a whooping 264 SP/hour advantage in per/wil combat skills while not falling too much behind in the rest (it's actually faster than the "all nines" in wil/per too, but not by that much) - but even like that, the best case scenario for break-even is closer to a year and a half (and realistically, probably closer to two years too).


There's a LOT of guesswork involved, especially since you can't know for sure what type of skills you'll be learning and exacty how much SP advantage your old character would have had at the moment your new one would finish the same learnings your old one has now.
Basically, your character attribute picks weren't all that bad to begin with, so it just doesn't make all that much sense to change it now, especially after sinking this much time and ISK into it.


I recall you pointing out in one of your first-page posts that +3 Charisma and +2 Memory were the worst possible stats to pick on an Achura. Why the turnaround in opinion? Has something changed? It was that comment that made me want to rework it. The comparison was not supposed to be 8int/10mem/8per vs all 9s, but rather the fact that I sunk points into charisma that is apparently useless.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.01 18:22:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 01/12/2008 18:25:15
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
I recall you pointing out in one of your first-page posts that +3 Charisma and +2 Memory were the worst possible stats to pick on an Achura. Why the turnaround in opinion? Has something changed? It was that comment that made me want to rework it. The comparison was not supposed to be 8int/10mem/8per vs all 9s, but rather the fact that I sunk points into charisma that is apparently useless.

I believe I also said somewhere early that in the very long run, the difference between the best possible character pick and the worst possible character pick after you take into account maxed-out learnings and the best implant sets will be quite negligible, especially after you take into account all possible sub-specialisations.

Anyway, the average skillpoint count is 7.8, Achura starts with 3 base charisma... so even if you sink +3 into charisma, that's still only 6 points base, well below average (which means something else gets to be above average).
In other words, you just can't screw up an Achura character too much even if you try Laughing
And that goes double for a monk, which starts with above average per and slightly above average int/wil.

So your baseline wasn't exactly "the worst possible pick" but rather "a suboptimal variation of one of the best picks"... which is still better than some of the best non-Achura picks you can get.
___

Now, would you have picked something like Minmatar Vherokior Retailer +3 cha +2 mem and tried to go for a PvP career (attributes 4 per, 3 wil base), now that would have been an almost no-brainer, swap for sure.
But consider the extreme reverse of that, a Minmatar Brutor Slavechild with +3 per +2 wil (for 14 per, 11 wil base)... that's the farthest you can possibly go purely in terms of weapon/ship training from "worst" to "best".
But after you finish all skill training and plug in +5 implants, that becomes 20.9 per / 19.8 wil for worst vs 31.9 per / 28.6 wil for best, or 1848 SP/hour and 2772 SP/hour (924 SP/hour difference).

Even like that, assuming roughly 3 mil SP advantage and ONLY training ship/weapon skills past the learning skills, that's still four months and a half to catch up.
However, considering you will also need to spend a LOT more doing the learnings since your int/mem are quite pathetic, and you will also need a bit of support skills alongside your combat skills, you're actually going to need closer to one year to really catch up even in this worst/best case scenario.

Lavanya Leotie
Posted - 2008.12.13 11:52:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Lavanya Leotie on 14/12/2008 08:30:33
ugh
hi Akita and eve world Smile

very interesting topics and lots of info...Smile

i am looking to create a combat character... but not so sure what to choose Sad

having read all infos, i think i like the specs of Gallente ships. so i would like to train for their ships drones and rails. but also i enjoy caldari ship's specs. and want to train for them as well. ( i would like to train everything to T2, capitals, barges, Laughing)

my objective is primarly to be a heavy duty PVPer (in due time of course Embarassed) and PVEer, voila. Cool

now here is my delima, what should i do Question where shouls i start QuestionQuestion ConfusedConfused

this new character will not be doing any industrial stuff (except for mining in a hulk one day) nor scientific stuff (except for getting implants). this char or toon will be a mainly sweet Cool PVPer and YARRRR!! PVEer. Wink

can you please advise what options i have with their best attribute points distribution ( i understans i should have +3per / +2int in general )

appreciate your inputsSmileSmileSmile


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.15 11:16:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 15/12/2008 11:31:54


My personal favs for heavy PvP/PvE focus would be (in this order)

#1 Caldari Achura Monk with +3 per +2 int for all-round goodness
= 12 per, 10 int, 8 wil, 6 mem, 3 cha
or
#2 Amarr Khanid Cyberknight +3 int +2 mem for a relatively balanced setup, more meaty on the support side rather than a lot of cross-training or shorter-term benefits (like #4)
= 11 per, 9 int, 8 wil, 6 mem, 5 cha
or
#3 Caldari Achura Stargazer with +3 per +2 int for slightly more focus on support skills (especially drones)
= 11 per, 10 int, 6 wil, 9 mem, 3 cha
or
#4 Amarr Khanid Cyberknight +3 per +2 int for heavily cross-training focused, very long-term oriented
= 14 per, 8 int, 8 wil, 4 mem, 5 cha

... for all three options, pick Engineer (Achura faster for shield-tankers early on - pretty much all Caldari ships and some Minmatar ; Khanid slightly faster for armor-tankers early on - pretty much all Amarr and Gallente ships, some Minmatar), train Cybernetics 1 as first thing and plug in some +3 implants (assuming you can afford them early on in the char's life) and finish at least L4 basics and L3 advanced learnings first (shouldn't take that long, a week or so - int/mem/learning first, per/wil after, you can do or skip charisma, although a L4 basic and L2 advanced charisma can't hurt, especially since you'll also want Social 3/4 and Connections 3/4 early on as a mission-runner).

Lavanya Leotie
Posted - 2008.12.15 17:03:00 - [220]
 

Very HappyVery Happywhat a report waow... u r realy CoolCool

i just would like to come around this issue i am facing withEmbarassed
if i were to choose: (forgeting Charisma)only P/I/W/M +3P/+2I

Achura Monk
Special forces: 14/10/12/6
Engineer : 12/14/8/8

Achura Stargazer
Special forces: 13/10/10/9
Engineer : 11/14/6/11

how are these going to effect me in my lets say first 6 months and 2nd 6 months and 3rd 6months of the game.

now, my objective is to be able to use or cross train for both Gallente/caldari ships and have drones /missiles specialization. (with of course rails and blasters Laughing)

from what i have understood, normaly, P/W must be higher, and should choose Military/Special Forces. where as here u propose to gear towards engineering. Could you expand on this little more Question

please forgive my noobi state of mindEmbarassed, just little confused here...

oh a friend of mine had created this situation:
Achura Stargazer +3I/+1M/+1P
Special forces: 11/11/10/10
what would your point of view or advise be for this set up...

well, i hope not giving u too much of a trouble, Embarassed, but based on this i believe to be able to create my new char.Very HappyVery Happy

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.16 00:15:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 16/12/2008 00:28:31
_

Re-read the first few posts in this thread and all should get clearer Wink

Long story short, the idea is that only basic attributes matter in the long run, not effective attributes at moment of character creation (those are affected by the very few "uneven" learning skills you have, and you WILL be training ALL learning skills to L4 basic and at least a L3 advanced, maybe L4 advanced... bottom line, in the end, the learning skill bonuses will be even among all or at least most attributes, so only the BASE attributes matter).

The base attributes add up to precisely 39.
The effective attributes at character creation add up to 45.

Those additional 6 effective (actually, it's 45.9 effective or +6.9 total but game displays rounded-down values only) have no significant long-term relevance... but the ones you get for engineer (or prospector) help you most in completing the rest of your (basic) learning skills faster.

To put it another way, if you pick Achura Monk +3p +2i, your base attributes are 12p, 10i, 8w, 6m and 3c regardless of school chosen.

If you pick special ops, you also get L4 iron will (+4w = 12w listed in character sheet) and L2 spatial awareness (+2p = 14p listed in charsheet).
If you pick engineer, you get L4 analytical mind (+4i = 14i listed) and L2 instant recall (+2m = 8m listed).
Either way, you can EASILY train L4 in each of instant recall, analytical mind, iron will and spatial awareness regardless of initial school chosen (the missing skills are dirt cheap and train quite fast), and then your listed effective attributes would be then 16p, 14i, 12w, 10m... again, doesn't matter which school you picked, as long as you train those skills to those levels.

In the REALLY long run (and if you plan to be playing for a long time), you will probably want to get all 6 basic learnings to L5 (maybe except empathy which you can leave at L4) and all 5 advanced learnings to L4 (again, except presence which you will probably leave at L3), also have at least Cybernetics L4 trained (if not even L5) and a set of +4 implants (or a set of +5s except charisma which you use a +4).
In that case, your Achura Monk +3p +2i will get an additional [+5(basic learning L5)+4(adv learning L4)+5(from +5 implant) ]*1.1(learning) to all attributes except charisma (where you will maybe get just +4+3+4 *1.1)...
...which will turn it into a 28.6p, 26.4i, 24.2w, 22.0m, 15.4c character (listed as 28p, 26i, 24w, 22m, 15c in-game)... again, REGARDLESS of initial chosen school.

Lavanya Leotie
Posted - 2008.12.16 07:25:00 - [222]
 

Akita thank you very much Smile
lots of helpfull info you have here SmileSmile
wish u a good one and look forward for ur other postings Wink
thousand thanks Smile

Eyrinia Vicor
Posted - 2008.12.20 07:46:00 - [223]
 

Hello there, thanks a ton for writing this, it is helping alot! Just a question though, just came back to EVE, made a new char, these are my stats:

Caldari Archura Monk Soldier
Cha: 3.06, Int: 10.20, Per: 16.32, Mem. 6.12, Will: 10.20

Good start for a mission runner? I know I need some implants, but I just started her today. Any ship recommendations?

Thanks once again!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.20 14:59:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Eyrinia Vicor
Soldier Cha: 3.06, Int: 10.20, Per: 16.32, Mem. 6.12, Will: 10.20
Good start for a mission runner?

That means your base attributes are 12 Per, 10 Int, 6 mem, 8 Wil and 3 cha, which is pretty damned good attributes-wise for a mission-runner.

Now, the Soldier choice... decent, but still not so great for mission-running. Your two "big" skills (the two rank 1 L5s) are Gunery and Small Hybrid Turret, while the best mission boats are MISSILE boats. Ok, ok, missile skills are decent-ish too, Electronics 4 isn't bad at all, and engineering skills while nearly minimal are still halfway decent.
Granted, the Special Forces path isn't much better either, it's actually slightly worse, since you only get one (rank 2) L5 skill, that for missile flight time (sure, it's great LATER, but not so helpful early on), but even weaker missile damage related skills... at least you have all the prerequisites for Caldari Cruiser right from the start.
Personally, I'd rate "Engineer" as best mission-runner career starter school, with Soldier a distant second best, while Special Forces is the close-enough-to-second third best... assuming you have some cash to spend and don't mind a week or so of learnings. Reason ? Well, first off, you start with Shield Operation 5 and Shield Upgrades 4 (meaning you will be able to fit a decent passive tank from the word "go", and you only need to train the ship/weapon skills of your choice), alongside int/mem learning skills (which means the rest of your learning skills will go much faster) and Science 3 done so you can train Cybernetics 1 as first skill and plug in up to a +3 full set in half hour after character creation.
If you DON'T have any cash to spend, then I guess Soldier or SpecF is slightly more desirable, even if it leaves you with plenty of support skills to work on later on.

For ship recommandations, that's VERY easy.

L1 missions : no-tank Kestrel with Standard Missile Launchers
You may need fiting mods early on, but you can manage later without.
Keep at long range, pelt the enemy from a distance with Bloodclaws, if you do it right no NPC ever touches you as they die before they get in weapons range.

L2 missions : passive-tank Caracal with Assault Missile Launchers (launcher use Standard Missile skills)
The assault launchers will be delivering a noticeably higher total DPS compared to the Kestrel (applied quite nicely to pretty much all enemies encountered), but at longer ranges than in the Kestrel.
At the same time, the CPU/grid needs are quite small, so that leaves you with loads of room to play with in the mids, where you can shove two or even three large shield extenders alongside some hardeners, while in the lows you get the choice between more tank (shield power relays or power diagnostic systems) or more damage (ballistic controls).

L3 missions : passive-tank Drake with Heavy Missile Launchers
In a pinch, a HML Ferox will work on the easier L3s, but it's really not worth bothering for such a small increase in ship price (to a Drake) but heavily increased damage and tank potential.
You will fit your Drake pretty much the same way you used to fit your L2 Caracal, but you have a LOT more slots of all kinds, and can also field a full flight of 5 light drones (which you should train for ASAP, since heavy missiles at low missile support skills don't work that well against frigate NPCs).
What you get is basically a L2 Caracal with slightly longer range but vastly increased damage and tank potential.

L4 missions : depends
Some people (like me) prefer to take a Drake (or a Nighthawk later on) with high skills for the "lazy cruising" factor, other prefer to push fast towards the raw power of a Raven (or CNR, or Golem) and skip the battlecruiser class altogether (using a Raven hull for L3 missions too).
Pretty much the entire mission forum is dedicated to L4 missions, so I won't bother going into detail here Wink

Hope that helps.

Eyrinia Vicor
Posted - 2008.12.20 20:18:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Eyrinia Vicor on 20/12/2008 20:19:33
It does, quite alot :)

I think I am gonna go back and remake her with the choice you suggested and see how it goes. Remake is easy when you have only trained 2 skills and spent no money. Thanks a bunch.

Kiluna
Posted - 2009.01.09 12:14:00 - [226]
 

My current "main" is only 2 days old and i've been fooling with the game for little over 3 days. Upon finding this thread i've been wondering. Lets say i want to build up a good all-arounder based on 2 things: Missions (most seem to be releated to killing rats even for procpector) and mining.

Would a secial ops "gimp" my mining too much so that the frigate 4 head start with good combat skills wouldn't be worth of the time needed to wait for mining skills to be in acceptable level - even with attribute split towards faster mining training?

Or any suggestions if there is "better than others" carreer mix for equal mix of rat hunting / missions (which are mostly rat hunting) and mining?


I've been looking the ships in wiki and ingame market and i like Amarr and Gallente ships the most, currently i'm Caldari and the ships are ugly (which is why i'm considering a "reroll").

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.09 12:44:00 - [227]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 09/01/2009 12:51:04
__

First off, you'll be making a bit more ISK running missions than mining, assuming you can handle the missions... and with the SP count characters start nowadays, if you go with any of the military trainings of any race, you should be able to easily handle any L1 (and soon even some L2) missions IF you're a bit careful and read up on decent ship fits.

Now, you have to ask yourself... why would you want to (also) focus on mining ?
Is it because you want to be self-sufficient and build everything yourself ? Then don't really bother with mining skills, just focus on manufacture and reprocessing skills instead, there's huge amounts of things that can be bought cheap and reprocessed for minerals, or you can even buy minerals directly with ISK you make running missions.
Heck, other than ammo, you're better off buying things from the market in empire highsec, the price war is so fierce you'd end up paying more if you build anything else yourself. And out in 0.0, you have to be part of a larger group, and they should be able to supply you with anything you need.

That being said, probably you might enjoy mining for the sake of mining... not many people do, though. If you are one of the few, then having a fairly balanced attributes character won't hurt much, but a slight bit higher int/mem would be recommended (since the barge and exhumer skills are per/will skills, while the rest are either mem/int or int/mem).

__

Well, anyway, as a genuine newcomer, a spec ops career choice would actually be beneficial, since it would allow you to skip directly to cruisers and (after training a bit of connections) jump into L2 missions ASAP. Or, in case you want to go for mining, having L4 frigate and equipping 2 T1 mining lasers on a mining frigate would allow you to mine faster than with T2 lasers but only L2/L3 frigate.
Either way, you should be getting Mining 4 and Frigate 4 in a matter of days no matter what your initial career choice, so it doesn't really matter all that much - and again, other than mining barges, mining cruisers can have pretty decent mining yields (and they're relatively cheap too), so probably spec ops might also be a better choice for a true newcomer without any ISK in his pockets.

As for the race... well, sorry to sound like a broken record, but in sheer terms of versatility, nothing can beat Achura (any of the three are good, depending what your focus will be, you have a wide range of good custom attribute selections). The only minimal drawback would be low charisma, which can SLIGHTLY drag you back at the very start when training social skills (which you'll want to get sooner rather than later if you go mission-running), but seing how Social 3 and Connections 3 are not a huge SP investment, it doesn't really matter all that much in the long run.
Also, the Osprey is arguably one of the better mining cruisers, very easy to fit and tank with low skill levels, depending mostly on lasers for yield so you can delay training drones until later on. And the Caracal is a pretty awesome L2 mission-running boat, for similar reasons.


So... one of the better choices for you could be something like this:
Caldari Achura Stargazer, +2 per, +2 int, +1 mem, Military / Special Forces
That starts you off with 10 base per/int/mem, 6 base wil and 3 base cha, on top of +4 wil and +2 per from learnings
for an effective 12 per, 10 int, 10 mem, 10 wil, 3 cha starting attributes.

By no means is this the only possible choice, and probably not even the best (since I don't know exactly what you would want to do first), but it's certainly looking pretty good no matter what you'd try to do.
You can train any skill reasonably fast, you can train directly for a cruiser (well, you can't afford it yet, sadly), you should have no big problems getting all your basic learnings to L2/L3 fast as soon as you can afford them, and so on and so forth.

P.S. read this too

Kiluna
Posted - 2009.01.09 15:19:00 - [228]
 

I'm not that interested about mining - i like to do it from time to time, but not 100% hardcore all the time. That means i like to blow things up too :)

My current character is totally messed up (6 perception, 5 memory - or other way around = frigates 4 takes like 4 days and 12 hours to train...), but i don't like the Caldari look on ships and will try my best on getting as balanced attribute split in Amarr or Gallente.

One thing i was thinking:
Amarr / Khanid / Zealots / Egineer

This would give me 10 attribues in each and 5 charisma.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.09 15:45:00 - [229]
 

Just remember, BASE attributes are the only things that matter long-term, since you will get all learnings to the same levels eventually.
The +4/+2 you get early on from the school choice learning skills only matter very, VERY short term.

Kiluna
Posted - 2009.01.09 17:36:00 - [230]
 

Edited by: Kiluna on 09/01/2009 17:39:37
I've been thinking and thinking, and i've come in to the conclusion of:
1. Missions (prior)
2. Ratting
3. Maybe some mining in the far future (some months, maybe)

Would you still suggest that Caldari special force for this? Or would soldier be better? I would ofcourse prefer Gellente and Amarr looks on the ships, but since Caldari seem to focus on shields more (i believe they go always down first?)..

Or lets repharse all of the above:
How would you build up a character for missions/rat killing, if you knew all the things you do now, but it would be your one and only (main with little to no money) character? :)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.09 19:11:00 - [231]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 09/01/2009 19:14:43

Missileboats are easiest to handle missions with at low skillpoint count.
Kestrel is an good L1 mission boat.
Caracal is an even better L2 mission ship.
Drake is an excellent L3 mission craft, and with enough skills it can even handle L4s.
All of the above are particularly great against Guristas NPCs, the NPCs you are most likely to fly against in Caldari agent given missions.
Raven is a so-so L3 mission boat, and still one of the best overall performance L4 mission ship.

All Caldari ships work best with a shield-tank, be it active or passive, with the Caracal and the Drake being quite awesome passive shield tankers for their respective mission levels (L2 and L3, respectively). Raven works best with an active tank (pulsing the booster on/off as needed), while the Kestrel works best with a "range tank" (stay out of enemy range and kill them before they get a chance to approach).

Yeah... shields do go down first... but with the proper fit and a litle bit of care, you should never get below 30% full shields Wink
Also, while armor tanks are overall slightly more effective, they have a pretty heavy delay (armor repairers only repair the damaged armor at the END of a rather long cycle... or, at least it feels that way when under heavy fire).
Comparatively, shield boosters will repair shields the moment you activate them (at the start of their cycle), and also shield recharge slowly all the time. A "passive shield tank" fit doesn't even have a shield booster, just a huge shield with a high recharge rate (obtained by fiting modules that increase shield buffer and others that reduce recharge time), and on a couple of choice ships, it can far surpass any other tanking method for PvE work (against NPCs).


Now, that being said, Amarr ships also make great mission runners, BUT they require far more substantial skillpoint counts to work properly, and they truly shine only against a certain range of enemy NPCs (thankfully, Amarr agents will send you against those types most of the time, namely Blood Raiders and Sanshas, with a few Rogue Drones now and then... but sadly, you also get sent against some you are also weakest against, both in terms of firepower and weakest tank against, namely Angels).

While the start is much more easily rewarding as a Caldari missileboat missionrunner, in the long run you might want to also crosstrain to Amarr, lasers and armor tanks.
The really good news however is that there's an added advantage (much, much later on, when you're a bit wealthier) to crosstraining Caldari and Amarr, shields and lasers - the Sansha pirate faction has some pretty good ships (not cheap at all, but quite impressive) that use exactly those types of systems... and also, there are some T2 Amarr ships (of Khanid design) that use missiles rather than lasers (they can use both, but the bonuses on the ship are more missile-oriented).


You know you're not limited to flying your own race's ships, don't you ? Wink
Given enough time, you can fly every ship in the game and use any weapon and module you want on the same character.
Other than initial attributes and skills, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from, say, taking a fresh Amarr Engineer alt and training him in Gallente droneboats from the very start (actually, most Amarr Engineer skills fit remarkably well with what's needed later on for a Gallente droneboat pilot).
Speaking of Gallente droneboats, the Vexor is also an above-average L2 missionrunner... and the Gallente - Special Forces skillset is quite handy in serving you most of the "must have" skills to fly it (you can start training for Gallente Cruiser from creation, and you also have Drones 5 so you can fully utilize its drone complement as soon as you get into one).

Minmatar, again, Special Forces have a gold nugget in the form of the Rifter for L1 missions, and the Stabber (well, not so great but works) for L2s. Might not be easy to fly at first, but they're quite fun once you get used.

Kiluna
Posted - 2009.01.09 22:06:00 - [232]
 

Edited by: Kiluna on 09/01/2009 22:08:48
Nice thanks for your reply's! :)

If i may bomb you with one more question:
Which is fastest / most effective way for Starter Ship -> Osprey -> Covetor? (and being able to play while skilling)

High int/mem special forses ? High per/wil prospector? Or something other?

edit:
To be more clear, it would be a pure PvE / mining / non-combat (unless mining missions require some killing) character.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.10 10:55:00 - [233]
 

The profitable mission-running does involve killing NPCs... lots of it Laughing
For mining, it's Bantam -> Osprey -> Retreiver -> Covetor -> Hulk
For mission-running, it's either Kestrel -> Caracal -> Drake -> Nighthawk or Kestrel -> Caracal -> Raven -> Golem (or you can do both Drake and Raven then pick one).

Mining skills that depend on mem/int are easily maxed out (or brought up to a near-maxed level), so all the remaining skills are pretty much common to the combat skillset.
The refining/industry/science skillset is quite heavy, but only if you plan on going into T2 invention/manufacture, otherwise it's quite short too.

As long as you keep base charisma as low as possible, and int/mem/per at least at a base 8 or preferably 9, you're good to go.
Again, base numbers do not include the +4/+2 from learnings granted by the starter school skillset.

Ghankis Khanid
Posted - 2009.01.10 12:51:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: Ghankis Khanid on 10/01/2009 13:17:01
Dear new players,

Don't be sucked in to achura noobishness. This thread is evil and sets you up to be a gimped character in the long run. Low charisma is going to bite achura min/maxers in the ass one of these days.

Also, for a truly long term character, whether you want to cross train multiple races or get into capships, you will want higher per/will than int/mem. Reason: you only have to train a support skill once. Yes, "balanced attributes" make it seem easier in the beginning, but once your electronics/engineering/mechanic stuff is trained, it's.. well, trained.

The big SP skills are in gunnery, missile, and spaceship command T2 stuff. I will also personally man-slap (it's like a bitch slap that you can live with) anyone who gets into a non-dreadnought capital ship without 6 million+ sp in leadership.

Now then. Best combat characters would be, in no particular order:

Amarr Khanid Cyberknight, +3 mem +1 per +1 int
Minmatar Brutor Slavechild, +2 int, +2 mem, +1 per for overkill goodness.
Minmatar Sebiestor something can make a good combo too, but now I'm getting lazy.

Also to note, that for a mission running character, it's hard to beat the starting skills you get with the minmatar business entrepreneur skillset. The fact you can also be a brutor is great, and you don't feel obligated to train minmatar ships if you don't want to since you only start with frig 1 and small projectile 1

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.10 16:19:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Ghankis Khanid
This thread is evil and sets you up to be a gimped character in the long run.
Low charisma is going to bite achura min/maxers in the ass one of these days.

Considering how the skill system is set up, there would have to be a LOT of very useful charisma-main skills introduced into the game that have a major impact to gameplay to even BEGIN to inconvenience a low charisma player.
In other words "not bloodly likely".

Quote:
Also, for a truly long term character, whether you want to cross train multiple races or get into capships, you will want higher per/will than int/mem. Reason: you only have to train a support skill once. Yes, "balanced attributes" make it seem easier in the beginning, but once your electronics/engineering/mechanic stuff is trained, it's.. well, trained.
The big SP skills are in gunnery, missile, and spaceship command T2 stuff.

Considering the average EVE player age is well under 1 year old, you could actually spend your entire EVE career training almost exclusively support skills.
Yes, if you already know what you're doing, and that thing you know is "heavy combat", then sure, PER all the way, and WIL can't hurt. But how many players do that ? A very tiny percentage of the total population.
And besides, if you specialize in a single type of ships... if you sum up ALL useful skills, you will notice that a vast majority are not in spaceship command (which are actually the LEAST numerous) but in various support skills, with the weapon skills on the second place.

Quote:
I will also personally man-slap (it's like a bitch slap that you can live with) anyone who gets into a non-dreadnought capital ship without 6 million+ sp in leadership.

6 mil SP in leadership is way overkill, and nearly a waste since all you need is ONE single person with those skills in the chain of command to get all relevant bonuses.
Now, in a 100-man strong capital fleet (with half of them carrier pilots) with over 100 support craft... what the bloody hell are those 6 mil leadership skills each carrier pilot is supposed to have good for ? Yeah, precisely zilch.
Sure, it never hurts to have ONE of the warfare spec skills at 5 so you can have the appropriate mindlink plugged in, but other than that, it's pretty pointless.

Quote:
Now then. Best combat characters would be, in no particular order:
Amarr Khanid Cyberknight, +3 mem +1 per +1 int
Minmatar Brutor Slavechild, +2 int, +2 mem, +1 per for overkill goodness.
Minmatar Sebiestor something can make a good combo too, but now I'm getting lazy.

It's funny how you tout the overkill supposed usefulness of per/wil over everything else and chastize people with low charisma, while at the same time NOT spening your custom attributes as +3 per, +2 wil.
The only obvious concusion is that not even you consider charisma worth having all that much, and per/wil not all that important afterall.

Like "this evil thread" says again and again, it's never a clear cut case what exactly would be best, unless you can give a specific set of skills you want to have the soonest, and only then can you compute a "best". If you alter just one skill or skill level, that "best" could be a different initial choice.


Quote:
Also to note, that for a mission running character, it's hard to beat the starting skills you get with the minmatar business entrepreneur skillset. The fact you can also be a brutor is great, and you don't feel obligated to train minmatar ships if you don't want to since you only start with frig 1 and small projectile 1

Please take your time to explain what's so great about this skillset that would make you want to pick it for mission-running.
The only two really useful skills for a mission-runner I see are Social and Negotiations, and they're just L3.

Ghankis Khanid
Posted - 2009.01.11 00:31:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Akita T
stuff



Dear carebear,

You are angry. I win the internets.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.11 05:48:00 - [237]
 

I am permanently angry. I vent my anger in a constructive manner in the forums. I win at life. You can keep the internets you won, I'll just make more.

Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Minmatar
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
Posted - 2009.01.11 13:19:00 - [238]
 

Despite the before last post this thread deserves a sticky...

Joh Lan
MIAPICSA
Posted - 2009.01.11 16:04:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 15/12/2008 11:31:54

My personal favs for heavy PvP/PvE focus would be (in this order)

#1 Caldari Achura Monk with +3 per +2 int for all-round goodness
= 12 per, 10 int, 8 wil, 6 mem, 3 cha
or
#2 Amarr Khanid Cyberknight +3 int +2 mem for a relatively balanced setup, more meaty on the support side rather than a lot of cross-training or shorter-term benefits (like #4)
= 11 per, 9 int, 8 wil, 6 mem, 5 cha
or
#3 Caldari Achura Stargazer with +3 per +2 int for slightly more focus on support skills (especially drones)
= 11 per, 10 int, 6 wil, 9 mem, 3 cha
or
#4 Amarr Khanid Cyberknight +3 per +2 int for heavily cross-training focused, very long-term oriented
= 14 per, 8 int, 8 wil, 4 mem, 5 cha



I totally agree with this.
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 15/12/2008 11:31:54
... for all three options, pick Engineer



However I really disagree with this. People usually start to play this to blow stuff up. I really can't imagine why anyone would pick anything else than military for the first character. Creating specialized alts is another thing.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.01.11 16:37:00 - [240]
 

Yeah, that was the listing for combat-focused alts... it assumes you have the money to plug in +3 implants ASAP, and engineer is closest to the needed skill (and also has a nice and useful starting skill spread).
For the genuine new players interested in combat however, indeed, I also recommend a special forces or in some cases a soldier starter career choice.


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