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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.30 16:52:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/07/2008 16:53:19
Originally by: Scronix Empyrion
I picked a gallente, gallente miner for manufacturing, invention, mining and drones. How badly screwded am i? :(
Rerolling isn't really an answer first character and maxed a great deal of skills (including learning skills) already.

Well, you can't have less than 8 in both memory and perception, so you're decent enough on drones and industry.
The only nasty part is that you can't have below 8 charisma, so at least one of your other attributes is slightly below average, or probably significantly below average.
About invention and such, it would depend how much additional points you spent on intelligence (hopefully the max 3).

As for "being screwed"... well, if you mananaged to get to a point where "rerolling's not worth it", you can't possibly say you're actually screwed, now can you ?
I mean, if you'd actually be screwed (like, say, wanting to be a combat pilot and picking Intaki Reborn with +3 cha and +2 mem), you would consider a reroll even at 5-10 mil SP, wouldn't you ?
Wink

Engwish
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:28:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Engwish on 30/07/2008 22:29:37
Thanks so much for your insightful & detailed analysis Akita, I am formulating a detailed plan right now in Evemon. Like I said, I want to make the most possible use of the 2 week trial that I can. Therefore, I am generating the plan and laying out the logistics of it (getting books and implants in place) prior to creating the new account. I'll let you know how it turns out!

Thanks for the awesome advice! YARRRR!!

ps: This is by far the best guide I've read in any game I've ever played, thanks so much for your hard work!

Scronix Empyrion
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:51:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 30/07/2008 16:53:19
Originally by: Scronix Empyrion
I picked a gallente, gallente miner for manufacturing, invention, mining and drones. How badly screwded am i? :(
Rerolling isn't really an answer first character and maxed a great deal of skills (including learning skills) already.

Well, you can't have less than 8 in both memory and perception, so you're decent enough on drones and industry.
The only nasty part is that you can't have below 8 charisma, so at least one of your other attributes is slightly below average, or probably significantly below average.
About invention and such, it would depend how much additional points you spent on intelligence (hopefully the max 3).

As for "being screwed"... well, if you mananaged to get to a point where "rerolling's not worth it", you can't possibly say you're actually screwed, now can you ?
I mean, if you'd actually be screwed (like, say, wanting to be a combat pilot and picking Intaki Reborn with +3 cha and +2 mem), you would consider a reroll even at 5-10 mil SP, wouldn't you ?
Wink



True enough,

I'm guessing i'll have to do something with that social attribute, guess it should help somewhere.
My main issue is the rather low willpower for Ship skills this bugs me a bit.

But good to know i'm not that bad off, just average and will probably just have to spent more time learning.

Thanks


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.31 17:14:00 - [184]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 31/07/2008 17:15:20

Well, I do have a base 3 perception, 7 willpower, 7 memory, 9 int and 13 cha pilot in my corp, and he's already at nearly 44 mil SP (out of which nearly 8 mil are in leadership, but over 8 mil in spaceship command and over 4 mil in learning).
Since he doesn't play actively all that much lately (baby kid, nasty work hours, etc) he really doesn't care how slow skill training is Laughing
But when he DOES play, the siege or skirmish mindlinks (he can use both - of course can only use one at a time, usually siege for PvE and skirmish for PvP situations), especially when used when flying a command ship are a godsend to whoever's ganged up with him.

So, yeah, even with the LOUSIEST possible base attributes, thanks to the learning skills and the implants, the "final" speed difference in training skills isn't all that crippling... so if you have just the least bit of patience, you get wherever you want anyway, eventually.

Megrim
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:30:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: Megrim on 03/08/2008 01:52:16
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 31/07/2008 17:15:20
So, yeah, even with the LOUSIEST possible base attributes, you get wherever you want anyway, eventually.



Three years ago I chose to become an Intaki Diplomat, and then proceeded to put those few extra points into Int and.....Cha -_-
So "eventually" is right!. For about the first two years I was continually frustrated, though it should be said that as of late I've rather come to enjoy my high charisma.
Now that learning and implants have worked their magic, it's not so terrible. And high charisma has allowed me to find 'niche' roles that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to explore.
While obviously not a good choice by any real definition, I just wanted to say that as someone who made a pretty terrible selection before I knew any better, I've rather come to love my little gimped Intaki. ^_^

Vherokior Vixen
Posted - 2008.08.09 01:34:00 - [186]
 

Hello Akita, I love your guides, and admire your selfless, hard work.

I want to create a character with the following goals in order of priority:

- Maxxed out trading skills (minus Corporation Contracting). They do not have to be completely maxxed before I begin ship training however.

- Industrials, Transport Ships, Freighters, Jump Freighters, in that order.

I was thinking of taking learning skills to lvl 4 rank 1 and lvl 3 rank 3, but I'm not very good at the math to figure out if it would be better to do the typical learning training (5/4). With that in mind... once the above goals are met, I will probably discontinue training, and transfer the character to my main account.

I was wondering if you could recommend an effecient starter pack & attribute point distribution to get me on my way. I like the Vheriokor females because they are dead sexy, and have a great head start to trade skills, but Gallente Gallente could be a better option, due to their generally better ships of the type I am interested in flying. Any wisdom you could divulge would be greatly appreciated! Thanks so much!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.09 22:51:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 09/08/2008 22:56:52

Well, depends what you mean by "maxing out trading skills".
If by that you mean just Retail 4, Accounting 4 and Broker Relations 4, that's trivial regardless of path chosen, ESPECIALLY if you plan on going with ship skills afterwards.
If you mean stuff like Tycoon 4, Accounting 5, Broker Relations 5, Connections/Diplomacy 5 and a lot ofother ship/support skills, then it starts getting complicated.

I'd suggest making a clear skillplan (your goal, including trade skills AND what you consider would be acceptable ship/support skills), then entering it all into EVE-HQ to determine the best starter character combo and custom skill points.
Afterwards, get that character into EVE-MON and enter the very same skill plan, and that the "suggested" learning skills.

This way you will get the optimal path to your desired goal.
Of course, the initial best choice and learning path you should take differ depending on the exact skill levels you set as a goal... add some levels to a skill, a different initial combo might be slightly better... get some off, again, different.
ESPECIALLY if you include any L5 skills that are NOT of the same primary attribute.
For instance, you might want L5 freighter and L5 jump freighters but not Tycoon at all (happy with Retail 4 for instance), or you might only want L4 freighter, L4 JF but Tycoon 5... HUGE differences.


P.S. If you don't know how to use any of them, you could just list the skills you have in mind, with alternatives on what you would consider ok//desirable, and I will run them for you.
Also, I'd suggest getting and learning how to use those two programs anyway, they help a lot with planning.

Twarda Sztuka
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:46:00 - [188]
 

I'm not sure, how did you get your formula. My approach was very simple. I added the rank for all primary attributes and half of the rank for all secondary. So currently for all attributes following numbers were results:

P: 703.5
I: 603
M: 481.5
W: 450.5
C: 142

Of course it is with assumption that someone wants to learn all skills. It is much more feasible to choose only skills you want to use (for example learning all four titan skills might be too ambitious). If you decide to learn ships and weapon systems just for one race, then Inteligence becames most usefull and Preception drops to second place.

Still Caldari Achura Inventors is the best race, even if they tend to look like mixture of sick vampire and annoying clerk.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.11 13:12:00 - [189]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 11/08/2008 14:01:24

Originally by: Twarda Sztuka
I'm not sure, how did you get your formula. My approach was very simple. I added the rank for all primary attributes and half of the rank for all secondary. P: 703.5 / I: 603 / M: 481.5 / W: 450.5 / C: 142

Pretty similar idea, but I only considered several typical "jobs" and what skillsets you'd like to have somewhere down the road in about 4 years or thereabouts, averaged them all and then rounded the coefficients. That's the first part of the formula.
Second part, it's again an averaged and then coefficient-rounded formula, but this time for short-term plans (around half a year) and I decided (out of no particular good reason other than getting a larger spread) to normalize it against neutral willpower by substracting its rounded coefficient.
I used multiplication because I wanted a "geometric average" between long-term and short-term results. I could have also done a SQRT before the final part, but it wouldn't have changed the order, just the magnitudes.
The final part is just the final normalization to get numbers between 10 and 0 as results.
If you used the simpler formula of 703*p+603*i+481*m+450*w+142*c and normalize it again in the 10 to 0 range, you will get very similar rankings too... but they would be much more long-term-plan focused rather than also reflecting the importance of shorter plans.
Of course, I could have also done the exact same thing I did in the start, but this time added say, 12, 13 or even 14 then multiplied it all with 1.08 or even 1.1 and used your simple formula instead, then it would really be about long-term plans (with heavy learning/implants too) only... but then the scaling factors would have to be huge (i.e. very clustered results).


P.S. Like I've said many times before, in here and in other places too, what I tried to get was a classification by versatility, not the optimal build for a specific job.
In other words, a "if you don't know yet what you'll want to be or do in the game, you really CAN'T go too wrong with those higher up on the list".
So, not so much a "best you can pick for a job" but rather "least bad regardless of job".

For that (best choice for a job), you just get EVE-HQ, plug in your desired skillset, and let the program spit out the ideal race/bloodline/specialisation with all the custom attributes set for maximal effectiveness.


P.P.S. Added a few more details (and example) about EVE-HQ.

Vessper
Indicium Technologies
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.13 12:04:00 - [190]
 

Hi Akita - thanks for the app plug (and nice thread by the way) Very Happy

I just noticed your little write-up and wanted to point out that with effect from version 1.7.0 of EveHQ, I've altered the "Allow Attribute Variations" checkbox. Instead of this, I have provided a drop down box that allows you to select one of the following:

"Even Spread": Same as having the Allow Attribute Variations unticked
"Long Optimal": Same as having the Allow Attribute Variations ticked
"Quick Optimal": This is a new option that I'll explain below.

The new Quick Optimal is an attempt to shorten the length of time taken to find your optimal character. You and I both know that for long skill plans, this can take an age so some improvement was definitely needed Wink

How it works is that prior to cycling through the available characters, it works out the split of skillpoints in your skill list across the various attributes. It then assigns 3 points to the attribute with the highest number of skillpoints and 2 points to the next highest. What this means is that it isn't cycling attributes and only 1 cycle is required per starting character rather than 21. In theory, it should take the same amount of time as using the "Even Spread" method (but with improved/identical results) which is a 95% decrease in time over the old optimal method.

Seems to work great for me but If you get chance to try it yourself, I'd appreciate any feedback.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.13 14:14:00 - [191]
 


Well, the first thing that come to mind as possible improvement... the means to shorten the sorting time RADICALLY by pre-calculating attribute breakdowns in skills.

First, you compute the full skill list (no learnings), a pre-search breakdown of all skillpoints totals (including hidden prerequisites) according to attribute pairs (there's not that many pairs, actually), dynamically updated as skills are added/removed/modified.
Since this is a trivial matter for each skill, it shouldn't take long at all at each update (just make sure you don't miss any proper updates).
Heck, just add all prerequisites to the displayed list automatically, to make things simpler (and mark them with a slightly different colour so people know it's a prerequisite - attempting to remove or lower below acceptable level will warn about prerequisite violations).


If you KNOW exactly how many SP in each main/secondary attribute pair you have, it is much easier to compute how long will it take to finish it all in just a couple of steps, instead of going through the whole ordeal of calculating individual skill times for each set.
For instance, if you know you only have 256k SP INT main and MEM secondary, the average training speed is trivial, (INT*2+MEM) per minute, or a training time of 256k / (INT*2+MEM).
If you also have another 512k SP with INT main but with PER secondary, it gets a bit more complicated, but still solvable.
you get (in minutes) 256k / (INT*2+MEM) + 512k / (INT*2+PER).

All you need to do is add together Sum_of_SP_in_Pair / (Main*2+Secondary) to get the total minutes (and from there it's trivial).
Heck, you could probably get it to such a speed, that the bottom breakdowns (STD Queue time) could even be updated in REAL TIME as you add/remove skills.
While you're at it, you could allow saving/loading of the current skillplan to a (text or XML) file... which would include the SP totals per pair type too, so when you load you don't have to worry about lengthy calculations.


Now the only challenge will be to optimize the learning skills in the exact same way... it might prove to be a bit more problematic, but I'll try to think of a good way to make the optimizations... might take a while, so heck, maybe just "force" people to add learning skills manually ?
Even this way it could prove tricky, like I said, I'll think about it some more. Worst case scenario, you have to do the learnings part "the old fashioned way" entirely, but I hope I can shunt/simplify that somehow too.

You could have a similar feature as the EVE-MON "suggest" button, but centered around 8/8/8/8/7(cha) base attributes... not the ideal learning path for all options, but close enough (at most it might be one level of a couple of learnings off), and call it "approximate optimal queue time".
But also calculate the "ACTUAL optimal queue time", however on demand only (right clicking on selected character in the bottom section), and do this calculation "the old fashioned way".


Ok, ANOTHER set of improvements would be to allow "adding implants" to the skill queue, provided you made the learnings already mandatory (user can ignore the "average recommended learning path" and customize it himself).
All learnings and certain level of cybernetics (1, 4 or 5, depending on implants selected for use) plus Science III before Cybernetics 1 will take the "front seat" automatically compared to the other skills (expecting confirmation from user if any is dragged "outside" those boundaries), but you could "juggle" with the implant plugins (and corresponding minimal cybernetics/sci-3 levels just before that) up and down the list of learnings with no warnings at all.
So, for instance, now you would have a +3 int and +3 mem plugged in shortly after character creation, with a full set of +4s or even directly +5s somewhere close to the end of INT/MEM attribute boosting skills bit before the rest.

And so on and so forth WinkLaughing

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.13 14:20:00 - [192]
 

Oh, and how could I forget... add a FOURTH option to your "custom attributes" choice... namely "manual custom attributes".

Also, for the "quick optimal" custom attributes option, that would be better decided by just looking at the SP totals in each pair, picking the one that maximizes gains (again, when you have all SP totals in each pair already computed, it's very easy to calculate the overall best option).

Vessper
Indicium Technologies
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.13 18:38:00 - [193]
 

It's not a problem to add a 4th option into the method of calculation and what you've suggested is very straightforward. As for the current "Quick Optimal" method, I think I may have oversimplified the explanation. What actually happens during the calculation of the best attribute, is that it awards 2 points to the attribute that is primary and 1 point if it's secondary. It then assigns the top attribute the bonus 3 points and the second 2 points. These calculations are computed before the main cycle begins.

When you talk about an attribute pair, I assume you mean that if Perc/Will is the combination with the highest allocation of skill points in the list, then 3 points go to Perc and 2 go to Will? If not, care to elaborate a little? If so, then that's not as accurate as the method I'm currently using (and as it's pre-computed anyway, there's no performance gains to be had in this respect).

I can see how using your equation would speed things up dramatically. However, this would be at the expense of any skills already trained on the starter character. Over a long skill plan, this probably won't make much of a difference but on the shorter ones, a few days variation can be a big difference. It should be possibly to merge the starting skills with the skill list to create a final list for calculating the skill point allocation. This would make the calculations significantly quicker (as you won't have to calculate a "proper" skill queue), but it still needs to be done on a per character basis. When I get chance, I'll look into your suggestions in conjunction with the code to see how viable they actually are.

I do like the idea of adding implants and the relevant science skills into the training queue calculations and optimisation routines. In fact, I've had this on my to-do list for the last couple of months - just been too busy with other stuff to get round to it Wink

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.13 19:38:00 - [194]
 

Right... I completely forgot to also take into account the already existing 24 starter skillsets, it could get a bit tricky to do it all in real-time.

Ok, example breakdown time Laughing
First, the (hopefully optimized) "standard queue" search.



1. You start with a blank "search".

2. Now, you have to maintain in memory 24 separate/individual skillplans, one for each starter race(4)/career(6) skillset, and for each of them, you also have to hold into memory the 20 different attribute pair skillpoint totals. At the start, all skill plans contain the already trained skills (marked hidden, or completed, or whatnot), but all pair totals are zero.
NOTE: I say 20 different attribute pairs, but I am fairly certain there is no CHA(main)|PER(secondary) skill in the game yet... but considering all 20 possible pairs allows for extension if one such skill was ever created.

3. Now, your user adds a certain desired skill, like, say, for instance "Assault Ships" (to level 1, default).
A lot of things get updated now instantly : for each of the 24 race/career combos, you see what extra levels of skills need to be added.

For instance, Amarr/Engineer only needs Spaceship Command II->V, then directly Assault Ships I.
You add those skills in that particular order to the Amarr/Engineer skillplan (I suppose it's a simple skill ID / skill level list).
Then, also for the "Amarr/Engineer" plan, you add 255750 SP to the PER|WIL attribute pair total (SC2->5), then you add 1000 SP to the WIL|PER attribute pair total (AS1). All the other 18 pair totals are still zero.

For another combo, like, say Caldari/Soldier, you need Mechanic I->V, Engineering IV and V, Spaceship Command V then finally Assault Ships I. You add all those skills to the Caldari/Soldier skillplan.
Then, for the same "Caldari/Soldier" skillplan, you add 256000 to the INT|MEM pair (for all 5 levels of Mechanic), you add another 248000 to the INT|MEM pair (for Engineering 4 and 5) for a grand total of 504000 in INT|MEM, you add 255750 to PER|WIL and finally 1000 to WIL|PER. The other 17 pair totals are still zero.

You do the same with each of the 24 total race/career choices, see what skill levels they still miss, adding them to the corresponding plan, and adding to the total SP needed in the appropriate MAIN|SECONDARY total counter.

4. If you ever add or remove a skill from the "master plan", all other 24 sub-plans and the corresponding attribute pair totals get adjusted up and down as you add or remove skill levels. I *suspect* this shouldn't take too long.

5. Now, you have for each of the 24 "main types" the exact amount of SP needed in each attribute pairing.

In order to speedily compute the training time for any particular bloodline/ancestry/career choice (now a total of 216 possible choices), you just do :
SUM [ selection (Total SP counter in MAIN|SECONDARY) / selection (MAIN*2 + SECONDARY) ]
(the sum of all 20 possible SP counters, even if most might be zero) to get the total minutes needed for the skillplan to finish.
The total SP counters sets (sets of 20 values) are one of the 24 pre-computed sets (corresponding to race/career individual skillplan), and the values for the main/secondary attributes are determined by the bloodline/ancestry tables (adjusted by custom skillpoint distribution).

Theoretically, this step shouldn't take very long either, but I may be overestimating computing power... I guess you know better if it's a significant improvement or not, enouh to make a real-time calculation possible or not just yet.


6. Selecting the "optimal" custom atribute spread (individualized for each bloodline/ancestry/career, not uniformized for all) should prove a bit more tricky (and only really matter for shorter skillplans anyway, for long plans, a single custom attribute selection should soon emerge as overall best, I suppose)... I can't yet think of an elegant way except brute-forcing it at this moment.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.13 19:46:00 - [195]
 

continued

What I mean by "brute forcing" would be computing for each of the 24 initial sets of 20 pairs (at least it's just 24 sets, not all 216) which of all possible combinations of custom attributes yields the maximum time saving.

In other words, do the same thing you did at step 5 (calculate training times), but only with the initial 24 race/career sets SP totals, using all valid combinations of 5 custom attribute points (I think there are quite many).
Whichever of those valid combinations yields the shortest training time for each of the 24 race/career sets, that is the optimal custom attribute spread for all 9 corresponding bloodline/ancestry combos.

Because this step MIGHT take a long while, I would probably suggest initially using the "even spread" (+1 to all) attributes for the point 5 "real-time" calculations, and adding an "optimize custom skillpoints" button which will recompute the 24 appropriate custom skillpoint distributions and apply them to the 24*9=216 total possible choices.

_____


Sorry if it still sounds a bit confusing Laughing

Vepock
Posted - 2008.08.13 19:52:00 - [196]
 

Akita!! I posted a thread with this but I thought maybe I would get more direct answers from you =) Can you help me out here?

Let me start off by saying that I am new to the game, a meer 5 days into it. I love the idea of being able to train skills while being offline because I have a rl and I believe EvE players most likely have more of a rl then any other MMO playerbase because of the dynamics of this game!

Anyway, I have done a TON of reading the last few days and gone through a couple character creations to find what I really what to accomplish in this game. I first found out that the market system is amazing. I have been involved in the markets of every game ive played and this is by far the best I have ever seen. So I made a Trader and that will be my main character. Primarily doing remote trading but developing a skillset to haul as well.

What I need help with is finding the best starting character with a couple end goals in mind. Since this will be a long term skill plan I am hoping to be fully operative in doing solo lvl 4 missions within 6 months. I would like to stick with Gallante and use a Mega or Dominix. 1.5-2years from now I would like my character to be fully functional in PvP. So a couple questions that I am looking for some help with.

1) Using Gallante, what should my starting attributes be? (Where do I distribute my 5 points, factions, etc?)

2) What supporting skills are important if I plan on using a Dominix/Megatron? I understand all the lines required for the ship, I dont understand the skills needed for upgrading hulls/equipment/repairing or weapons that are associated with the ship.

3) Will the Dominix/Megatron be sufficient for PvP down the road? What extra skills do I need to obtain to make me PvP ready?

Thank you in advance for all of the advice/info and I just want to send a shout out to Akita for the great advice in her thread and whoever created EvEMon!!!!

Vessper
Indicium Technologies
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.13 20:22:00 - [197]
 

I get where you're going with this and your explanations seems fine Very Happy

Consideration will still need to be given to the optimisation of the queue by adding learning skills (an area I'm not currently happy with but that's another story) but I'll have a play with the steps you outlined and see if this part at least is possible to do in real time.

Thanks for the feedback, it's much appreciated!


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.13 20:25:00 - [198]
 


Dominix can be a pretty impressive mission ship compared to its pricetag, but you need some heavy-duty drone training done on it. Gunboats (like the Megathron) are a bit trickier (and much more SP-intensive) to properly master for mission-running, so I'm not quite sure "level 4 ready" in half a year is realistic for a gunboat... for a Dominix however, it might be more than enough.

While normally I would say to take it slow, in your case a forceful start into droneboats might be the better option, to give you an early feel of how they handle in missions... so I'd recommend to pick the Military - Special Ops career, which starts you off at the verge of training for Gallente Cruisers (Vexor is a very good L2 mission boat once you get used to it, and the next step up, the Myrmidon is quite good too, wether you even want to progress to Dominix or decide to go for Ishtar directly will be a choice for later), and with the initial ability to operate the (usual) maximum of 5 drones, also with a maximized drone speed (so you can recall them faster in case there's a problem, and reach their targets faster so you lose the least possible time between target switching).

Since you mentioned you also want to do a bit of trading on the side, a balanced attributes character would be your best bet... slightly lower charisma and willpower though, if at all possible (Gallente characters have generally pretty high charisma for my taste).
Hmmm... let's see... Gallente Jin-mei Saan-go seems like an almost perfect candidate. First, add +3 in perception (which brings the low base 6 up to a good 9), then it would be a good idea to add +1 to both int and mem (bringing them from slightly below average 7 to a slightly above average 8), leaving wil and cha to their base 7 values.


As for an initial skillplan... well... just follow your instincts. You will be pretty strapped for cash most of the time, and you should probably focus on getting yourself in a Vexor ASAP, while also training at least L2 in basic mem/int and some minimalistic additional tanking/support/drone skills... things like mechanic, repair system operation, hull upgrades, energy management, energy system operation, navigation, drone interfacing, combat drone operation, scout drone operation, electronics, engineering, science 3 + at least L1 in cybernetics (for a couple of cheap implants to boost your training speed), weapon upgrades, energy grid upgrades.
After you get at least a level or two in most of these mentioned here, and you already have several missions under your belt in a frigate for a certain corporation (any corporation, but make sure it's always the same, even if agent is different), you should start thinking about training Social 3 then Connections 2, purchasing a Vexor and trying out some low-quality L2 agents. Make sure you insure your ship, some L2s can be pretty nasty compared to L1s, and with barebones skills you could actually be in danger.

But I trust you'll get the hang of it eventually.

Vepock
Posted - 2008.08.13 20:51:00 - [199]
 

Thank you so much for your advice that was exactly what I was looking for. You even included a good L2 mission ship that I can use!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.25 13:17:00 - [200]
 

Anybody else got any more questions ? Wink

Zhi Long
Posted - 2008.09.08 02:45:00 - [201]
 

Yes miss!

I started off with a Jin-Mei, Special Forces character with:

Perception 11
Will Power 11
INT 8
MEM 8
CHA 7

Am I losing out much?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.09.09 02:39:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 09/09/2008 02:43:51
Originally by: Zhi Long
Jin-Mei, Special Forces
Perception 11
Will Power 11
INT 8
MEM 8
CHA 7

So your base attributes are per 9, int 8, mem 8, wil 7, cha 7.

It's not bad at all, and you couldn't have done much better anyway since all Gallente start with more than enough charisma.
Well, you could have done slightly better, but not much (it would depend on what path you wish to take later on)... you're ok like that, really, quite balanced overall, no significant weaknesess, but no particular strengths either (the 9 base per is a nice touch, though).

Zhen Chen
Posted - 2008.09.09 08:31:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: Zhen Chen on 09/09/2008 11:17:58
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 09/09/2008 02:43:51
Originally by: Zhi Long
Jin-Mei, Special Forces
Perception 11
Will Power 11
INT 8
MEM 8
CHA 7

So your base attributes are per 9, int 8, mem 8, wil 7, cha 7.

It's not bad at all, and you couldn't have done much better anyway since all Gallente start with more than enough charisma.
Well, you could have done slightly better, but not much (it would depend on what path you wish to take later on)... you're ok like that, really, quite balanced overall, no significant weaknesess, but no particular strengths either (the 9 base per is a nice touch, though).




Thanks Akita T, it's good to feel approved by one of so much experience and knowledge :)

I think personally I would like more INT, since I wish to learn a lot of engineering skills and eventually drive a black op ship and play a tackler and interceptor, but I didn't really want the Perception and WILL any lower, so that's the most I could get out of a Special Force Jei-Mei is to leave them (INT and MEM) at 8 each.

I think ideally I could make INT and MEM at 9 and 10 for Perception and Will, my excuse is that I have a roleplaying background( DnD and Neverwinter Nights) and I tend to make my character more dramatic, by pushing the features and weakness more exaggerated.

I hope that this does not leave me in a disadvantage intraining to become a black op/interceptor :)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.09.09 13:15:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Zhen Chen
Originally by: Akita T
So your base attributes are per 9, int 8, mem 8, wil 7, cha 7.

I think ideally I could make INT and MEM at 9 and 10 for Perception and Will
[...]
I hope that this does not leave me in a disadvantage intraining to become a black op/interceptor :)

First off, in order to get 10 per, 10 wil, 9 int and 9 mem, you would need to have a charisma base of 1, which is impossible... the lowest possible is 3, and if you want even remotely balanced attributes except charisma at minimum, you HAVE to go Caldari Achura.

Let's compare your desired (impossible to get) 10/10/9/9/1 character with the 9/7/8/8/7 you have.
You could actually get a 10per/10wil character, but NOT with 9int/9mem.

Assuming equal levels of learning skills and same implants plugged in all pilots, you're looking at most at a 264 SP/hour difference between the "impossible" character best skill training rate (10pri/10sec) and the worst (non-charisma 7pri/8sec) training rate of your current character... and those are not even the same skills !

Assuming similar attributes being used (so, for instance, spaceship command, most perc primary and wil secondary - 10/10 vs 9/7) and learning level 5, the training rate will only differ by a mere 165 SP/hour.

Considering the least amount of effort you're expected to put into a character's learning-enhancing abilities eventually (all L4 learning skills, L1 cybernetics, +3 implants), and again comparing typical spaceship command skills, that only comes out as 162 SP/hour speed difference, between 2041.2 SP/hour and 1879.2 SP/hour, in other words, a rather tolerable (aprox) -8% training speed rate .

Arcadrell
Posted - 2008.09.13 08:06:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 30/07/2008 09:04:24

Provided you are willing and able to plug in a set of +4s in, if you can convince yourself to also splurge a bit for a couple of +3s, and don't mind waiting for the alt to skill up in the early phase without using it for anything a good while... the character creation and skilling up plan would look like this:

Create as Khanid Cyberknight, +3 per, +2 int, Engineer training (Sci3/int4/mem2).
You get 14 per, 8 int, 8 wil, 4 mem, 5 cha, but effective 12 int and 6 mem from the starter learnings (plus 2% in each from learning L1).

Buy and train Cybernetics L1 and plug in +3 int and +3 mem implants.
That gets you 15.3 effective int and 9.18 effective mem in a matter of half an hour or thereabouts (almost 1010 SP/hour in mem primary, int secondary skills now).
Buy and train advanced intelligence to L2, then learning to L2, then basic memory L3, Learning L3, advanced mem L3, basic memory 4 and advanced memory up to L3 too, afterwards learning 4.
Proceed with cybernetics L4, and either destroy the +3 int/mem implants or (if you have a place where you can do that) train L1 infomorph psychology and backup those implants in the newly installed jumpclone (jump to it from a different station), afterwards plug in a full set of +4 implants (except charisma, here you can easily settle for a +3 implant if you want).

All of the above should take in the vicinity of a week or so IIRC (didn't re-calc it, but it's pretty damned close anyway), and you would be looking at 20.52 int and 16.2 mem effective (38102 SP/day in basic learnings, with only L4 basic and L3 advanced int/mem trained up).
It would be now a good idea to spend around 4 more days getting L4 advanced learnings, MAYBE (if you are really in no hurry for the combat skills) the extra two weeks for L5 basic int/mem and learning.
That would mean (at the end of little under one month for all of the above) you have 23.1 int and 18.7 mem effective (43560 SP/day in basic learnings).

Only AFTERWARDS even begin training basic per/wil/cha to L4 (optionally, even L5, yes, BEFORE you even touch the advanced per/wil/cha at all), and finally the advanced per/wil/cha to L4.
Actually, I'd stop at L4 basic and L3 advanced cha, but get L5 basic and L4 advanced per/wil.
This should take a bit over two weeks or so, or a bit over a month and a half total after character creation (if you skipped maxing out charisma).

Assuming you went with +3 cha implant and L4 basic / L3 advanced in cha, but the +4s and L5 basic / L4 advanced in all the rest, then, after those 45-50 days of waiting so far (like I said, didn't exactly re-calculate everything, so the time might be a couple of days off, but not much more), you'd be looking at something like this :

29.7 perception
23.1 intelligence
23.1 willpower
18.7 memory
16.5 charisma

Which is, IMHO, quite damned impressive for a char well under 2 months old Wink





/Kneel "we re not worthy! we re not worthy!"

btw I highly approve of a Amarr>khanid cyberknight w/ +3per +2int.

base of: 14p 8i 8w 4m 5c = insane attributies for a mission runner/pvp'er.

(your drone/learning/mineing skills will suck... deal with it! everything else will rock more or less Very Happy)

Mort Adella
Posted - 2008.09.23 23:51:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Mort Adella on 23/09/2008 23:56:10
Edited by: Mort Adella on 23/09/2008 23:54:30
I went for a Caldari Achura and I might have gone a bit to nuts on the int side while screwing some of my other stats up.

Given that I didn't really know what I'd be focusing on, I'm leaning towards combat.

My current stats (with full +1 implants and skills trained)

Int: 26 (5+4 trained, +1 implant)
Memory: 19 (5+4 trained, +1 implant)
Perception: 18 (4+4 trained, +1 implant)
Willpower: 13 (5+0, +1 implant) I just noticed while writing this that it seems I've forgotten to get the advanced version of the skill.
Charisma: 8 (4+0, +1 implant)

This basically puts my base stats at 16 int, 9 mem, 9 per, 7 wi, 3 ch.

Did I end up placing to much points into int while neglecting other stats? My guess is 11-133 int and some points into mem, per and will or a higher focus on per, and equal will to memory or so would have been better in the long run.

Don't question the learning skills by the way. I quit the game pretty soon after starting and just randomly put long-time learning skills (Learning itself is maxed out as well) on training in case I'd return to it. Laughing

Edit: A bit of an off-question. I'm planning on getting Amarr/Gallente ships trained later on as I enjoy the their styles and playstyles a bit more than Caldari ones. Except for having to train and specialize in all the different skills, are there any penalties for being Caldari when using them?

This is not any short-term goal anyway, It'll probably take a while before I even seriously consider it.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.09.24 04:52:00 - [207]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 24/09/2008 05:04:48

Originally by: Mort Adella
This basically puts my base stats at 16 int, 9 mem, 9 per, 7 wi, 3 ch.

Impossible. That's 44 total, you can only have 39.
You forgot to divide by the 1.1 "learning" skill bonus and you also forgot that the attributes display rounded-down instead of their actual values.
Your base stats are most likely 14 int, 8 mem, 8 per, 6 wil, 3 cha.
Which would mean Caldari Achura Inventor with +2 int, +2 mem and +1 per.

Your actual attributes right now are 26.4 INT, 19.8 MEM, 18.7 PER, 13.2 WIL and 8.8 CHA.

Quote:
Did I end up placing to much points into int while neglecting other stats? My guess is 11-133 int and some points into mem, per and will or a higher focus on per, and equal will to memory or so would have been better in the long run.


Look on the bright side : if you'd have picked some gallente and wanted to go "balanced", you might have ended up with 9 int, 8 mem, 8 per, 6 wil and 8 cha Laughing
So, in comparison, you're much better off (cha->int, everything else almost the same).

Well, mem and per are average, wil is slightly below average but really doesn't matter all that much, and you probably don't care about charisma anyway.
And no, huge INT never hurts... it's actually quite awesome for support skills (engineering/electronics/mechanic/navigation), which early on in a char's life you want to get a LOT of.

Sure, you could have gone a bit easy on the INT and pumped up PER a bit, but all in all it's not bad at all.
I'd recommend getting advanced wilpower to L4 and advanced charisma to L3... and since your int/mem is so high anyway, get basic perception to 5 too some time before you go seriously into ship training.

I'd also recommend getting a set of +3 implants ASAP (cybernetics 4 needed for the +4s by the way, but with that INT of yours, piece of cake eventually).
Or, if not a full +3 set, at least the PER one as high as possible first (they're really dirt cheap these days anyway).
Like I said, later on you might want some +4s too.

Money-saving "best bang for buck" combo IMO : +4 PER, +3 INT, +2 WIL, +2 MEM, +1 CHA
In the end you'll want all as high as possible, but I guess now you're saving ISK.



With the recommended additional learning skills and a set of +4 implants your real attributes would be:
29.7 INT, 23.1 PER, 23.1 MEM, 20.9 WIL, 16.5 CHA.

Same learnings but the "save-a-buck" implant set:
28.6 INT, 23.1 PER, 20.9 MEM, 18.7 WIL, 12.1 CHA.


Quote:
dit: A bit of an off-question. I'm planning on getting Amarr/Gallente ships trained later on as I enjoy the their styles and playstyles a bit more than Caldari ones. Except for having to train and specialize in all the different skills, are there any penalties for being Caldari when using them?

Nope, absolutely no penalties. Just skill levels matter, nothing else.

Mort Adella
Posted - 2008.09.24 08:31:00 - [208]
 

Thanks for the quick reply. Forgot to mention I was an inventor.

Given that while I said that I wanted to be more of a combat style player, electronic warfare is probably what I'll specialize in so a high int might turn out to be useful ^^

After writing the post yesterday it dawned on me that except for getting the willpower advanced version that I should get some better implants as well.

I'm planning on diving headlong into lowsec sooner or later but a set of +2/+3 implants is probably something I can still afford given how much it helps with training.

Thanks for the advice on what skills to train, I'll get on it.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.10.25 16:05:00 - [209]
 

Monthly keep-alive bump... anybody got any more questions ? Wink

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.11.26 03:56:00 - [210]
 

And another month has passed *wink* Wink


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