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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.09 23:50:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 09/06/2007 23:55:16
Originally by: Zhett Haukes
I wonder if I would maybe be better off using the "alt" as the "main" in the long run?
On the other hand, my current character's stats are relativly balanced... I just need to get rid of this niggle in the back of my mind saying "change before it's too late"


You're definetely not sebiestor trader, and the others are pretty high on the list.
To be honest, the overall attribute feel rather "right".
All you need it a bit more learning done (L4 basics and L3 advanceds IN ALL of them), and of course, a set of implants, +3s preferably, but some +2s will do fine too.

The alt (Achura monk seemingly, +2p, +1m, +1i, +1w ; mine is monk, +3m, +1i, +1w) obviously looks slightly better as a fighter or general purpose even, but it's going to be painfully annoying to train the social skills (not so many needed at high levels, but still, a L3 connections is almost mandatory) if you plan to go on a missionrunning career, and even more painfull for the leadership/trading skills. Oh, and drones won't be all that hot either... and you really want L5 drones as one of the first few L5 skills trained, for drone interfacing.

Overal verdict: both pretty good Cool

Zhett Haukes
Mutually Assured Distraction
Posted - 2007.06.10 08:37:00 - [32]
 

Sebestior Tinker is the main, and you are right on the alt.

Thanks for the vote of confidence and advice.

Toria Nynys
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.06.20 22:50:00 - [33]
 

As a specialized main I must agree with all the points in the OP.

1. Too much overspecialization will ruin your fun. Yes, you may get into that ship faster and be shooting bigger money targets faster, but so many things in the game will seem out of reach longer.

2. The versatility ratings are pretty dead on.

3. You'll never catch the 4 year old characters, so even the suboptimal toon can seem to 'catch up' if you take a break from EvE for a month and leave a long skill running. Rerolls FTL for any character older than a few days, except in the case of a character combo with maximal charisma.

4. Charisma is only important to a dedicated mission runner. Leadership is a rank 1 skill, and you can tough out training that to 5 on even the ugliest of Achura by the time you need it.

All that said, 10% is a huge amount. 'hours per day' translate into 'days per month', which translate into more rank 1 L4/L5 skills faster. With Achura you get 3 extra stat points. With a theoretical maximum of 33 for any one stat with +5 implants, that's a 6% advantage for int based skills worst case. It just gets better from there.

IMO the Achura Advantage shouldn't be glossed over lightly. I'm hoping more charisma-based stuff comes out in the future to make this dump stat valuable. I suspect when those skills do arrive they'll be for 'endgame' age characters, and thusly the disadvantage of low charisma out of the gate will remain minor.





Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.20 23:44:00 - [34]
 

One of my corpmates (the oldest living char in the corp) is an Intaki with 13 ?!?! base charisma (27.5 after skills and +3 implant). He used to be a miner (can fly Hulk, millions of SP in industry, etc).
We *cough* "convinced" him to go for a slightly more combatish role, and converted him to a siege mindlinked pilot.
We love the +15% maxshield and -21% to all shield resists bonus his battlecruiser can give us, especially since most of us are passive shieldtankers (I'm the one to blame for that) Wink

Senisran
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2007.06.23 17:34:00 - [35]
 

Not bad. I appreciate the time it takes to produce a guide like this for people, although I'm not sure there are parts I 100% agree with.

I think it may be misleading to say that "learning skills level the playing field pretty much" because while they do certainly level it a bit compared to the differences in your base attributes, in the end (we hope) everyone trains their learning skills. So if you're comparing training speeds to your fellow players, the only difference that will ever exist is the one that you put there with your base attributes.

Not to mention, the 20% difference figure you quoted, whether an estimate or not, is still something I'd consider significant. That's like having 2.4 months of free training per year (or losing it). Which is about 3m SP - the equivalent of a rank 12 skill to L5, or even better, a lot of extra support skills to 5.

I still wouldn't make my only decision based on that, but it's a significant factor. No matter what it's not a disaster and anyone will still have fun but we might as well help them make the best possible decisions?

One other thing I will leave with: A link to this thread. This has been my preferred reference on the case for different attribute spreads. It's light on the explanatory text, but I think the author does a fabulous job of designing a "skill basket" a middle-aged player would have, and then running analysis to see exactly which starting builds perform best.

Your chart doesn't give me the same "hard numbers" kind of feel because it's based on something you've extrapolated from the game while slightly brushing over the explanation. Don't miss post number 6 in the thread where the author details what kind of skill basket he used.

Overall thanks a lot for this, like I say, I always appreciate a guide where someone lays down some facts and then spends the time trying to explain to new players how to use them as well.

Nikolai Pierre
Posted - 2007.06.29 07:19:00 - [36]
 

I have created a two day old gallente character and just realized I want to specialize in long range gunning in he future, would you suggest I recreate since its only a few days old. This is not and alt, I just started paying EVE and I am loving it so far. What should I do?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.29 14:53:00 - [37]
 

As I said, at worst, you'll see a slower progress towards your goal.
Don't delete your old char, just stop training on it, and create a new char in one of your two remaining slots.
This way, if you ever change your mind, you'll still have "saved" two days of progress.

Seing how you are a really fresh char, and seing how most Gallente characters have preety lousy attributes compared to Achuras for instance (even Civire is better off most of the time), and because Caldari is the "long-range specialist" race (Gallente excels at close-range combat), it might indeed be a good idea to switch now rather than later.

A word of warning, in PvP, Caldari ships in particular (and most long-range weapons in general) only work properly in larger groups. Also, in PvE, missiles work generally better as long-range guns, and short-range guns are unadvisable due to the inability of using MWDs in almost every mission available.

Sleepy Coward
Posted - 2007.07.04 05:32:00 - [38]
 

so just started to play today. but have read forums for a little while. from the gist of what you say, the best char is the most average char with an unfavorable bias towards CHA. so i took your chart and figured out the most average guys you could possibly make with the 5 point distribution and this is what i got:

Race Bloodline Ancest PER INT MEM WIL CHA
Minmatar sebiestor rebel 8 8 8 8 7
Gallente jin-mei saan go 8 8 8 8 7

Caldari achura monk 9 8 8 8 6
Caldari civire entrep 9 8 8 8 6
Caldari achura stargaz 8 8 9 8 6
Caldari deteis tubech 8 8 8 9 6
Minmatar sebiestor rebel* 8 8 8 8 6
*floating 1 point to put anywhere, i havent put in

Caldari achura monk 9 9 8 8 5

Caldari achura monk 9 9 9 9 3
Caldari achura stargaz 9 9 9 9 3

Now i cant decide between the 8/8/8/8/7, 9/9/8/8/5 or 9/9/9/9/3 "average" guy.
Any tips on which way to lean?
i havnt played the game at all so i dont want to choose the guys with (1) 9 attributes because i dont know where that 9 should be. And i havnt really decided what path to take, all i know is i just want 1 guy so i want to be able to try different things equally on the same guy.

all these numbers aside though, i read that each race has ships which are better for different tactics (tanking/missiles/drones ...) but you can supposedly learn any skill?? how hard would it be for a caldari to learn gallente ship skills etc?

and another note, why cant they just make all the starting stats the same so i can just play the game and base my char on story line and looks instead of math. yeah, ignore this last question.

oh yeah thanks for the guide Very Happy

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.07.05 00:45:00 - [39]
 

If you don't really know what you'll do in the game, but you know that you're not really, really deep into trading and/or being a fleet commander, then pick the 9/9/9/9/3 one.
That's what I picked. I don't regret it, even if I trained some charisma-heavy skills.

If you have absolutely no idea what you will do in the game, I'd say pick the 9/9/8/8/5 one.
That should give you the most "overall decent" spread. There's really no good reason to get more charisma.

However, if those trade/leadership skills appeal to you, might want to pick the 8/8/8/8/7 one.
You might find yourself training a much more charisma-based skills as most people.
This is however a really, really, really rare occurence, and I don't think you'll want that.


As for skills... well, ALL racial skills train at identical speeds, because all have the same rank and same primary/secondary attribute. The only difference is that your starter skillpack might include several levels of the racial frigate pre-trained (if you select the military training option). But that's the only difference.
Almost the same with racial weapon skills. All three turret types have identical "leveling" schemes. Missiles are a bit different from turrets, slightly easier to "get into" but less potent later on (for PvP, that is... in PvE, missiles make the law right now).

Bo Bojangles
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.07.25 19:09:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Bo Bojangles on 25/07/2007 19:27:46
Thanks for the guide. Two months ago I broke down and started subscribing to EvE after trying it out on my 2-wk trial way back in October. I'm still playing the same toon and he's reached around 3mil SP now.

I've been training him for combat since starting back as I wanted to get enough skills to have some kind of minimum 'combat readiness' for life out in 0.0, but by pure happenchance when creating him, I ended up with a Minmatar Sebeistor Tinkerer, and though training these combat skills really seems to be a pain on this character, I found solace in your words when you found him to be the best suited for Industry, something that I do intended to do with him from the start, once I think I'm able to actually contribute to say a fleet op or roaming gang.

The only thing I didn't expect was how dizzy I seem to get when I have a bunch of huge asteroids twirling in front of me on the screen, that might be a problem for this type of character, Hmm,..re-roll? Laughing

But you mentioned something about being able to change your avatar? I've heard this before but I don't know how it's done. I was to understand that you could simply change your portrait itself, strike another pose so to speak, is there more to it than that? I'd like to explore this option if so. What needs to be done?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.07.25 19:46:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Bo Bojangles
I ended up with a Minmatar Sebeistor Tinkerer, and though training these combat skills really seems to be a pain on this character, I found solace in your words when you found him to be the best suited for Industry, something that I do intended to do with him from the start, once I think I'm able to actually contribute to say a fleet op or roaming gang.
The only thing I didn't expect was how dizzy I seem to get when I have a bunch of huge asteroids twirling in front of me on the screen, that might be a problem for this type of character, Hmm,..re-roll? Laughing
[...]
But you mentioned something about being able to change your avatar? I've heard this before but I don't know how it's done. I was to understand that you could simply change your portrait itself, strike another pose so to speak, is there more to it than that? I'd like to explore this option if so. What needs to be done?


Well, really depends how you placed your custom attributes... a +3 (or +2) perception and +2 (or +3) mem would have been optimal for an all-round char, IMHO.
As for the asteroids... it helps to zoom in at max and "look away" from the asteroid field Wink

Anyway, your learning skills should go relatively fast, so just get L4 all basics, then L4 all advanced, then train all basics you feel are "lacking" a bit to L5. Plug in a set of implants and you'll get a nice training speed.

Changing your avatar is relatively easy, BUT it costs 10 USD (or EUR) and can only be done if you use a credit/debit card, AFAIK.
You need an empty char slot on your account, create a new char with same bloodline and gender as the other, when you're done, you go in account management and select the "swap portrait" option.

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2007.07.25 22:19:00 - [42]
 

I wish I had seen this when I started. I might have still gone with Gallente Gallente Activist, but at least I would have known exactly what I was getting into. I liked the race and bloodline for RP reasons and thought it would be cool to be a FC. Maybe one of these days...

My corp mates do love me for my rapidly growing leadership skills (26 charisma FTW!). For now, I make lots of money & LP off mission running with maxed Social Skills and a few trade skills. I get the missions (more LP/ISK per person), and then boost them while we speed run them as a gang.

Still, attributes like this could be improved a great deal (with +4s):

Intelligence - 21
Perception - 22
Charisma - 26
Willpower - 18
Memory 18


Good thread, Akita T.

Bo Bojangles
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.07.25 23:33:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Well, really depends how you placed your custom attributes... a +3 (or +2) perception and +2 (or +3) mem would have been optimal for an all-round char, IMHO.
As for the asteroids... it helps to zoom in at max and "look away" from the asteroid field Wink

Anyway, your learning skills should go relatively fast, so just get L4 all basics, then L4 all advanced, then train all basics you feel are "lacking" a bit to L5. Plug in a set of implants and you'll get a nice training speed.


Thanks for the quick reply!

This being the only character I've rolled,... and I've slept a few times since October when I made the character, I don't rightly recall where I placed those custom attributes, in fact I don't recall that portion of the character creation at all. But my skills, with +2 implants across the board, and primary learnings to 4 and secondaries to 3 (with the exception of Presence of course are,...and I guess I'll include what EveMon says in brackets, since I don't quite get that either:

Intelligence - 22 [20.52]
Perception - 16 [14.04]
Charisma - 11 [9.72]
Willpower - 17 [15.12]
Memory - 18 [16.20]

The pocketbook won't really allow better implants atm,...but I hope to get there soon.

Can you tell me whether I happened to roll a decent Tinkerer? Or did I goof on those custom attributes.

Thanks again!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.07.26 08:17:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Bo Bojangles
my skills, with +2 implants across the board, and primary learnings to 4 and secondaries to 3 (with the exception of Presence of course are,...and I guess I'll include what EveMon says in brackets, since I don't quite get that either:
Intelligence - 22 [20.52]
Perception - 16 [14.04]
Charisma - 11 [9.72]
Willpower - 17 [15.12]
Memory - 18 [16.20]
The pocketbook won't really allow better implants atm,...but I hope to get there soon.
Can you tell me whether I happened to roll a decent Tinkerer? Or did I goof on those custom attributes.
Thanks again!


Well, the number you see inside EVE is (like I mention in the OP) a rounded down number.
The number you see in EVE-Mon however (IF you also manually input your plugged in implants) is the real number.
Seems like you haven't been editing the implants you have on you in EVE-Mon Twisted Evil
You do that by clicking the "MORE" button, then selecting "Manual Implant Groups..." option.

By the way, in EVE-Mon, if you hover the mouse over the attribute number for a little while, a small popup will eventually appear saying something like this right now:
" Intelligence : 20.52 [(12 base + 7 skills + 0 implants) * 1.08 learning bonus] "
After you manually edit in the proper implants it will be saying
" Intelligence : 22.68 [(12 base + 7 skills + 2 implants) * 1.08 learning bonus] "
That's your actual attribute value right now.

Your base attributes seem to be 12 int, 6 perception, 7 willpower, 8 memory and I can only suppose you have only L3 empathy (and therefore 6 base charisma).
So you added +1 perception, +1 intelligence, +2 memory and +1 willpower Wink
Not the best possible (you already had a high int, and perception>willpower), but overall decent enough, I guess... you could have done much worse.

Advanced learnings to L4 (all except charisma) should be your main priority, then L4 cybernetics and a select few +4 implants (if nothing else, then at least the perception one, it's not THAT expensive, you should find one now under 20 mil ISK), the rest some +3s and you could (for now) leave charisma as a +2... then finish off at least L5 spatial awareness too.
This should bump your perception up to 20.52, which is quite nice, and shouldn't take all that long.

Doing the same (+4 implant, L5 basic skill) for willpower would be nice, but it's not quite as "rewarding" as for perception (half influence only for most of your "slow combat" skills, and no influence on drone skills), so you might skip it, for now at least.

If you plan on working your drone skills up a bit (which, to be honest, you probably should, drone interfacing L3+ is good to have for any char, and several other skills there look nice too even for non-primary-combatants), you should bump up your memory too... but if you do that, do it BEFORE perception (and implant first instead of skill), as the basic learning skills (those I said you should train up to L5) are memory-primary skills too.


Bo Bojangles
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.07.27 03:06:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Your base attributes seem to be 12 int, 6 perception, 7 willpower, 8 memory and I can only suppose you have only L3 empathy (and therefore 6 base charisma).
So you added +1 perception, +1 intelligence, +2 memory and +1 willpower Wink


Ahh yes, it's coming back to me now. I had a friend on Ventrilo explaining how Intelligence and Memory as well as Perception and Willpower were related when learning different skills. I knew I was rolling a character that had high Intelligence, but wanted that extra point in Memory to back it up. The remaining points I simply spread into the other pair.

I'll follow your remaining suggestions, just as soon as I'm able to climb into my Wolf here in 9 days or so. Wink


P.S. - How in God's name did you know I've been neglect in pulling my Drones up from 4 to 5? Shocked


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.08.01 08:26:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Bo Bojangles
How in God's name did you know I've been neglect in pulling my Drones up from 4 to 5? Shocked

One of the most common *cough* "mistakes" *cough* people do... they neglect to take drones up to 5 to take advantage of the advanced drone interfacing skill (which is trivial to get to L3 after completing drones L5).
Well, not necessarily a mistake, but rather a choice... still, Drones L5 is one of the first L5 skills you'll want to have (especially since it's a rank 1 skill)... even if most people leave it "for later on".

Woodenne
Caldari
Posted - 2007.08.06 17:05:00 - [47]
 


Bumping this because it was helpful to me.

Thanks, Akita.


Khanak Hryad
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.08.06 19:26:00 - [48]
 

this is a great guide, good job akita

STICKY!!!

Zhett Haukes
Mutually Assured Distraction
Posted - 2007.08.06 20:01:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Zhett Haukes on 06/08/2007 20:40:08
I have come back to this thread as I found it very useful in the past and having recently been podded I got a whack of my base attributes, which made me start thinking about making my main my alt and vice versa again.

My base stats are:
int 21,
perc 16,
char 8,
will 16,
mem 16.
This is with all learning skills at 4/4 (except charisma as I don't use that atm.).

As a pure combat pilot I am still worried that having my intelligence 5 points higher than my perception and willpower is going to rear up and bite me if I play for much longer (which I can see me doing, still love the game!).

My alt on the otherhand, is sitting on:
Int 18,
Per 20,
Cha 9,
Wil 18,
Mem 16.

The fact that his perception is higher than my main's before I even plug any implants in is what makes me doubt my first choices. Also the fact that he is on half my mains SP (3 mil to 6mil respectivly) after less than 2 months play worries me.

I may be fretting over nothing here, but as a player who is only really interested in combat (pvp, not missions, so social skills are unimportant) I think that maybe I would be better swapping the characters status - and grinding my main's sec status back up to act as the hauler I originally wanted the alt to be!

It would be a little annoying grinding up support skills again, but now I know more about the game I think I could make a better skill plan and stick to it. My main's skills are all over the place heh.

Sorry if this post is a little hard to read/whiney. I just can't stop thinking about this!

Kera Va'Tauri
Posted - 2007.08.06 21:22:00 - [50]
 

I think there are a few things missing from the post that are somewhat valuable, especially when picking out a specialized character for a second account. Here is what I did when I created my alt account:

1) Pick your focus (Mine was total combat spec)

2) Pick a race / bloodline that matches your focus. I went Amarr / Khanid / cyberknight, though there was some serious consideration for Minmitar / Brutor / slave.

3) Pick Skills based on your WEAKEST attributes. Free skill points are skill points you don't have to spend time training on, so don't bother picking a skill pack that matches your strengths!

4) Go for implants quickly and remember you only train using 2 attributes at a time. For example, I KNEW I wanted to end up with a full set of +4s or better on my second account, but I only had enough isk for a pair of +3s and a pair of +4s. I decided to buy all 4 implants as Int / Mem implants, upgrading to the +4s once I had cybernetics to a high enough level. This allowed me to train the int / men learning skills (and advanced int / mem skills) with the int / mem implants while I made isk on my primary account to buy the other implants.

5) Don't feel bad putting even the advanced learning skills to 5 when you have +4 implants. The +4s take a few days off the total training time and if you ever get podded you at least retain the level 5 from the ADV learning skills.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.08.06 23:14:00 - [51]
 

My main (this, Akita T) has been alive more than 1.5 years, but had a couple of short breaks here and there, missing skillstrains and so on.
Base attributes, as I've mentioned, are all 9s (with charisma 3), with +4 implants plugged in, all basic learnings to 5 and advanced to 4.
Now, I have 24.2 on EACH attribute except charisma, which is at 17.6
This means I'm training at 1.5 mil SP/month as long as I stay away from charisma-based skills... which is pretty awesome, if I might say so.
I've recently passed 19 mil SP on the char, you can see a slightly oder snapshot of the skills here.


My PvP alt (second account) was created end of March this year. I've started it with +2 implants, because I wasn't quite sure I'd like to keep it. Only recently have I upgraded to +3 implants (after a podding and a longer period without any implants whatsoever, heh).
It's a Khanid Cyberknight too, ENGINEER training... learnings only L4 done (10 of them only, advanced charisma is L3 - barely over 800k SP in learning total), and with the +3 implants I have : 21.6 int, 16.2 cha, 23.76 per, 18.36 mem, 20.52 wil.
The PvP alt is now almost at 6 mil SP (so over 5 mil "useful" skills), after barely 4 months of existance... highlights including large energy turret L4 and mostly L4 gunnery support skills, Amarr battleship L5, full T2 tank and L4 capacitor skills, alongside heavy drones and so on and so forth.
Would I have gone with +3 implants from the start and haven't been spending "deadweight" time (I didn't bother getting any jumpclones for her, so I go into combat with the implants too) without implants, I might be well over 6.5 mil SP by now.


Just to give you a couple of pointers, the learning skills should easily be done (if you pick engineer and fund implants/skills) in less than two weeks, and you can already be on the way of improving desireable skills.

Nogoel Manek
Posted - 2007.08.07 21:03:00 - [52]
 

Akita, what would be in your opinion the best starting stats for a Combat Gallente Immigrant? Thanks!

PER 10
INT 6 +3?
MEM 4 +2?
WIL 6
CHA 8

Kera Va'Tauri
Posted - 2007.08.07 22:57:00 - [53]
 

Quick question, because I'm not exactly the best in math...

Lets say that I created an Achura with 3 starting Cha. Now lets also say that I trained this Achura to lvl 5 of the basic learning skill and level 4 of the advanced skill (so 12 total).

How many skill points much I train in skills that Charisma as a primary to make it worth learning level 5 of the Advanced skill.

Now lets say that I plugged a +5 implant in while I trained advanced cha to level 5, but immediately got podded after learning advanced cha 5. How many skill points must I train to make up for level 5 adv learning considering I learned it faster with the +5?

Now can we do the same with with perception, assuming my base per was 9?

Thanks!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.08.08 02:20:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Nogoel Manek
Akita, what would be in your opinion the best starting stats for a Combat Gallente

Depending on how hybrid-oriented vs drone-oriented your char needs to be, how long do you plan to train it (specific SP target or keep training indefinetely), what school you want to hcreate it in, and how soon you need it "battle-ready", your best attribute choices will vary greatly, from +3p/+2w to +2p/+3i or even +3m/+2i optimal.
If you just HAVE to pick Galente for some reason, and focus almost exclusively on combat, I'd rather recommend Jin-mei, Jing-ko or Saan-go, instead of Gallente immigrant (that one is more suitable for general purpose rather than combat).


Like I said, and how other people pointed out alongside the thread, the table you can see in the OP is sorted for "best general purpose character" selection, and as such is not the best suited for quickly picking a highly specialised character with ease.

If you need a highly specialised character, I'd suggest to start backwards: first make a few LISTS of the skills you want (level, rank, primary/secondary attribute) at various developement levels... calculate for each list how much each of the attributes contribute to your skillplan, then decide what would be the best attributes to pick so that no section of your plan takes too long.
Then look for a character that is closest to your desired attribute spread, then pick the rest of the custom attributes to further bring it in line with your desires.
It's a lot of work, and it's highly circumstantial, depending on what you want trained.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.08.08 02:57:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Kera Va'Tauri
Lets say that I created an Achura with 3 starting Cha. Now lets also say that I trained this Achura to lvl 5 of the basic learning skill and level 4 of the advanced skill (so 12 total).
How many skill points much I train in skills that Charisma as a primary to make it worth learning level 5 of the Advanced skill.
Now lets say that I plugged a +5 implant in while I trained advanced cha to level 5, but immediately got podded after learning advanced cha 5. How many skill points must I train to make up for level 5 adv learning considering I learned it faster with the +5?
Now can we do the same with with perception, assuming my base per was 9?

Well, the assumptions you make don't tell the whole story.
First off, for L5 Clarity/ +5 per implant, I'd also need the base value of willpower and willpower implant plugged in.
Second, what would be the value of the secondary skill for charisma-based skills you want trained ?
Third, fater the podding, do you stay implantless or do you plug in a set of +4s ?

Meanwhile, I'll assume you have 3 CHA and everything else is "all 9" base, that all skills are trained at L5 base and L4 advanced, that you have +5 implants in the head normally, and in case of the podding you plug in +4s afterwards.
__

You'd have 25.3 in all attributes except charisma, which would be 18.7
CHA main skills train at 1881 SP/hour.
CHA sec skills train at 2079 SP/hour.
No CHA skills train at 2277 SP/hour.

There's 632,235 SP from L4 to L5 for all the advanced learnings.
Everything except Presence and Focus will take 11.57 days to train, Focus (+w) will take 12.67 days to train, Presence (+c) will take 14 days to train.

The net profit of having any of them trained a level higher is exactly +66 SP/hour for primary skills, or +33 SP/hour for secondary skills compared to NOT having it trained, and is the SAME as if you plugged in an implant "one level higher".
___

In case of L5 Presence and +5 implant, CHA main skills train at 1881+66 SP/hour, or ~3.5% (1/28.5) increase.
It will take around 399 days worth of training "charisma main" skills (or in other words a little bit over 18 mil SP worth of charisma-main skills) for the L5 training to "pay off".

In case you get podded and you plug back in a +4 implant, CHA main skills would have been trained at 1881-66 SP/hour before, now they train at 1881 (same as with +5 implant), or a ~3.636% (1/27.5) increase.
It will take around 385 days (or around 17.4 mil SP) worth of "CHA main" skills to make it "pay off".


For advanced perception (Clarity), and perception main / nocharisma secondary skills it's 2277 vs 2277+66 is merely a ~2.898% (1/34.5) increase.
As it only takes you around 11.57 days to train though, the fun result is a payoff of (wait for it) same 399 days as for charisma.
The amount of SPs you need to train in perception-main skills to "pay it off" however is ~22.4 mil.

Can you guess the result when you take off one of the implants ?
2277-66 vs 2277, or in other words a 1/33.5 increase, or around 387 days (yes, slightly longer as charisma).
That translates into ~22.2 mil SP in perception-primary skills you need to train to have it "pay off".

Hai MuyTai
Posted - 2007.08.26 11:41:00 - [56]
 

Once again you have opened, cleaned and polished my eyes Akita! :)
I finally understand (and can calculate) resistances and now i have a greater understanding of attributes.. Wonderfull!
As i reactivated my accounts a month ago, i created a new amarr character. For some reason i have yet to understand (ive tried hypnosis, drugs and torture), i picked 8 base charisma. Now i created a new character on second account (old one there was a retired refiner/hauler anyways) with the knowledge from this thread. I picked caldari as it does provide the best attributes for me. As caldari and gallente both uses hybrid weapons im no longer "tied down" to only amarr ships as i was with amarr. As mentioned in this thread i tried to not get skills i easily can train with my attributes. Caldari Frig III makes training gallente frigs alot easier than if i would have had frig V :)

Anywho.. thanks for the enlightment!

Any plans on creating more guides? #1 on my wishlist is a recommended missionfrig (tech1+2) for each race with a suggested fitting .. ive searched and searched .. but its always about pvp :( (ie, what frig to start out with (assuming you have 200k so you can by any of them) and second: Assault ship, interceptor or stealthbomber?)

Serena Stardancer
Posted - 2007.08.27 18:02:00 - [57]
 

/wave

So I did some calculations based off of all the info that's been presented in this thread, and I figured I'd submit myself to the critiques of those that have more expertise in making the most efficient character for the purposes of training specific skills.

First, let me point out that this toon is primarily going to be a PvP pilot, and I am trying to expedite as much training time as I can in skills such as gunnery, missiles, spaceship command, drones, and the like.

When I built my spreadsheet, I used the 9/9/9/9/3 as my baseline, and made several comparison values for determining how fast one branch of skills would train over another. By adding the attributes together (2* Primary + 1* Secondary), I was able to make a 'baseline' value to compare various other attribute configurations against. Using the following info:

Base attribute (non Cha): 9
Basic Learning: L5
Advanced Learning: L4
Implants: +3
Learning Skill: L5 (110% attribute increase).

I was able to come up with a total modified attribute of 23.1. Using 23.1 for primary and secondary gave me a 'score' of 69.3 for skills using 23.1/23.1 as their attribute training values.

With the above information, training on a Rank 1 skill comes out to approximately:

L1: 7 mins and change
L2: 33 mins and change
L3: 3h 10m
L4: 17h 55m
L5: 4d 5h 22m

These seem pretty consistent with the training times I had on an old Achura character I had rolled w/ the above attributes. Now with my new focus on this particular toon set to be PvP, I figured I'd try to custom tailor the attributes for the skill branches that have a lot of high rank skills and long train times (Battleship skills for instance w/ their high rank and long train times as a prereq for carriers).

Ultimately, what I came up with was another Achura with the following:

Base --> Ancestry --> Create Bonus --> Total Base:

Int: -- 8 --> +0 --> +0 --> 8
Mem: -- 6 --> +0 --> +2 --> 8
Per: -- 7 --> +2 --> +3 --> 12
Wil: -- 6 --> +2 --> +0 --> 8
Cha: -- 3 --> +0 --> +0 --> 3

Now using the same Basic/Advanced/Implants/Learning bonuses, my scores become:

Int/Mem/Wil: 22.0
Perc: 26.4
Cha: 16.5

Now the advantages that this particular build holds is that I train drone skills slightly faster (70.4) than the 69.3 baseline that the 9/9/9/9/3 gives me. On skills like Gunnery/Missiles/T1 Spaceship command skills, my numbers are more like 74.8. Navigation and T2 ship skills are also 70.4. My disadvantages are that my 'support' skills like Electronics, Engineering, Mechanic, Learning, and Science related skills train with a score of 66, and my Charisma heavy skills are in the middle 50s (which is to be expected).

Now, what those numbers mean:

Using the above training times for the 69.3, the scores listed in my build look like this:

Skills w/ a 66 value (Learning, Electronics, Engineering, Mechanic)
- From 0 SP to L4: Loss of 1h 5m per Rank
- From 0 SP to L5: Gain of 6h 9m per Rank
NOTE: This also applies to Industry and Science skills, but those aren't a primary focus of this toon's career

Skills w/ a 70.4 value (Drones, T2 ship skills, Navigation)
- From 0 SP to L4: Gain of 20m per Rank
- From 0 SP to L5: Gain of 1h 55m per Rank

Skills w/ a 74.8 value (Gunnery, Missiles, T1 ship skills)
- From 0 SP to L4: Gain of 1h 36m per Rank
- From 0 SP to L5: Gain of 9h 3m per Rank

Now, most of the support skills, with the exception of the L5s needed to fly T2 ships, and prereqs for other skilling will most likely stay at L4, so I won't be losing more than an hour per rank on those. What I stand to gain on the long high rank spaceship command and Gunnery/Missile skills seems like it would far outweigh those modest losses.

I've looked at multiple configurations for attributes, and this set seems to be the best for what I want to do.

Would you guys agree with my findings, or does someone have a better way to set my attributes for faster training?

Thanks,

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.08.28 10:01:00 - [58]
 

@ Serena Stardancer

As a PvPer, you'll want per>wil>=int>=mem>>cha.
The reason, like you already noticed, is that standard weapon/ship skills are P/W skills (where you want L5 skills), most support skills are I/M skills (and with a few exceptions needed for T2 modules, L4s will do fine)... some drone skills (M/P) are always welcome, and the "advanced" ship skills are W/P, not P/W.

So, as a PvPer with a heavy combat bias, you're probably better off with an Anchura Monk, 9+3=12 P, 8+2=10 W, 8 I, 6 M, 3 C (so, the same as your initial pick, but with +2w instead of +2m).
Sure, your learning skills will take a bit longer (so you really, really, absolutely really want to start as engineer, because you get to plug in implants ASAP, get +4i/+2m skills and also have a good deal of support skills already trained up), drones will also take a bit longer, but the immensely long skills (weapon specialisations, T2 ship skills) will train a lot faster (including the advanced ship skills, which you also might want at L5 ASAP).


@ Hai MuyTai

Always glad to be of help, I'm thinking about doing that too, but time is not my best friend nowadays.

A few short pointers though, for the PvE-inclined people:
* missiles are king of PvE (Kestrel with 4 standard launchers, Caracal with 5 "light" assault launchers, Drake with 7 heavy launchers, Raven with 6 cruise or siege launchers)
* if you can't have missiles, pick long-range guns (rails, artillery, beam lasers) on gunboats and focus on getting decent drone skills for extra damage
* short-range guns are to be used almost exclusively on ships with good navigation skills, and fit for speed ; exceptions exist, but not many, and they won't handle as well as any of the above
* above-average tank needed on ships not fit for speed-tanking (and always take out webbers first in speed-tanked ships)

Here's a few "easy as pie" missioning fits...

L1s in Kestrel : 2 PDS, AB, SB, 4 SML and whatever still fits in that last midslot (depends a lot on other skills)
L2s in Caracal : either PDSs, BCSs or SPRs (depending on skills), 2 hardners, 3 LSEs, 5 assault missile launchers (the ones shooring light missiles)
L3s in Drake : 1-2 BCS, 2-3 PDS/SPR (again depending on skills), 3 LSEs, 3 hardners/resamps/shieldrech, 7 heavy missile launchers
L4s in Raven : 2-3 BCS, 3-2 PDS, (X-)L Shield booster, SBAmp, 3-4 hardners and either cap recharger (XLSB/cruise) or target painter (LSB/siege), 6 cruise or siege launchers, 2 NOS or tractor/salvager or whatever else you can fit

Anew Foreman
Posted - 2007.08.28 13:03:00 - [59]
 


Passin Through
Posted - 2007.09.05 19:03:00 - [60]
 

I saw "sebiestor trader" mentioned above.

What is the best race/blodline to be a trading type person?


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