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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.03.26 03:11:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 14/03/2009 19:47:51


THIS GUIDE HAS BEEN RENDERED OBSOLETE
SINCE THE 10th OF MARCH 2009 EXPANSION

While some of the data is useful for
skill planning and such, the main goal
of this guide (picking a race/bloodline)
is no longer of any relevance whatsoever.


--- yellow text below STILL valid now ---


ALL characters start nowadays
(regardless of race or bloodline)
with 8/8/8/8/7cha base attributes
and very similar skill sets.

You get to CHANGE your base attributes
any way you see fit, as long as you keep
the sum at 39 and each between 5 and 15.
New characters get 2 FREE "neural remaps",
to be used at any time for no cost.
After that, neural remaps cost 5 mil ISK
and can only be done ONCE EVERY 365 DAYS.


NOTE : yes, this does mean that
some of the attribute combinations
that used to be possible before
are no longer available to new characters.


What this means is that you can do
one free remap as soon as you start
another remap whenever you want
(even the next day or next week)
then the third has to be one year later.

You only start with around 50k SP nowadays
compared to the 800+k SP you used to,
but at least you train at double speed
until you reach 1.6 mil SP total,
when training speed drops down to normal.

Sadly, this means that getting some of
the learning skills done before 1.6 mil SP
(the more of them and the sooner, the better)
is twice as important as it used to be.
You CAN still ignore or at least delay them,
but it's going to hurt twice as bad if you do.



- old (partially) obsolete guide starts below -







1. Introduction

One thing you should always remember: it DOES NOT matter what race, bloodline and ancestry you pick, you can end up training the same things everybody else can train.
Given enough time, you can even train each and every skill in the game to level 5... well, it will take a couple of decades to do it, but you get the idea.

The only difference between characters (other than the portrait) is HOW FAST you train those skills.
The formula is pretty simple: every minute, you get a certain amount of skillpoints equal to "primary" attribute score plus half of "secondary" attribute score.

So, for example, if you train a skill that has Perception primary and Willpower secondary (most ship and weapon skills have that combination), and if your character has currently 16.50 PER and 11.00 WIL, you will be getting 22 SP per minute (or 1320 SP per hour, or 31680 SP per day).



Every character starts with 39 "base" attribute points, 34 of which are determined by race, bloodline and ancestry, while the other 5 can be manually distributed (no more than 3 of the 5 points on a single attribute though).
The average BASE attribute value is therefore 39/5=7.8

Recently, you also get "free learning skills" depending on school picked (military, bussiness or industry), with one L4 and one L2 "+1 per level attribute boosting" skill already trained, on top of some levels in "learning" (+2% to all attributes per level).


AT MOST, with all basic and advanced learning skills trained up to L5 (takes a very long time), and with +5 implants plugged in (very expensive to get, also need L5 in Cybernetics to use), you can get +15 to each base attribute, for a total of 39+5*15=114 attribute points, and with L5 learning it's 114*1.1=125.4 total maximum possible attribute sum.
The "maximum" average is therefore (7.8+15)*1.1=25.08

NOTE: In-game, an attribute value of (for instance) 20.90 is still DISPLAYED as "20", even if the influence on training is almost the same as having a "true" value of 21.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.03.26 03:12:00 - [2]
 


2. What race/bloodline/ancestry should I pick ?

First of all, you have to consider the following fact:
you CAN NOT change your choice once you created your character.

Even if you change the portrait, it NEEDS to be of the same bloodline and gender as the initially chosen character.
So, for instance, even if you are attracted by the Caldari Achura attributes, the male Achura portraits are probably the ugliest-looking ones around. Some people actually refuse to create an Achura character because of that (true story).

Also, the "roleplay" element is pretty important, so you might want a certain race, or even a certain bloodline for RP reasons rather than aesthetic or practical ones.


Considering the learning skills level the playing field pretty much in the long run, you might consider picking a "suboptimal" character of your desired race/bloodline simply because you like the way they look or just love their background story.

You will probably have a much tougher start and a slower overall progress, but at least you won't hate your own in-game face.


This guide will let you quickly browse through various stats, so you can make an informed guess with minimal effort as to what bloodline best accomodates not only your "need for effectiveness" but also visual appeal and even roleplay elements.

The final choice is yours, and if you really, really want to pick the worst possible long-term combo just because you love the face/story, it's your right to do so.
Realistically speaking, long-term, you will only be about 20% behind the rest that picked "the best combo", so it's not a disaster.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.03.26 03:12:00 - [3]
 

3. So is there such a thing as a "good" and "bad" pick ?

The long version involves lengthy talks about specialized characters and limited training time, a discution that mainly concerns alts (secondary/alternate characters, built for specific purposes). Also, such "alts" will usually rely on funding from the "main" in the early days, so it's even less of an issue for them.


The short version (so, for genuine new players) is YES, there is such a thing as "good" vs "bad" choices.
The reason is pretty simple, actually.

A "primary" (or sole) character will grow and become self-sustainable in a reasonable timespan only if you have a reasonably well-rounded selection of skills.
You can't trade without ISK reserves, you need to run missions or mine to acquire ISK in the early days, you also need to devote as much as possible time to perfecting the learning skills.
Well, at least once you have enough skills done to cover your "moneymaking" needs, that is... DO NOT start training advanced learnings or something like that before you have a decent capital aquiring method, or else you will suffer.

Basically, you need a decent starter attribute spread that will not stiffle your later growth, while still providing you with a decent amount of "oomph" in the early phase.


You will want to get as little charisma as possible, because there's simply not much to train (and especially not to L5) that requires charisma (neither as primary nor as secondary) early on.
The next attribute you shouldn't care too much about is willpower. Willpower is a secondary attribute in spaceship command and weapon skills, so you should only minimize it (if at all possible) when you have a very high perception.
Memory is not only a secondary attribute in support skills, but also primary in the basic learnings and drones (alongside, you guessed it, perception).
Intelligence is also a very important attribute, primary in all support skills and science, and secondary in basic learning.

So your "attribute importance order" is:
PER >= INT >= MEM >= WIL >>> CHA

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.03.26 03:13:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 11/08/2008 13:24:55

4. The tables, the raw figures, the math behind it.


I have created a (rather objective, even if not obvious at first sight) "overall score" for each of the 36 possible ancestry choices, based on the discussed issues.

The exact formula used is rather irrelevant, but for the reference, it is :
((10*per+9*int+5*mem+4*wil+cha)*(2*per+2*int+mem-cha)-3114)/652.1
A score of "8" vs a score of "1" does NOT mean the choice is eight times better, it's only a relative indication of "versatility" and "ease of use", on a scale of 10 (most versatile) to 0 (least versatile).



race / bloodline / ancest : PER INT MEM WIL CHA ; OVERALL

Caldari achura invent : 7 12 6 6 3 ; 10.0
Caldari achura stargaz : 8 8 9 6 3 ; 8.3
Caldari achura monk : 9 8 6 8 3 ; 8.1
Amarr khanid cyberkn : 11 6 4 8 5 ; 6.4
Caldari deteis scienti : 6 10 7 5 6 ; 5.9
Minmatar sebiestor tinker : 5 11 6 6 6 ; 5.5
Amarr nikunni bordrun : 10 6 6 4 8 ; 4.8
Minmatar sebiestor rebel : 8 7 6 7 6 ; 4.7
Caldari civire entrep : 9 5 8 6 6 ; 4.7
Minmatar vherokior drifter : 6 9 8 3 8 ; 4.5
Minmatar brutor slave : 11 4 4 9 6 ; 4.2
Gallente Gallente immigr : 10 6 4 6 8 ; 4.1
Gallente jin-mei jing ko : 10 5 5 7 7 ; 4.0
Caldari deteis mercha : 5 7 11 5 6 ; 3.9
Minmatar brutor worker : 9 4 8 7 6 ; 3.8
Gallente Gallente miner : 8 6 8 4 8 ; 3.7
Amarr khanid union : 8 7 4 8 7 ; 3.6
Amarr khanid zealot : 8 5 6 10 5 ; 3.5
Caldari civire merc : 9 5 4 10 6 ; 3.2
Amarr Amarr wealthy : 4 7 9 10 4 ; 3.2
Gallente intaki reborn : 3 8 11 6 6 ; 3.0
Gallente jin-mei saan go : 6 7 7 7 7 ; 2.9
Amarr Amarr relig : 4 7 6 14 3 ; 2.6
Caldari deteis tubech : 5 7 7 9 6 ; 2.5
Gallente intaki artist : 5 8 7 6 8 ; 2.5
Caldari civire disse : 9 5 4 8 8 ; 2.4
Minmatar brutor tribal : 9 4 4 10 7 ; 2.0
Minmatar vherokior mystic : 4 8 8 6 8 ; 2.0
Minmatar vherokior retail : 4 7 11 3 9 ; 1.8
Amarr nikunni navyvet : 7 5 6 8 8 ; 1.5
Amarr Amarr liberal : 4 7 6 11 6 ; 1.4
Gallente Gallente activis : 8 6 4 4 12 ; 0.8
Minmatar sebiestor trader : 5 7 6 6 10 ; 0.7
Gallente jin-mei sang do : 6 5 5 10 8 ; 0.4
Gallente intaki diplom : 3 8 7 6 10 ; 0.2
Amarr nikunni frmerc : 7 5 6 4 12 ; 0.0




P.S. Due to constant questions about this listing above, clearning up a few confusions...

The above list covers "versatility".
Versatility does NOT mean "this is the best character you can pick".
It only means "this is the LEAST BAD character you can pick OVERALL if you have no idea what you'll be doing".
It's a table made for the persons who never played EVE before, who have no clue what to pick for their first character, and even less of a clue about what they'll want to do later on in the game.
Yes, it could mean that if you do pick the most extreme and unlikely job, this "overall least worst" choice could mean you actually got one of the worst choices, so it's not a win/win situation.

HOWEVER

If you KNOW EXACTLY what you want to be or do, and you have your skillplan mapped out for years to come, then this table above is useless to you.
What you want to do instead is get EVE-HQ, plug in that skillplan, and let the program pick the best race/bloodline/school and even the custom skillpoint distribution for you (it actually calculates just about every combination, but you sort by completion time and pick one of those with the lowest optimal completion times).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.03.26 03:35:00 - [5]
 

5. So what does that mean and what should I do ?


Basically, go from top to bottom of this list and pick the highest on the list that appeals to you.


Then, distribute the 5 "custom" points either to alleviate some problems in certain departments (depends a lot on your initial bloodline/ancestry choice).

Or, you can simply boost perception, intelligence and even memory : 3P/2I, 2P/2I/1M and even 3I/2M are very popular choices regardless of bloodline.


Once "in", train whatever helps you make ISK faster, MAKE some ISK fast, then buy the remaining learning skills (you only have 3 of the 6 basics, and you could already train one advanced, but it costs 4.5 mil ISK, money better spent on a cruiser in the first days).
Train all learning skills to L2, the very least, in the first day. Try to get most (if not all) of them to L3 in the first 2-3 days.
Getting L3 science and then L1 cybernetics, plugging in a set of (cheap) +1 implants is also a very good idea.


REMEMBER to train whatever you NEED first, and NOT the full learning skilltree.
For your first two-three weeks, getting a bunch of profession-related skills up to speed is a lot more important.
It will seriously hamper your progress in the long run if you fail to "make ISK" and focus on "getting the learnings done".

ONLY train the learning skills first if you already have a "main" account and this one is your secondary.
In this case, getting (via funding from main) a set of +3 implants and all L4 basic/L3 advanced learnings is mandatory as soon as possible.
After that, it's really your choice, but that's already a lot of attribute points within less than two weeks (normally).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.03.26 03:47:00 - [6]
 

6. Final words of wisdom ?

In this forum, you also have a pretty good outlook on how the starting skills get distributed between the races and schools.
Starter skillpack comparation thread
Only the RACE and the "profession" matters.
Bloodline and ancestry don't influence the starter skillpack, only the attributes you use to furter train/refine your choices.

You might want to get EVE-Mon downloaded, installed and configured once you created your character.
Just make sure you download it from THEIR site and not any 3rd party mirror, as you really don't want to end up with any keyloggers or trojans.

As for the "is it safe to use EVE-Mon" question, it has been repeatedly answered on these forums, even by devs.
Their reply: "we use it ourselves a lot".
If you're really paranoid (and have a bit of a programming bone in you), you can download the source code, check it, and build it yourself.



Oh, and as they always say... whenever you don't know when you're coming back online, ALWAYS set a long skill training.
Better train bits and pieces of a not-so-urgent L5 skill than miss several minutes, hours or even days of training time.
As skill training progress is not lost, you'll thank me later when "<race> battleship L5 training complete" finally comes into EVE-Mail a lot sooner as expected/planned.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.03.27 09:00:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 11/08/2008 14:04:52



7. A FEW (LATE) WORDS ABOUT EVE-HQ


What is and where to get EVE-HQ ?

Forum thread - explains what it is, what it can do, etc.
Their downloads page - if you think you already know what it is, just download it directly.


How to use EVE-HQ to get your optimal character build for a certain skillplan ?

First, make sure you have it downloaded, installed, working properly, etc.
I had no trouble doing any of that, but if you do, ask in their forum thread or something like that.
Open up the "Character Creation" plug-in (hopefully you got that too already).
Go under "Character Goal Seek" and fill in your desired skillplan (might take a while, make sure you got them all). It automatically fills in prerequisites, so if you know you don't want any of the prerequisites trained higher, don't bother.

The most IMPORTANT thing now is the "allow attribute variations" checkbox.
Leaving this box unchecked (default) means all characters get +1 in each custom skillpoint.
You still get the best choice (race/bloodline/job) without it selected, but you don't know what the optimal custom attributes would be.
However, it calculates a LOT faster... on very, VERY long skill plans, with this checkbox selected, you could be waiting for HOURS (yes, hours, not minutes) before a result comes in.
On short skillplans however, it's not a problem, you might get a result in seconds.


NOTE : the times you get under "Optimal Queue Time" are implantless times, for all characters.
Obviously, if you train cybernetics and plug in some implants, the times will go down... but overall, the order will remain the same between characters.




A very short example, say you want the fastest way to a Gallente mothership alt (just the bare minimum needed to board it, not actually fly it properly) : only add "Gallente Carrier III" to the list.
Since this is a relatively short plan (not extremely short, but short enough so I'm not afraid I'll have to wait for hours), I'll also "allow attribute variations"... and then click "SEEK GOAL".

After you click, get away from the machine and let the calculations run. A progress bar will slowly fill up (if you have am extremely long plan, it could be minutes before the first bar fill shows up, so be patient). In my case (the above example), the first bar showed up in a couple of seconds.
About 15 minutes later (yeah, I told you the "allow attribute variations" makes it take a much longer time... and I don't have an extremely fast machine either), I'm presented with the results list.
Clicking on the "opt queue time" header orders it by completion time : SCREENSHOT .
"Std queue time" would be the skillplan WITHOUT any aditional learnings. Of course, nobody in their right mind would use that, but who knows.

Doing the same thing without attribute variations yields results in about 40 seconds (yeah, seconds, not 15 minutes), and the results are not THAT different : SCREENSHOT .
Also, you can easily decide where the custom points should go to without having to resort to the long search, just by looking at the next few best options.


Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2007.03.27 10:34:00 - [8]
 

Section 2
Disagree with the much tougher. That's more a personal opinion and shouldn't be in the guide unless you can back it up with some numbers. Too lazy to do the math myself but I feel an average character only spends a few hours to a day longer getting the basic skills for fighting, trading or mining.

Section 3
Willpower is primary in T2 ships.

If you're going the fighting route you will be be training a lot more skills with per/wil then int/mem. Taking a bit longer in the support skills will pay of on the ships and weapons in the end.

Your opening sentence makes it sounds as important as charisma and I, at first, read over the line that says you should only minimize it when you've got high perception. The whole section is a bit confusing.

While it is true that charisma is an underused stat at the moment it does have it's uses to have it a bit higher at the start since most of the skills improve lp, standing and monetary gain. Second, there's no guarantee it will stay an underused stat. You might want to add a disclaimer. Not everyone realizes MMO's change and what is good today may be bad tomorrow.

All sections
On the whole, a guide should use short, direct sentences.

e.g. : "The formula is pretty simple: every minute, you get a certain amount of skillpoints equal to "primary" attribute score plus half of "secondary" attribute score."

Looks better as: The formula is simple: the skillpoints per minute equal the primary attribute score plus half of the secondary attribute score.

or: : "The reason is pretty simple, actually." should just be "The reason is simple."

Google for some business writing tips, it'll help in your job or schoolwork too.




Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
Posted - 2007.03.28 06:16:00 - [9]
 

Thanks Akita, I like that guide Smile!

Two points form my side,though:

Since this guide seems to be aimed towards the newbie creating his first char, I believe it is somewhat difficult to understand for those who have only very limited knowledge about EVE.

It looks like it is focused on the best average allround type of character, opening all options for future gameplay. However, some players, especially with former MMOG experience from other games, may already know that their preferences are either in the industrial (non-fighting) or military (fighting) career. For those the scoring would be different. Maybe you could change your formulas to better reflect an int/mem focus for industrial chars and a perc/will focus for military chars, and publish two more ranking tables for those specialised careers.

Juwi Kotch

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.03.29 09:20:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 29/03/2007 09:27:23


Observations duly noted, will go ahead and rewrite a few "stuffy" sentences for better understanding, add "more math" in (with some clear examples) and last but not least also make a few "specialised build" rankings.

___

Washell Olivaw : "much tougher in the start" merely refers to the first couple of months of "character life", where the balance between learning skills and actual, useful skills is precarious at best. This being a "genuine new character" guide, it's biased a lot towards them. Long-term, with some decent implants and learning skill levels, the differences between characters are minimal, regardless of starter attributes, as already explained.

Juwi Kotch : well, to be honest, mining is a very boring and not really profitable bussiness for starter characters, trading requires some starter capital and a bit of in-game knowledge to be profitable too, industry (manufacturing) requires not only ISK investment but also decent amounts of skill... so the best (easiest) way for new characters to make ISK is through missions. Now, wether it's "kill" or "courier" missions, that's a different story, but in the end missions still are the best way to get a character going. Oh, and the standings you gain never hurt either.



You can always create a second "specialised" character later in your EVE life.
Personally, I'm quite happy with my less-than-a-year old completely "generalist" char (even if char/account is more than 1 year old, I had almost 3 months break from EVE early in the char life, due to RL issues).

"Akita T" has over 2 bil worth of skills and implants in her head (all jumpclones too, never removed implants when you can plug in a new set in a fresh clone), several ships and well over 1 bil in liquid ISK (could be a lot more if I cared about getting more ISK... but didn't need anymore), can mine decently in a Rokh (maybe train for Covetor/Hulk later, not a priority anyway, I loathe mining), it can refine, manufacture and research with acceptable effectiveness, it can run almost (*no Enemies Abound please) all L4 missions without a problem on the "focus" ships (even in very laggy systems, Drake FTW), it can fly a very wide range of ships (almost every T1/faction in the game), continuosly expanding the choices (plan to be able to fly everything T2 except capitals as soon as possible... so in another 9 months or so), it can use almost every type of module in the game (no T2 weapons except heavy missiles yet)... and it can even trade relatively well.

Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
Posted - 2007.03.30 07:52:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Akita T
...

Washell Olivaw : "much tougher in the start" merely refers to the first couple of months of "character life", where the balance between learning skills and actual, useful skills is precarious at best. This being a "genuine new character" guide, it's biased a lot towards them. Long-term, with some decent implants and learning skill levels, the differences between characters are minimal, regardless of starter attributes, as already explained.

Juwi Kotch : well, to be honest, mining is a very boring and not really profitable bussiness for starter characters, trading requires some starter capital and a bit of in-game knowledge to be profitable too, industry (manufacturing) requires not only ISK investment but also decent amounts of skill... so the best (easiest) way for new characters to make ISK is through missions. Now, wether it's "kill" or "courier" missions, that's a different story, but in the end missions still are the best way to get a character going. Oh, and the standings you gain never hurt either.

...

There are players who are just not primarily interested in fighting, they are attracted by the economical and trade features of EVE, or even just love to mine (yes, those pilots exist, I've already met a few of them). For those it would be frustrating when they accidently learn after a few month playing EVE, that they would skill up faster had they just selected a different char at the beginning. On the other hand, other pilots hate nothing more then industrialists gameplay, and even when they have started with a well balanced char, they might be asking themselves if it wouldn't have been better to create a char genuinly dedicated to fighting.

However, you are correct, in the end it all evens out. But in the first 2 or 3 years of gameplay, it could make a difference.

I myself have started with an industrialist char, and am still happy with that, although I curse from time to time when I need to improve my fighting capabilities. But fighting is, and probably allways will be, my second priority only. For instance, although I'm at nearly 26mil SP now, I haven't even bought the Battleship skill yet, and have 0 skillpoints in missiles. On the other hand, I also have only a bit more then 1,000 skillpoints in mining related skills... Shocked

Juwi Kotch

Tiberyya Za
Bellum Aeternus
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2007.03.31 08:42:00 - [12]
 

Military pilots need Perception for offense and ships plus Intelligence for defense and support. (Gallente need to splash Memory for Drones.) Charisma is useful for getting better rewards from agents.

Industrial pilots need Intelligence and Memory for mining -> refining -> manufacturing, and Perception for your mining barges, cargo ships, etc. Charisma is useful for selling your products.

Willpower is my choice for drop stat.

Amber Leonne
Gallente
New Eden Technical Institutes
Posted - 2007.04.26 14:26:00 - [13]
 

K, it's time.. If I wanted to max out the mining skills & Mining Barge/Exhumers, what's the best race/line/+'s to stats? +3 implants will be used, so the first thing to train is Cybernetics obviously. Knowing that, could I also get a projection on how long it would take to fully train that character up? Learning skills, Mining skills, and Exhumer skills. Mail/convo me in game, email me at Swat-Chick@Hotmail.com, can also send me an EVE Mon XML file plan set I guess. Any help would be greatly appreciated, I finally have a list of names for characters I wanna make :)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.04.26 22:37:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Amber Leonne
K, it's time.. If I wanted to max out the mining skills & Mining Barge/Exhumers, what's the best race/line/+'s to stats? +3 implants will be used, so the first thing to train is Cybernetics obviously. Knowing that, could I also get a projection on how long it would take to fully train that character up? Learning skills, Mining skills, and Exhumer skills.

Other than Barges (which you need L5), the only other W/P skill is exhumers, which is better left at L4 for a loooong while (unless you're mining for ice). So basically, you want as much mem/int as possible, rather balanced between them (mem best at the very start if you do learnings, otherwise int more important, and more important either way early on, mem later on again when you reach the reprocessing skills and want to diversify in many different ore types).


As such, there is no such thing as "the best miner character", as it depends a lot on what your target is: get mining in a barge as soon as possible solo ? obtain the most ISK return for "investment" in equipment, implants and skills... short, medium or long term ? focus on a single ore type or branch out on several ? low-end ore, or high-end ore (s) ? will this be a solo miner, or will it be a member of a much larger group lead by somebody with mining-enhancing skills ? or will he be the leader of such a group ? do you have an ISK limit you are willing to spend, or do you just want to maximize mining potential across the board without thought of ISK investment and return time/effectiveness at all ?


To put it into perspective, a Covetor with T1 stripminers and MINIMAL skills (L4 mining) needed to fit it properly will mine about 978 ore per minute. You can get there in a matter of about 6 to 8 weeks.
From a Covetor to a Hulk, the "distance" is absolutely minimal in terms of skill training... a couple of days at most, literally. Training L4 exhumers will take only about a week compared to when you got your Covetor skills.

A Hulk with L4 exhumers and same T1 strip setup as the above Covetor (using 2 mining upgrades instead of one) will be raking in 1150 ore per minute (or almost 1200 with L5 mining).

Same char except some serious DRONE skills later, exact same setup (Covetor with T1 strips), but adding five T2 mining drones (also with L4 drone interfacing) will extract almost 1260 ore per minute (1310 with L5 mining).
Would it be on a Hulk with L4 exhumers instead, it would be 1430 ore per minute (1485 with L5 mining).

T2 stripminers plus T2 mining crystals require HUGE extra skill investment (especially for the higher end ores) and DON'T even add 17% to the stripminer yield, without even considering crystal cost (they do break with use). Factoring mining drones too, and substracting the cost of crystals, the difference between using T1 stripminers (no crystals, extremely cheap) and T2 stripminers with T2 crystals (expensive and a logistics nightmare) is probably closer to a mere 10% extra net income over time.
Of course, it's not bad, but this should be last on your priority list, and to be honest, purely optional.
_____

Starter skillpack-wise, the FASTEST into mining barges are Minmatar Engineers.

As such, your best bet here would be a Minmatar Sebiestor Tinker, with +3 mem and +2 int.
Base attributes would therefore be 13 INT, 9 MEM, 6 WIL, 5 PER and an useless 6 CHA.
They start with L4 science (can train Astrogeology right away) and L5 industry, also L4 analytical mind and L2 instant recall plus L1 learning.
Actual starter attributes (modified) are 17.34 INT, 11.22 MEM and rest, well, you guess.
That means that Cybernetics L1 can be obtained in a matter of minutes, also Logic can be trained right away (first level again only a couple of minutes) for a total of 21.42 INT and 14.28 MEM in a matter of only about one hour since char creation.

Attribute-wise, Caldari Achura Prospector Stargazer (early bias) or Inventor (overspec bias).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.04.26 23:03:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 26/04/2007 23:11:44


Medium term or so (i.e. "most effective" IMHO), your best bet would be the following:
Caldari Achura Stargazer, Industry/Prospector training.
8 PER
11 (=8+3) INT
11 (=9+2) MEM
6 WIL and 3 CHA.

You start off with the following (relevant) skills :
L4 electronics, L5 mining, L5 refining, L2 industry (not so good), L3 science (enough for cybernetics L1 right off the bat)
Also, don't forget L4 instant recall (eidetic memory instantly available), L2 analytical mind and L1 learning.

It does need a bit more training before it gets into a Covetor as a Minmatar Engineer, but the start in learning is a lot better and none of the higher level skills are bad at all.
___

Train L1 Cybernetics, plug in full set of +3s (charisma optional).
Train Eidetic Memory right after.
After about ONE hour (and a few minutes, L1 eidetic memory done) past char creation, you char attributes will look like this:
19.38 MEM, 16.32 INT, 11.22 PER, 9.18 WIL and 6.12 CHA (or just 3.06)

Train L3 eidetic memory, train L4 analytical mind, L3 Logic and L4 learning, then all other basic skills to L4 and advanced to L3. Should only take about a week and a bit or so (depending on patience, not missing trains, etc).
Atributes one week down the road ?
22.68 MEM, 22.68 INT, 19.44 PER, 17.28 WIL and 14.04 CHA (or even only 6.48 or just 3.24, depending what you plugged in and trained).

You can go on and train L4 advanceds and later even L5 basics and even L5 learning, or also go for +4 attribute implants, but it would be pretty overkill... and take an extra month and a half, at least, if not more than two months (too lazy to calc all possible combos including and excluding cha, really).
That all for (at best) a 26.2 mem/int, 23.1 per and 20.9 wil (those last two, after you get exhumer L5, WIL is useless, and after you finished the relevant drone skills, per is useless too).

Ok, so you MIGHT want to go for the int/mem ones (at least advanced L4 learnings). But don't bother with the rest.

One week (or two weeks and a bit if you go for int/mem L4 advanced) of training into "learning" is all what it really takes... rest pays off way too much later, and therefore you shouldn't really bother Twisted Evil

Reycks Armunicus
The Scope
Posted - 2007.04.27 01:18:00 - [16]
 

Wish I'd seen this when I'd started!

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.04.27 08:03:00 - [17]
 

Very nice guide. Dont particularly disagree with anything in it. Pity it was not around when I created my char Wink. But then again Achura was not around then either, nor khanid.

Anyway. As Akita posted general rule of thumb is

Combat Character : Perc/Int/Will/Mem/Cha
Non Combat : Int/Perc/Mem/Will/Cha

That is for main characters. And balanced stats are the best for main characters - main reason being that getting your stat from 10 to 20 doubles your training speed on that stat while getting from 20 to 30 gives you just 33% of training speed. As that heavy specialization comes usually on expence of other stats then with balanced stats you will maximise your SP over longer timeperiods (as main characters need to train quite various skills usually). Heavy specialization in stats is usually best left to alts.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.05.25 16:59:00 - [18]
 

A note to those that ask wether they should (re)start a new character on the same account (and leave the initial character not training anything)... a word of warning: even if you have pretty "bad" attributes for a combat pilot (say, insanely high charisma and not much perception/intelligence), when you start a new char, comparing the learning speed with learnings done and implants plugged in, you'll notic the difference isn't all that great, best case scenario you get a 50% relative training speed, but usually much, much less.

The only moment where starting a new char would be acceptable would be if you already have all the needed skills "your main" uses right now, so you'd basically be training things you don't use. For instance, if you're a L4 mission runner and you can already run all missions AND you're unhappy with your attributes (not very likely, but meh, can happend), you might want to consider starting a new char... otherwise, don't bother.
___

Rule of thumb is, if you plan to spend at least 3 to 4 times more playing the game compared to time already invested, then maybe, just maybe you should consider a "reroll". Now, depending on just HOW BAD the "unwanted" attributes are, there are cases where you must spend even more than 5 or 6 times longer in-game to warrant a re-roll.

Bottom line is, the longer you've been playing, the less advisable a reroll is.
If you have more than 1 mil SP in learning, or if you have more than 4 mil SP total, really, DON'T BOTHER rerolling, it's probably just a waste of your time.

Oblio Mentat
Gallente
Dissonance Corp
Libertas Fidelitas
Posted - 2007.05.29 01:25:00 - [19]
 

There could be another strategy (more accurate but more work needed) used to guess the best attributes for whatever you'd like to do.

-Download EveMon.

-Save a character of your choice as XML.

-Build a plan for it. This would be an ideal plan so it should be a LONG plan, aka 1200 days (yes 4 years). Don't forget to include in the plan all the advanced learning skills to at least 4.

-Save the plan.

-Load the modified XML into a new character checking the update when xml file is modified checkbox.

-Start changing the initial attributes and observe how the plan total time varies.

For my 1540 days plan I have to say the the Achura inventor in the table above is actually doing 60 days worst than an Achura monk... So it despite the fact that the formula is very good it is not perfect.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.05.30 05:25:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/05/2007 05:26:03
There's a simple reason for that "60 days" advantage of the monk vs the inventor Wink

Would your 4-year plan mostly include all sciences/electronics/engineering skill to L5 or somesuch, you'd see a vast improvement with the inventor (with +4 base INT compared to monk)... but as a combat character "build", you'll be facing mostly high-rank ship command and weapon improvement skills, so the monk would definetely come out on top (with +2 base each PER/WIL compared to inventor).

By the way, have you added to those basic attributes the 5 custom points in your plans ? If yes, how much and where ?
And, have you used implants in your skillplan ? If yes, when did you consider them plugged in, and what implants ?
___

Still, it's 60 days out of over 1500, so a mere 4% "disadvantage"... try to compare that to what happends with other builds, like, for instance, any gallente intaki Twisted Evil
In retrospect, I think I lost almost as much training time (percentage-wise) by simply forgetting (or not being able to) login to change my skill when last one finished... lost at least 8-10 day's worth of training in the last year on this char, if not more (one extended downtime here, one vacation there, falling asleep and not switching to a longer skill, bad network, skill finishing while in traffic jam trying to get home, stuff like that).

P.S.
This char has all attributes at 9 except charisma, which is at 3.
That can be acheived by both monk and stargazers.
After learning and implants, it has NOW 24.2 in each attribute (except 17.6 in charisma).

Kaylee Kaitlen
Gallente
Lutin Group
Posted - 2007.06.01 15:16:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Reycks Armunicus
Wish I'd seen this when I'd started!


/signed

(as someone who picked the 5th "worst" option, and I don't even like my appearance that much!)

GraylStorm
Gallente
Asgard Industries
Safe And Fun Environment
Posted - 2007.06.01 16:04:00 - [22]
 

/signed

I Chose Gallente Intaki, with low PER and am I ever paying for it

Ship wise I alsmot need to take a break from the game to train any ship whatsoever 30+ days on anything ugh

Gray

Asiela
Posted - 2007.06.03 21:55:00 - [23]
 

Ok, i have created this character with the intention of it being able to fly primarily minmatar/amarr recons and other t2 minmatar ships.

Thanks for the info, and fyi i am an Achura Monk Female with base stats 12Per/9Int/7Mem/8WP/3Cha but after 1 hour ingame now up to 17 intel/12mem.

2007.06.03 21:23
Training of the skill Cybernetics to level 1 has been completed.

ftw.

General Apocalypse
Amarr
Ship Research
Posted - 2007.06.05 04:43:00 - [24]
 

This is a big bunch of .... I started whit Amarr Amarr Whel and got more SP atm then a achura monk that started at the same time whit me.

And if this is a call to get evrey new player to have a face puked achura male the no.

You post is racist Razz

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.05 06:34:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 05/06/2007 06:54:54
Edited by: Akita T on 05/06/2007 06:47:17
Originally by: General Apocalypse
This is a big bunch of .... I started whit Amarr Amarr Whel and got more SP atm then a achura monk that started at the same time whit me.

YOU: Per 4, Int 7, Mem 9, Wil 10, Cha 4 -> in the MIDDLE of the "versatility" table
MONK: Per 9, Int 8, Mem 6, Wil 8, Cha 3 -> on the TOP of the "versatility" table

It also matters WHERE you placed your extra 5 points... say you picked +3 per and +2 int, while the monk went bonkers and perhaps picked +3 cha and +2 mem, I don't know.
That would make your char 7/9/9/10/4, while the monk 9/8/8/8/6.
Obviously, your char would have been better off with that, quite a lot better off actually.
But if the monk would have picked +1 int, +3 mem, +1 wil, that would have been a 9/9/9/9/3, which is quite good.

For instance, you could have picked amarr engineer, but the monk would have picked soldier, for instance.
If you went for cybernetics, +3 or better implants, and learning skills ASAP, while the "monk" char didn't (and focused on combat skills first), it's obvious you'd have more SP as the monk in not a very long time.

With poor planning, you can screw up even the best character pick, and with good planning and good use of ISK you can make any poor pick decent, given enough time.
It's all in the details Twisted Evil


Given similar skill training paths (i.e. near-optimal ones), and given proper "custom" attribute picks, on a "generalist" skill path, the initial table is right.
If you plan to specialize, of course, the table changes SLIGHTLY according to what specialisation you wish to pursue.

Also, the more you "do the learnings", the less differences actually remain between picks.
It matters a lot what school you pick, as engineering/prospector has the best head start in learning, being able to overtake a combat specialist that neglects learnings in a matter of months... yes, that means in "actual", useful skillpoints, ignoring those in learning.
___

P.S. My char was created on the 17th of March 2006, and it spent over 60 days NOT training any skills (due to it being suspended). It also means it was created back when L5 basics were required for L1 advanceds, and it started with only around 100k SPs, so about 700k less as characters nowadays. You can further remove another 15 days or so easily if this char would have been created with the new "skill starter packs".

That means, if I would have created this char TODAY, followed almost the same training path (optimized for today's startup skillpacks and prerequisites), then by this time next year I would have almost identical skills like I have now, with a total of almost 16 mil SP spread evenly across most of the skill trees (neglecting only trade, corp management and leadership).

Angus Torg
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.06.08 13:19:00 - [26]
 

WOW! Thanks Akita - I am not the last in the list...

*whine*

And you said 20% behind doesn't matter? If I had 20% more skillpoints, then I already had ... *think* ... *dothemathagain* ... 72M? 12M skillpoints gap - and that doesn't matter?

Somehow I don't understand Caldari humor. Really.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.08 15:55:00 - [27]
 

Considering that high-rank skills are seldom prerequisites for other skills (the lower the rank, the more likely it is they are prerequisites for something)...
Considering that from zero to L4 in a skill you only need under 46k*rank SPs, but for L5 you need 210k SPs more (so basically, L4 is less than 20% of the total SPs needed for L5... trained a skill, get it to L3/L4 anyway, L5 can wait)...
Considering that on a seriously old char you quite probably have the vast majority of lower-ranking skills trained to L5, and only the higher-ranking ones that interest you at L4...

...then yeah, specialisation-wise, 20% extra SP on an already high SP total char would translate in roughly 3% to 4% of your total number of non-L5 skills you "have now" at L4 brought up to L5.

Other than the timesinks (which you'll have behind you anyway), when it comes to counting L5 skills, character age can pretty much tell you (roughly) the number of ranks in L5 skills, regardless of character attributes/implants.
It's just how EVE skilling up works, sadly. Or thankfully. Maybe both.

Snou Snou
Posted - 2007.06.08 18:23:00 - [28]
 

This should be as sticky as a p0rnstar after a shoot.Surprised

Jodie Amille
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2007.06.09 18:49:00 - [29]
 

Very nice guide Smile

I wish this had been around before I made this character, 28p/22c(gotta love the base charisma for ni-kunni -.-) and the rest of my attributes at 20 is a bit of a waste(all with +4's). Battleship 5 in under 30 days is win, but the support skills take soooo long.

I'm just adding my support to the "play whatever race/bloodline that suits you" statement. I could have made a typical achura char(no offense to anyone) as an alt and been a bit better off, but I love the looks and background of the amarr race and bloodlines and haven't regretted it yet(and likely never will). Plus I like being different Razz

Zhett Haukes
Mutually Assured Distraction
Posted - 2007.06.09 19:55:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Zhett Haukes on 09/06/2007 20:02:05
This is a useful guide, and I am going to use the thread to ask an opinion on my stats.

I am primarily a combat character and with almost 500k SP in learning my stats are as follows:

Intelligence 19
Perception 16
Charisma 8
Willpower 15
Memory 15

I only have the lvl V learning skills left to boost my perception and all the other attribute are at least lvl 2 (most lvl 3) in the advanced skills.

What are the communities views on these skills? I am not too attached to my character yet and having just started an alt with stats as follows:

Int 9
perc 11
char 3
will 9
mem 7


I wonder if I would maybe be better off using the "alt" as the "main" in the long run?

On the other hand, my current character's stats are relativly balanced... I just need to get rid of this niggle in the back of my mind saying "change before it's too late"


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