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welsh wizard
Caldari
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.03.24 01:49:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 24/03/2007 01:46:59
Originally by: Sir Winston Churchill
Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others.


Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government. It isn't perfect but then neither is the human race. Communism and Socialism may sound fantastic on paper but the human agenda kinda lets both doctrines down.

I guess in this game corporations tend to be run in a militaristic fashion and there is no democracy in the armed forces.

Sextus Licinius
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.03.24 02:05:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: munchy
Originally by: Sextus Licinius


2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online




i was part of 2 corporations for over a year in each, both were democratic corps and both worked superbly, one corp being alcatraz a high established and respected pvp corp.

you sir, are letting your ass do the talking.


So your corps worked superbly, you mean like you guys didn't steal each others veldspar? Or is it perhaps that you would benefit more from just enjoing your playtime with them and make even MORE isk and have fun together? I think this second variant is the right answer.
You see this was exactly my point, you worked so great with them because you fulfilled each others needs, so if i gave you an astarte bpo to give it to my aunt DB Preacher you would steal it 99.9% because 60-70 bilions or whatever it costs it would fulfill your needs more than be online friends with me (assuming we're in the same corp).
The refference to my ass is cute indeed, but think about it; if right now my ass is doing the talking imagine what i can do when i type LaughingLaughing

Dahin
Caldari
Maza Nostra
HELL4S
Posted - 2007.03.24 02:11:00 - [33]
 

If you can't trust someone, he can't be your friend.
If you have no friends, you're better off playing a single player game, or "roleplay" a very, very "bad guy".

Those "bad" guys live like shooting stars. They have their fun but then they burn out because if you can't be part of a community, eve is not for you in the end.


Did you get frequent visits from the underpant gnomes to feel so insecure? :P

Sextus Licinius
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.03.24 03:08:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Dahin
If you can't trust someone, he can't be your friend.
If you have no friends, you're better off playing a single player game, or "roleplay" a very, very "bad guy".

Those "bad" guys live like shooting stars. They have their fun but then they burn out because if you can't be part of a community, eve is not for you in the end.


Did you get frequent visits from the underpant gnomes to feel so insecure? :P


The thread is supposed to be a public discution that could help the community be more carefull about trusting just anyone with a voice on comms and perhaps safeguarding better the team effort of hundreds of alliance members. I appologize if i have failed you, but your reply doesn't make much sense to me.

Le Skunk
Gallente
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2007.03.24 03:25:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Doppleganger

{edit} WTF the filter removed f-e-g from the word s-a-f-e-g-u-a-r-d-s?


Come on you know what f-e-g means. I demand he is banned!!

SKUNK

patteSatan
Caldari
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.03.24 05:35:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: patteSatan on 24/03/2007 05:32:36
doublethingie, sorry

patteSatan
Caldari
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.03.24 05:36:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: patteSatan on 24/03/2007 05:33:06
Originally by: Allen Deckard
Originally by: Arii Smith
It is a lot easier to trust one ironfisted CEO than everyone else is the corp.

I would really rather not live in a democracy IRL or online, the trouble with the people getting what they want is that they are stupid and short-sighted, greedy and capricious.

Not everyone is qualified to lead, in fact a very few are. The dictatorships with good dictators are very successful.


Name me one rl successfull dictator country and I can name 10 asshat dictators.


*snip* - removed references to real life politics. -Ivan K


patteSatan
Caldari
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.03.24 05:38:00 - [38]
 

*snip* Don't discuss the profanity-filter - email us if you have any thoughts on the subject. -Ivan K

darkfuntime
Minmatar
Infinite Improbability Inc
Posted - 2007.03.24 06:10:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online.

A democratic style could work but eve is missing one thing Accountability.Without accountability you cant have a democratic anything,nor a king.Stealing from a corp/corp member is so easy and even if you get busted you can play eve.So democratic style play with eve is a mute point.Without repercussions what we really have is Anarkey (sorry about the spelling)with some good corps/players trying to play with some guidelines yet they have no recourse.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.24 08:39:00 - [40]
 

Hmm Sextus if you would give me an Astarte BPO I would for sure not give it to DB Preacher.Laughing

But the main reason would be, that DB Preacher is not the kind of person I am on friendly terms with, nor do I wish to have him friendly.Rolling Eyes

Still would not want to come into a situation were stealing is an option. So I would also warn you about trusting such an expensive Item to me. On the other Hand, if you give me the BPO, to hold it until a person that I have also on positive standings comes online, then I would not hesitate to do as you asked and transfer the BPO.

Why? Because there are more needs than money. Trust and Honor are immaterial and can not be quantified in ISK. Sure, EVE is an online game, but behind the avatars are real person and as I came to believe, sometimes even friends.

So I would transfer the mentioned Astarte BPO, because even billions of virtual money cannot by me trust, honor and friendship of the persons behind the games avatars..


Asylum Seaker
Minmatar
Celtic Anarchy
Force Of Evil
Posted - 2007.03.24 09:35:00 - [41]
 

I beleive that eve is quite suited to democracy, due to the small scale of corporations. Looking from the outside in, burn eden for example appears to be a successful direct democracy. They all have director access. There is no ceo. They make decisions together. It works because of the ease of communication in the eve reality, and the relative simplicity of decisions that need to be made.

Dictatorships are better for massive alliances full of idiots. Beuracracy kills such behemoths. Quick decisions need to be made for alot of things. This can't be done if you need to call a vote every time something goes down.

Originally by: welsh wizard

Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government. It isn't perfect but then neither is the human race. Communism and Socialism may sound fantastic on paper but the human agenda kinda lets both doctrines down.



Bahhh.. Democracy is governmental, socialism is economic. Never heard of democratic communism?

Topaz Skydiver
Minmatar
Narrative Freshfood
Posted - 2007.03.24 10:21:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 24/03/2007 10:25:16
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game.


At some point the CEO needs to trust someone, except he wants to do everything on it's own and risk that some members leave, because of that.

Trust grows over months and years.
Over time the CEO gets to know his mates and usually gives more rights and power to some players, who he thinks he can trust, who might be valuable in a higher position or who he wants to reward with it, because they have done good things for the corp.

And getting to know someone is the most important thing, before you trust someone by 100%.

If I was CEO of a big corp, there would be a small inner circle with 'buddies' that have proven that they are reliable in difficult situations. Over time some newer guys could enter this circle, if they fit in aka have become good buddies, who seem to share similar thoughts about the corp and the game.
So that would be the inner circle with people with full power.

Below that would be other 'managers', who have their responsibilities, but don't have full power and don't know everything that the leadership knows or plans that are not for the public yet.

And below that the usual member, who sometimes gets asked about his opinion, when needed or can make his suggestions, but the final decisions would be only made by the CEO and his buddies/directors in the inner circle, who play the role of advisors in that case.

That would be my approach to trust in EVE corps.
Trusting noone doesn't work, trusting everyone can't work, treating all members equally can't work imho either. Some members are simply more important to a corp than others, especially long-term members, who have already done a lot for that corp.

Aya Otosaki
Amarr
Assero Argentum
Posted - 2007.03.24 10:49:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Sextus Licinius
Example: You think Molle's empire runs on trust? You think he would be ready to lose his tens of thousands of dollars, i mean isk sry, because some nerd with his finger up his nose and the other one in his rear starts stealing titan and mamaship BPO's?


yup i think molles empire runs on trust.

FreelancerAlpha
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.03.24 11:28:00 - [44]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])

prsr
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.03.24 11:47:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Sextus Licinius
Fear makes a human being decent


Rolling Eyes

thoth foc
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2007.03.24 12:00:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard
Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government.


The illusion of democracy suited to the human race.. it lets everyone think they have the power to do something, without the accountability.. and this only really works on mass, which the size of corps currently, this doesnt really give

patteSatan
Caldari
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.03.24 12:18:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: welsh wizard
Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government.


The illusion of democracy suited to the human race.. it lets everyone think they have the power to do something, without the accountability.. and this only really works on mass, which the size of corps currently, this doesnt really give


I can quote that anyday....
INGAME we need ceo's, alliance leaders and so on, who wont let us do stupid stuff.


Asylum Seaker
Minmatar
Celtic Anarchy
Force Of Evil
Posted - 2007.03.24 12:25:00 - [48]
 

All those ceos and alliance leaders are still in the lead due to a form of democracy. The power of the group comes from the people within it. And those people only give their aid to the group if they agree with the direction the group is going. Otherwise, they leave.. and take a little peice of the groups strength away with them.

Ace Frehley
Minmatar
Mercenaries of Andosia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.03.24 12:39:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: patteSatan
Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: welsh wizard
Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government.


The illusion of democracy suited to the human race.. it lets everyone think they have the power to do something, without the accountability.. and this only really works on mass, which the size of corps currently, this doesnt really give


I can quote that anyday....
INGAME we need ceo's, alliance leaders and so on, who wont let us do stupid stuff.


I like to do stupid stuff and I know you like to do stupid stuff aswell patte Razz



Sextus Licinius
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.03.24 13:48:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: darkfuntime
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online.

A democratic style could work but eve is missing one thing Accountability.Without accountability you cant have a democratic anything,nor a king.Stealing from a corp/corp member is so easy and even if you get busted you can play eve.So democratic style play with eve is a mute point.Without repercussions what we really have is Anarkey (sorry about the spelling)with some good corps/players trying to play with some guidelines yet they have no recourse.


That's a very valid point, i stand corected and overall very nice replies guys.

Daelin Blackleaf
Gallente
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.03.24 15:09:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 24/03/2007 15:09:13
Democracy in-game and out cannot work due to the fact that the majority of people are remarkably stupid. The people/members often have little idea what is best for them, let alone what is best for the majority.

The ideal situation is a benevolent dictator... perhaps king/queen is a more comfortable way of putting it due to the many negative associations we have with the word dictator. Although power corrupts there have been a large number of such worthies throughout history.

In a democracy the people are placated, and will generally take a huge amount of abuse before rebelling. Law after law can be passed, which have no benefit to the people, in the name of security. Slaves can be held through currency if not through chains. The few can be elevated and corruption out of control because everyone is scrabbling to the top.

The people act in a manner similar to the lobster who is slowly boiled and doesn't realise getting out of the pot is a good idea.

However in a kingdom/empire a poor ruler will soon find his decrees ignored, his taxmen slain, and the people rebelling if he does not pay them some degree of respect. The leader is secure in their position and has no need to do the popular thing. They are instead free to do, what they consider, the right thing. He is in the end fully responsible for his actions, he cannot pass the buck when his tenure is up, he cannot blame his advisors (well he can, but the fault is ultimately his own for listening or for not procuring better advisors).

I see modern day democratic leaders getting away with "Let them eat cake." style blunders, massive corruption, and a complete lack of concern for what they actually feel is the right thing to do. A few hundred years ago such people would find themselves a few inches shorter very quickly.

In EvE Democracy is perhaps even worse. Due to small group sizes every single muppet can have a vote on every single issue if you wish to take it that far. Even a group of relative genius' all have their areas of expertise and their areas of idiocy. Asides from this all of the above examples of issues with democracy apply. I'll admit no group can be made perfect, none can be immune to corruption, or popularity contests, or foolhardy decisions. However democracy actually promotes these things.

The beauty of EvE is what I consider to be the only form of democracy worth having... the ability to vote with your feet. If you don't like your CEO or your corp/alliances system of leadership it's easy to leave and find one fitting to your personal tastes. Unlike real life you don't lose most of your assets, buddies, or face language/cultural issues. In addition most alliances you seek entry with won't require you to apply for green card / get deported / get shot at the border... at least not if you ask nicely. Laughing

[EDIT: I was carrying so many words I managed to drop a few]

Silentbrick
Caldari
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2007.03.24 16:40:00 - [52]
 

Okay, so if there is no trust in EVE, no well, williness to share and give something of yourself to others....how in the world does my corp exist?

Eve University is dedicated to the selfless ideal of older players teaching the new ones how to play. We donate our time, our isk and our efforts to giving others the chance to learn the game in a corp that really does give a sense of family and friendship. We don't ask for anything in return, service is it's own reward.

As for me, no amount of isk could equal the fun I have leading these wild and crazy noobs into battle, watching them discover Eve, showing them wonders like what a level four looks like and hearing their comments as they find out just how massive and varied this game is.

There is trust in Eve...but as always, it must be earned.

Talen Reaper
Caldari
Old Timers Guild
Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
Posted - 2007.03.24 17:09:00 - [53]
 

Hmm I thought this was a game ..its faceless ....so there is no responsibility other than what you as a person brings to the table ...if you is an azzhat in RL then I would imagine you will be in EVE

Quincy TawHarr
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.03.24 17:39:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Silentbrick
Okay, so if there is no trust in EVE, no well, williness to share and give something of yourself to others....how in the world does my corp exist?


Obviously, it does not. Since the OP must be correct.
Decent advice I suppose, but its taken to a rather silly extreme. For a corp to exist there absolutly HAS to be trust. Otherwise everyone is just handing their resources to one person. There no sense of team accomplishment in that. In fact if I were a member of that corp I would probably leave, it would suck.
Security is important, but so is trust. The trick is to find the corporations "natural" balance of trust and security (which will also affect how democratic you are IMO). Like nations, this varies between entities and there is no one correct answer. What works for EVE-U may not work for E-O-D and may not work for MC or RA.

Sextus Licinius
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.03.25 01:01:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Silentbrick
Okay, so if there is no trust in EVE, no well, williness to share and give something of yourself to others....how in the world does my corp exist?

Eve University is dedicated to the selfless ideal of older players teaching the new ones how to play. We donate our time, our isk and our efforts to giving others the chance to learn the game in a corp that really does give a sense of family and friendship. We don't ask for anything in return, service is it's own reward.

As for me, no amount of isk could equal the fun I have leading these wild and crazy noobs into battle, watching them discover Eve, showing them wonders like what a level four looks like and hearing their comments as they find out just how massive and varied this game is.

There is trust in Eve...but as always, it must be earned.


Obviously some people are missing the point here. Your corp/alliance mates will always watch your back and you will watch theirs because this is how an organization obtain victories adding to the pool of the respectives organization glory, thus YOUR personal glory. Brothers in arms will always look for each other and that's a great thing, but when great ammounts of money come into play their loyalty that you people are confusing with camaradery can be priced.

Why is this happening? Because you are online, because you won't be punished, because online you fear nothing, because online your life is nothing more than a clone that it will be activated in a station near you and because your life online worth less than half a tier1 battleship (if you have some skills).

That's why i'm saying be carefull with your assets, not your manlove for another pilot Laughing

Natalia Fachiri
Minmatar
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
Posted - 2007.03.25 03:14:00 - [56]
 

I much prefer to ignore your advice and risk getting burned, Sextus, then take the other route and never find friends in the EvE-verse. Of course I wont give a random stranger all my stuff. But if I cant trust someone I have known for months or years to look after it and do as I ask with it, why should I even bother to play?

You are wrong, but not on all counts. You overgeneralized this. Some people really will do what you describe. But some wont. Some people return the wallet they find on the street, with all the money still in it, some return it empty and some just keep it. Same in EvE.

Rebellion
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.25 03:56:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Rebellion on 25/03/2007 03:56:21
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
Example: You think Molle's empire runs on trust? You think he would be ready to lose his tens of thousands of dollars, i mean isk sry, because some nerd with his finger up his nose and the other one in his rear starts stealing titan and mamaship BPO's?


Just because you can't trust your people doesn't mean we can't trust ours. It just means that you're a poor judge of character. Furthermore, just because you sell isk for real money doesn't mean we do too.

If you can't trust your corporation in EVE, you will not go very far. I don't blame you for not understanding why that is. Given that you think this is "Molle's Empire" suggests that you cannot think very well. Oh, and yes, we do operate on trust. We have since the beginning. It is why we are still here.

Nice troll. Don't make your corporation look even more pathetic than it already is. Don't give advice to other EVE corporations that would just make them worse. "Not trusting" is not the answer, but rather a correct placement of trust.

JimBob Moving
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.03.25 20:00:00 - [58]
 

For the OP, I am going to rebut your assertion that democracy doesn't work in eve by using the US as an example. In reality the US is a fully funtioning democracy. There are people who disagree with what goes on but they have the right to make their opinions heard. Just because we are in a democracy does not mean each individual is given control of the military or economic backbone of the country. Sure there are thefts and betrayals here and there but by and large most of the people stay true to the ideals and principles the country is based on. The fact that more people are happy and motivated under this system and the resulting increases in productivity outweigh the betrayals of trust necessary to run a democracy. Sure there are people that are more motivated by greed and they abuse that trust, but in the end the others that believe in the underlying ideals of that corp or nation work harder and the nation prospers. This is only possible of course when the people believe in the underlying ideals and in successful democracies like the US this remains true. In a game it is more difficult because there are fewer consequences for betrayal and there tends to be less trust in these situations. This is just a challenge for successful organizations.

The crack about Molle's "empire" is typical about what happens to prosperous and successful organizations. A bunch of bitter leaders/participants in less successful organizations project rationalizations at the organization that offends them. The BBC and CNN as well as some no-count countries come to mind here.

This is one of those threads that makes you lose faith in much of humanity. To all you bitter ******s comparing the US to a dictatorship I understand why you guys whine about the US, but it is sad that most of the people that do it hide behind the same military that pulled most of your asses out of the fire many times over the course of recent history. Confused

rgreat
Gallente
OEG
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.03.25 20:28:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: rgreat on 25/03/2007 20:34:43

Yawn...So boring.
This thread need more flame.

Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2007.03.25 20:53:00 - [60]
 

ofc do trust and loyalty have a place in a game. Not everyone you will meet will have the same principles but in the end its about how YOU want to play the game yourself.

Im not easily giving away stuff and tbh im most of the time considering i might lose it but thats a risk i will take. Afterall its "game money". Even if i lose all my money ill just cry about the lost friend who i trusted not about the virtual possession.

As for the corps, democracy can work, like a dictatorship and like communism. It depends on many factors. The amount of ppl, the out of game ties of the ppl and and and. In the end no system is perfect because it always leaves the possibility for 1 man, the ceo, to pull the plug.
Once you understood that youve many choices in eve to make. Do you trust ppl ? Join a corp. Want to share your stuff ? Give stuff to ppl on the risk of losing it. Be paranoid ? Make your own corp and be the ceo with limited access for your members. Be superparanoid ? Make your own corp just for yourself and your alts.

Since ive seen how BoB works i know that alot of stuff is for free while other stuff is locked and only accessable on a trust level. Personal managment and a good nose for ppl are here the only thing which keeps bad apples from spoiling. Something u have to admire them for.


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