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Sextus Licinius
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.03.23 18:32:00 - [1]
 

I'm making this post in the light of the recent events, i think people should stop moaning about being robbed and just make their alliances work.

1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).

2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online, because in a democratic organization the power belongs to the people/members and it takes only one "bad seed" to ruin the effort of thousands. That being said only dictatorial alliances/corps can "win" because there's only one person that controls and has access to everything and he needs people to reach his goals, he can throw some bones around to make his lieutenants happy, lieutenants provide some small victories for the members (the plebe) and the muppets that act as slaves and cannon meat and eat what members throw away.

Example: You think Molle's empire runs on trust? You think he would be ready to lose his tens of thousands of dollars, i mean isk sry, because some nerd with his finger up his nose and the other one in his rear starts stealing titan and mamaship BPO's?

I hope this helps.

dalman
Caldari
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.03.23 18:42:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online.

Hmm, I would think that EVE corp/alliances are quite democratic.
The difference to RL is the freedom to move in EVE. It's not very easy to move to another country IRL for alot of reasons.
One could argue that you vote in EVE, not very different to how you vote IRL, as you chose which person that will represent you by joining that corp/alliance.

quellious
Gallente
Talion Federal Navy
Opus Neith
Posted - 2007.03.23 18:45:00 - [3]
 

Hum,

For being in a democratic corp running from eve beta release, i can ensure you that democracy is a viable option in eve-online.

I'm not sure that democracy is a good excuse for failure.

Sextus Licinius
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.03.23 18:57:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: quellious
Hum,

For being in a democratic corp running from eve beta release, i can ensure you that democracy is a viable option in eve-online.

I'm not sure that democracy is a good excuse for failure.



This thread is an open discution regarding trust and loyalty and for the people that want to play in the "big league" not for the corps or alliances that have nothing to lose. They can't be affected by thievery and deceit if they own nothing. As far as i'm concerned they can be as democratic as they want without anyone caring about it.

quellious
Gallente
Talion Federal Navy
Opus Neith
Posted - 2007.03.23 19:08:00 - [5]
 

Indeed, we are speaking about entyties which have huge things to lose, like capitals, outposts, T2 BPO (like COCD), and such things.

And i maintain that there is not issue with democracy even if you handle assets worst several 100bils.

Just don't let people use the excuse of security to set a dictature.

Arii Smith
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.03.23 19:52:00 - [6]
 

It is a lot easier to trust one ironfisted CEO than everyone else is the corp.

I would really rather not live in a democracy IRL or online, the trouble with the people getting what they want is that they are stupid and short-sighted, greedy and capricious.

Not everyone is qualified to lead, in fact a very few are. The dictatorships with good dictators are very successful.

Fitz Chivalry
Gallente
Vengeance Imperium
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.03.23 19:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).


Sorry but this is *******s. There are plenty of people that I would trust in game and who act decently and fear has nothing to do with it, they are just good guys.

An asshat will always be an asshat and vice versa.

Chewan Mesa
Amarr
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2007.03.23 20:00:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online.

Hmm, I would think that EVE corp/alliances are quite democratic.
The difference to RL is the freedom to move in EVE. It's not very easy to move to another country IRL for alot of reasons.
One could argue that you vote in EVE, not very different to how you vote IRL, as you chose which person that will represent you by joining that corp/alliance.




QTF.

Oh and lol at saying TCF have nothing to lose.

Trinity Faetal
Gallente
Little Garden
Posted - 2007.03.23 20:32:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).


Sorry but this is *******s. There are plenty of people that I would trust in game and who act decently and fear has nothing to do with it, they are just good guys.

An asshat will always be an asshat and vice versa.


people like virtuozzo ?

Havras
Caldari
The Syndicate Inc
Posted - 2007.03.23 20:36:00 - [10]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2007.03.23 20:50:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Doppleganger on 23/03/2007 20:48:51
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).


Sorry but this is *******s. There are plenty of people that I would trust in game and who act decently and fear has nothing to do with it, they are just good guys.

An asshat will always be an asshat and vice versa.



QFT

I know of a few corps that were dictatorships and guess who the corp thief was in all those situations? The one person that had their hand in all the cookie jars.

Someone wants to steal it doesn't matter what kind of corp/alliance it is. It only matters that the proper safeguards are in place to keep it from happening.

*snip* Don't discuss the profanity-filter - email us if you have any thoughts on the subject. -Ivan K

Koronos
Minmatar
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.03.23 21:02:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Sextus Licinius
<snip>
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man"


Your sig shed's a bit of light on your take here, however just because the pain of bitterness and/or disillusionment has caused you to make this choice does not mean that everyone has.

Originally by: Sextus Licinius
I hope this helps.


It may help ignore that pain to believe this, but it doesnt have to be that way.

There are many choices that I have made in my course in eve that have not been to my advantage in isk, or happyness and fun - at least in the short term. If I am indeed wearing a mask, it is one of honor, and it does not come off, even if rent by sharp claws.

Koronos

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2007.03.23 21:15:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Arii Smith
It is a lot easier to trust one ironfisted CEO than everyone else is the corp.

I would really rather not live in a democracy IRL or online, the trouble with the people getting what they want is that they are stupid and short-sighted, greedy and capricious.

Not everyone is qualified to lead, in fact a very few are. The dictatorships with good dictators are very successful.


Name me one rl successfull dictator country and I can name 10 asshat dictators.

you really are being serious that you would rather live in a place where you have no choices that honestly amazes me really it does. A place with no choices is what I call prison, it's a punishment in my society.

Macmuelli
Gallente
Meltd0wn
Posted - 2007.03.23 21:17:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Macmuelli on 23/03/2007 21:15:01
I think there is only smal ways protecting yourself against robbery etc..

Never give out worthfull stuff.


There is always the option setting roles to parts in the corp hangar etc. that only a small group have acess to it.


a idea for the future ...
To protect yourself against robbery then is an " branding" and "setting a role" of this item.

" branding " means it s not possible for other ppls to put it into there hangars.
( so no more stealing)

" setting a role " means this item can be used for other ppls to set it into production etc.. but not possible to put it into there own hangars.

If the owner of this item wanna trade it etc. he had to accept a trade etc first.

This woud defentiv end up this s... of stealing.


Honor in online games?
U can do what u want (if u dont do anything against the eula etc.) without getting anything bad out of it.
Noone will knock on your door if u be alltime anonym, and dont out yourself on fanfest s or setting picture s of yourself into the net.

The questions are : If this kind of criminal is wanted?
At least coud be come a negativ drawback out of it?
Will ppls stop playing if the cannot trust anyone supported by...?

At least if i woud invest energy for a lot of isk , bying something special and woud be scammed or getting robbed without a chance to get it back my invested time.
I m not sure anymore investing time again.




Liora Vahan
Gallente
Star Of Athena
Posted - 2007.03.23 21:25:00 - [15]
 

*snip* - don't discuss real life politics. -Ivan K

Serenity Steele
Caldari
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2007.03.23 22:27:00 - [16]
 

Meh, you can have democracy in leadership and membership, but you need a good asset security setup to stop the random bad seeds having an impact.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2007.03.23 22:34:00 - [17]
 

*snip* - don't discuss real life politics. -Ivan K

Sextus Licinius
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.03.23 22:57:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Sextus Licinius on 23/03/2007 22:55:02
There were a lot of incidents of trust abuse when one could give his left nut to vouch for a person and they were wrong. A person online when he's faced with the posibility to gain possesion of some valuable stuff cares less about his "online friends" and more about himself. I have so many examples that i wouldn't know where to start, but i won't name anyone because everyone knows what will happen.

The bottom line is this: an online dude is very unpredictable even if you think you know him. If a guy doesn't have to play by the rules to win, he won't and certainly in any online game common sense laws are not implemented. Of course there are exceptions, but better be safe than sorry.

[EDIT] Oh and to any anyone making refference to real life, my answer is this - Laughing

Black Torment
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.03.23 23:08:00 - [19]
 

Regardless of it being online, behind that character there is a person, and a lot of the people I play with are good people. And they know the same about me. It does only take one bad seed to bring things down but you can take sensible measures to reduce that risk, i.e, reduced access.

Even if you run the game yourself, someones always gonna be trying their hardest to **** things up for you. Democracy is a good thing because nobody is perfect and discussion brings out the flaws in plans, plus when things go wrong theres more people to fall back on, and more people to help sort things out.

Democracy therefore only works when the people in the top seats are willing to listen to each other, and aren't trying to play the dictator game regardless.

Shamis Orzoz
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.03.23 23:19:00 - [20]
 

Democracy definitely fails in eve. Eve has given me a whole new perspective on the dictators throughout history. How many of them were evil, and how many just did what they had to do get the job done?


Ivo D
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.03.24 00:13:00 - [21]
 

you are missing the big picture.

there is no democarcy in eve. there is no dictatorship as well.

it is all based on CORPORATIONS, which are involved in business.

the ceo/founder/owner of a corporation runs that corporation the way he/she deems to be most successfull. some choose a more direct aproach in which they control everything. if u r good at it the corp works well. some choose to have more high-class top directors, in a more deocratic way of governing the corporation.


but the thing is... you can always choose to leave. you always have another option. IRL living under dictatorship in many cases leaves you with very few options on how to develop your own life.

unlike real life, as i already said, in eve it is about corporations/companies. it is about private property. if u r the owner - it is totally up to you what u want to do with it. if you are an employee, you can choose wether you want to work for that employer, even if he/she is tiranic. YOU STILL HAVE THE CHOICE

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2007.03.24 00:35:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: HankMurphy on 24/03/2007 00:31:58
hmm... i think your looking at it from the wrong angle.

from the trust point of view, EITHER dictatorship or democracy can be screwed by one person. its happened time and time again to both forms in this game.

Sure, dictatorship typically has fewer ppl w/ their hands in the cookie jar, lessening the odds of a bad apple causing catastrophic damage, but as was mentioned above, what if the leader is the one that is the bad apple?

i think its very accurate to say democratic style govt in alliances commonly fail, but i dont think its for this trust/loyalty reason. Fact is when you get that many ppl involved in the decision making progress, the 'red tape' aspect can wreak havoc more than anything.

No one man can do it all, no matter what you will have to delegate and trust to a certain extent in both styles of govt (and everything in between.) But since this is an online game, you can only trust another person so much (unless you good friends in RL).... so there lies the fallacy in the OP.... form of govt aside you can be screwed by a spy/malicious member no matter what.

While many of you are correct the iron fist approach is the most effective, its not because the dictator doesn't have to trust ppl, thats just silly. Why are dictator govt's more successful than others (typically)?? thats a question for another thread :)

Arderich
Amarr
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
A.R.K.
Posted - 2007.03.24 00:35:00 - [23]
 

Quote:
Democracy is a proven failure throughout the known Universe and has undermined many civilisations and been the death of many great organisations.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2007.03.24 00:37:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Arderich
Quote:
Democracy is a proven failure throughout the known Universe and has undermined many civilisations and been the death of many great organisations.



as has misplaced trust in one all powerful (but ultimately lacking) dictator.

Gidien Kane
Amarr
OneHundredRed
Posted - 2007.03.24 00:37:00 - [25]
 

through my experience in eve I have found that there are allot of different people in eve just like in RL.

Some will shaft you with no qualms or remorse.

Some are so nice they will even help you out of game.

Some are so ****ed up that they will help themselves to your girlfriends or wives out of game. (I know of 3 such cases)

All in all i think it's a very good sample of real human behavior.


munchy
Amarr
Alcatraz Inc.
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2007.03.24 01:03:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Sextus Licinius


2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online




i was part of 2 corporations for over a year in each, both were democratic corps and both worked superbly, one corp being alcatraz a high established and respected pvp corp.

you sir, are letting your ass do the talking.

Poke InTheEye
Gallente
Anti-BoB Flash Mob
Posted - 2007.03.24 01:12:00 - [27]
 

*snip* - don't discuss real life politics. -Ivan K

Nyack
Minmatar
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2007.03.24 01:30:00 - [28]
 

there is a difference between democracy and sharing of assets and resources.

A corp can be fully democratic where all members have equal part in the decisions of the corp. what goals they shoudl have what policies, what code of conduct. that doesnt mean that all members have equal rights to all assets. true they all have a saying on how the assets are used but very few actually have access to the assets. i think that is the way almost all corps end up like.

A full dictatorship often doesnt work in eve cause as stated above if the corp members doesnt feel they are part of making a difference they move on to the next corp.

Corp = alliances in the above text written as corps for simplicity

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2007.03.24 01:32:00 - [29]
 

*snip* - don't discuss real life politics. -Ivan K

Zhaine
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2007.03.24 01:48:00 - [30]
 

Mmmmm, it's too late and I'm too tired to write things that are long, but I'd just like to say that I strongly disagree with almost every word in the OP.


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