open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked No Local a good thing (2nd try)
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5

Author Topic

iqplayer
Caldari
Dragon's Rage
Posted - 2007.03.21 16:00:00 - [91]
 

Isn't there enough balance issues within Eve already, without trying to introduce a mechanic that would change the balance of nearly everything in game?

Now, I'm sure those in favor of no local think this is overreacting, but think about it for a minute.....

1. Cloaks become an I-Win button. There are already few counters to a cloaked ship, he can sit in local invulnerable all day. With no local, you wouldn't even know he was around - in fact, I'd predict that within a couple days of no local, everyone in the game would be wearing a cloak. Think it's frustrating catching someone with local, when they run/dock/logoff? Imagine them cloaking the instant they see you in a belt...

2. Blobs become even more necessary than before. Again, I'm sure your first thought is that no local would favor the solo attacker. But, every single advantage that the solo attacker gains, the blob would gain. Plus, the blob is going to have the manpower to spare for things like scouts, guards, etc...

3. Intel gathering swings more in favor of the aggressor. Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned players in local on the map. This mechanism already favors the aggressor, since he has the ability to move around, and the map only shows people who sit still. Removing local now makes players in local on the map the easiest way to look for people - and it only shows the defenders, miners, and ratters.

Honestly, it's hard to even imagine how much could be affected. For example, it would change mining into either a solo activity (hiding in an out of the way system undetected - although there's still that nasty map problem) or a huge blob operation, that only the largest of organizations could handle. So, ore production would go down - probably drastically, since this would affect everyone in Eve. Can you imagine going back to an Eve where a Battleship is as hard to get as Capitals are now? Where you took frigates and cruisers into combat, not because you wanted to mitigate your risk, but that's all you could afford? Now, consider the fact that only the most massive of organizations would be able to build something like a Titan - which conveniently has a one button Pwn mechanism against frigates and cruisers......

Think about it. Think about what it would mean to *all* of Eve. I'm not saying it would all be a bad thing - but it's certainly a much bigger issue than many would like to paint it.

Nikita Fontaine
Caldari
g guild
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.03.21 17:07:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Godar Marak
Edited by: Godar Marak on 21/03/2007 15:56:05
Originally by: Nikita Fontaine


LoL i am not stating this is the current state of affairs in game. This is the scenario i believe would exist to a degree with the lack of local.


But you have this idea that the attacker always wins. that the attacker is somehow unable of being out smarted by someone mining. A few cloaked scorpions with all med slots filled with ecm, or a gang of ships at a safespot outside the grid and I would like to see how you cannot defeat the attackers.


Everyone dies, even pirates.


Firstly how many people do you know that sit mining with several friendly, cloaked, pvp ready ships nearby.

Secondly why would you take those precautions if you didnt know there was a hostile in local which you wouldnt as you cant see him arrive in local except by local number count of course.

hilaw
Posted - 2007.03.21 17:11:00 - [93]
 

The thing everyone who suggest miner's retaliate are not taking into the account you now need your miner to have say, 3 guards, one to remote repair, one to tackle and one to do the brunt of the damage. There are four people involved in the operation. The same amount of minerals as before are produced. Unless your planning to make mining 400% more profitable its just not worthwhile. Either you will have to NPC hunt in a complex, taking the key, work in a backwater with all gates monitored 24/7, which is thrilling, and a job that everyone really wants to do, and will again, do for free.

The most profitable route would be to PvP against each other, ransoming the now very expensive, and very uninsured ships. Rolling Eyes If miner's can't make a profit out of mining, greater than other activities, or at least equal, what motivation do they have for mining? Anyone not in an alliance will not be flying anything heavy in high ends, as they will likely either pay stupid amounts of isk for them (the very rich) or have to produce them by refining agent loot.

The problem is the nature of the current system, any awake pilot can see the entry into local, and can safe spot/log/dock. The solution? I don't know, but it certainly isn't swinging the balance in favor of those who produce nothing for the economy, because

IN> OUT


Is not a pretty picture for anyone who doesn't have a wallet thick enough to insulate them against rising prices!

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.21 17:18:00 - [94]
 

No local would not be good for anyone.

It would see many builders/miners leave 0.0 and lowsec entirely and move back to empire, overloading further the nodes that are already struggling.

That means that there will be less opportunity to buy things in 0.0. Which means less stuff to fight with.

It also means more time hunting. No longer would it be sufficient to just jump in system, acknowledge its empty then move on. You'd have to waste time probing the system, and using your scanner. And even then you couldn't be sure you didn't miss something. Means fewer fights.

It means less social contact in the game. It means no more those small local converstations. No more gfs, no more talking to the prey or to the aggressor.

All in all removing local is a very very bad idea for the game as a whole. If it was to be implemented I suspect in about 6 months time the game would lose upwards of half its subscriptions.

Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.03.21 17:39:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Nikita Fontaine

3) The Home Ground Defending Hunter - he may know there is a hostile in his home constellation but how the heck will he ever find it? except at the point the hostile attacks someone, by this time often too late, he then has to rush to wherever that fight is by then the hunter may have moved on ANYWHERE. This is the BIGGEST loser of them all. Only solution for him is to camp chokepoints 24/7 *fun not*.


I can see your other points from your perspective. But I don't think this is a valid point. The whole thing with local is that you know if someone is in system. You still don't know where they are in system which is what is inferred from your point. In your scenario, if the "home ground defending hunter" knew there is a hostile in system, then he would still have to go about finding said target the same way as if there was local.

Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.03.21 18:10:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf

It also means more time hunting. No longer would it be sufficient to just jump in system, acknowledge its empty then move on. You'd have to waste time probing the system, and using your scanner.


You mean you have to work for a kill? I'd imagine more people would enjoy searching for a target to kill than having all targets dock/safespot+cloak/logoff as soon as they enter local.

Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
Means fewer fights.

I don't think so. Most often people get caught up in the traditional "Oh, they have 10 in local so lets safespot till we have 10 more than them. Ok, lets attack. Oh they safespotted. Now they have 10 more, lets safespot ect." I think you'd actually get more fights by both sides in that you're unable to determine your opponents numbers in system just by looking at local. Also allows for a more tactical approach at combat. One example: have several other ships hidden elsewhere in system ready to warp in to reinforce once the opposing force has engaged thinking that they've engaged their enemy's entire force.

I believe I saw one in one of these no local threads, a person gave an example in which he and 5 other friends were in a system with 6 other hostiles in system (they could tell from local). However, 3 of his friends were afk so as far as he knew, the odds were 6:3. However, the other hostiles didn't engage either seeing the 6 (in local) they were up against and possibly even having an afk person or two of their own. The result was a mexican standoff where there was no fight.

I think removing local intel gathering would be greatly beneficial to pvp combat (1 gang vs. another, not 1 pirate vs. a ratter). On the other hand, I recognize that it would have the negative side affect of giving the miner/ratter a very hard time. Somehow, local intell gathering needs to be removed to improve pvp fights (2 sides that are looking for a fight), w/out dramatically hurting the miner/ratters. Some people suggested having non-static belts so that a pirate on the hunt would have to probe out the miner. This option has its merits in that a miner doesn't know if a pirate comes in local but that if he just does a scan once every 30-60 seconds then he should be able to see a scan probe and get to safety. (really is that so hard to do while the lasers carve at rock although it may mean that you have to spend more time playing the game than watching your favorite TV show or reading the forums while filling a can and mining new rock?)

Originally by: Bienurdau
It means less social contact in the game. It means no more those small local converstations. No more gfs, no more talking to the prey or to the aggressor.


Thats a minor point that can be easily worked around and implimented in a number of ways. Off the top of my head, you could impliment it such that you can type in local, but it doesn't show you in a list. This still allows for "gf"'s or friendly miner/ratting conversation but not knowing whether you jumped out of system or whether you stop talking.


Black Scorpio
Posted - 2007.03.21 18:38:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
Originally by: SonOTassadar


Both hunter and hunted have the same tools to find each other. How has the balance shifted?



I think what he means is that now the hunted have to do more than just watch local.
To this date, its been mostly pirates who have used scanners, heaven forbid greedy carebears who do nothing but fill their own pockets all day would be forced to actually play the game.


How often does a pirate need to scan while looking for targets in a system? (He doesn't need to scan many systems, predicting where potential targets will be is easy). 5 times? 10 times? Let's be generous and make it 20 times. A semi-smart pirate will just throw out a probe and be done with it of course, but lets ignore that for a sec.

Compare this to say, your average miner. He will be mining for say, 3 hours. A hostile can warp the 15 AU range of the scanner within 20 seconds. So he needs to scan with at least that frequency. Once ever 20 seconds (which still doesn't make him safe, considering the time it takes to align and warp a barge/exhumer). means 3 times per minute, means 180 times per hour, means 540 times over a three hour mining op. Hmmm. I see a difference there...



That's why you have security, as with anything in this game so should mining be involved in the idea of security at last.. PvP is all about the security of the systems, every one knows it noone questions it..

why would you not expect to watch over your shoulder when you are in a low sec? You want the better minerals, the better pay off, the better rats if you're ratting, but none of the danger..

and for all of you ironclad argumentative guys out there.. you are a miner someone else is a PvPer (or choose to be one that day). You chose to train mining skills, he chose to train PvP skills.. I don't really see the problem for you. If you start comparing, you would see that Mininng is much more ISK worthy than pure piracy, yet both sides do what they like.. why ? cauase it's their play style.. so .. you cannot base your opinion on the fact that you see are an innocent guy that's just harvesting ISK.. the "pirate" is also out for the same, in this case pirate's asteroids are your ships.. You have one GREATER mean for defense.. your wallets.. for once use them rather than sit there buy tows and brag about them.. ffs, hire a freaking corp or a group to do your watching.. there are crazy enough people for that job too..

You think you will be the one spamming the scan button? I myself spam it now quite often, with abour 20 hostiles at all times in system, that use probes, gatecamps and blobs to fight dirty, heck I they found me in a mission once.. and they are the miners in the system.. .so .. the question is why they can and you can't ????


Amphetaminer
Grumpy Old Men
Posted - 2007.03.21 18:48:00 - [98]
 

if there was a scanner that i could put on my mining ship and tell me when someone went into the system or people cant warp directly into shooting range of me sure go ahead. if not then goodbye mining.. If this where put in you could just jump into the system probe me, then warp to me, warp scramble me, kill me. And nothing i could do about it. Are you looking forward to sitting around all day watching 3 of your miner buddy's mine? no you are not. Noone is so dont force this upon people.

bigfatbird
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.21 18:57:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Godar Marak
Edited by: Godar Marak on 21/03/2007 15:56:05
Originally by: Nikita Fontaine


LoL i am not stating this is the current state of affairs in game. This is the scenario i believe would exist to a degree with the lack of local.


But you have this idea that the attacker always wins. that the attacker is somehow unable of being out smarted by someone mining. A few cloaked scorpions with all med slots filled with ecm, or a gang of ships at a safespot outside the grid and I would like to see how you cannot defeat the attackers.


Everyone dies, even pirates.


Not every miner has a ton of scorp alts or friends that want to spend an evening sitting cloacked at a belt or offgrid ss.

Athren Soulsteal
Gallente
Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair
Posted - 2007.03.21 19:02:00 - [100]
 

No local, this is a topic we discussed years ago. The first thing that those for and against removing local need to understand is why there is a local.

Every ship in the game has a transponder similar to modern aircraft; this allows them to be tracked through space and provides all information to the ship and from the ship through the gates. How do you know how far it is from your ship to the next gate, base, planet, field, and sun and well, actually everything? Because as soon as you enter a gate, your shipís transponder contacts the gate and gets a 3 dimensional position from and relative to the gate. At the same time your ship provides registry information such as name of ship, owner of ship sec rating of pilot as well as other information. From then on your shipís transponder stays in contact providing any and all information to the gate(s).

This is why concord knows when you have been good and rewards your efforts and also when you have been bad and lowers your sec rating. With out the transponder you would not get a kill mail showing what was used and who did what or what was lost. Without the transponder you could not file an insurance claim because there would be no proof of your ships destruction. The bottom line is that local exist because it has to in order to allow the civilization to be one.

Now that being said, I for one would have no problem ifÖ.

1. CCP first repeals all of the Prat welfare programs (criminals are treated as such). Put it back to before the welfare programs started where every criminal action was dealt with, criminals were not allowed to dock at any bases they are neg to. There was no imaginary line at .5 systems, concord responded to every illegal act just very very slowly in low sec. Of course act in 0.0 did not matter or count as that was not in empire space, also ratting in 0.0 did not help your empire sec rate.


2. Create a high slot module Dampen Transponder. If you donít want to be seen in local, activate the DT but keep in mind that just like in RL and almost every SCI-FI movie removing or dampening your transponder is an illegal act so if you do it by a gate or base you will take a sec hit for your illegal activity. Actually without the transponder you canít jump or dock. On the flip side, who ever you attack will not know who attacked them so their kill mails will only describe the ship class not the pilot or other information. Read this as no sec hit from the initial attack how ever since the person being attacked does have their transponder on the gate reports to concord that a ship is being attacked by unknown ship (s) so depending on what the sec rating of the system is you could have up to 15 min to leave the scene of the crime. Also using a DT makes your insurance invalid as there is no proof your ship was destroyed (if you turn it off before you get destroyed Concord will see it through the transponders of the other ships and thus you get a sec hit for DT your transponder and the attack)Razz


But seriously, until CCP first balances and removes the chasm between PVP and PVE rigged ships, requiring the use of probes not the directional locator and adds items such as decoy transponders having no local is a bad idea. Exclamation

Kruugore
Minmatar
Vigilant Justice
Posted - 2007.03.21 19:06:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus
shrug its hardly a "good" thing now as the balance is completely shifted to the hunter and there is nothing for the hunted.


QFT

If you want people to play a game. You don't want it to be lopsided.

If they remove local they'd have to
->Remove Asteroid Belts from overview, right-click and directional scanner
->Remove ALL Map statistics relating to human presence. It's only fair, Covert ops pilots don't want to be seen, but want to know where everyone is. They shouldn't have both ;)
->An alert when a stargate in the system is activated (it makes sense people, the stargate is a powerful device and could be detected)

Berand
The Scope
Posted - 2007.03.21 19:18:00 - [102]
 

Ugh. I shudder at the thought of getting in to a roving gang, going one hop, then scouting every belt, discover there are 0 people in the system besides you. Move to next system. Scout every belt, and maybe the station if there is one. Move to next system. Scout every belt. Repeat. This would make a lot of PvP so incredibly tedious. Two huge roving gangs could zip right by each other in the same system and never know, while before it would have resulted in some tense situations and big fights.

Like iqplayer said in an earlier post, I can't even imagine the far-reaching affects it would have on the game as a whole.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.03.21 19:35:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Berand
Ugh. I shudder at the thought of getting in to a roving gang, going one hop, then scouting every belt, discover there are 0 people in the system besides you. Move to next system. Scout every belt, and maybe the station if there is one. Move to next system. Scout every belt. Repeat. This would make a lot of PvP so incredibly tedious. Two huge roving gangs could zip right by each other in the same system and never know, while before it would have resulted in some tense situations and big fights.



Hi, I'd like to sell you this wonderful time-saving device I like to call a "Recon Probe Launcher". It slices, it dices, it peels! Buy 10, and I'll throw in some instructions on a secret utility used by those in the know as a sort of built-in "Directional Scanner". Wink

Athren Soulsteal
Gallente
Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair
Posted - 2007.03.21 19:44:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Tsanse Kinske


Hi, I'd like to sell you this wonderful time-saving device I like to call a "Recon Probe Launcher". It slices, it dices, it peels! Buy 10, and I'll throw in some instructions on a secret utility used by those in the know as a sort of built-in "Directional Scanner". Wink


Actualy, do a search in the forum database, the devs said that the Directional Scanner would NO LONGER show player ships. That was to happen some time before the next big kali.. err Rev patch.

Thats why they introduced the recon prob launcher. If you want to find players then you would have to use a probe launcher.

Maxine Blade
Posted - 2007.03.21 19:49:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Becq Starforged
Originally by: Maxine Blade
What if there were several changes? Here are some examples that can bring some balance (think submarine warfare).

- Module created that detects when someone does a Directional Scan. The Prey can mount these and are notified if Directional Scanning or probing is occurring (almost like passive sonar detecting active sonar pings)
- Make ECCM impact Directional Scanning. Today, Directional Scanning always works. Add something that makes Directional Scanning less effective is someone has ECCM

This will make people fit their ships to protect against probing/scanning. Also, pirates can still maintain stealth if they just want to belt hop, but not scan. Takes more effort, but that's the price of not using directional scanning.

Think of submarines.


I'm not generally in favor of removing local, as it gives even more advantage to the side of the conflict that really has most of the advantages already. That having been said, Maxine has some good ideas. Here's my twist on them:

1) Remove player ships from directional scans entirely. The only way to gain information on ships in the vicinity is to use probes. (Note that this incorporates Maxine's second idea, since ship probing already takes sensor strength into account.)

2) Probes are "loud"; everyone within the probe radius will get a notification of some sort that a probe has been activated, upon activation (but little more information than this). Gate activations should also generate a similar warning system-wide, including which gate was activated, and whether the activation was incoming or outgoing. These notifications should probably be found on a new tab in the scanner (to cut down on messages when in high-traffic systems or for players who don't care).

3) There might be value to adding an additional module (similar to a passive sonar) that grants additional information. For example, it might extend the notification to system-wide notification of probe attempts, and/or puts the location of the probe on the system map, and/or allows the owner to 'analyze' using his opponent's probe (possibly giving the owner information on the prober's location, unless the prober was careful to stay outside of the probe region).

4) Local in low-sec and 0.0 is modified to provide the player with a choice of settings: "broadcast" (this is equivalent to the current setting, causing the player info to be displayed in local), "fly colors" (the player shows up in local as an unidentifed member of his corporation/alliance), or "run silent" (the player does not show up in local). Anyone who posts in local would be switched to the "broadcast" setting. Note that all players would remain on broadcast in high-sec (due to CONCORD monitoring).

The above package gives *alert* players at least minimal warning of a potential hostile presence -- though if the hunter was running silent, they might not know if the hunter was a friend or foe. It also gives the hunter a greater degree of anonymity.


These enhancements are really great. I think if you do the above, the game will be way better and you can get rid of local!!! I hope the devs read this.

Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.03.21 19:56:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Berand
Ugh. I shudder at the thought of getting in to a roving gang, going one hop, then scouting every belt, discover there are 0 people in the system besides you. Move to next system. Scout every belt, and maybe the station if there is one. Move to next system. Scout every belt. Repeat. This would make a lot of PvP so incredibly tedious. Two huge roving gangs could zip right by each other in the same system and never know, while before it would have resulted in some tense situations and big fights.


Friend, I don't have to think about it because I've done it and will testify against that. For the 1-2hours where there was no local, we formed up a small gang of 6 to roam through the northern regions. It was a fast gang. Scout would continually scan while warping from one gate to the next, picking up anything in the inner systems on scan. We'd find targets, prep, blow them; all the while not knowing if reinforcements were in system to jump us. It was thrilling as far as pvp goes. Not slow, not tedious, and certainly not boring. Wink


Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:03:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Athren Soulsteal
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske


Hi, I'd like to sell you this wonderful time-saving device I like to call a "Recon Probe Launcher". It slices, it dices, it peels! Buy 10, and I'll throw in some instructions on a secret utility used by those in the know as a sort of built-in "Directional Scanner". Wink


Actualy, do a search in the forum database, the devs said that the Directional Scanner would NO LONGER show player ships. That was to happen some time before the next big kali.. err Rev patch.

Thats why they introduced the recon prob launcher. If you want to find players then you would have to use a probe launcher.


Well, I think your information isn't quite up to date then. :P

I was just as concerned that the customer...I mean, Berand, was checking every belt in every system *now* (just because he saw a couple of noobs in Local who were actually docked) when there are things already available that will increase the diligent ganksquad's KPS (killmail per second) UP TO 175%!

Please evemail me in game for details, these modules won't last long!


Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:10:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Nikita Fontaine


Firstly how many people do you know that sit mining with several friendly, cloaked, pvp ready ships nearby.

Secondly why would you take those precautions if you didnt know there was a hostile in local which you wouldnt as you cant see him arrive in local except by local number count of course.



I dont know any miners tbh, but everytime I see a miner die I think about how they could have prevented their deaths by having some type of escorte around.

I mean, you can butcher a whole fleet of miners in a cruiser. Whos fault is that?Rolling Eyes

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:11:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: bigfatbird


Not every miner has a ton of scorp alts or friends that want to spend an evening sitting cloacked at a belt or offgrid ss.



Not every pirate has t2 ships or a whole buddy fleet either. That argument swings both ways.

Jayson Lee
Minmatar
Universal Exports
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:12:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Nikita Fontaine


Firstly how many people do you know that sit mining with several friendly, cloaked, pvp ready ships nearby.

Secondly why would you take those precautions if you didnt know there was a hostile in local which you wouldnt as you cant see him arrive in local except by local number count of course.



I dont know any miners tbh, but everytime I see a miner die I think about how they could have prevented their deaths by having some type of escorte around.

I mean, you can butcher a whole fleet of miners in a cruiser. Whos fault is that?Rolling Eyes


Miners die too fast for an escort to work.

Nim9i5
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:14:00 - [111]
 

no local in 0.0, also make low sec sentry guns stronger.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:24:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Jayson Lee


Miners die too fast for an escort to work.



Miners with escorte gets targeted a lot less than miners WITHOUT escorte.


..........also, sensor boosters DO SERVE A PURPOSE.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:26:00 - [113]
 

No Local Vs Local disscussions >< had my first hand taste with 0.0 blind flying when this went down and let me tell you its not fun trying to figure out how many hostiles are in system even with recons.
155 people in space, scanners only picked up 45 of thier ships, 45 of those ships where named all sorts of names, only three had player's names on them, then i had to look up the allaince list in peopels and places to figure out if those three there in the allaince at all, two where one wasnt, and the guy was logged off go figure (free shuttle though) but a covie scout did swear a hostile jumped into system so we continued the search no good, from our numberous parked ships and liked named ships in system it was impossible to find the mofo let alone tell if he logged or not, if he was cloaked, or even his name and affliation, there are currently no tools that can replace local on any scale as of now, any allaince battle or fleet movement will now take 30x longer if they want to avoid losses, or even worse encourage over blobbing, i know you guys hate blobbing but when people fly blind what other option they have available? and guess what? a recon's scouts most powerful tool is the local chat channel, directional scanner and recon launcher follow afterwards with a pair of eyes and the cloaking device last.
Until there are tools made available to scouts to make it possible to get the same kind of info local chat provides (character names (linked to char sheet), allaince, corp, standing) will i refuse this, because 0.0 will become a space of gate camps instead of roaming patrols it is now.
Also until gates become tollable, lockable, and gunnable (revelations 2) defending 0.0 will be near impossible for any side of any war and logistics all around will be disrupted without any serious strain on pod pilots. Who know mabey have a becaon the sovern system can deploy that provides local chat coverage, any system without will not feature local persons until they chat on it or something of that nature. Or better yet, make it optional, those who dont want local wont show on local but they wont get local either.
This is a view of an 0.0 allaince member, of course I dont have much pvp experinces but I particpate in fleet movements lot and do scouting for them, local channel has always allowed our roaming patrols to find and pursue and setup targets for our kills, we use local to create bait as well, small gang of 4-5 ships can lure 30 ships to thier death easy once they get spotted in local and those pursuing saw which direction they where going. Proff that our enemies use it just as much as we do. Also who here has the patience to count and sort 100+ hostiles on a scanner? I dont and im quite sure none of you will. low sec system hunter/pirates i can see rejoicing for this but they aren the majority. Which is why i opt for a optional choice, and certain tools to cancel it such as sovernty not bellongin to you will devoide yoru no local choice.

Berand
The Scope
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:27:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Sever Aldaria

Friend, I don't have to think about it because I've done it and will testify against that. For the 1-2hours where there was no local, we formed up a small gang of 6 to roam through the northern regions. It was a fast gang. Scout would continually scan while warping from one gate to the next, picking up anything in the inner systems on scan. We'd find targets, prep, blow them; all the while not knowing if reinforcements were in system to jump us. It was thrilling as far as pvp goes. Not slow, not tedious, and certainly not boring.


You must live in some really tightly-packed areas of 0.0 then. Either that or you don't live in 0.0... unless you're suggesting that you can scan out everything in a system just as fast as you could read local before, in which case I just don't believe you. :P I've been on roving gangs that had to go 15-20 hops or more before finding enemies. Even if it takes you 3 more minutes per system, that means you're spending an hour scanning to go 20 hops. Boy, that's fun. What do you do in a system that's 90au's long? What about someone who wants to go solo PvPing, or with one friend, and doesn't have the luxury of a bunch of extra people to scout and probe?

Also, I'm sure those folks you blew up had a wonderful time having no way to know you were there, while you were busy... well, while you were busy exploiting a bug. :) Since no one even knew the local bug was coming, any experience from that time would hardly be indicative of how it would go after an official change, and people have time to prepare on both ends.

Removing local would cause SO many far-reaching balance issues, it's hard to even fathom. And even if CCP were to find ways to balance out everything, and develop new mechanisms to make living without local practical for everyone... you would have them do all that work to fix something that isn't even broken? Things work fine right now. PvPers at all levels can get action, from solo to small gang to huge fleets. Miners can mine, sometimes die, but if they stay on their toes they at least have a chance. I'd rather they work on fixing large fleet battles or something, personally.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:35:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Nikita Fontaine


Firstly how many people do you know that sit mining with several friendly, cloaked, pvp ready ships nearby.

Secondly why would you take those precautions if you didnt know there was a hostile in local which you wouldnt as you cant see him arrive in local except by local number count of course.



I dont know any miners tbh, but everytime I see a miner die I think about how they could have prevented their deaths by having some type of escorte around.

I mean, you can butcher a whole fleet of miners in a cruiser. Whos fault is that?Rolling Eyes


Because whilst mining is boring, sitting there in a combat ship watching a miner is even more boring.

Which is essentially the problem.

In a general sense, I agree that local's not a good thing. However, I also don't think 'just removing it' would be a good idea.

You'd end up with a _lot_ more effort being on the part of the defender, to 'be vigilant'. Seriously, if someone's spending 4 hours mining, do you _really_ think it's reasonable that they be clicking 'scan' every 10 seconds or so?

How about, having one person watching each gate into system, whilst a mining op is going on?

Naah.

Now, local removal. *shrug* figure there's options for it. How about, if there were deployable 'alarms'. Anchor them on a gate, and they flash up someone on overview. Or maybe something similar, with a POS - if there's a POS online, you get better intel.

I know full well that hunting gets way easier with no local - pop a probe, see what's there, move on to next system, repeat. IMO that's just not good. At least, not when the person who you're hunting has to do something similar in order to see you coming, for 6 hours at a time.


Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2007.03.21 20:55:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Berand
You must live in some really tightly-packed areas of 0.0 then. Either that or you don't live in 0.0...

Theres lots of targets in Fade, Dekein, Venal, and Tribute Wink

Originally by: Berand
I've been on roving gangs that had to go 15-20 hops or more before finding enemies. Even if it takes you 3 more minutes per system, that means you're spending an hour scanning to go 20 hops. Boy, that's fun. What do you do in a system that's 90au's long?


Of course someone that comes in local wouldn't notice your gang either. Also, many groups have intel channels that monitor your gang's progress which can account for lack of targets. When I went roaming, it didn't take more than a minute for our scout to determine if any viable targets were around.

Originally by: Berand
What about someone who wants to go solo PvPing, or with one friend, and doesn't have the luxury of a bunch of extra people to scout and probe?


It only took one scout. When solo or with a friend, it still only takes one person to find another.

Originally by: Berand
Also, I'm sure those folks you blew up had a wonderful time having no way to know you were there, while you were busy... well, while you were busy exploiting a bug. :) Since no one even knew the local bug was coming, any experience from that time would hardly be indicative of how it would go after an official change, and people have time to prepare on both ends.


We just did what we normally do and they did what they normally do. I don't see how theres any exploiting involved. We were looking for fights knowing that local was broken, and they were out as well knowing that local was broken.

Originally by: Berand
Removing local would cause SO many far-reaching balance issues, it's hard to even fathom. And even if CCP were to find ways to balance out everything, and develop new mechanisms to make living without local practical for everyone... you would have them do all that work to fix something that isn't even broken? Things work fine right now.


People have wanted local removed for a long time. Oveur said that local chat was never intended as an intel gathering tool. Things may work, but that doesn't mean they can't work better. I'm fine with the game as is but why is CCP working on new Revelations patches and introducing new aspects of gameplay and working on the future factional warfare? To make things better. Wink

Originally by: Berand
PvPers at all levels can get action, from solo to small gang to huge fleets. Miners can mine, sometimes die, but if they stay on their toes they at least have a chance. I'd rather they work on fixing large fleet battles or something, personally.



Yep. That describes EVE very well. In its context though, you seem to imply that if the local list of people is hidden, then PvPers at all levels can't get action, from solo to small gang to huge fleets; miners can't mine, sometimes die, but have a chance if they stay on their toes.

Death Kill
Caldari
SolaR KillerS
UN1CUM
Posted - 2007.03.21 21:07:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus

Because whilst mining is boring, sitting there in a combat ship watching a miner is even more boring.






Stop mining then.

Cipher7
Posted - 2007.03.21 21:17:00 - [118]
 


It is not practical to hit the scan button every 5 seconds while ratting or mining.

Local is necessary imo.

Cipher7
Posted - 2007.03.21 21:28:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: James Lyrus

Because whilst mining is boring, sitting there in a combat ship watching a miner is even more boring.




Stop mining then.


How will minerals get gathered and ships built?

Is getting rid of the mining profession the goal of CCP?

If you need to hit "scan" every 5 seconds, that would kinda kill the mining profession wouldn't it.

Death Kill
Caldari
SolaR KillerS
UN1CUM
Posted - 2007.03.21 21:40:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Death Kill on 21/03/2007 21:36:49
Originally by: Cipher7


How will minerals get gathered and ships built?





It will be gathered by true battle hardened miners who knows how to survive, not just the lazy, greedy carebears who live their entire lives in Jita?


Its a win win situasion for the miners as the price of minerals will increase.


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only