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James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.03.21 07:46:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Quote:

For people that need to mine and rat to make money, local is basically the only defense they have.

This defense is far too powerful, in fact against any experienced player it cannot be overcome. It's an I-Win button for a defender. I don't like that.

Economics 101: people aren't going to available to be killed if they aren't playing the game. They won't play the game, or won't goto 0.0/low-sec if they don't on average, escape 90-95% of the time. This isn't exactly a complicated idea, it's the old predator/prey relationship. Hence, in fact, defense has to work most of the time. Removing local lets it work exactly none of the time. That's not balance.

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Quote:
Put in some active scanning radar type ship system first and then you can have no-local.

So, in order to balance the attacker and the prey, the solution is to make the prey immune until we can make the prey only partially immune?

Removing local isn't partially immune, it's complete vulnerability. See above.

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Quote:
Even using the scanner won't work - scenario: You're ratting. I jump in with a pilgrim and proceed to run through the belts cloaked. I find you, I wtfpwn you. You had no idea I was even in system.

Let's examine this. You searched through dozens of systems by hand looking for a target. You are able to evade other players friendly to the ratter, and are not reported throughout your entire search.

Problem 1: How do people normally report a hostile moving through their space? Is it because they see them at gates? No - it's because they see them in local and successive reports give you a vector.

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
You get lucky and find a target in a belt. You use your special stealth abilities to sneak to the target and engage. You are then able to kill the target using a relatively flimsy cruiser, while the target's corp and allies ... do what? stand and watch? Let's pretend they stand and watch and you escape. Now they're after you. You can't tell if there are gatecamps ahead or not, or if there's even a blob out. You might be the hunted now, but you cannot tell for certain. Your location and ship type is also known, so finding another target will be difficult.

Your location is known right up until you jump into another system, move 2 jumps away and then safe. Oh wait? They should gate camp every system you might have been in? Well hell, let's examine that - average 2.5x gates per system, each leading to another 2.5x gates. So if you stay in system that's 2-3 camps, w/ bubbles. Go 1 jump away and that's about to increase by 2.5(1+(n-1)) so 4 gates to camp. Not to mention the logistics of gate camping like that, or travel times, or any of that.

Sorry, the attacker is INVULNERABLE after they kill someone with no local. You will never find them, even with a local count (why, GOD, would you not have a system that at least tracks friendlies by system for the chat channel they're in - OH WAIT - that's local!)

Humpalot
Posted - 2007.03.21 08:03:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
You use your special stealth abilities to sneak to the target and engage. You are then able to kill the target using a relatively flimsy cruiser, while the target's corp and allies ... do what? stand and watch? Let's pretend they stand and watch and you escape. Now they're after you. You can't tell if there are gatecamps ahead or not, or if there's even a blob out. You might be the hunted now, but you cannot tell for certain. Your location and ship type is also known, so finding another target will be difficult.

I don't know, sounds pretty exciting to me.


Erm...you're in a Force Recon and running through gates when people are actively hunting you?

Most Recon pilots I know safe and cloak and wait it out.

Death Merchant
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2007.03.21 08:22:00 - [63]
 

IMO you would just have cloaked ships sitting around populated systems watching people warp from stations and gates and getting easy ganks all the time. It would favor the hunter a lot more because the hunter knows where the prey will be most of the time. I pvp most of the time I play and although I would get a great deal more kills, I don't think it would be fair and as such would not benefit the game.

Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2007.03.21 08:42:00 - [64]
 

As I wrote in the other thread, not having local was not THAT gamebreaking as I originally thought, but that's mainly because I usually play in paranoid mode and always assume the worst. I also did not spend time in belts but instead moved from gate to gate to station, and in a cloaker at that.

Not having local does not matter there much, but you also have to consider the players who do not have a CovOps cloak available for whatever reason.

Especially spending any time at a warpable location will be almost impossible without local or an equivalent tool.
Picture ice mining. You have to fire at the rock for ten minutes or so. During this time you constantly have to be aligned and watching the scanner since the first warning you'll get is some ship appearing on scan. And you have to safespot for ANY ship you see there, since you do not know if there are dangerous people in the system or not. This might work for regular mining as turning off the miner gives you a partial amount, but not for ice. Every halfway threatening ship that just flies around the planets would cause mining operations to come to a halt.
Scanning will also not help you against Recon ships that can warp, cloak and still pose a danger to barges. Sure, you can get protection, but what good is a swarm of BS that gets ECM'ed, damped or disrupted while the Recon blasts a barge or two before fleeing? You'd need a huge protection fleet, making low-sec operations not profitable, and quite boring for the protectors.

I like the fact that there is no warning "Big camp ahead" without local, but I think it would cause the low-sec economy to collapse.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.03.21 08:49:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Let's examine this. You searched through dozens of systems by hand looking for a target.


Only an idiot with an IQ below roomtemperature would search through dozens of systems by hand looking for targets. Anyone with an IQ above roomtemperature would go directly to the systems with the lowest secratings and gank the **** out of every ratter and miner there.

Quote:
You are able to evade other players friendly to the ratter, and are not reported throughout your entire search.


If the ganker(s) are in recon ships and there is no local, how hard is it to 'not get reported'? And you can always go around jumping to the target system at off-hours (say just before DT), logout and log back in when you go hunting. Not getting reported is easy as hell.

Quote:
You get lucky and find a target in a belt. You use your special stealth abilities to sneak to the target and engage. You are then able to kill the target using a relatively flimsy cruiser, while the target's corp and allies ... do what? stand and watch? Let's pretend they stand and watch and you escape. Now they're after you. You can't tell if there are gatecamps ahead or not, or if there's even a blob out. You might be the hunted now, but you cannot tell for certain. Your location and ship type is also known, so finding another target will be difficult.



....

Or you just safespot, cloak for 20 mins and logout. Return a few hours later or even the next evening, rinse and repeat.

Jeez, do we really have to spell it out for all you 'leet' people on how this works?



w0rmy
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2007.03.21 08:50:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: SonOTassadar
Edited by: SonOTassadar on 20/03/2007 20:46:43
Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus
shrug its hardly a "good" thing now as the balance is completely shifted to the hunter and there is nothing for the hunted.


Both hunter and hunted have the same tools to find each other. How has the balance shifted?




Cloaks.

Hunted cannot scan for a cloaked ship.

5000 cloaked ships jump into the system, your mining, see nothing.

Remove local and a covert cloak becomes a win button.



Thelma Price
Obsidian Front
Posted - 2007.03.21 08:54:00 - [67]
 

Maybe after CCP did introduce some long-lasting passive warning scan probes we could remove local ... i'm ok for putting some more activity on the scanning, but as others have pointed out, it favours the hunters far too much. Guess why lowsec is barren already ? Fear of the prey that hunters can easily catch them, with no local noone will be in lowsec ... prey will just move to empire and hunters will get bored very soon (or hunt eachother YARRRR!!)

bigfatbird
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.21 09:15:00 - [68]
 

Yeah sure, spamming the scanner buttom without end everytime you need to kill a npc would be fun. Rolling Eyes



kasalupin
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:18:00 - [69]
 

I had a long discussion in 0.0 with some friends about the lack of local and any mining ops.

Let start with the current system :

principles: take a big mining corp, have guard and bubble camping the entrance gate, a tanker and some guards in the belt and lots of happy miners and haulers. Use hulks and transports because we all know carebears can afford them.

Reality: small mining op 20 persons tops, if it is too big you are attracting too much attention on the map. lucky if you have a person checking the system before the mining system for incoming hostile. One tanker in belt and some miners and haulers.

You hardly have any pvper helping you since camping gate is boooooooorinnng. Helping miners is not much fun either and anyway is a pirate breach the security, 3 covetors are dead before you can shoot down the pesky guy.

Hulk doesn't tank that well, nearly lost one over an inty and it cost 700M with fitting atm. For that price you have an uber pvp BS but a pretty poor defensive miner.

So basically atm, a pirate gank miners it is game over for the miners plain a simple. We lose 150M to 250M while the pirate lose a 50 to 100M investment and he got the insurance pay out.

Mining is not a I win button since you have to deal with the logisitic of hauling and selling the minerals and that is a pain. Mining is just a more reliable way of earning isks and with the current price of mienral it is is not that great.

Also, miners are essentially static ships with paper thin defence in open space. Pirates have an advantage since they are mobile and mobility is a form of defence.

The only effective form of defence atm for the miners is to run like most prey animals in RL.

No more local:

With no more local, mining get more complicated. Now you really need ships cloaked at the entrance gates to scan for incoming ship that means people play time wasted for security measure. It also mean only dead end system being mined.

Also there would be less ratting in system since you do not know who is coming and going.

Solution:

I don't mind having no local anymore but it need to be balanced out. Give miners a better chance to evade the gank. Possibilities: give mining ships some defensive abilities: atm mining ships are harmless since we can't really defend ourselves. Give them a sizeable drone bay and a good tank and the lone pirate could die from brushing with a serious mining gang. Give minings ships an extra high slot for a cloak or give them some natural warp core stabs like transport blockade runner.

Alternatively, make all mining belts hidden so you have to scan the system to find us and allow miner to see when they are being scanned.



Haakon Jarl
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:25:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: SonOTassadar


Both hunter and hunted have the same tools to find each other. How has the balance shifted?



I think what he means is that now the hunted have to do more than just watch local.
To this date, its been mostly pirates who have used scanners, heaven forbid greedy carebears who do nothing but fill their own pockets all day would be forced to actually play the game.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:36:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Haakon Jarl
Originally by: SonOTassadar


Both hunter and hunted have the same tools to find each other. How has the balance shifted?



I think what he means is that now the hunted have to do more than just watch local.
To this date, its been mostly pirates who have used scanners, heaven forbid greedy carebears who do nothing but fill their own pockets all day would be forced to actually play the game.


How often does a pirate need to scan while looking for targets in a system? (He doesn't need to scan many systems, predicting where potential targets will be is easy). 5 times? 10 times? Let's be generous and make it 20 times. A semi-smart pirate will just throw out a probe and be done with it of course, but lets ignore that for a sec.

Compare this to say, your average miner. He will be mining for say, 3 hours. A hostile can warp the 15 AU range of the scanner within 20 seconds. So he needs to scan with at least that frequency. Once ever 20 seconds (which still doesn't make him safe, considering the time it takes to align and warp a barge/exhumer). means 3 times per minute, means 180 times per hour, means 540 times over a three hour mining op. Hmmm. I see a difference there...

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:42:00 - [72]
 

People will NOT stop playing teh game if there is no local! The people that would are already too weakly linked to the game and would stop anyway in a few months.


If not remove at least delay local like 5 minutes.

Neon Genesis
GoonFleet
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:50:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Neon Genesis on 21/03/2007 10:46:19

w0rmy
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:54:00 - [74]
 

I like the idea of local being removed, but if it is removed, there will simply have to be a counter to covert ops cloaking devices.

Being able to warp round a system, stalking prey, while not be seen, either on scanner or local imho is just a too powerfull thing to have.


Sounds kinda like shooting fish in a barrel otherwise.



Drachma Golea
Caldari
hunter killers
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:55:00 - [75]
 

In reply to the OP, nope, boost local, put some filter options on it, make it more usefull...

Haakon Jarl
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:56:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Haakon Jarl on 21/03/2007 10:52:07
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Compare this to say, your average miner. He will be mining for say, 3 hours. A hostile can warp the 15 AU range of the scanner within 20 seconds. So he needs to scan with at least that frequency. Once ever 20 seconds (which still doesn't make him safe, considering the time it takes to align and warp a barge/exhumer). means 3 times per minute, means 180 times per hour, means 540 times over a three hour mining op. Hmmm. I see a difference there...




Or, perhaps if he ventures into lowsec he should make sure he has an escort since he decides to fly a paper ship?

Miners who mine alone can happily mine all the veld in 0.5 and above.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.03.21 10:58:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: James Duar on 21/03/2007 10:56:57

sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2007.03.21 11:04:00 - [78]
 

eliminating local is not a good thing because everyone will just jump into recons and camp and wait for someone to come through a gate, if we sat there in recons you;d have no idea we were there till it was to late.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.03.21 11:07:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Haakon Jarl
Edited by: Haakon Jarl on 21/03/2007 10:52:07
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Compare this to say, your average miner. He will be mining for say, 3 hours. A hostile can warp the 15 AU range of the scanner within 20 seconds. So he needs to scan with at least that frequency. Once ever 20 seconds (which still doesn't make him safe, considering the time it takes to align and warp a barge/exhumer). means 3 times per minute, means 180 times per hour, means 540 times over a three hour mining op. Hmmm. I see a difference there...




Or, perhaps if he ventures into lowsec he should make sure he has an escort since he decides to fly a paper ship?

Miners who mine alone can happily mine all the veld in 0.5 and above.



Ok, I'll bite. Tell me how is the escort going to prevent a hostile from blowing up the miner? Its a paper ship like you said, it dies in seconds. How does an escort protect a covetor?

What you really mean to say is: all miners should either be flying motherships with 25 T2 mining drones, or only mine in huge groups protected by 30 escorts. If you want to kill 0.0 mining and drive the prices of minerals way up, then sure, remove local.


Reachok
Amarr
Wrecking Shots
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.03.21 11:30:00 - [80]
 

No local does NOT create balance, it favors the hunters considerably. Leave things as is. From a purely sci-fi standpoint, it's common in most space based sci-fi shows and stories for the ships to see everyone that is in a system. Even shows that feature cloaked ships still will see a ship enter the system before it's cloaked. The 30 minute average map change likewise mirrors most sci-fi ship systems in that it will tell you that someone was there but not who (warp drive signatures, etc.)

But seriously - no local is just not cool. So many people want to turn this game into a non-stop frag fest that they fail to realize the sheep will seek other pastures, and they themselve will get bored and quit when they realize that there are only the other paranoid wolves to shoot. We need all types of players to keep the game fresh. From the pure industrialists who very rarely if ever venture into 0.0 or low sec to the players living in 0.0 that abhor Empire space and all those in between. No local is just the first step down the slope to a one sided gank-a-thon.

Aquidus Nefron
Caldari
Department of Defence
Dead Mans Hand
Posted - 2007.03.21 11:41:00 - [81]
 

the only way a "no local" could work, is if all ship had an auto active scanner, telliing u of all ships that r coming withen range, but in empire, that would go crazy and the eve game would probaly explode.

bigfatbird
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.21 11:47:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Aquidus Nefron
the only way a "no local" could work, is if all ship had an auto active scanner, telliing u of all ships that r coming withen range, but in empire, that would go crazy and the eve game would probaly explode.



Imagine you how that scanner would look infront of Jita 4-4Razz

Aquidus Nefron
Caldari
Department of Defence
Dead Mans Hand
Posted - 2007.03.21 11:55:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: bigfatbird
Originally by: Aquidus Nefron
the only way a "no local" could work, is if all ship had an auto active scanner, telliing u of all ships that r coming withen range, but in empire, that would go crazy and the eve game would probaly explode.



Imagine you how that scanner would look infront of Jita 4-4Razz


oh god, and u think it lags now?!?!?!

Vulor
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2007.03.21 12:08:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: kieron
This was not intended as a feature, it was a side effect of the EVE Voice client being enabled on Tranquility. The issue was resolved with a hotfix soon after the issue was discovered and reported.


We know it was a bug, but did you really have to fix it, aren't there any other bugs to fix? :P
This is one time when CCP should concentrate on adding new features to the game than fixing bugs :P

This bug gave us a really new gameplay experience, gave us a possibility of checking what EVE would be like without local. I personally loved it. Scanning everything around me, reporting ships appearing on scanner and disappearing from it. It was very exciting, and yesterday I had most fun playing eve for a long time. Actually knowing you didn't intend on removing local I want to thank you for it anyway. I had tons of fun in this 30 minutes without local.

IMO the local should go away for good, or at least make more "bugs" like this occasionally :)

sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2007.03.21 12:10:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Vulor
Originally by: kieron
This was not intended as a feature, it was a side effect of the EVE Voice client being enabled on Tranquility. The issue was resolved with a hotfix soon after the issue was discovered and reported.


We know it was a bug, but did you really have to fix it, aren't there any other bugs to fix? :P
This is one time when CCP should concentrate on adding new features to the game than fixing bugs :P

This bug gave us a really new gameplay experience, gave us a possibility of checking what EVE would be like without local. I personally loved it. Scanning everything around me, reporting ships appearing on scanner and disappearing from it. It was very exciting, and yesterday I had most fun playing eve for a long time. Actually knowing you didn't intend on removing local I want to thank you for it anyway. I had tons of fun in this 30 minutes without local.

IMO the local should go away for good, or at least make more "bugs" like this occasionally :)



why I don'nt agree personally with removing local at the momant perhaps some inbilt randomness of it stop working would be fun, I don;nt know any communications service that has 100% uptime :)

Haakon Jarl
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.21 13:18:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Malachon Draco


Ok, I'll bite. Tell me how is the escort going to prevent a hostile from blowing up the miner? Its a paper ship like you said, it dies in seconds. How does an escort protect a covetor?


Sensor boosters, remote rep or whatever. Use your imagination.

Quote:

What you really mean to say is: all miners should either be flying motherships with 25 T2 mining drones, or only mine in huge groups protected by 30 escorts. If you want to kill 0.0 mining and drive the prices of minerals way up, then sure, remove local.



No. I say they should have proper escorts.


Nikita Fontaine
Caldari
g guild
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.03.21 13:38:00 - [87]
 

I think many people are also missing a VERT salient and important fact.

Its NOT just about the HUNTER and HUNTED,

you have 3 scenario's

1) The Hunted who sits mining / ratting, anything with cloak thats hostile jumps in will screw him royally - the Hunted is a big loser with this system

2) the Hunter who goes ganking in hostile space - everyone in local is a target so simply scan , find, kill, rinse and repeat till all is dead. The Hunter benefits greatly from the system.

***AND NOW for the biggest loser of all:***

3) The Home Ground Defending Hunter - he may know there is a hostile in his home constellation but how the heck will he ever find it? except at the point the hostile attacks someone, by this time often too late, he then has to rush to wherever that fight is by then the hunter may have moved on ANYWHERE. This is the BIGGEST loser of them all. Only solution for him is to camp chokepoints 24/7 *fun not*.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.03.21 13:41:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Nikita Fontaine


2) the Hunter who goes ganking in hostile space - everyone in local is a target so simply scan , find, kill, rinse and repeat till all is dead. The Hunter benefits greatly from the system.









It must be scary living in your perception of realityRolling Eyes

Nikita Fontaine
Caldari
g guild
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.03.21 15:22:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Nikita Fontaine


2) the Hunter who goes ganking in hostile space - everyone in local is a target so simply scan , find, kill, rinse and repeat till all is dead. The Hunter benefits greatly from the system.









It must be scary living in your perception of realityRolling Eyes


LoL i am not stating this is the current state of affairs in game. This is the scenario i believe would exist to a degree with the lack of local.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.03.21 15:59:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Godar Marak on 21/03/2007 15:56:05
Originally by: Nikita Fontaine


LoL i am not stating this is the current state of affairs in game. This is the scenario i believe would exist to a degree with the lack of local.


But you have this idea that the attacker always wins. that the attacker is somehow unable of being out smarted by someone mining. A few cloaked scorpions with all med slots filled with ecm, or a gang of ships at a safespot outside the grid and I would like to see how you cannot defeat the attackers.


Everyone dies, even pirates.


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