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Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.11.21 23:38:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 21/11/2007 23:44:36

I agree with every word of Merdaneth's statement bar the last line which is a truth, but not a complete one.

God is not the answer for all of us, you might have seen this, certain slaves simply never take to the faith and remain constrained. I hear your faith says that God accepts their work and each second of it is a step closer to redemption, regardless of our beliefs on whether they are being done a service or an ill, such people will rarely consider themselves free.

Freedom is different for all of us. For some freedom lies in an ideal, for some a figure-head or government, for others a way of life. There are many other freedoms some less socially acceptable than others, not every ideal is a noble one.

Freedom is a lack of constraint. While there are always constraints they are only there when you choose to press up against them. Thus the slave who no longer wishes to leave, regardless of whether this is out of pride in his work, faith in God, compassion for his master, immersion in routine, or any number of factors, is free. He desires nothing which is denied, he pushes against no constraints and so there are none.

We all need a guiding light to live our lives by. To find our way lest we be lost amongst a forest of closed paths. Be it God, hope, greed, truth, power, revenge, usefulness, or even bloodlust. Be it small or large, permanent or transitory there can be no freedom without purpose.

Apathy, ennui, and nihilism are the most constraining prisons of all. They represent a slavery to nothingness with no hope in sight, no escape, no purpose. These are things that we pod-pilots fall prey to often. To have freedom you need a reason to exercise it.

You do not own a thing unless you have the will to use it.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2007.11.22 05:51:00 - [62]
 

God may not be the answer for us all as far as it concerns where we find freedom, Captain Blackleaf. But you have to agree that freedom alone may be pretty and fine, but a somewhat hollow virtue.

This is simple to see, if you ask the question: "How shall we act?". The answer won't be "free", the answer will be "just". So yes, I agree that we all need a guiding light, but not so much to find freedom, but to act just. I don't want to say this guiding light must be God, but I can't see how bloodlust or greed could be such a guiding light.

Simply doing the wrong things is harmful. Simply doing good things is benefical. Doing the right thing out of free will is commendable. But those people who do wrong things out of free will are the worst and most despicable creatures our universe will ever come to see. "Freedom is meaningless without responsibility." said Lord Blake and I can only agree. Those who are righteous are not only perfectly entitled to take any measures to stop these vile creatures and take their freedom away, it is their duty and obligation to do so.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.11.22 10:27:00 - [63]
 

Correct, freedom is not a goal in itself since to desire it there must be a goal one cannot fulfill without it.

To act is to move towards an end, all unconstrained action is a form of freedom. Have you never met the soldier who revels in the killing or a business man who is driven by the acquisition of wealth? These people are not only free, but often also good at what they do and a benefit to their society. Provided they can follow their goals such men would likely tell you that they are free.

Good, bad, and righteousness are not solid, tangible ideas. They are very personal concepts and defined differently for each individual. If it is good for me then it is good, if it is bad for me then it is bad. I am righteous for I act in a way I deem to be right. Both sides of a conflict will consider themselves righteous.

Responsibility is acknowledgement of consequence. You are responsible for a thing because failure is harmful to you. Any responsibility that is implied upon another is false since responsibility is a mantle that can only be assumed by the self. You can be assigned a task, or have one demanded of you, but you are only responsible for it if there are personal consequences involved. You are responsible for looking after yourself and your interests, from this all other responsibilities are derived. Freedom is, therefore, not meaningless without responsibility but impossible without it. Possessing a desire that you consider right and good imparts a responsibility to fulfill it.

Freedom is the process of following your goals. It is lost when they are unachievable or when they are achieved. It is the journey and not the destination. Most humans have a long list of hopes, desires, and goals ensuring that as quickly as we achieve one we are on the path to the next.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2007.11.22 12:42:00 - [64]
 

Captain Blackleaf I think your moral relativism and social atomism is a dangerous fallacy.

A soldier who revels in killing is as dangerous for his society as a buisness man who is only driven by accumulation of wealth. They are not free, to the contrary they are slaves to their base impulses. Freedom is to be able to decide on behalf of oneself. Freedom is acquired through detaching from oneself and thereby winning the ability to rule oneself. Only through this one is able to decide on behalf of oneself.

Before a (super-, sub-, trans-, or even post-) human being has interests or desires, it is needy. This is a fact which many try to forget, especially the privileged few like us pod-pilots.
Humans need one another to prosper. Therefore you are responsible for your fellow human beings, because it is harmful to you if you harm them. In the same sense you are obliged to care for your fellow human beings and their needs, for you as a social being need them.

And this is why good, bad, and righteousness are solid, tangible ideas. If you fail to care for the needs of other, you fail to care for yourself. If you do so there is nothing good you offer the society, and every society will happen to notice this sooner or later. He who cares only for himself, confers a commodity to society if he dies.
This is why murderers are sentenced to death or livelong arrest. And thus justly.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.11.22 19:06:00 - [65]
 

I find your black and white viewpoint on reality simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

The murderous soldier is good at his job. He may be difficult to control if the killing ever stops, but there never seems to be a shortage of battle in these times. So long as you ensure he is free to indulge as he wills there is little danger. The greedy business man... well is there really any other kind. I know I don't do it for the love and the sound of reprocessing veldspaar. Our entire society is based on greed, the constant human desire for more. To desire the obtainable is to be free, to be free is to want more, all greed is freedom.

Regardless of morality indulgence is as much a freedom as abstinence so long as it is a choice. You are confusing indulgence with compulsion. A person can be compelled to follow his instincts or try to ignore them against his will but if he acts according or against them voluntarily then he is in this aspect free.

The "base impulses" are the instincts that have driven us to survive and prosper in the face of adversity. Have not the violent and the greedy men ever given anything to society. Has the violent man never slain a threat, nor the greedy played a part in progress. Has war never brought advancement nor the selfish ever contributed. It's our dark nature that keeps us ahead of the animal kingdom. Would you rather we were all compliant, peaceful, useful people with no real value, no progress, and ready to be crushed or dominated by the first presence of real power they encounter?

The dark has just as much place here as the light and any person who does not have both within them is only half a creature. Anything too "good" or too "evil" is naturally abhorrent to us.

As for your views on the individual and their impact on society. I know a lot of people who lead very happy lives at the expense of others. They are loved and respected often by the very people they step upon. I know others who live a life of servitude, who seek only to aid others and be useful to society... I don't even recall any of their names. This is society's justice and it has little to do with law or classical morality.

It has little to do with freedom either, so I suppose we should focus on the topic at hand and leave such things for another time lest they cloud this discussion with personal views and theories on morality rather than freedom.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2007.11.22 22:07:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
The murderous soldier is good at his job. [...] It's our dark nature that keeps us ahead of the animal kingdom. [...] Anything too "good" [...] is naturally abhorrent to us.


Reading things like these I can only pity you. Do you really have such a aversion against the demand that you should care about your fellow humans? Whatsoever, I won't bother you any further with the moral imperatives you can't stand.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.11.23 14:21:00 - [67]
 

Good, good. Like I said we were veering off-topic.

If you want to discuss the "demands" and "imperatives" of morality we can do such elsewhere.


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