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Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.19 20:40:00 - [31]
 

To Nachson and other debaters: while I my opinion about freedom (and Nachson's definition) remains the same, the example I gave was incomplete and poorly defined. I simply added it too hastily.

For that I apologize.

I'll be happy to debate a revised example at a later date.

Kaleigh Doyle
Gallente
Racing News Network
Posted - 2007.03.19 22:53:00 - [32]
 

And dear Merdaneth brought to light yet another good point: Is knowledge freedom?

If a slave never knows a life from bondage, is he truly shackled by the unknown or is ignorance bliss, as they say? Are people being further repressed by organizations that leave them wandering in the dark, or do they have to desire something other than their current state to be prisoners?

The term 'freedom' is often levied in political debate under a simplistic methodology that if one simply cannot do something then they aren't truly free. Quite the contrary, we can easily discover an individual happily living as a slave without wanting for more or a person who has no interest in doing something that goes against society feeling quite liberated.

To be free is never a simple thing.

Tatsue Nuko
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.03.20 16:44:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle
Organized society has rules. Those rules are dictated and enforced by society, not just the ruling classes.


Define a society, then. Define the boundaries where separate societies have different rules and the relationship between these. If my society consider space free and murder a crime, and the other society considers space property and murder crime... What gives?

Are you saying that neither of these societies are "right" anywhere but within themselves - ie, complete unvarnished moral relativism and a direct assault against your previously so cared for freedom fighters in their struggle against Amarr Imperialism. Because the ruleset is either universal - thus not open to any human diktats, be it minority or majority rule - or the concept of right is relative and it becomes impossible to call fault on what any other society does, be it Amarr slavery practices, Matari tribalism or Gallente soaps.

To put it quite simply, my view is that rights as applied on humans are a universal thing. It's not dependant on any opinion or specific social groupings. They're an effect of human nature and the environ the human is living in. So while these rights would be subject to change when environments change (like now), the only way a "fault" can be found is when we have misunderstood our environment and our nature.

Case in point being the Amarrians and their erroneous belief that there is a God, the humanity is subservient to Him, and that slavery and imperialism is cool because this god made it so. They are suffering an error of understanding, and their ruleset is invalid because of it. The fact that the ruleset is one "enforced by [their] society" doesn't enter into it, it is completely irrelevant to the nature or correctness of the "rules" in question.

Kaleigh Doyle
Gallente
Racing News Network
Posted - 2007.03.20 17:31:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Tatsue Nuko

Are you saying that neither of these societies are "right" anywhere but within themselves - ie, complete unvarnished moral relativism and a direct assault against your previously so cared for freedom fighters in their struggle against Amarr Imperialism. Because the ruleset is either universal - thus not open to any human diktats, be it minority or majority rule - or the concept of right is relative and it becomes impossible to call fault on what any other society does, be it Amarr slavery practices, Matari tribalism or Gallente soaps.



Quite the contrary Ms. Nuko, I can take a relativist stance from an intellectual perspective in and a humanist agenda from a moral position. I may not agree with the tenets of the Amarr culture's supremecist attitude towards the lesser races, but I can certainly recognize the differences between their neighboring societies and comment on their sense of 'right' from my own.

A society unable to uphold its ideals(ie. the people accepting the laws imposed), or defend its position(from external threat) is ultimately doomed to extinction, and there's no right or wrong in that.

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2007.03.20 19:49:00 - [35]
 

Bravo, Tatsue and Kaleigh. Bravo.

Cirale
Stimulus
Posted - 2007.03.21 17:48:00 - [36]
 

Freedom, in its truest and most pure sense, is utterly personal. Any influence on this freedom, be it the highest aspirations or the lowest debauchery, are an afront to the Individual. It is not a decision, or an idea, or anything qualitative to the objective viewer, but rather a purely subjective experience of Individual sovereignty and wholeness. Therefore, freedom can not be defined as such, but is something that must be lived, with every care and awareness given to influences from others on ones own personal state of freedom.

It is the imposition of these influences, via a collective agreement, an ideological standard, or many other myriad forms, that are the enemies of freedom, and thus the Individual. Anything that says, either overtly or covertly, "this is right" and doesn't allow for the investigation and respect of whether it is personally true, is an imprisonment, and should be fought and destroyed with great fervor.

Freedom, therefore, can at best be defined in terms of what it is not, but can be seen most clearly in the actions of free Individuals.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.03.22 01:02:00 - [37]
 

Here is where I disagree with those of Star Fraction. They hold that outside influences can determine whether or not you are free. I hold that no outside influence short of a mind-altering substance can affect your ability to be free.

Cirale
Stimulus
Posted - 2007.03.22 12:50:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Cirale on 22/03/2007 12:48:58
Originally by: Nachshon
Here is where I disagree with those of Star Fraction. They hold that outside influences can determine whether or not you are free. I hold that no outside influence short of a mind-altering substance can affect your ability to be free.


First off, do not mistake my views for those of my alliance. They maybe similar, they may differ, but always they will be uniquely my own.

Next. Let me clarify. Outside influences cannot determine whiether or not your are free. It is the accepted influence of these forces which can effect ones ability to realize personal freedom. "short of mind altering substances" is the only justification you give for plausable outside influence. Tell me, is the guidance of a parent not mind altering? Do commercials and corporate propaganda not have an effect over time? What about "peer pressure" and the need to be accepted? The greatest drug of all is the one you take everyday when you look in the mirror and subconsciously ask yourself "will I fit in".

Togtongo Baatar
Posted - 2007.03.22 13:33:00 - [39]
 

BAH, its all crap. piles of space debris is what you all have for brains.

freedom is defined by the guy in the ship who has the pod of his foe locked and scrambled.

Freedom is what is most desired by the desperate clone in that pod as he awaits his fate.

Freedom is life.

Cirale
Stimulus
Posted - 2007.03.22 13:43:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Togtongo Baatar
BAH, its all crap. piles of space debris is what you all have for brains.

freedom is defined by the guy in the ship who has the pod of his foe locked and scrambled.

Freedom is what is most desired by the desperate clone in that pod as he awaits his fate.

Freedom is life.


Your views are archaic. If the podding of the "victum" had any real effect, then you would be correct. You got it half right with freedom is life, but there is more to our reality than mire survival.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.03.25 00:23:00 - [41]
 

Freedom is more than life. Freedom means that you think for yourself. You are not a mindless follower, whether obeying an authority, obeying society, or obeying your desires.

Let me give an example for each.
Imagine that you are an soldier in the military. If you are not free, you obey orders without thinking. You do not take the initiative. You just do what your commander orders you to do. One day, he and his men, are killed by an approaching army many times their size, all because their coms were jammed and they never recieved orders to retreat, despite being out of ammo, wounded, and vastly outgunned.
The free soldier would is different. He too obeys orders, but he is prepared to question them if necessary (and if he has time). He devises clever tactics, taking the initiative. In the above situation, he retreats once his ammo is gone.

Second example: obeying society.
Some people obey society without thinking. They dress in whatever the style is, agree with popular opinion, never thinking on their own. A free person would pick the clothes he likes (though following the popular style might be a good idea for social reasons) and makes his own opinions.

Third example: obeying emotions.
Our best example here would be a Gallentean college student(since Gallente society gives the emotions a lot of freedom). He goes to all kinds of parties, drinks like a fish, has wild and crazy sex, maybe even dabbles in drugs. The night before exams, he realizes that he hasn't studied. He crams into the night, but between the lack of sleep and the mindflood, he fails.
The free person acts differently. Not that he doesn't go to parties - nothing wrong with having fun. But he doesn't let his emotions run wild, and studies the week before exams. After passing the exam, he goes to a party, gets a little drunk, sleeps with two very nice girls, and in general has a good time. He does this for most of the break, and returns to class all rested.

fedor345
Caldari
FREGE Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.25 07:09:00 - [42]
 

i believe pirating is the ultimate freedom, none to depend on, exept your targets, with luck none to rely on, ahhh the freedom

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.25 17:13:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: fedor345
i believe pirating is the ultimate freedom, none to depend on, exept your targets, with luck none to rely on, ahhh the freedom



Indeed, being a pod-pilot pirate is as close to ultimate freedom as one can become in our universe. It also show why ultimate freedom is an empty ideal.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.03.25 18:47:00 - [44]
 

Freedom is not necessarily good, as Miss Pirate clearly demonstrates.

And I agree with you, Merdaneth (shock, horror!) that pod pilots are among the freest people. We have little to enslave us.

Alexandra Belani
Moose Wormhole Initiative
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.26 07:30:00 - [45]
 

I suppose a topic of this depth would set forth the interest of many who would claim to be free, and yet have not truly experienced the nature of freedom. Absolute freedom would imply that everyone is free to operate under the modus operandi which best reflects his or her system of values; however, how this translates into practicality is whether the limit of one's claimed freedoms extend to follow the path of societal grace and unwritten rules of engagement, or whether these freedoms would allow a man to lay down his own life in order to protect the freedoms of the man who would take it. The depth of commitment to such freedom lies beyond the simple imagination of good and evil, resting within the mind of each individual and his or her personal choices. For example. As a 'filthy imperialist' as some might call me, are those who suffer freedom to be the greatest acheivable goal upon which a man can found his existence, willing, albeit a different point of view, system of value, or 'end' to the means, to allow me the freedom to choose not to be free according to thier will?

That, ladies and gentleman is the question of the hour. Answer that and you will know the depth of your commitment.

Love and Pixellated happiness
Alexandra





Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.26 10:28:00 - [46]
 

Freedom is meaningless without responsibility.

It is because many Minmatars are unable to appreciate this simple fact that we must sometime infringe upon their freedoms.

Molovian Twilight
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.03.26 11:57:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle
And dear Merdaneth brought to light yet another good point: Is knowledge freedom?

If a slave never knows a life from bondage, is he truly shackled by the unknown or is ignorance bliss, as they say? Are people being further repressed by organizations that leave them wandering in the dark, or do they have to desire something other than their current state to be prisoners?

The term 'freedom' is often levied in political debate under a simplistic methodology that if one simply cannot do something then they aren't truly free. Quite the contrary, we can easily discover an individual happily living as a slave without wanting for more or a person who has no interest in doing something that goes against society feeling quite liberated.

To be free is never a simple thing.


I would add that the truly free can even be slaves to too much knowledge that limits there ability to find the next mystery or knowledge.

Are we sure we know how to be free?


Lyra Troik
Posted - 2007.07.02 19:45:00 - [48]
 

Freedom, like most other abstract concepts, falls prey to variations in perspective. In fact, it is the intangible nature of such concepts which allows them to be interpreted differently from one observer to another, and which also grants them flexibility and longevity.

Consequently, verifiable by basic statistics, when enough perspectives are pooled around the same issue, one will find that for every argument in one direction, there will be another to oppose it. Far from linear, this 'tug of war' of ideas can span multiple standpoints, as it often does.

That said, it may be noticeable that I'm not prefacing my definition, but have already given it.
Freedom is the ability to widen one's scope of thinking, to see the larger picture, to 'zoom out' on any given situation and understand its governing principles.

Freedom is the ability to understand that for every viewpoint, although valid, there is another equally valid point opposing it.
Freedom exposes illusions like 'faith', 'truth', and 'good' vs. 'bad'. It liberates an individual from the burden of having to classify everything into a set category.

Consider this:
An individual is faced with a new concept. Based upon what that person has already experienced and knows, the concept is classifiable as 'to be avoided' or 'acceptable' or 'desirable' or a number of other verdicts.
The individual chooses one of these, based upon knowledge and prior experience, and moves on.

Now, we could say this person is free, for no outside force guided his thinking or constrained him to any set path, but the illusion is subtle.
The individual WAS confined, not by an external force, but by the limits of his own experience. Basically, he can only decide within the confines of what he knows, much as a captive may only walk within the confines of his cage.

A concept as broad and applicable as freedom must be considered with equally broad and unrestrained definitions. It cannot be minimized to define the actions of one person in one situation, or even that of an entire nation. It may apply to those situations, but it cannot be defined by their narrow perspectives.

Here a connection has been made between freedom and degree of experience, thus wider and broader understanding.
Some may ask who or what defines this scale of experience, or what governs or decides the limits of this relationship. That, however, is faulty logic.
A relationship need not have a creator nor a supervisor, but may be appreciated and applied as long as its fundamental principles still hold.

By this definition, we are all born into the captivity of our own lack of experience, our naivete, and mature into a state of greater freedom, where our combined experiences teach us not what to classify and how, but rather to recognize that no classification is necessary.

The philosopher Aristotle recorded:
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

This is freedom. The ability to view, analyze, observe, and think without the shackles of classification and judgment.

Given this, I feel little but pity for those who find comfort in pursuing only a handful of ideals and who shut out new experiences out of fear and prejudice.

Freedom is self-evident and self-asserting, seek not to cage it with restricted definition.

Mad Scorpion
Minmatar
Raiders of the Open Stars
Posted - 2007.11.13 05:28:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle

The larger question is, "is influencing a decision with a deterrant effect always a limitation of freedom?" If a person is prevented from doing something they never desire to do, are they being repressed?


I have many slaves that are perfectly content with their lives, and don't desire to be 'set free'. Still many Matari feel that my slaves are being repressed because they think they would feel so in their place, and will thus abduct them.

I don't feel repressed too, but Star Fraction seems determined to 'free me' from repressive imperialistic memes nonetheless.

So for many people the answer to your question seems to be: yes.


It's easy to never miss what you never had. Perhaps the problem with the Amarr understanding what freedom is, is due to their lack of it themselves. If I as a Minmatar were to stand in front of the government building and declare my abandonment of my traditions and state I was joining with the Thukkar clan, no one would come hunt me down as I have not committed a crime.

Now have an Amarr stand in front of the Apostle Council and declare his disbelief of god and see what happens. Inquisition time folks. Arrest and re-education at the best. The Amarr have no freedoms therefore they do not understand what it represents.


Tobias Creed
Minmatar
SaberCorp
Posted - 2007.11.15 21:44:00 - [50]
 

Your definition of Freedom, in the sense of a philosophical discussion, is fine. However, when I speak of my freedom from my former Amarrian masters, what I mean is freedom from coercion. When a man has a gun to your head, you are free to allow him to shoot you, but you are still being coerced. While the choice to die or to suffer is always available, being forced to make that choice over the simplest of daily activities is wrong. And when I was a slave to the Amarr, I took little comfort in my ability to throw myself to the slaver hounds, should I choose.

Darina Rea
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
Posted - 2007.11.16 02:02:00 - [51]
 

For Mankind lived in the house of God;
A long time, yet they were not satisfied;
Outwards they looked and they asked;
"God, we wish to live out there";

And God responded to them, patiently;
"You have the choice, to go or to say";
And happily mankind left the House;
To live outside among the Stars;

Only to return and ask to enter again;
"Are you not happy outside?" God asked;
And Mankind responded "We are, but,";
"It is not what we thought it would be.";

Excerpt from an Archealogical site, translated as best possible.

Freedom is the most fleeting feeling in the galaxy. The chained slave might be the most free person as he has nothing to worry about one might argue. Or the wealthy Caldari merchant might be it, because he can buy everything his heart desires.

The question if you are free is ultimately a completely private and personal one. Because you aren't free untill you can give that question a positive answer. The follow up of why are you free, is one that spawns so many answers as there are people alive.

Petter Sandstad
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2007.11.16 02:51:00 - [52]
 

Freedom is related to choice, but it is not as the author here says "the freedom to make choices". Even if you replaced "freedom" inside the definition with say "ability", it would be wrong. Everyone are free to make decisions. What they are not always able to do is to perform the said action that you have decided on. As in your example of the person ratting. If a pirate disrupts the navigation computer of the ratter's ship, he can't warp out. Even though he might want to do so. So freedom is the capability of performing the actions that one has choses, or phrased differently, the lack of initiation of force towards you.

So take yourself. You want to live a life in freedom. But you have no idea what freedom is. You think, like so many of the minmatar, that pirates are free. You even think that pirates live for themselves, where I take that to mean that they live to fulfill their lives to the outmost. But when did you ever hear of a pirate getting on the Fortune-50 list of the wealthiest men? They live an awful life, and they have no understanding of freedom or rights. And neither do you and the minmatar.

In fact, not many people know anything about freedom and rights. Only a very select few do -- for lack of a better word we might call these The Civilized. These are the few that holds our civilization up. Until you, or anyone else supporting the fight for Minmatar liberty, becomes one of these few -- you should stop fighting.

Laerise
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.16 16:47:00 - [53]
 

There is no "true freedom", there is only God.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2007.11.16 19:44:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Petter Sandstad
So freedom is the capability of performing the actions that one has choses, or phrased differently, the lack of initiation of force towards you.



I don't think your definition is useful, Captain Sandstad. Nobody is fee to perfom every action he can choose to do. (That's trivial. No human can take a big healthy breath of air if he's floating in vacuum without the help of tools but he can choose trying it.) There is always a force limiting us in our actions, but not our decisions. So we are always limited to a special set of actions.

Freedom defined as the ability to make decisions on ones own behalf is much more useful. But it's only a start. There are many questions coming up with this definitions, but I don't want to entertain them here.

Captain Laerise, I think it's not as easy as you make it seem. The question to ask here is: 'What is God?' or 'Which qualities does God possess?'. Would you say God does not possess true freedom? Or would it not be more accurate to say, true freedom can only be found with/through God?

Xenea
Amarr
Posted - 2007.11.17 03:08:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Laerise
There is no "true freedom", there is only God.


Praise be Lord God.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.11.17 13:51:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 17/11/2007 13:55:04

Freedom is a state of mind.

There is no true freedom. Constraints always exist even if they are only the immutable laws of physics and the simple fact that other people will not always agree with you.

Therefore it is for the individual to decide if the level of freedom they have is sufficient for them.

The truest freedom I can see is sacrificing your own freedoms for a cause. If you are happy with and believe in the cause or master you follow, be it wealth, liberty, The Reclaiming, government, God, or CEO, you are free. Else you are a slave to your own despair or indifference.

I guess the most simple way of putting forth my philosophy on it is that you are either a servant or you are a slave.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.17 17:03:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

Freedom is a state of mind.

There is no true freedom. Constraints always exist even if they are only the immutable laws of physics and the simple fact that other people will not always agree with you.

Therefore it is for the individual to decide if the level of freedom they have is sufficient for them.



Masterfully said. I hope that those who call themselves 'freedom fighters' understand what you said. It is why a Matari slave content with his life feels more free that a terrorist blaming others for his lack of spiritual wholeness, and desperately struggles to force others to give something to him that he can only find in himself.

God will set you free.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.11.17 19:53:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

Freedom is a state of mind.

There is no true freedom. Constraints always exist even if they are only the immutable laws of physics and the simple fact that other people will not always agree with you.

Therefore it is for the individual to decide if the level of freedom they have is sufficient for them.



Masterfully said. I hope that those who call themselves 'freedom fighters' understand what you said. It is why a Matari slave content with his life feels more free that a terrorist blaming others for his lack of spiritual wholeness, and desperately struggles to force others to give something to him that he can only find in himself.

God will set you free.


Daelin has understood this question precisely. The truest act of freedom is giving up your own freedom to a cause. However, Merdaneth is incorrect about Matari freedom fighters - they have devoted themselves to the cause of freedom.

That said, neither the slave who mindlessly obeys his master or the freedom fighter who unthinkingly hurls himself at his foe is free. The slave who willingly devotes himself to serving his master, and the freedom fighter who dedicates his life to liberating his brethren, both are free.

Mori Felding
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.20 14:48:00 - [59]
 

Freedom is a word we use to represent the acknowledgement of options that are not impossible to us. That everyone considers whats possible and what isn't differently (particular due to the consequences) only make it a bigger mess.

What I consider freedom, my good friend calls the determined cause and effect of the system we live in. I say they are the same, only the words differ, and the values we put in them.

Maalan
Caldari
Selinir
Posted - 2007.11.20 15:57:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Maalan on 20/11/2007 17:31:33
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

Freedom is a state of mind.

There is no true freedom. Constraints always exist even if they are only the immutable laws of physics and the simple fact that other people will not always agree with you.

Therefore it is for the individual to decide if the level of freedom they have is sufficient for them.



Masterfully said. I hope that those who call themselves 'freedom fighters' understand what you said. It is why a Matari slave content with his life feels more free that a terrorist blaming others for his lack of spiritual wholeness, and desperately struggles to force others to give something to him that he can only find in himself.

God will set you free.


Freedom is being able to choose our own prisons. If your god wanted wanted all of us freed by serving as slaves, we would not have a choice. Instead it seems your god is allowing others to choose to fight back.

If your slaves are indeed content and consider themselves free, after they have had a chance to see what a life making their own decisions would be like, then you are a good person who knows how to treat his people properly.

My hatred of slavery comes from having seen too many of the people I love ruthlessly repressed by slavers who care for nothing but power.


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