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Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.03.11 01:22:00 - [1]
 

What is freedom? That is a question that is hotly debated. I will not try to summarise even a few of the opinions here, as that would be impossible. Instead, I will offer this definition:

Here is the main thrust of my beliefs - anyone can be free if they choose to. I include in this not only my Matari comrades, but the Amarrian loyalists, the Caldari patriots, the pilots of Star Fraction, and even any slaves who may be listening in on this broadcast.

True freedom is the freedom to make choices. Of course, we are limited by our environment and our resources. I would choose to fit a shield hardener on my Manticore, but I don't have the powergrid for it.

Yet choice exists. We are presented in life with many choices. For instance, say I go ratting, and I run into four Angel Cartel cruisers. My shield bar is dropping fast. I have two real choices - run or fight. After thinking for a moment, I choose the former, deciding that the Angels will outlast my Manticore.

How can you apply this in your life? The answer is to make every action a conscious choice. Think, even if only for the briefest sliver of time, even if only to decide that there is no time for pondering a decision (which will happen a lot, especially in combat), about your options. Know what they are, and pick.

Let us take another example. Imagine that you are a Brutor slave in the Amarr Empire. You are working in the fields, and you notice that there is a hole in the fence, and the overseer is distracted. You have a choice - try to escape, or keep working. You could take your chances and run. Or you could decide that between the regular search parties, your Brutor features, and your family still on the plantation, attempting to escape now is futile.

This brings me to the most important choice (after choosing to be free) that you will have to make - what to live for. If you have nothing to live for, you aren't even alive, let alone free. But neither are you bound to live for a particular thing. Instead, you must choose.

For example, some people live only for themselves. They steal and kill to get what they need. We call them pirates. I would call these pirates 'free'. I wouldn't call them nice, or honest, or moral, but I would call them free. Others choose to live for their countries. We call them patriots. I have chosen to live for the Minmatar Republic, my adopted country. Most of the people I grew up with chose to live for either the Caldari State, or for Ishukone. Many Amarr choose to live for their god.

Returning to our slave, how can he be free? What can he live for? Well, he can live for physical freedom. He can constantly plan to escape his bondage. Or, he could live for his family, caring for them, protecting them, and trying to obtain their freedom. Some slaves even live for their masters, and become devoted servants.

You may be asking, by this definition, all are free! But not all. People who live their lives without thinking, giving in to their desires and emotions, whether by doing whatever they want, or doing whatever someone tells them, they are not free. Not that obeying authority means that you are not free. I obey most laws either because they are rational, or because breaking the law leads to punishment. I try to be free in my life, and I encourage all to do the same. At the very least, make one choice - the choice to be free.

Tecam Hund
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.03.11 01:48:00 - [2]
 

Perfect definition, Nachshon. This man knows what freedom is.

You can be a slave and yet be free, or you can be a freedom fighter and be a slave. Ability to be free lies within us all.

Redwolf
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.11 10:10:00 - [3]
 

What complete rubbish. I am consistenly astounded at my enemies ineptitude as clasping at the basic fundamentals of this arguement.

Freedom is not choice, and choice is not freedom.

Freedom is accountability, and responsability.

Only once you are accountable and have taken responsability for your actions are the choices you make free choices.

You are not free because you 'choose' not to take responsability for your actions nor feel accountable for the decisions that you make, you act as a product of your environment and not a free thinking individual. This much is clear from your political alignment.

Falcon Wolfe
Posted - 2007.03.11 10:43:00 - [4]
 

Freedom? Who is really free? Everyone answers to someone else, everyone has limitations, and very few become who they want to be. We all have the freedom to make choices in our lives, but true freedom only comes from not allowing your mind to be constricted by your world. Where you are does not define who you are. What you have does not define what you can create. And how you live does not define what your life can become. Freedom is not characterised by your surroundings, it is defined by your will. If you die in defiance, you die free. Those who fight to live free die free as well. You cannot put boundries on freedom, for that is exactly what freedom defies.

Tecam Hund
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.03.11 10:49:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Redwolf
What complete rubbish. I am consistenly astounded at my enemies ineptitude as clasping at the basic fundamentals of this arguement.

Freedom is not choice, and choice is not freedom.

Freedom is accountability, and responsability.

Only once you are accountable and have taken responsability for your actions are the choices you make free choices.

You are not free because you 'choose' not to take responsability for your actions nor feel accountable for the decisions that you make, you act as a product of your environment and not a free thinking individual. This much is clear from your political alignment.



Freedom is taking responsibility for your choices, Amarr. Free choices. OP implies just that with the last paragraph.

Quote:
You may be asking, by this definition, all are free! But not all. People who live their lives without thinking, giving in to their desires and emotions, whether by doing whatever they want, or doing whatever someone tells them, they are not free. Not that obeying authority means that you are not free. I obey most laws either because they are rational, or because breaking the law leads to punishment. I try to be free in my life, and I encourage all to do the same. At the very least, make one choice - the choice to be free.


Pirate is not free because he chooses to disregard the laws of his community, but because he does it knowingly and accepts the outlaw/exile status to go with it.

Excessively religious people, on the other hand, most often are not free by yours and by "freedom is choice" definition. Neither do they take responsibility for their actions, claiming instead to be doing what God asks of them, nor do they have choice out of superstitious fear to step out of the line and be punished by forces out of their control. The same goes for patriots who choose to serve blindly.

However, if you are a rational critical-thinking individual, you realize both positive and negative sides of what you do. In that case you can still choose to promote your religion, government, anarchy or whatever it might be and stay free. Because the decision you made was based on rational choice of what seems to you the lesser of two evils.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.11 12:28:00 - [6]
 

Dear Nachson,

While I commend your attempt at a definition, I do think your description of Freedom is a bit extreme, even for me. I'll recap your points below:

1. Freedom is being able to making choices.

2. It does not matter if what you choose to do is possible or not.

3. A choice does not count as a choice if it is an emotional one. Only rational choices are true choices.

4. The most important choice one can make is the choice to be free.

Who would you like to decide if a choice is rational or not? The State, God, your superiors? If The State decides some of your choices are irrational, and therefore tries to deny you those, will your freedom not be restricted according to you. If you yourself decide if your choices are rational or not, what would be the point of making the distinction?

Also, I would like to suggest you get married and have some private time with your spouse. It will do wonders for your understanding of making emotional choices. You will no doubt experience that it will not diminish your sense of freedom at all.

As for your last point, I can translate this to: The most important choice is the choice to be able to make rational choices. (since that was your definition of being free). That is a circular definition, and frankly to me it simply doesn't make much sense.

Example
I'll give one more example to show the folly of your reasoning:

You are part of a thousand Matari freedom fighters defending a village. A group of 500 slavers descends upon the village in order to capture some slaves. You know that your 1000 will be easily able to repulse the attack, but will take a few losses. You also know that 999 Matari will be able to repulse the attack, with about the same amount of losses.

The rational choice would be to run and let your 999 brothers to repulse the attack, for you would still achieve your desired goal, only you would not have the risk of getting killed yourself.

If you can name one rational argument for you not to run in that situation, please do so.

Rocius
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.03.11 14:15:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth

If you can name one rational argument for you not to run in that situation, please do so.



Honor





Molovian Twilight
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.03.11 14:51:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Molovian Twilight on 11/03/2007 15:00:36


To attempt to exert some level of free will on your sphere of influence.


Originally by: Nachshon
What is freedom?
For example, some people live only for themselves. They steal and kill to get what they need. We call them pirates. I

would call these pirates 'free'. I wouldn't call them nice, or honest, or moral, but I would call them free. Others choose

to live for their countries. We call them patriots. I have chosen to live for the Minmatar Republic, my adopted country.

Most of the people I grew up with chose to live for either the Caldari State, or for Ishukone. Many Amarr choose to live

for their god.



To that I would say that gypsies are free, as a comparison and are there any gypsies around?


Originally by: Falcon Wolfe
Freedom? Who is really free? Everyone answers to someone else, everyone has limitations, and very few become who they want to be. We all have the freedom to make choices in our lives, but true freedom only comes from not allowing your mind to be constricted by your world. Where you are does not define who you are. What you have does not define what you can create. And how you live does not define what your life can become. Freedom is not characterised by your surroundings, it is defined by your will. If you die in defiance, you die free. Those who fight to live free die free as well. You cannot put boundries on freedom, for that is exactly what freedom defies.


Nice quote, I would say though, that arn't our minds contructed by your our world and our world constructed by our minds?

Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.11 14:54:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 11/03/2007 14:58:22
Originally by: Rocius
Originally by: Merdaneth

If you can name one rational argument for you not to run in that situation, please do so.



Honor


Honor is not an objective in itself. The concept of Honor is formed from a desire to construct a set of moral guidelines that can function under extreme conditions (war), as a counterbalance to egoistic desires.

But there is a rational solution.
Realising that Sub-threshold acts cannot rationally be assigned a "zero harm" value. And as you ARE doing harm (just that the harm is below the noticable threshold) you cannot with good conscience do such a thing, as moral principles must be applied on the basis of "What if everyone else does the same thing?".
I'm dissapointed Merdaneth. The Argument from the Insignificant Difference was refuted ages ago (by rationalists).

Beyond that there is the, very rational, need to protect your prestige and influence.

Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.03.11 15:14:00 - [10]
 

I really like this reflection. The freedom of mind instead of physical freedom. Yet I think we have to fight for the physical freedom of our brothers too, because it is the next step on the latter of freedom.

And Merdaneth, I wonder you don't swindle when turning words soo fast. Where did Nachshon say, a free choice needs to be a rational choice? What he said is, I quote: The answer is to make every action a conscious choice. Think, even if only for the briefest sliver of time, even if only to decide that there is no time for pondering a decision.

That doesn't exclude emotional choices, does it? And if your emotions are turned up so hot you don't think any more at all, well that is from my point of view not a free decision. You are a slave of your emotion in that moment. Also you can choose to live your live after your emotions, you can choose not to. An emotional choice made that way wouldn't be irrational because it included the pre-stage thinking process of making emotion your No1 priority.

It also doesn't need any higher authority to judge upon the category of your choices (for sure this argument had to come from a slaver). You only have to stand responsible to your choices before yourself. I admit that in this there are other views, as you would say for example you are responsible to God, too. But this is another choice you make, the choice to accept a higher authority than yourself. If this choise is wisely considered it may be a free choice too.

Mebrithiel Ju'wien
Moira.
Posted - 2007.03.11 15:23:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Example
I'll give one more example to show the folly of your reasoning:

You are part of a thousand Matari freedom fighters defending a village. A group of 500 slavers descends upon the village in order to capture some slaves. You know that your 1000 will be easily able to repulse the attack, but will take a few losses. You also know that 999 Matari will be able to repulse the attack, with about the same amount of losses.

The rational choice would be to run and let your 999 brothers to repulse the attack, for you would still achieve your desired goal, only you would not have the risk of getting killed yourself.

If you can name one rational argument for you not to run in that situation, please do so.

Undefined parameters abound here. This example is disgustingly misleading. A rational arguement for you not to run would be if you were the leader of these men; resulting in a significant difference in efficiency were you not to be seen leading your defense.

Merdaneth, I've been noting your participation in this most mired of debates. You'll have to do better than throwing quasi-riddles out in view of a public who have seen it all before.

Just because the Amarr Empire has become as morally bankrupt as the Federation, doesn't mean you have to act an arse waiting to get shafted.

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2007.03.12 10:12:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Rocius
Originally by: Merdaneth

If you can name one rational argument for you not to run in that situation, please do so.



Honor




*Cough* Pride

Don't fool yourself into believing that Matari have 'honour', having sided with most morally reprehensible fiends.

Hooch Flux
Caldari
Posted - 2007.03.12 12:12:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Hooch Flux on 12/03/2007 12:09:10
Originally by: Merdaneth

You are part of a thousand Matari freedom fighters defending a village. A group of 500 slavers descends upon the village in order to capture some slaves. You know that your 1000 will be easily able to repulse the attack, but will take a few losses. You also know that 999 Matari will be able to repulse the attack, with about the same amount of losses.

The rational choice would be to run and let your 999 brothers to repulse the attack, for you would still achieve your desired goal, only you would not have the risk of getting killed yourself.

If you can name one rational argument for you not to run in that situation, please do so.


Rational to whom? It's all relative! What is rational to one person may not be rational to another. Putting down your life for a brother to fight an enemy sworn on domination, even if it is with overwhelming odds and with no doubt that your side would win is rational to some. What about the rationality of the Slaver commander, isn't he just as irrational for attempting to raid a village with the odds stacked against him?
So I have to say freedom has nothing to do with rationality and more to do with sheer "Bloody-mindedness".
Freedom is the ability to make a decision, whether that decision is based on logic, emotion or whatever. Freedom is the ability to make that decision.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.03.13 00:09:00 - [14]
 

Emotional choices can be choices. A non-choice is where you don't think at all, acting on impulse or instinct. An emotional choice could be between, say, staying with your spouse/lover, and joining your comrades in battle (and yes, I have had a lover - she was a fellow student at the State War Academy who suffered mindlock, which ended our relationship).

And as for what is rational, nobody determines that. That is a subjective designation.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.03.14 03:58:00 - [15]
 

No further comments? Has my last post silenced all other arguments?

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2007.03.14 07:20:00 - [16]
 

When a lie is big enough, argument becomes folly.

Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
Posted - 2007.03.14 12:08:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Drethon on 14/03/2007 12:08:48
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: Rocius
Originally by: Merdaneth

If you can name one rational argument for you not to run in that situation, please do so.



Honor




*Cough* Pride

Don't fool yourself into believing that Matari have 'honour', having sided with most morally reprehensible fiends.


The exact situation being described was of a person defending his people from being taken from their home and forced to work for another.

What choice would you make if some group said their leader was god and told them to take all of your people to be his personal slaves? Admittedly the Amarr only claim their leaders know the will of god but it looks just as bad to someone who does not understand or believe in your god.

Giving someone the understanding and freedom to convert will alway result in stronger followers than forcing someone to follow something they do not believe in.

Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
When a lie is big enough, argument becomes folly.


When a lie is big enough, the argument becomes obvious. If argument is folly, you do not know what argument to make or have had your will to fight destroyed by your opponent.

Ostos Marek
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.03.14 12:38:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Ostos Marek on 14/03/2007 12:34:47
Originally by: Hooch Flux

Freedom is the ability to make a decision, whether that decision is based on logic, emotion or whatever. Freedom is the ability to make that decision.


I agree with this statement 100%. Although lets touch on freedom in this life. God gives us 1 ultimate choice, follow Him or suffer Oblivion. All other choices flow to this last choice (in this world). All your previous choices/actions lead you to this destination, whether you believe it or not.

Your actions and choices throughout life truly choose how you answer this final question.

I have seen God, although I am no prophet. If you have not seen God, look to children to see Him. Creating a being so innocent, but with the ability to choose it's own corruption or salvation through action, is truly a miracle.

Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.14 13:24:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
I have seen God, although I am no prophet. If you have not seen God, look to children to see Him. Creating a being so innocent, but with the ability to choose it's own corruption or salvation through action, is truly a miracle.


And yet to holders a new life born of Minmatar parents is just another tool to be used up and discarded. Your argument falls on it's face. Not even a good try. Bye now, pretender.

Ostos Marek
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.03.14 15:34:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Wren
Quote:
I have seen God, although I am no prophet. If you have not seen God, look to children to see Him. Creating a being so innocent, but with the ability to choose it's own corruption or salvation through action, is truly a miracle.


And yet to holders a new life born of Minmatar parents is just another tool to be used up and discarded. Your argument falls on it's face. Not even a good try. Bye now, pretender.


Keep your forked tongue in its place, heathen Ushra'Khan. The Ammatar Mandate is a standing testament to Minmatar (rightfully called Ammatar) in service to the Empire and not being "used up and discarded" as you so elequently put it. Your words hold no meaning whatsoever.



Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
Posted - 2007.03.14 15:51:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ostos Marek

Keep your forked tongue in its place, heathen Ushra'Khan. The Ammatar Mandate is a standing testament to Minmatar (rightfully called Ammatar) in service to the Empire and not being "used up and discarded" as you so elequently put it. Your words hold no meaning whatsoever.



The concern is not about the Ammatar who serve the Empire out of their free will but the Minmatar that have been forced down the path that their Amarr masters have chosen for them. For these people, God's gift of choice has been forcibly removed.

Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.14 15:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Wren
Quote:
I have seen God, although I am no prophet. If you have not seen God, look to children to see Him. Creating a being so innocent, but with the ability to choose it's own corruption or salvation through action, is truly a miracle.


And yet to holders a new life born of Minmatar parents is just another tool to be used up and discarded. Your argument falls on it's face. Not even a good try. Bye now, pretender.


Keep your forked tongue in its place, heathen Ushra'Khan. The Ammatar Mandate is a standing testament to Minmatar (rightfully called Ammatar) in service to the Empire and not being "used up and discarded" as you so elequently put it. Your words hold no meaning whatsoever.


No, you hold your tongue, lapdog. Your status of the favorite pet of the week is due to your selling out the rest of the Minmatar for a spot closer to the table so you can get what the Slaverhounds leave behind.

Your place is secure within their society as long as you serve the purpose of being a buffer between us and them. As soon as your usefullness is at an end you will be just another neck to step on.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.03.15 01:14:00 - [23]
 

OK, I may be a Matari loyalist, but I will not let my thread become another Amarr-Minmatar battleground.

Enthes goldhart
Gallente
Mindstar Technology
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2007.03.15 04:06:00 - [24]
 

Freedom is what you make of it, alot like god

Niin Orana
Posted - 2007.03.19 09:51:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth


Example
I'll give one more example to show the folly of your reasoning:

You are part of a thousand Matari freedom fighters defending a village. A group of 500 slavers descends upon the village in order to capture some slaves. You know that your 1000 will be easily able to repulse the attack, but will take a few losses. You also know that 999 Matari will be able to repulse the attack, with about the same amount of losses.

The rational choice would be to run and let your 999 brothers to repulse the attack, for you would still achieve your desired goal, only you would not have the risk of getting killed yourself.

If you can name one rational argument for you not to run in that situation, please do so.


How can you get a kill count if you run!? Plus, if I were one of the 999 that stayed and fought, and saw you run off like a little girl, I would kill you. See... your odds were better off against the other guys.

Rhaguvir Khan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.03.19 11:54:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Rhaguvir Khan on 19/03/2007 11:52:11
My very own personal opinion on what is freedom:

You are free, if you have the chance to make yourself satisfied with your life.

For those, who may not see the point in this, I may give 2 examples:

1. You can be poor, you can be enslaved, you can be forced to work all day for the sake of a slaver. But you still can be free, if you are decent with fate and enjoy small things of life as seeing your family and know, they are not in deathly danger or putting a small amount of poison in your slavers meal every day. Although it may not be enough for some, it can be enough for the ones who has no other chances in life - yet.

2. You can be rich, you can be able to buy whatever you want, but still you can be bound and not free, if you cannot be satisfied by anything you do.

Kaleigh Doyle
Gallente
Racing News Network
Posted - 2007.03.19 18:58:00 - [27]
 

When someone asks the question, "what is freedom?", you're really alluding to a much larger issue of morality and individual interpretation of the ideals of what is lawful and illegal. When a law restricts the act of murder, civilized society generally regards this as a reasonable limitation of freedom whereas preventing someone from leaving a place or speaking their mind would be much less tolerable a limitation to withstand. The situation then evolves to what's best for society.

Is humanity better with rampant murder? Should chemically hazardous materials be sold openly to children? Is expressing an opinion dangerous?

It's a topic not easily answered nor worthy of an oversimplified response. One simply has to go with what they feel is right, and ultimately those with the strength of character and determination(and guns), will dictate what's best for society.

xoxo

Tatsue Nuko
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.03.19 19:12:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle
When a law restricts the act of murder, civilized society generally regards this as a reasonable limitation of freedom


So, in essence, your definition of freedom is "to do anything", and restrictions on that "anything" by the ruling classes, whomever they are that are strong enough to force the implementation of their will, is "reasonable limitations"?

Kaleigh Doyle
Gallente
Racing News Network
Posted - 2007.03.19 19:33:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Tatsue Nuko

So, in essence, your definition of freedom is "to do anything", and restrictions on that "anything" by the ruling classes, whomever they are that are strong enough to force the implementation of their will, is "reasonable limitations"?

Organized society has rules. Those rules are dictated and enforced by society, not just the ruling classes.

The larger question is, "is influencing a decision with a deterrant effect always a limitation of freedom?" If a person is prevented from doing something they never desire to do, are they being repressed?


Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.19 20:34:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle

The larger question is, "is influencing a decision with a deterrant effect always a limitation of freedom?" If a person is prevented from doing something they never desire to do, are they being repressed?


I have many slaves that are perfectly content with their lives, and don't desire to be 'set free'. Still many Matari feel that my slaves are being repressed because they think they would feel so in their place, and will thus abduct them.

I don't feel repressed too, but Star Fraction seems determined to 'free me' from repressive imperialistic memes nonetheless.

So for many people the answer to your question seems to be: yes.


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