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Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.10 06:39:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Mortania on 10/03/2007 06:36:11
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: RC Denton
"The game's AI and encounters have remained largely static since launch, with NPCs reacting in a fairly dumb way. However recently several developers mentioned changes to the AI system of the game, when can we expect to see these changes? Unfortunately, the NPCs currently in space won't be "educated" any time in the near future. While these changes are looked for, Mangus stated unequivocally that they'd be spending their time putting their energies into the NPCs on the stations for the Ambulation Project; touching those in space would require a change to the core code of the game and they avoid this whenever possible. It simply comes down to resource allocation and they see a richer game experience occurring by creating depth in the Ambulation Project then by touching the older content due to time constraints.



I'm afraid this doesn't actually invalidate my point, despite what you may think.

Why? Because the people involved in creating Ambulation will be animators, modellers, mappers and texturers - all very different schools of creation to AI coding. AI coders do not do in-station animations, modelling and design, nor do animators, modellers and designers program artificial intelligences. the two are basically incompatible.

As such, the people working on the WIS project WILL be a different team working on different aspects of the game. Their operation on that project will have no bearing on code-related aspects of the game (bug-fixing, AI, etc) because they aren't coders.

Now, I won't speculate as to where those designers might have gone. The point is that any re-allocation of resources was minor at best


Money is entirely liquid. While CCP chose to spend (let's pull a number out of the air) 3.5M ISK creating Ambulation, they could have just as easily spent that amount hiring more programmers, designers, producers, testers or hardware making the core game better.

Money spent is money spent. This is money that could be making our game better. Instead it is money being spent on making this game more like Earth and Beyond or Star Wars Galaxies. w00t! I loved those games!



Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2007.03.10 06:48:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Yendri
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I will endorse this development if they allow us to defenestrate people.


won't that also involve depressurisation of the station, however? :)



Airlocks have windows.

Tek'a Rain
Gallente
Collegium Mechanicae
Posted - 2007.03.10 07:50:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Tek''a Rain on 10/03/2007 07:47:40
Originally by: Mortania
Edited by: Mortania on 10/03/2007 06:36:11

Money is entirely liquid. While CCP chose to spend (let's pull a number out of the air) 3.5M ISK creating Ambulation, they could have just as easily spent that amount hiring more programmers, designers, producers, testers or hardware making the core game better.

Money spent is money spent. This is money that could be making our game better. Instead it is money being spent on making this game more like Earth and Beyond or Star Wars Galaxies. w00t! I loved those games!





Il give you the benifit of the doubt and assume your Pretending to be dense. part of the CCP/WhiteWolf Buyout was CCP committing to build an mmo with the Worlds Of Darkness IP. this is a big project. that, in your example, 3.5mil isk and certainly more is going to be spent on this un-named game project. full stop. the programmers, the money and the design is ALL BEING USED, PAID OR CODED FOR THE WOD GAME. repeat this to yourself. 12 times, then go on reading.

the ambulation project is the testbed. they are taking the money they are spending on something Else and Also making eve better, or at least trying. so in summary.. read before you speak, try not to make a fool of yourself and WIS is something your going to pay for, so you might as well Get something for it.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.03.10 08:04:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Mortania

Money is entirely liquid. While CCP chose to spend (let's pull a number out of the air) 3.5M ISK creating Ambulation, they could have just as easily spent that amount hiring more programmers, designers, producers, testers or hardware making the core game better.



I don't believe it's that simple. You can't just hire more and more programmers to do more and more stuff. Eventually it becomes a mess because they all have to work together and share code/notes/etc.

That said, I really don't think that limit has been reached. I'd really like to see them fix the basic things that are currently a "low priority". I'm not sure their priorities are very wise.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.10 08:12:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Tek'a Rain
Edited by: Tek''a Rain on 10/03/2007 07:47:40
Originally by: Mortania
Edited by: Mortania on 10/03/2007 06:36:11

Money is entirely liquid. While CCP chose to spend (let's pull a number out of the air) 3.5M ISK creating Ambulation, they could have just as easily spent that amount hiring more programmers, designers, producers, testers or hardware making the core game better.

Money spent is money spent. This is money that could be making our game better. Instead it is money being spent on making this game more like Earth and Beyond or Star Wars Galaxies. w00t! I loved those games!





Il give you the benifit of the doubt and assume your Pretending to be dense. part of the CCP/WhiteWolf Buyout was CCP committing to build an mmo with the Worlds Of Darkness IP. this is a big project. that, in your example, 3.5mil isk and certainly more is going to be spent on this un-named game project. full stop. the programmers, the money and the design is ALL BEING USED, PAID OR CODED FOR THE WOD GAME. repeat this to yourself. 12 times, then go on reading.

the ambulation project is the testbed. they are taking the money they are spending on something Else and Also making eve better, or at least trying. so in summary.. read before you speak, try not to make a fool of yourself and WIS is something your going to pay for, so you might as well Get something for it.


So, it is your contention that development, debugging, implementatin, maintenance and expansion of this feature will never come from a pool of money that could ever have been used for improving the core EVE experience?

Have you played the game with a fresh perspective in a long while? There are so many bugs that we just LIVE with or have hacked work arounds for; official documentation of features is about the worst of any live MMO out there; fleet lag, database lag, market lag, wallet lag, lag lag.

I love this game, most enjoyable MMO on the market pretty much ever. I thought I would MISS this feature when I switched from E&B beta to EVE live; but I didn't. In fact, it was a massive improvement.

Yeah sure, it's entirely optional now. But, if it's really expensive to maintain (which it will be with it's own servers, own bugs, and lag issues), someone will eventually decide it needs to be integrated into the main game in some way. Even CCP can and does change their minds (I still wish I could find the original dev quote stating that EVE wouldn't have walking in stations ever).

No, I'm not going to quit over it; but neither will I sit around and just quietly accept it when CCP does something or proposes something that I don't agree with. My $15 a month entitles me to as much forum posting and opinion making as everyone else. Go on, love the feature. I don't. Nor am I deluded into thinking its FREE!!!

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.10 08:22:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Frug
Originally by: Mortania

Money is entirely liquid. While CCP chose to spend (let's pull a number out of the air) 3.5M ISK creating Ambulation, they could have just as easily spent that amount hiring more programmers, designers, producers, testers or hardware making the core game better.



I don't believe it's that simple. You can't just hire more and more programmers to do more and more stuff. Eventually it becomes a mess because they all have to work together and share code/notes/etc. You've read the quote, you responded in the thread:

That said, I really don't think that limit has been reached. I'd really like to see them fix the basic things that are currently a "low priority". I'm not sure their priorities are very wise.


Agreed. Too many devs is often a problem, read The Mythical Man Month for some great insight into why more != better.

That said, 3 college grads working at CCP could write more documentation for EVE-O that you could shake stick at in a long Icelandic summer. A stalwart group of 8 junior coders and 1 senior coder could rewrite the UI system from the ground up in about 5 months. A pack of near minimum wage outsourced QA guys could track and write a pile of bugs so high 60 programmers would be kept busy for years fixing them.

So yeah, we're in agreement, CCP isn't at it's limit. Management focus? I think they've exceeded it, what with China, CCG, WW, WOD, etc. It feels like they've lost touch with their core product. It doesn't get the attention of the core orginal devs that it used to. Many/most of them have moved up or on from daily interaction of their bread and butter.

Originally by: Magnus Bergsson @ this year's GDC

"With so much focus paid on 0.0 space, it's often easy to forget that some players intentionally avoid the strife and spend time in Empire where gangs are not of importance. Because of this, there's no advantage or impetus to join a gang. I asked Magnus what was in the pipeline to change this? His reaction was amusing. He was honestly surprised as, like many EVE developers, he had moved on from Empire and lives in 0.0; it simply hadn't occurred to him that many players weren't ganging up since in 0.0 space gangs are essential to survive."



Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2007.03.10 12:16:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 10/03/2007 12:26:47
Edited by: Stitcher on 10/03/2007 12:18:24
Edited by: Stitcher on 10/03/2007 12:17:21
Originally by: Mortania
Money is entirely liquid. While CCP chose to spend (let's pull a number out of the air) 3.5M ISK creating Ambulation, they could have just as easily spent that amount hiring more programmers, designers, producers, testers or hardware making the core game better.

Money spent is money spent. This is money that could be making our game better. Instead it is money being spent on making this game more like Earth and Beyond or Star Wars Galaxies. w00t! I loved those games!


I concede the point the point about money being fluid... but I definitely don't agree with you on the "more like E&B or SWG" thing. CCP have a history of managing to pull off new additions to the game with flare, style and competence. They're clearly as excited about this project as I am, if not more so... and that probably means it won't be a half-baked failure, especially if they're throwing even only half of the money you seem to be suspecting at it.

The big failure of the E&B and SWG teams was that they stopped caring about their project and moved onto something else. CCP are devoted to, and enthusiastic about EVE. You can practically see pure gaseous fanboyism wafting from every dev blog or CCP staff post. With that degree of enthusiasm applied, I really can't believe that this feature is going to make the game suck - they'll be taking every effort to enhance the game.

I find it impossible not to be excited at the prospect of this feature and am choosing to assume that it isn't going to wreck the game.

What it will contribute to the game beyond coolness factor, roleplay opportunity and eye candy remains to be seen... but for those three added benefits alone, I endorse this product and/or service.

Originally by: Tek'a Rain
Edited by: Tek''a Rain on 10/03/2007 07:47:40
Il give you the benifit of the doubt and assume your Pretending to be dense. part of the CCP/WhiteWolf Buyout was CCP committing to build an mmo with the Worlds Of Darkness IP. this is a big project. that, in your example, 3.5mil isk and certainly more is going to be spent on this un-named game project. full stop. the programmers, the money and the design is ALL BEING USED, PAID OR CODED FOR THE WOD GAME. repeat this to yourself. 12 times, then go on reading.


To play the Devil's Advocate for a second... why are CCP spending money on a WoD game at all? Surely that takes money and management focus away from EVE?

Now, bear in mind, I'm actually pretty interested in the WoD game myself, being a Vampire LARPer. The point is that Mortania has raised a valid point. CCP has only a finite amount of resources. Money going into one project is money that is not going into dealing with other issues.

That said, I would tend to assume that their resource, while finite, is also quite a large number, and that they can afford to multitask like this without detrimentally affecting the work on any of the projects too much.

Furthermore, it's not like throwing everything they have at a single feature is going to miraculously make that feature be built and ready instantly. That sort of thing is, to borrow some in-game terminology, stacking nerfed - past a certain plateau, further cash injecting is met by only token improvements. As such, it doesn't make sense to throw everything you have at one project - it won't get that project done any significant degree faster.

Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.10 18:42:00 - [68]
 

Why is CCP wasting time and money on these forums rather than fixing the game! Shut down the forums and get to work!!

Rolling Eyes

Hana Brenecki
Posted - 2007.03.11 00:57:00 - [69]
 

Hey, looky at this:

Quote:
If I had a million isk for every person I've heard say "I'd play Eve if you could get out of your ship and actually see your character" I'd be a rich man - and these aren't people avoiding the game because it's too complex, they're people avoiding the game because there aren't enough social tools. Given that Eve gets the tech pretty much free (as it's needed for WoD anyway), the effort that'll be expended to allow all these extra socially-minded players into the game is well worth it IMO, as they're exactly the sort of people that will be good for the game.


Someone else actually gets it. How awesome. Can't remember who originally wrote this, but let's get married.

As for the 'resources' argument, erm... no. I know from working in a big corporation myself, that if you hire more people and throw more money at a delicate ongoing technical problem (i.e bugfixing), it more often than not just stuffs everything right up. Plenty of real-world examples of this.

And bugfixing isn't being neglected anyway. Hey, do you reckon the next patch will contain:

1. Walking In Stations
2. Bugfixes

I'm betting we'll see 2. before we see 1.

But even if it was true that bugfixing was being neglected, (which it's not) Ambulation is probably far more important for the continued life of the game than bugfixing anyway, whether you like it or not, for a whole host of blatantly obvious reasons, most of which are alluded to by the paragraph I quoted above, hence saving me pages of typing. Damn I love that guy.

Okay, flame away now, I have my flame-proof goggles on. Cool

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2007.03.11 03:29:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Hana Brenecki
As for the 'resources' argument, erm... no. I know from working in a big corporation myself, that if you hire more people and throw more money at a delicate ongoing technical problem (i.e bugfixing), it more often than not just stuffs everything right up. Plenty of real-world examples of this.


I do believe you just echoed my own statement... nice to have it confirmed by someone with a professional understanding (as opposed to my own amateurish interest).

The big sources of complaint over Ambulation seem to come from three sources:

1: The "It'll turn this game into Earth and Beyond or Star Wars Galaxies" crowd
2: The "There's no point to it... it'll be boring" crowd
3: The "It takes time, money and focus away from more important issues" crowd.

In response:

1: I don't believe it will. CCP have always put a lot of effort into getting new features as right as (and usually better than) what we could reasonably expect of them. I can't predict that the addition of this feature will in any way be detrimental to the game, especially as it will be entirely optional. And without dance animations (except, as I've said before, hopefully of the variety that involves a pole and an athletic lady), it won't detract from EVE's more "mature" style next to some other MMOs

2: This depends purely on what the player is looking for. Sure, there'll be nothing in the way of pew-pew, and all the stuff you can do in-station can be done from the pod as well... but this feature is more or less 100% roleplay-oriented, which I can't help but endorse. There simply isn't enough RP in this game for my tastes. Besides, sometimes, Eye candy for the sake of eye candy is reason enough.

3: This complaint, I think, mostly stems from an incomplete understanding of business finance, and the mechanics of game design.

Quote:
But even if it was true that bugfixing was being neglected, (which it's not) Ambulation is probably far more important for the continued life of the game than bugfixing anyway...


QFT. Without future development and adaptation, game experiences become stagnant after a while, which is one of the reasons why MMOs and other multiplayer games usually have far more replay value than single-player games. Still, without updates, upgrades, new features, innovation and adaptation, eventually even the best and most interesting MMOs in the world become stagnant and players start to lose interest. Ambulation is a step (ahaha.) in a new direction for EVE - one that could potentially see it blossom into something a lot bigger and more interesting than its initial concept. Contrary to some people's believes, I'd say it would be entirely possible to implement all kinds of extra game features without ever abandoning the core concept of the game.

Quote:
Okay, flame away now, I have my flame-proof goggles on. Cool


The goggles, they do.... something?

Wulfstan
Caldari
The Sweeney
Posted - 2007.03.11 11:08:00 - [71]
 


I'm offloading a large stock of trousers from my van, parked around the back of Caldari Navy Plant, Jita.

Tech II "Purple Loon" variants also available.

Just back in stock, Caldari Navy trousers and Imperial Flares.

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2007.03.11 12:10:00 - [72]
 

Ambulation - Why not?


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