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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.03.05 17:53:00 - [151]
 

I say.. look at CIV IV map of influence. Even if your city is tiny and in middle of several enemy ships it has a MINIMAl influence radius. So I would say.. make that an outpost generate at least a x radius that MUST be yours no matter how many other outposts are around you.

Diragi
Caldari
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
Posted - 2007.03.05 17:56:00 - [152]
 

Good point, influence shouldn't overwrite sovereignty. Though people should remember is an 'influence' map, not control.

DerHund Erste
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.03.05 17:58:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: DerHund Erste on 05/03/2007 18:25:32
Edited by: DerHund Erste on 05/03/2007 18:23:54
Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer
The basic problem here, and I'll say it again, is that number of pos's do not necessarily equal influence. I'm not, for example, an Xpact member, but from experience, I can tell you that there's noone seriously questioning their control of their particular constellation. The fact that a fairly numerous alliance in unchallenged control of over a dozen systems doesn't show up on this map at all because they haven't bothered with pos spamming every system makes the map less useful to most people. Someone travelling near B-7 and relying on your map for guidance will be quite surprised to find XPact there.
<snip>
Influence is not a mathematical concept. You can have 50 poses up all over nearby space, but if you huddle in your home system except to refuel them periodically you don't have true influence. Alternatively, if you own one station system, but you regularly patrol nearby systems, you have great control over those systems. The other maps may be subject to argument and flubdubbery, but then so are national borders in the real world sometimes. India/Pakistan border anyone?

This map is a very interesting initial concept. But it needs to take pos spam a little less seriously, and introduce a few other factors. At the least, it needs to accurately reflect where a station or system has sov that is different from the "dominant influence" or you just confuse travellers.


I think that if you select the right set of measurement factors and proper weighting factors for them, you can indeed get a good indicator of influence and ownership of an area.

Number and size of POS certainly indicates a level of activity and commitment to a location that is pretty high. Buying, feeding, and protecting them is weekly chore. It is a good measurement of the owner's logistical commitment, and therefore, their 'staying power'. An enemy deathstar POS in a system should certainly start negating ownership/influence well before sovreignty starts to change.

#pilots in system at a given time is certainly an indicator of population density. This will ebb and flow based on the timezone changes, but I think you could average some samples for the key times (Euro, E-US, W-US, Australian, and Russian)

#ships destroyed in a system would be a good factor to help negate ownership of the system. It's clear to me that if a system has 500 ships destroyed in 24 hours, the system is 'contested', regardless of which side claims ownership. Pod kills would further magnify the conflict scenario.

As a whole, I think this mapping method is spot on! Influence is overrated when you start taking the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Deception) factor out of the view by substituting facts.

- DerHund


Thoric Frosthammer
Gallente
Vanguard Frontiers
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.03.05 18:34:00 - [154]
 

Derhund, all I'm saying is, that from personal experience, I know of at least one alliance whose control over its region is completely misrespresented by this map. If there's one right next to me, it implies there may be more.

As to the comment about poss reflecting a commitment to the area: Yes, but commitment is not control. In the more established regions maybe, but in the new region they are basically part of the free for all stake a claim mentality going on in the region at the moment. I can tell you that there are plenty of pos's in some odd locations out here that are more in the vein of your cat marking territory by peeing on it than any actual control over that particular system or constellation.

I agree with the concept someone put in earlier of basic minimum spheres of influence. An outpost should, at a minimum, control a certain amount of space around it, absent say, a hostile pos in the next system. That might be a good solution. In fact, lookin at the way its done in civ IV would probably yield better results.

SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2007.03.05 19:28:00 - [155]
 

This is a nice map a lot, I'd love to see one which included NCP Empires :)

Actually I think the formula needs a little changing because it may not be the case in which an alliance even if it owns an outpost is completely dominated by a larger alliance.

The influence map I saw for another game was a little more complex on the formula.

In EVE Translation.

Each Claimed system has a +2 Influence.
Systems with an outpost omit say 5 jump influence that lowers by 1 every jump
System owned by an alliance omit a 2 jump influence that lowers by 1 every jump
Non-claimed systems omit a -1 jump influence on all intercepting alliances.

All influence is compounding when interception of the same alliance.

See the -1 influence is great when covering large alliances like BOB. BOB Don't claim every system in their space. You'll be surprised just how much the map would change if you made non-claimed system a -1 influence.

The idea is if you have an outpost and your closest claimed system is 4 jumps away your influence is very light. Because it does this.

Outpost system +7 (5 for the outpost 2 for the claimed system)
1 Jump out +4 (+4 from the outpost, -1 because it's an unclaimed system, +1 because it's next to a claimed system)
2 jumps out +2 (+3 from the outpost, -1 because it's an unclaimed system)
3 jumps out +2 (+2 from the outpost -1 because it's an unclaimed -1 because it's unclaimed, +1 because it's next to a claimed system)
Claimed system 4 jumps out +3 (+1 from the outpost, and 2 for the claimed system)

A great example of why I think the formula you used is a little off is IAC. Not to say they don't hold a large area, but lets be honest they have a HUGE claim on your map :)

Blood Thorn
Minmatar
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.03.05 19:55:00 - [156]
 

Very, very well done. Very Happy

0August0
Gallente
Gooch Unlimited
Posted - 2007.03.05 20:21:00 - [157]
 

When I try to access the map i get this message:

Quote:
Your IP/subnet has been forcibly banned due to network abuse.

All access has been logged for security reasons.


Woooo. scary, but being has how I am accessing this from work and this is the first time I or anyone else has tried to access this file or site from here I can't see why I should be getting this error.

Bottom line perhaps the map owner should move his map to a more dependable website.


Mithfindel
Amarr
Ordo Crucis Argenteus
Posted - 2007.03.05 20:30:00 - [158]
 

Like someone mentioned earlier, it'd be nice that the map showed - in addition to influence - also who's holding the system.

Hence, on the first pass influence would be drawn. On the second pass, stars would be coloured by the colour assigned to the alliance claiming them. This would allow to show renters as well, without comparison between this map and the ingame sov map.

Also, it'd be nice if the Empires would show. Say, all high sec systems generate a minor amount of influence for their owner? Even that way it'd be more than enough to stop the Player Alliance influence gradient reaching high sec - low sec is perfectly ok to be influenced by near 0.0 alliances in my opinion.

And also, about the borderlines/gradient: Perchance it'd be possible to make the gradient nonlinear, so that it does first decrease slowly, and then starts to decrease faster? As in, if now the colour fades in relative to distance from influence, it could fade, say, relative to the square of the distance. This would make the central parts of the 'influenced' area have more solid a colour, and then it'd start to fade faster. Borderlines between neighbours would still be pretty sharp, if they would be close enough.

Paladin Vent
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.03.05 21:19:00 - [159]
 

Influence map updated.
Recent changes:
- Border contrast greatly reduced.
- Slightly redused the spread of the territory over the empty space.
- Changed font and color of the alliances. The size of the alliance name is proportional to its territory.
- Legend removed.
- Image width reduced.

Rikeka
Amarr
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2007.03.05 21:26:00 - [160]
 

Aah, pff. I give up.
Nor that we care that much: Most of the alliances depicted on the drone regions depend on others not shown there. If that`s not influence, I don`t what is it.

Halafian
Caldari
Frequency Crystal Emporium
Posted - 2007.03.05 21:40:00 - [161]
 

Gorgeous map!

Really well done.

I'd vote for a sticky for this. Automatic process, great looks, clear rationale -- what's not to like?

Terrific work.

Internet Knight
Caldari
The Kobayashi Maru
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2007.03.05 21:44:00 - [162]
 

Wow. I saw this topic yesterday, but didn't look at the map as I had to go in a few moments. Topic's grown a lot since then ;)

Good work, Paladin, keep it up.
I vote for a stickied thread.

Originally by: 0August0
Quote:
Your IP/subnet has been forcibly banned due to network abuse.

All access has been logged for security reasons.


Woooo. scary, but being has how I am accessing this from work and this is the first time I or anyone else has tried to access this file or site from here I can't see why I should be getting this error.

Bottom line perhaps the map owner should move his map to a more dependable website.
eve-files is very dependable. I also got that error, but now it is fixed. I believe it to be spurious.

Originally by: Paladin Vent
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
A suggestion. You could add a way to introduce number of player in the equation. Because an alliance that fields 1000 members in a space with 2 outpost... have far more influence than anotehr alliance that fields 100 players on a space with teh same 2 outposts.

Let's look on hypothetical alliance of 1000 players. 400 of them are residing on the empire and were never seen in 0.0. 580 of them are alts or inactive players. And the last 20 is living on the outpost. Is that alliance better than an alliance of 50 active members, living in 0.0?

Member count means nothing. If your alliance have 1000 active members in 2 systems, you'll die in the lags. :)
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
well than you can use a number based on average players active in last hour snapshot.


I just find really unrealistic taht 100 players with 8 pos spread ed in a large area will have more inlfuence for example than 1000 players with 8 poses in a ssame huge area. The 100 players will very hardly visit all their territory to have real influence.
Paladin, I suggest you base the map on three things, in these orders:

  • Sovereignty

  • Avg players in space

  • Ships destroyed


Obviously, #2 and #3 would require hourly or at the very least daily dumps of players in space and ships destroyed. Without knowing how you're getting your sovereignty data, I don't know how easy it would be to get the other data so frequently.

If you *could* get the data frequently enough, then I suggest that you leave the current sovereignty gradient as is, and add a secondary 75% transparent gradient of the opposite color showing the calculation of (avg players / ships destroyed), the gradient's radius being 75% the size of the sovereignty gradient. The result would be a large sovereignty gradient and (if there are a lot of ships destroyed compared to avg players) a off-color warszone gradient inside of the sovereignty gradient.


Please do some smoothing on the fonts and borders, they hurt my eyes.

Also, there are several issues where the text makes it really hard to see some systems/outposts. I suggest that each system/outpost extend a 3- or 5-pixel radius where text is not allowed to be drawn. Then your program could *attempt* to find a box location (box width/height equal to the size of the alliance name when drawn) completely embedded within the sovereignty area, and draw there. If no suitable area is found, then you find the nearest suitable area even if in another alliance's sovereignty, draw there, draw a box around the alliance's text the same color as the alliance's sovereignty, and draw a line from the alliance's text to the alliance's sovereignty boundary.

Internet Knight
Caldari
The Kobayashi Maru
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2007.03.05 21:44:00 - [163]
 

What's more is that you could identify locations where an alliance claims two non-contiguous areas of space (for example, Goonswarm has two yellow blurbs currently), and either print the alliance name multiple times (once in each blurb), or print it once in a non-sovereign area and link both blurbs to eachother via lines to their boundaries.

I'm also not a designer, but I'll try and see if I can come up with a diagram showing you what I mean in MS Paint, if you ask once more... but I do hope I was clear enough.


As far as centering the sovereignty blurbs, I think that needs to be worked on. I take my point to the Ratel sovereignty. We've got sovereignty on four systems: I8-AJY, 1-EVAX, B2J-5N, and XTVZ-E. According to your map, our sovereignty is centered around I8-AJY and does *not* extend to 1-EVAX, B2J-5N, and XTVZ-E. I find it highly interesting that our area of influence contains 1 system that we have sovereignty and several that we don't, whereas 3 systems we do claim sovereignty do not get into our area of influence.
I also want to point out that it's really hard to see I8-AJY, as it is right in the middle of the "A" in Alliance in Ratel Alliance, a prime example of what I was referring to with the systems needing a radius of no-text-draw.


Again, good work, Paladin Vent. Keep it up.

Wylker
Caldari
Pyrrhus Sicarii
Posted - 2007.03.05 21:49:00 - [164]
 

Your thread title got pwnt somehow.

Felice Remillard
Minmatar
Flatline Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.05 22:40:00 - [165]
 

Outstanding map.

Any chance of doing the map in different resolutions? Would look great in 1920 x 1200 as my desktop background Wink. As it it, stretching it to fit messes up the text.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.03.05 22:59:00 - [166]
 

Commendable work.
Graz on it.

DerHund Erste
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.03.05 23:16:00 - [167]
 

The latest update is awesome. It really clarifies a lot in terms of where folks really are, versus what they "claim." It's hard to argue away bright/brilliant color spots or chest beat about vaguely visible spots surrounded with black.

I've book marked this thread and use this one as the gold standard / heavy dose of salt for the other 'political' maps.

- DerHund

Aaron Static
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.03.06 00:42:00 - [168]
 

This is awesome.

You're awesome.

United Legion is awesome.

Patch86
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.06 01:51:00 - [169]
 

Er Paladin, your thread title's gone missing :P

Gaurav
Caldari
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
Posted - 2007.03.06 01:57:00 - [170]
 

Bookmark worth Very Happy

Thanks!!!

TJ17
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.03.06 04:34:00 - [171]
 

mods please sticky this awsome map already =P

SPQRMocton
Minmatar
Vertigo Heavy Industries
Vertigo Coalition
Posted - 2007.03.06 04:49:00 - [172]
 

second the stcky notion

Razor Jaxx
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.03.06 06:00:00 - [173]
 

Very very nice project Paladin.

Since I suppose the 'model' / 'data' is kept separate from the 'view', there could be a number of ways to exploit the data graphically to make interesting maps, including in 3rd party programs like Flash (especially if you associate all the actual star data exported statically by CCP, which define 3D-position and connections/jumps). Associating other bits of data (most of it static), you could expand on this and create an EvE Atlas (political, economical, astronomical, etc.) by applying different data views to the same map.

I think I have an idea how you collect sov data, too - and it might explain how / why the map is not as current as most would like. Wink

Pity CCP doesn't provide a data-feed (wouldn't have to be live, cached at regular time intervals would work) with all the relevant galactic info, but maybe with projects like this coming out they will consider doing it, who knows? Cool

Anyways, great job again, mate.

Slayton Ford
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:50:00 - [174]
 

This map is really nice.

Something to think about though is a exception list for regions so the infulence wont carry over on it. Think Venal or Jove space for example.

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.03.06 07:56:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Razor Jaxx
I think I have an idea how you collect sov data, too - and it might explain how / why the map is not as current as most would like. Wink


Out of MachoNet?

Raxxar
Gallente
Arioh Private Corp
Fixed Realms
Posted - 2007.03.06 08:29:00 - [176]
 

Where is topic name?

El Berto
Caldari
Free Corp
Liberty Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.06 10:14:00 - [177]
 

Regardless of the scalars of influence that are being discussed, I think this is quite a sexy idea as long as you don't view it as some definitive version of the eve cluster.

Well done

El.

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.03.06 10:26:00 - [178]
 

I like the recent improvements, looks even better now. I do like the suggestion of having a 'minimum bubble' around any alliance that owns an outpost or station to show their presense. I suppose it would require giving outpost values a 'knockout' range where they overawe any other influence values surrounding them.

This map is progressing nicely, and considering how it is based on very different input as well as the information it gives in return, I vote for a sticky (based on Paladin Vent sticking around in the future to update it). Well deserved imo.

Vile rat
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.03.06 10:45:00 - [179]
 

I absolutely adore this map. It's very crisp and concise and since it's automated it's hard to argue with the results too much.

Barbarellas Daughter
Gallente
Lonely Barbarella
Posted - 2007.03.06 13:11:00 - [180]
 

omg, its just awesome!


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