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blankseplocked Dear ignorant, jealous noobs (5 people will be T2 producers soon!)
 
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Rulkez
Tribal Core
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:40:00 - [31]
 

so the op got a crappy t2 bpo and felt the need to whine in 2 crappy threads

boohoo

Anna Grahm
Caldari
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:42:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Mortania
Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 07:11:39
Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 06:12:24
Since all t2 bpos are isk printing machines, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to make free* copies of my T2 Small EMP Smartbomb BPO that we own and give it to you.

All you have to do is EVE-Mail me with your request for a free* 10-run BPC and I will make a copy at my earliest convenience and get a contract to you. In return, you must deliver unto me 2 of the 10 you make within 1 week of when I place the contract up for you. All of the other lavish billions of ISK is yours to keep and spend as you wish.

If you don't/can't deliver in time, I will post a log of shame of all of the ignorant, jealous noobs for all the world to see.

Here it is, your piece of the pie of the wonderful world of T2 production and billions making, just an EVE-Mail and your production capabilities away.

TICK-TOCK!

2.5 horus in: so far, STILL no takers. Hmm. But wait, free untold billions and no takers. Something doesn't add up here.


You silly newbie. If you demand something in return it isn't free.Laughing

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:45:00 - [33]
 

Dear peopleses. I'm such a douchenugget I'm going to blah blah blah about how my godawful garbage example represents every other example regardless of the glaring differences.

Hurf durf!

Azerrad InExile
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:45:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 02/03/2007 07:45:18
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 02/03/2007 07:43:40
Originally by: Mortania
People effectively are.


Actually I think people are arguing more in the favor of T2 BPCs in place of the BPOs. That way it spreads out the opportunity to compete in the T2 market to more people. At the moment, no one is overly concerned about someone having a 10-run BPC of something because it eventually runs out (and if the pure BPC system was implemented would presumably change hands). Whether such a system would result in a better game I'm not sure, but its worth considering.

Prices may have dropped in the last 6 months, but the last 6 months have also seen the release of a new set of T2 BPOs increasing supply, new ships competing with existing T2 ships and the (poorly done imho) implementation of invention. However, even with all of this, T2 prices are still arguably too high.

As far as arguments of Haves vs. Havenots, it is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION. Whether a specific person has or does not have a T2 BPO has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the argument that they put forth (assuming of course that they actually put forth a real argument and not mindlessly cry "Nerf!").

As to my personal thoughts on the matter, I would have to say that commonly used T2 module/ship prices need to be lowered and the best way to do that would be to introduce real competition to the T2 market. At the moment, demand outstrips supply for commonly used modules leading to a situation where T2 producers have no incentive to compete with each other in any meaningful way. If the system was changed so that enough people were allowed to enter areas of their choosing (i.e. if demand warrants the time/isk startup costs), be it through invention, NPC sold BPOs, etc. prices would most likely fall to more reasonable levels.

Why should it be done? Personally the game is becoming too much of a grind with high T2 prices. As it stands now, you realistically need at least some T2 components to compete on an even level (e.g. T2 guns, T2 tank, etc). While T1 can be useful, the game is stacked too much in favor of T2 to not use it, and with high T2 prices I personally have gotten to the point where its not worth the ISK grind to justify their purchase. My solution: basically stop playing. If T2 was less of a grind to afford, or T1 was more competitive with T2 I'd probably still be playing, but for the moment it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

However it is done, T2 prices need to come down before I seriously consider getting back into this game. Until then I'll just be watching skills countdown until my subscription runs out.


Shameless Avenger
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:47:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania

... The price of this item is at a lower % profit than most t1 items and still doesn't sell....



So your T2 BPO is crappy? If so, why the whine?


I explain that in the very post you quoted.


So your explanation is that you want to retain your BPO because you earn it?

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:50:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania

... The price of this item is at a lower % profit than most t1 items and still doesn't sell....



So your T2 BPO is crappy? If so, why the whine?


I explain that in the very post you quoted.


So your explanation is that you want to retain your BPO because you earn it?


If that's how you want to take it, I won't convince you otherwise.

Shameless Avenger
Posted - 2007.03.02 07:57:00 - [37]
 

I love it when people are vague.

If you want to increase demmand, lets make all T2 BPOs dissapear and make T2 available from NPC corps. I have never seen a shortage of Control Towers or Secure Cans.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:05:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 08:05:10
Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 08:04:03
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
I love it when people are vague.



No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.

Move along, citizen.

Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:10:00 - [39]
 

Mortania, there is something in this entire dicussion thread so far that you have so far managed to avoid mentioning except obliquely, and that is the market to sell the bpc's made from the bpo's. Now, granted there are some t2 bpo's that aren't worth the hassle, but then the same can be said of some t1 bpo's. Contrary to what your trying to imply with this thread, bpo's are much more the money maker generally than bpc's simply due to the ability to copy them and sell those copies without effecting the original. A quick glance at the contract system shows what sort of prices 10 run t2 bpc's go for and that's not exactly the price range of a newbie. Now I'm hardly a newbie, and as it happens my industry skills are quite reasonable, but my standings suck due to lack of mission running so mineral costs are high for me to build stuff and some of my skills need some level 5's to really make the most of a bpc/o. Now if I had a bpo those skills would be level'd up so as to make the most of same, a 10 run bpc isn't worth the extra hassle of interrupting my current skill plan, not to mention that those skills take more than a week.

Your challenge is flawed, but the arguement your trying to make that *some* t2 bpo's are next to useless is noted and accepted. Still doesn't mitigate the fact that the concept of t2 bpo's is in itself flawed and should be/is being totally overhauled and that bpo's in generally should gain a time limit on them to prevent unfair competition down the line. You got the thing for lp's, so... maybe they should allow agents to buy back the bpo's at the original lp cost + research time. After some time the remaining bpo's in game go *poof*. Dunno about you, but that sounds fair to me.

Zaqar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:13:00 - [40]
 

Most arrogant, pointless and condescending thread of the week.

OP, I'd edit out your posts before you cause your corp further embarrasment.

Shameless Avenger
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:19:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Mortania

No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.



Well, calling people "ignorant" right on the subject line doesn't really help convincing anyone. "Ad hominem"

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:19:00 - [42]
 

Yes, as has been said in this thread already, the OP is making a straw man argument.

Of course, a Small EMP Smartbomb II BPO is NOT an ISK-printing machine. Nobody is arguing it is. And, no, this BPO does not make it worth investing into logistics and skills required.

This BPO is not and ISK-printing machine because nobody is using that module. Duh. I doubt you can make any money with it al all.

However, any BPO for a widely-used module or item IS an ISK-printing machine. Here are two very, very concrete examples for you.

A friend of mine was considering a purchase of a 200mm Railgun II BPO. The BPO in question was unresearched, with a waste factor of 0.1 and PE 0. The owner of the BPO has quoted the following figures: ~1 million of pure profit per one railgun produced; 20 railguns per day produced; approximately 600 million monthly profit. The profit numbers he has quoted were for bulk sale to a T2 reseller. The owner has also stated that he obtains all the necessary components by simply placing a system-wide buy order for them. To put it another way, it is a GUARANTEED 600 million in monthly profit. Without even researching the darn thing. Without much logistics involved at all. With no risk. While you are afk.

Now let's look at Hammerhead II. The numbers I am going to cite came up in the Invention discussion thread right before Kali has come out. According to the lucky Hammerhead II BPO owner, it takes a whopping 100K ISK in materials + a Hammerhead I to make a Hammerhead II. Yes, you heard me right. Material cost for it is 120K. All of us know how much Hammerhead IIs cost on the market right now. 2.5 million and up. I also want to preempt a common argument that comes up in the discussions such as this, namely "it is the fault of the resellers". No, it is not. I resell Hammerhead IIs with my other character. I have very good relationship with the producer. My bulk cost for batches of 500 and up is 1.95 million. I buy these drones in gigantic batches, thus guaranteeing the producer's income (and mine too). I will leave it to the reader to calculate the profit a Hammerhead II BPO brings. Suffice it to say that when one was sold recently, it went for 25 billion or even more. Do YOU want a guaranteed income of 2.5 billion a month while you are afk?

As one can notice, the price of Hammerhead IIs has also increased dramatically over the last year and a half. I want to preempt another common "argument" here, the one about the increased demand for Hammerhead IIs. Here's how it goes. There are more players now, there are few Hammerhead IIs, thus the price has increased. Because more people are competing for them Hammerheads. Well, it ain't so. First of all, the price of a Hammerhead II has increased a whopping 6-fold over the last 18 months. The population of EVE has NOT grown 6-fold during the same period. The number of people with sufficient skills to use Hammerhead IIs has NOT gone up 6-fold (look at the recent SP statistics posted by Tuxford, and compare it to the data from 18 month ago - you will see what I mean). Second, if this argument was correct, and there was a genuine shortage of Hammerhead IIs, the average volume of the transactions with Hammerheads would have gone UP, or stayed the SAME with the corresponding increase in price. However, examination of the historical market data reveals an opposite trend: the average volume of transactions has gone down with the increase in price. Furthermore, there are now MORE single bulk sales of 100-200 drones, and less small purchases of 1-20 drones than there were 18 months ago.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:21:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania

No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.



Well, calling people "ignorant" right on the subject line doesn't really help convincing anyone. "Ad hominem"


Ignorance is often confused with stupidity. Though closely related (like the separate but closely related arguements in my multiple threads), aren't the same. Ignorant

Additionally, I signalled out no person. People are welcome to accept the appellation as they see fit.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:33:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 08:30:06
Originally by: Quilan Ziller

well reasoned points



How would removal of these T2 BPOs help to reduce these figures?

To claim that T2 production takes no effort has often been put forth, but it is false. There is initial skill investment, cost of production, cost of labs/factories, cost of research, not too mention that MOST people have purchased their BPOs on the open market and are still paying them off, not having won them through the lottery. I forgot the often overlooked logisitcs cost. This one ain't cheap.

Removing BPOs does nothing but punish those people who worked to get their BPOs, research them, and operate them (it is not zero work). The answer is to increase the supply of T2 producable items. More BPOs, I'm in favor of. More BPCs through lotteries, yup. More BPCs as rewards for missioning, yep. Ratting drops of BPCs, yet. BPCs and BPOs through invention, yep! Increase the supply. Don't decrease it.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:37:00 - [45]
 

Which brings me to the REAL factors that drive the price up.

a. Pure, unadulterated GREED on the part of BPO owners
b. The fact that if you have a Hammerhead II BPO, it makes more sense to you as a game player to produce fewer drones, thus wasting less of your time on this boring activity. For example, it might make more sense for you to make and sell 300 drones a month, reaping in 564 million in profit, than it is to make 900 drones a month, reaping in 1.26 billion in profit. Because even with lesser profit you can afford anything you can look at. And because making more drones is 3 times the trouble. No, EVE economics does not work like RL economics, because this drone-producing business is not a real business. It has no operating costs, and no competition. Every ISK of the owner's income is disposable. And there is absolutely no risk involved.

Now don't you dare to insult everyone's intelligence and claim that the current T2 BPO owners (I am talking about the owners of useful BPOs here - not the OP's T2 smartie) somehow "deserve" these ISK printers. It is a well known fact that an alt character with a month of training or less can bake items from the print. It is a well known fact that the issue of "complicated T2 logistics" is a myth. With the profits some of these prints bring, the cost of the raw materials is largely irrelevant. It is a well known fact that the process of gathering RPs does not involve much player interaction, is purely chance based, and has been compromised on at least one occasion. It is a well known fact that the quality of a BPO one gets (if any) does not correlate with the amount of effort invested.

Why do those few people get this kind of unfair advantage over everyone else? Beats me.

The fact that some people sometimes choose to sell their ISK printers for a sum equal to one year's profit does NOT make T2 BPOs somehow "OK" from the point of game mechanics. Invention in its present state cannot be considered seriously as a way to compete with the "chosen few". Changes are needed.

As a matter of fact, I really like the recent proposal to turn all the current BPOs into multiple run BPCs, but allow people to work with BPCs add runs to them. This change would instantly allow inventors to compete with the current BPO owners.

But whatever the changes, T2 BPOs in their current shape and state should go.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:41:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Quilan Ziller
words.


You took her straw man and totally pwned it with your t2 stfu stick.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:44:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Quilan Ziller

As a matter of fact, I really like the recent proposal to turn all the current BPOs into multiple run BPCs, but allow people to work with BPCs add runs to them. This change would instantly allow inventors to compete with the current BPO owners.



I was with you all the way 'til here. How does turning the current BPOs solve the situation? It would certainly punish the majority of T2 BPO owners who purchased their BPOs.

The answer is to make invetion and other ways of gaining T2 production on equal footing to current BPOs. The answer doesn't need to be tearing people down, it can be about building people up.

Removing the current T2 BPOs and doing nothing with invention as it stands now would see a 10x increase in T2 pricing (i'm exaggerating, barely). Why would any current BPC holder do anything to reduce their now significantly reduced investment by one more run? Invention would become worth it without change because pricing on T2 items would shoot up to where it was worth it without change.

PS: T2 production really does take logistical effort. Especially if you choose to run it from stem to stern.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:45:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Frug
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
words.


You took her straw man and totally pwned it with your t2 stfu stick.


More constructive that most of your other posts.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:52:00 - [49]
 

Quote:
How does turning the current BPOs [into BPCs] solve the situation?


You love rhetorical questions. Tell me that was a rhetorical question.

Tell me everything you've said in this and other topics are all clever parody to make the opposite point as the one stated.

Please. I will love you.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:53:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Mortania
[To claim that T2 production takes no effort has often been put forth, but it is false. There is initial skill investment, cost of production, cost of labs/factories, cost of research, not too mention that MOST people have purchased their BPOs on the open market and are still paying them off, not having won them through the lottery. I forgot the often overlooked logisitcs cost. This one ain't cheap.

Removing BPOs does nothing but punish those people who worked to get their BPOs, research them, and operate them (it is not zero work). The answer is to increase the supply of T2 producable items. More BPOs, I'm in favor of. More BPCs through lotteries, yup. More BPCs as rewards for missioning, yep. Ratting drops of BPCs, yet. BPCs and BPOs through invention, yep! Increase the supply. Don't decrease it.


Skills?
A month of training your alt. If that much. That is your skill investment.

Materials cost?
See my previous post about the 200mm railgun. Unresearched. The owner specifically stated that it does not make ANY difference because the material cost is so low and margin is so high. Ditto for Hammer IIs. Ditto for HACs. If you sell a Vaga for 200+ mil, do you actually care if you spend 30 mil on raw materials, or if you spend 60? The correct answer is that you don't care. You just buy in-station.

People buying BPOs?
Bah. Should I feel sorry for them now? I know people who have bought single units of Zydrine for 300 million. I know people who have bought Faction frigs for 120 mil. It was their choice. Game mechanics does not mandate a 25 billion cost of a Hammerhead II BPO. However, the same game mechanics works in such a way that a Hammerhead II BPO brings in an ungodly amount of ISK that the owner does not really deserve.
Or let's look at this from another angle. Let's say we both own Hammerhead II BPOs. You have bought one for 25 billion, and your logic dictates you get to keep yours. I have got my BPO for free by scamming someone. Or I have won mine in the lottery and keeping it. You have invested 25 billion in yours. I have got mine for free, with no effort. Now tell me... How is your BPO different from mine? Should we both get to keep them? Should my BPO be converted to a ME -10 3-run BPC? Huh?

I am aginst the ISK-printer concept. A BPO should not be forever. It should require some serious effort to operate day-to-day (setting up buy orders with an alt does not count). And no print should bring in 5000% profit as it is now. The best T1 BPOs can bring in 25% margin over the mineral cost - if enough is invested in research and production. If the best T2 prints had 50%, heck, 100% margin on them - I would be happy.

But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:56:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Quilan Ziller

But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.


It is purely a supply issue. If T2 Hammerhead BPOs were like T1 Hammerheads and anyone could purchase them, then this much profit wouldn't be generated. Increase the supply. Don't break the contract of permenance that CCP has created with their long term members.

Topaz Skydiver
Minmatar
Narrative Freshfood
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:57:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 02/03/2007 09:04:15
What the newbies don't get:

1) At some point inventors will be able to compete against BPO holders, because the BPO holder is limited to his BPO and the slow production times, while nothing stops the inventor from switching to the most profitable items and increasing their production output. This will drive the prices down.
I already think about selling my tech-2 BPO, although the item has a profit margin of 1000% and I can sell the whole production each week, because the production time is too slow to become rich with it.

2) Tech-2 invention won't be for newbies. Your chances with the lottery are probably better as a solo playing newbie. It takes a big amounts of isk, time, teamwork and skilled characters to get into invention. I've already put hundreds of millions into it without inventing anything so far. (skills, decryptors, BPOs, errected a pos for me-research ...)

3) Tech-2 production isn't for everyone anyway. So don't expect CCP ever to seed the BPOs on the market, at least not before tech-3 is out. Laughing

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2007.03.02 08:59:00 - [53]
 

The point of the OP is that CCP should seed BPO's intelegently rather than hurt existing breadline t2 bpos buy seeding everything.

We live in a game, where certain t1 ammo BPO's makes more isk/day than the counterpart t2 bpo. Yet increasing the seeding of less desirable t2 bpo's results in more compititon and thus less demand hence less profits.

If I had the Spudomain t2 Crystal BPO, I would have to pay people to take those crystals off me. And there are huge numbers of t2 bpo's that are equally useless. If something is not a common PvP module, or is not a "uber miner" module, then the chances are that the t2bpo owner will make a loss if anything.

It would not surprise me if Microwave S BPO makes more isk/day than his current bpo.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:08:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Mortania
I was with you all the way 'til here. How does turning the current BPOs solve the situation?.


Easy.

Current BPO owners will get BPCs. They will be able to add runs to those BPCs - at the cost of the BPC not being in production all the time.

Inventors will get BPCs. They will be able to add runs to those BPCs - at the cost of the BPC not being in production all the time.

See?

If this is done, Invention actually becomes competitive.

Right now, I am not going to bother with "inventing" most modules, or even most ships. Why? Producing a limited run, inefficient BPC through Invention will typically cost me more just in Datacores than buying the BPC from a BPO owner. In addition, I will have to invest about 200 million in a racial module Data Interface, or 750 million in a racial ship Data Interface. And about 100 million in a racial Encryption skillbook. As a result, Invention has only a niche application as it is. It has had ZERO impact on the T2 market.

Now, if the BPC I have got from Invention could be improved by adding runs to it, and doing research on it, I would start doing Invention in a heartbeat. So would a lot of industrialists. This will create MORE BPs, and finally make all the BP owners compete. It will also eliminate the "eternal ISK printer" issue, since every BP owner will have to work on their BP in order to replenish the runs.

As for "obscure" modules - market is your friend here. Yes, some people DO want an EMP Smartbomb II. If too few of these will be produced, price will go up - until they will become profitable. And don't forget - everyone will be able to get into Invention, so they could make some themselves too!

The only problem I see with this kind of BPC-only scheme are the current non-invented BPCs. It is not too much of an issue, though...

Sash Windu
Gallente
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:10:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron
The point of the OP is that CCP should seed BPO's intelegently

That would be instead of a dev giving t2 BPOs to his pet alliance. Shut up cheater, your words on the subject of t2 BPOs are not wanted, welcome or needed.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:21:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Mortania on 02/03/2007 09:18:10
Originally by: Quilan Ziller

Easy....



OR!!!

Make invention nearly as good as BPO (and better in some ways).
Create many different ways for people to gain T2 BPCs and BPOs.
Let those who like to Rat get T2 through ratting (rare drops).
Let those who like to Produce/Build get T2 through invention/exploration.
Let those who like to Mission run get T2 through lotteries (RP purchases of BPCs or lottries of BPOs (like now!)).
Let those who like to Pirate get T2 through blowing up/ransoming those above.
Let those who like to PvP get T2 from the market.

Let's create gameplay and access for everyone. The lottery and existing BPOs are NOT the problem. The problem is that they only provide one access point (two if you argue purchase on the resale market as one), for T2 production. Make MORE ways.

Or, you know, clutch and tear at each other like crabs in a bucket and let no one out of the mire.

Malakhan
Gallente
Phoenix Wing
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:22:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Sash Windu
Originally by: Lord WarATron
The point of the OP is that CCP should seed BPO's intelegently

That would be instead of a dev giving t2 BPOs to his pet alliance. Shut up cheater, your words on the subject of t2 BPOs are not wanted, welcome or needed.


Broken record 4tl... Rolling Eyes

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:23:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron
The point of the OP is that CCP should seed BPO's intelegently rather than hurt existing breadline t2 bpos buy seeding everything.

We live in a game, where certain t1 ammo BPO's makes more isk/day than the counterpart t2 bpo. Yet increasing the seeding of less desirable t2 bpo's results in more compititon and thus less demand hence less profits.

If I had the Spudomain t2 Crystal BPO, I would have to pay people to take those crystals off me. And there are huge numbers of t2 bpo's that are equally useless. If something is not a common PvP module, or is not a "uber miner" module, then the chances are that the t2bpo owner will make a loss if anything.

It would not surprise me if Microwave S BPO makes more isk/day than his current bpo.


Yes, everyone understands the straw-man argument of the OP. Sure.

But as far as most "anti-BPO whiners" (me included) are concerned, when we say "T2 BPOs", we DO mean "common PvP module BPO" or "Ishkur BPO". Yes, Spodumain Mining Crystal II BPO is absolutely irrelevant. As a matter of fact, its owner (who is NOT making any profit from it) would not really care if his BP is converted to a BPC.

What we DO want is the elimination of perpetual ISK-printing machines that the GOOD T2 BPOs are.
Either these BPOs need to be nerfed (made into mutable or immutable BPCs), OR Invention needs to be buffed in order to be very, very competitive with BPOs.
What I mean by "buffed" is that I should be able to reliably Invent a Tech II BPC for, say, 10x-20x times the cost of the corresponding Tech I BPC. Yes, I am talking 5 million in Datacores and Decryptors and 2-3 days research time for a single run, ME 10 Ishtar BPC.

Now, either one of those two solutions is a significant nerf to "good" T2 BPO owners' income.

But please do tell me how this is somehow bad for the game, or unfair towards the current BPO owners.

I am listening.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:27:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Mortania

Make invention nearly as good as BPO (and better in some ways).
Create many different ways for people to gain T2 BPCs and BPOs.
Let those who like to Rat get T2 through ratting (rare drops).
Let those who like to Produce/Build get T2 through invention/exploration.
Let those who like to Mission run get T2 through lotteries (RP purchases of BPCs or lottries of BPOs (like now!)).
Let those who like to Pirate get T2 through blowing up/ransoming those above.
Let those who like to PvP get T2 from the market.

Let's create gameplay and access for everyone. The lottery and existing BPOs are NOT the problem. The problem is that they only provide one access point (two if you argue purchase on the resale market as one), for T2 production. Make MORE ways.



Completely agreed! (See my post just above too)

Topaz Skydiver
Minmatar
Narrative Freshfood
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:27:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 02/03/2007 09:27:29
Invention needs to be tweeked, but it's not about building your own tech-2 modules for personal use ! It's supposed to make those rich, who go through all the hassle, time investment, isk investment and logistic work to get competitive.

I'm noticing that I can't get easy into it from one day to another and that's 'good', because I don't want to compete with 10.000 inventors in the end, so that t2 production will be as flooded with producers as tech-1 production is.

Actually, if it feels like wasting isk and time for a few weeks it's a good sign. I think the interfaces are already too cheap. Looks like the drop-rate is way too high. Invention is for those, who want to work their ass of to get into it and not for the random mission runner, who wants to produce a bit tech-2 like he produces his own ammo.

If invention means real hard work in the beginning and reaping the rewards later with less effort, then it's what I'm looking for.


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