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Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.01 08:24:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Bienurdau Hywoaf on 01/03/2007 17:00:02
Edited by: Bienurdau Hywoaf on 01/03/2007 09:36:46
This is a Tier 3 Destroyer Idea, still tech I.

This is a Destroyer that is meant to act against Cruisers and Battlecruisers rather than as an anti frigate platform.

Hi Slots: 4
Med Slots: 1
Low Slots: 4

Skill Bonuses:
+5% Damage to Medium Energy Weapon Turrets per Destroyer Level.
+10% Optimal Range for Medium Energy Weapon Turrets per Destroyer Level.

4 Turret Hardpoints
0 Launcher Hardpoint.

It would have enough CPU, PG and Cap to enable a pilot to mount 4 Medium Energy Turrets (Levels in Engineering and Electronics might be needed to get a full 4 mediums, espicially tech II versions)

No Drone Bay
100 cubic Meters of Cargo Space


This is a rough idea :) Whatcha think?

EDIT: Reduced High Slots more.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2007.03.01 09:26:00 - [2]
 

so basically you want a tier 1 or 2 cruiser with a few slots already used for agility/speed modules? That doesn't require cruiser skills?

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.01 09:40:00 - [3]
 

Actually it would have fewer shields, armor and structure than a cruiser :).

I suppose we could give it even fewer high slots. Perhaps just giving it the 4 turret hardpoints and no extra high slots.

I'm working on some different destroyer ideas, the Caldari and Minmatar ones are Minelayers, and I'm working on some Minesweeper (Amarr/Gallante) and some Salvaging ones :)

It just seem silly to me to have all these different ship types and then just have 1 ship tied to the skill.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2007.03.01 09:55:00 - [4]
 

My point is still: why would anyone use your tier 3 destroyer - it no longer has any advantage over smaller ships (frigates) and It'll be much more fragile and just as slow as bigger ships (cruisers). it's even worse than a tier 1 cruiser with those specs.
That amarr ship except for perhaps different bonus is a weak cruiser tanking like a frigate... and then it has NO role to perform.

If I would make a new destroyer I would perhaps focus on tanking like a cruiser while perhaps only having 5-6 hi-slots... Then it is still intended to fight frigates while being able to take at least a small amount of punishing. Which is the oposite role of the tier 1 destroyer slaughtering frigates but tanks like a 5k npc.

THEN you have a role that could make the varrant a new ship and that people might actually use. (new players would be able to cross over more easily to lv2 missions and people didn't need to have cruisers with medium bonus using small guns)

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.01 10:42:00 - [5]
 

By increasing the tank as you suggest aren't you making it possible it could be better than a cruiser?

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2007.03.01 11:18:00 - [6]
 

Yes - Perhaps better than a cruiser against frigates. But the powergrid and cpu will still be limited so it can only fit small guns/modules (except for perhaps a single medium module or two) like battlecruisers is meant to use medium items...

When I say more tank I'm saying more slots and more tanking equipment but not bigger tanking equipment. with 6 small guns it will do less damage against large ships like cruisers than a cruiser with 4-6 medium weapons and similar bonus'

Pinky

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.03.01 11:59:00 - [7]
 

This niche is already filled , cruisers are anti-cruisers (or battlecruisers , whatever) so what you suggest is just a tier 0 cruiser (fighting variant of the mining cruisers)

A more interesting suggestion was to give a powergrid/CPU and tracking bonus for large guns , with just 2-3 hardpoints. Battleships have a hard time hitting destroyers so it would take a small gang to down even the strongest ones. Of course , frigates could dispatch them quickly.

Tony Benn
Dawn of War
Posted - 2007.03.01 13:45:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Tony Benn on 01/03/2007 14:18:13
Edited by: Tony Benn on 01/03/2007 13:52:43
I think perhaps the OP is slightly confused as to tier 2 and tech 2?
There are currently no tier 2 destroyers (just as there are no tech 2 battleships, but there are three tiers) in the game, and so this would be a tier 2 ship and not tier 3 if the idea goes ahead (call me pedantic if you must!). Maybe I'm wrong; maybe tech 2 is also considered tier 2...

Personally, I would favour a slightly more balanced approach to such a ship - a destroyer with a bonus to cruiser-class weaponry is a very nice idea, but with that setup it would be overpowered in my opinion. As it's also intended as an anti-cruiser platform, some tackling capability would be required.

I would go for this configuration:

Amaar:
3 High (Turret Hardpoints)
2 Mid
5 Low
180 CPU
80 Power Grid
800 Structure
1000 Armor
600 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for medium energy turrets per level
5% Bonus to armour resistance per level

Caldari:
3 High (Missile Hardpoints)
5 Mid
2 Low
220 CPU
60 Power Grid
800 Structure
600 Armor
1000 Shield
12.5% reduction in power grid use for heavy missile and heavy assault missile launchers per level
5% bonus to shield resistance per level

Gallente:
4 High (4 Turret Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)
3 Mid
3 Low
190 CPU
70 Power Grid
800 Structure
800 Armor
800 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for Medium Hybrid turrets per level
5% to medium hybrid turret damage per level

Minmatar:
4 High (4 Turret Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)
3 Mid
3 Low
190 CPU
80 Power Grid
800 Structure
800 Armor
800 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for medium projectile turrets per level
5% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level

Edited to balance ships at 2400 total hitpoints.

Second edit to request that the thread be renamed simply "Heavy Destroyers" - you wouldn't be giving one race the advantage of an extra ship class after all!

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.01 17:05:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Stakhanov
This niche is already filled , cruisers are anti-cruisers (or battlecruisers , whatever) so what you suggest is just a tier 0 cruiser (fighting variant of the mining cruisers)

A more interesting suggestion was to give a powergrid/CPU and tracking bonus for large guns , with just 2-3 hardpoints. Battleships have a hard time hitting destroyers so it would take a small gang to down even the strongest ones. Of course , frigates could dispatch them quickly.


That's an interesting idea :).....

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.01 17:07:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Tony Benn
Edited by: Tony Benn on 01/03/2007 14:18:13
Edited by: Tony Benn on 01/03/2007 13:52:43
I think perhaps the OP is slightly confused as to tier 2 and tech 2?
There are currently no tier 2 destroyers (just as there are no tech 2 battleships, but there are three tiers) in the game, and so this would be a tier 2 ship and not tier 3 if the idea goes ahead (call me pedantic if you must!). Maybe I'm wrong; maybe tech 2 is also considered tier 2...

Personally, I would favour a slightly more balanced approach to such a ship - a destroyer with a bonus to cruiser-class weaponry is a very nice idea, but with that setup it would be overpowered in my opinion. As it's also intended as an anti-cruiser platform, some tackling capability would be required.

I would go for this configuration:

Amaar:
3 High (Turret Hardpoints)
2 Mid
5 Low
180 CPU
80 Power Grid
800 Structure
1000 Armor
600 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for medium energy turrets per level
5% Bonus to armour resistance per level

Caldari:
3 High (Missile Hardpoints)
5 Mid
2 Low
220 CPU
60 Power Grid
800 Structure
600 Armor
1000 Shield
12.5% reduction in power grid use for heavy missile and heavy assault missile launchers per level
5% bonus to shield resistance per level

Gallente:
4 High (4 Turret Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)
3 Mid
3 Low
190 CPU
70 Power Grid
800 Structure
800 Armor
800 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for Medium Hybrid turrets per level
5% to medium hybrid turret damage per level

Minmatar:
4 High (4 Turret Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)
3 Mid
3 Low
190 CPU
80 Power Grid
800 Structure
800 Armor
800 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for medium projectile turrets per level
5% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level

Edited to balance ships at 2400 total hitpoints.

Second edit to request that the thread be renamed simply "Heavy Destroyers" - you wouldn't be giving one race the advantage of an extra ship class after all!


By tier 3 I was meaning that it would take Destroyers Level 3 to get access to the ship :). I"m sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean it as a new ship skill :).

I like your suggestions here :), I was working on some other ideas like my Gallante Light Drone Carrier :).

Your idea here is much more balanced than my original one :)

I like this a lot :)

Tony Benn
Dawn of War
Posted - 2007.03.15 11:49:00 - [11]
 

Quote:
Amaar:
3 High (Turret Hardpoints)
2 Mid
5 Low
180 CPU
80 Power Grid
800 Structure
1000 Armor
600 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for medium energy turrets per level
5% Bonus to armour resistance per level

Caldari:
3 High (Missile Hardpoints)
5 Mid
2 Low
220 CPU
60 Power Grid
800 Structure
600 Armor
1000 Shield
12.5% reduction in power grid use for heavy missile and heavy assault missile launchers per level
5% bonus to shield resistance per level

Gallente:
4 High (4 Turret Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)
3 Mid
3 Low
190 CPU
70 Power Grid
800 Structure
800 Armor
800 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for Medium Hybrid turrets per level
5% to medium hybrid turret damage per level

Minmatar:
4 High (4 Turret Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)
3 Mid
3 Low
190 CPU
80 Power Grid
800 Structure
800 Armor
800 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for medium projectile turrets per level
5% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level


Noone else has anything to say here?
I feel the destroyer is an underutilised category. After level 1 the next upgrade possible is the Interdictor at level 5 - a bit of a reach compared to every other ship class.

Thoughts, flames - all comments appreciated

Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2007.03.15 19:42:00 - [12]
 

So you want a Light Cruiser.

Otto Maharg
Gallente
Black Serpent Technologies
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:29:00 - [13]
 

Destroyers now are pretty uch horrible for anything but mission running. They have all the weaknesses of both cruisers and frigates, and none of the advantages. Bah.

Ariya Arnaud
Posted - 2007.03.15 22:21:00 - [14]
 

I wouldn't use a destroyer for missions. It's too easily shot down. That said...

Destroyers are quite terrifying in PvP. They are harder than hell to use, but used correctly, they are downright scary. The sheer damage output, and the range at which they can deliver, is staggering. It does however require remote repairing and ecm to pull off.

While good anti-frigate platforms, in close-knit teams, they are more than capable of providing bulk damage to take down battleships. Seen it done - with frightening efficiency.

A destroyer is a piece of junk alone though. They need friends.

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2007.03.16 00:57:00 - [15]
 

I don't understand the point of this.

I could see if you wanted an anti-inty screen on a cruiser platform, which they really ought to be anyway, but this makes no sense.

Most cruiser turrets need more falloff anyway. It's silly to develop the cruiser abilities around the hard limits of nos, webs and scramblers when they should really be developed in relation to the engagement possibilities of other ship classes.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.03.16 02:42:00 - [16]
 

I love the concept of destroyers so any new destroyer no matter what it is would be welcomes with open arms, ofcourse that said... A destroyer with fewer high slots but enough grid and cpu to fit a cruiser tank plus each race having a tank bonus would be very sweet. Now heres a question, do we give these new tier desties a extra bonus like the tier 1's? Maybe -25% to optimal range and +50% to tracking? would be a mean anti-inty ac boat.

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2007.03.16 02:54:00 - [17]
 

Again, why?

You don't need a tracking bonus to hit cepters with reduced range.

If they are in web range, you can hit them with 250mm arties with the current destroyer bonuses with or without mwd activated.

If you have a tank that is not roughly parallel to that of ceptors, they will just fly away and never engage you. Pwn buttons do not work. They just cause safespotting.

And then a T1 cruiser or bs will come along and bbq you subsequent to accomplishing nothing.

If anything, we need destroyers with webber range bonuses and +1 mids, or higher alphas, or higher dps, or an antithesis to a new mechanic. Unless it's unusual, it's pointless.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.03.16 04:47:00 - [18]
 

Heres the problem, if you decide to make a destroyer an ewar boat you may aswell use a cruiser or a frigate, honestly theres no neiche for a ewar destroyer, however a different kind of anti frigate destroyer still with limmited med and low slots and a good number of high slots that gets bonuses to its tank is a neiche, a different approach to the frig killing role.

Tulisin Dragonflame
Posted - 2007.03.16 04:48:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 16/03/2007 04:49:04
Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 16/03/2007 04:45:36
Originally by: Tony Benn
Quote:
Amaar:
3 High (Turret Hardpoints)
2 Mid
5 Low
180 CPU
80 Power Grid
800 Structure
1000 Armor
600 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for medium energy turrets per level
5% Bonus to armour resistance per level

Caldari:
3 High (Missile Hardpoints)
5 Mid
2 Low
220 CPU
60 Power Grid
800 Structure
600 Armor
1000 Shield
12.5% reduction in power grid use for heavy missile and heavy assault missile launchers per level
5% bonus to shield resistance per level

Gallente:
4 High (4 Turret Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)
3 Mid
3 Low
190 CPU
70 Power Grid
800 Structure
800 Armor
800 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for Medium Hybrid turrets per level
5% to medium hybrid turret damage per level

Minmatar:
4 High (4 Turret Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)
3 Mid
3 Low
190 CPU
80 Power Grid
800 Structure
800 Armor
800 Shield
17.5% reduction in power grid use for medium projectile turrets per level
5% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level


Noone else has anything to say here?
I feel the destroyer is an underutilised category. After level 1 the next upgrade possible is the Interdictor at level 5 - a bit of a reach compared to every other ship class.

Thoughts, flames - all comments appreciated


Gallente version needs a drone bay 5 more than anyone else (so, 5), 900 armor (between Minmatar and Amarr), 850 structure (to have the most), and 650 shields (to balance out to the same HP).

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.16 05:18:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Thor Xian
So you want a Light Cruiser.


I guess that's kinda what I was aiming at :).

I like everyone's comments :)

Be nice to have some more Destroyer ships in general :)

Revolution Rising
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2007.03.16 09:46:00 - [21]
 

I would say a big "yes" to this. It is a fleet combat vessel really, as destroyers are meant to be. The current one has very few realistic uses cept maybe doing the "when worlds collide" mission...

RR

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.03.16 11:24:00 - [22]
 

U already got frigates designed to pick on bigger targets.

Theyr named stealh bobmer and theyr buff is coming, just wait.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.03.16 12:56:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Nian Banks on 16/03/2007 12:56:33
Hang on a second, why only make a destroyer with cruiser weapons? Lets think bigger, Lets go with the stealth bomber idea and do something unique for the hell of it! I figure we could not only have a destroyer with a defensive bonus but also give it the ability to also fit medium weapons, with the tech 2 version having the ability to fit large turrets instead of medium.

Tier 3 Tech 1 Destroyer
High: 3, 3 turret slots 1 missile slot.
Medium: 1 to 4 \_ 5 total Medium and Low slots combined.
Low: 1 to 4 /
PG & CPU ?

Bonus/Level: ((+%? to shield or armor hitpoints) or (+%? to shield or armor resists) race specify), +%? to turret tracking.
Bonus: -%? CPU and -%? PG to MEDIUM turret (Race Specify).

Tier 3 Tech 2 Destroyer
High: 4, 3 turret slots 2 missile slot.
Medium: 1 to 4 \_ 6 total Medium and Low slots combined.
Low: 1 to 4 /
PG & CPU ?

Bonus/Level: ((+%? to shield or armor hitpoints) or (+%? to shield or armor resists) race specify), +%? to turret tracking.
Bonus: -%? CPU and -%? PG to LARGE turret (Race Specify).

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.03.16 13:12:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Valandril
U already got frigates designed to pick on bigger targets.

Theyr named stealh bobmer and theyr buff is coming, just wait.


Stealth bombers are working with cruise missiles, here it's all about destroyer gunboat style, some kind of small ship with BIG guns just like the bomber has BIG missiles.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.03.16 13:23:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Originally by: Valandril
U already got frigates designed to pick on bigger targets.

Theyr named stealh bobmer and theyr buff is coming, just wait.


Stealth bombers are working with cruise missiles, here it's all about destroyer gunboat style, some kind of small ship with BIG guns just like the bomber has BIG missiles.
So with insta damage ? Did u ever conisder how overpowered it will be ?
/me grabs 20 1mil ships, fit large guns on them and instapop any bs

Not funny...

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.03.16 15:12:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Originally by: Valandril
U already got frigates designed to pick on bigger targets.

Theyr named stealh bobmer and theyr buff is coming, just wait.


Stealth bombers are working with cruise missiles, here it's all about destroyer gunboat style, some kind of small ship with BIG guns just like the bomber has BIG missiles.
So with insta damage ? Did u ever conisder how overpowered it will be ?
/me grabs 20 1mil ships, fit large guns on them and instapop any bs

Not funny...


Hence you keep the mid and low slots to a minimum so as to not allow for an great tank and to reduce the chance of the ship having a heap of damage boosting mods then you have a reduced high slot compaired to the tier1 destroyers so that you can't have a full 8 gun rack of larges and then next you only give a medium turret fitting bonus for the tech 1 version and for tech 2 allow large turrets because as you say a few 1m isk destroyers shuldn't be able to insta pop a battleship, but if the destroyer was tech2 and worth 40 million then pft let it do battleships when in larger gangs. Also you ensure that at best you could fit two of the larger turrets without affecting your tank and other med/low slots choice too much. I mean its still a destroyer, it should have atleast a couple of small guns or missiles on it.

So where does that leave your arguement? Let me summarise.

1: 1m isk Desty = medium bonus for tech1 as to not insta pop bs's
2: Can't easily fit more than 2 medium guns on tech1 ship
3: Keep damage mods to a minimum with low low slots.
4: Ensure that Chuck Norris is on your battleship so that he can roundhouse kick any incoming destroyers.

Tyson Gallane
Caldari
THE SKiRMiSH
Posted - 2007.03.16 15:34:00 - [27]
 

Our Destroyers do seem closer to the idea of a Light Cruiser - with multiple light weapons for AA fire - in terms of role. I'd like to see a similar design of light craft, but with Cruiser scale weapons. They would be agile enough that BS and BC class would have some trouble hitting them, but they would be at some risk from Frigates as their fit is geared towards larger opponents.

There would be a danger of course that mobs would form of large numbers of DDs with medium weapons, mobbing larger ships. In analysis, a) this is the whole point of the class, and b) this would not greatly change the face of PvP as the firepower of the group would rapidly diminish with casualties, while a BS will take MUCH longer to kill and will keep dishing out the pain up to the moment of death.

It may make for some frantic fleet battles though. Twisted Evil

TG.




Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.03.16 15:51:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Tyson Gallane
It may make for some frantic fleet battles though. Twisted Evil


In otherwords, it would be fun to fly them.

Tyson Gallane
Caldari
THE SKiRMiSH
Posted - 2007.03.16 15:59:00 - [29]
 

Yuppers. They wouldn't be so useful as mission running ships as the small frigates would dodge the guns. And it would be inadvisable to try to solo PvP in them as they lack the tank of a cruiser or the maneuverability of a frigate.

They are designed for gang warfare. Cool

TG.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.03.16 16:15:00 - [30]
 

Oh I don't know about that, I can think of some rather unique ways to fit them so that it could do missions with a bit of flair, also for solo PvP... Hrm could be fun.


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