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Morbid Obssesion
Indecisive Certainty
Posted - 2007.02.28 23:14:00 - [121]

Originally by: Marcusi
Originally by: GM Guard
EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it.


Thank you, that brightened my day.

Had to chuckle at that line too Very Happy

Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.02.28 23:26:00 - [122]

Originally by: GM Nova
Originally by: isAzmodeus
This has been said before, but it should be said again as no one seems to listen. CCP does not make money off of GTCs. Yes, they make money off the sale, but they lose the same ammount in someone's subscription time.

Person A spends $ for 30 days.
Person B spends isk for the GTC.
CCP loses the $ B would have spent on 30 days subscription.

Wow, so we actually lose money when players subscribe?

Flawed logic FTW!!! (Not you, TN Very Happy)

Person "A" is a paying subscriber, and decides to sell some GTC's for some extra iskies. He spends his usually 14.95 per month or whatever plan he is on, plus $30 per GTC (I've never even looked into this, is it $30 for 90 days?)

He then sells those GTC's to Person "B" who has no RL money or has no access to the "usual" payment methods.

CCP does NOT lose money -- well, maybe a few dollars if the GTC's are $30 / 90 days (as I pay $34.95 per 3 months, IIRC) -- but they are still getting the $30 for the GTC, just from "A" not "B."

I hate RMT, and think CCP is a bit naive on this issue, but I think they are 100% right in their statements regarding GTC sales compared to RMT vendors like IGE or ebayers.

Look at it like so, each 90 day card sells for what, 100m-ish? So lets say some rich fool buys 20 GTC's and sells them, resulting in a cool 2 Billion isk for about $600. First off, this guy is an idiot for spending $600 on imaginary money, IMNSHO. Secondly, that is what, one dreadnaught? Not even a well fit one? How much impact does that have on the game? How much impact does it even have in a minor territorial conflict? I know one free dread would not have changed the outcome of any of the wars I've participated in.

Now, compare that to Cheater McArsehat who runs a RMT "business" out of Indonesia. He doesn't even play EVE, he is just making money with a bunch of various shady operations -- hacking accounts, macro-mining, escrow scams, whatever. He is raking in billions per DAY and selling them for RMT. Plus, ruining the market for casual empire players.

There is a big difference. I still think CCP should stop the GTC sales and figure out some other way to allow players with no access to traditional pay methods. But I don't think it is fair to compare RMT vendors with the fairly limited GTC market.

Nero Scuro
Jejaikaro Corporation
Posted - 2007.02.28 23:28:00 - [123]

Edited by: Nero Scuro on 28/02/2007 23:24:32
Free cookie and a hug to everyone who rallied against the hypocrisy of that blog. I got all ready to come here and incoherently rant after reading the blog only to find... you'd all gone off on incoherent rants already.

Truly beautiful. :O

Originally by: GM Nova
Let's get real here people. There is a fundemental misunderstanding as to the motivation behind CCPs decision to allow and support GTCs for isk.

We are supporting this trade in order to allow players to subscribe, who do not have access to the available payment methods. There are currently alot of countries where access to credit cards is severly limited. We want to allow them a chance to enjoy EVE. If there are players who have the means and are willing to pay for their subscription in exchange for isk, we fully support that.

The demand is fixed. You can't endlessly sell GTCs for isk unless there is demand for it.

In any case, the blog is not about GTC sales, it's about selling and buying ingame items for real money. I find it alarming if players do not agree that this is a problem which needs to be addressed.

I like how CCP are pretty much saying here - if you piece together what they've said in this thread and in the blog - that they're perfectly willing to compromise the quality and integrity of the gameplay for their current subscribers if it means getting subscriptions from people who could not otherwise pay.

Nice one CCP.

If they really wanted to let people play for ISK there are other (admittedly dubious) methods available (these two methods are just off the top of my head, try being imaginative);

Advertising for companies ingame ala Anarchy Online to people who subscribe using ISK to recuperate expenses,


forcing players who subscribe using ISK to wait in a queue if the servers are getting laggy, allowing paying customers into the server unhindered. As my (limited) understanding of servers goes, it costs pretty much the same to keep a server up regardless of how many people are using it at any one time. Obviously you only pay for a server/bandwidth as high as you expect to be used by your customers, which in CCP's case is about 30k connections or so before things start to really lag. So if things are getting laggy just kick those who aren't actually paying for the priveledge of using the server. Although CCP would probably lose subscriptions from people who can pay with cash but would rather pay using ISK... I don't know, CCP would still lose money this way over GTC selling but at least they wouldn't be compromising their gameplay to give those without CCs a chance to play.

Not that THAT excuse holds either. Your country developed enough for you to get an ISP that lets you play EVE? Then your country has cheques and international postage services too no doubt, so you can still pay for EVE using paybycash.

Elite Predators
Posted - 2007.03.01 01:04:00 - [124]

Edited by: St''oto on 01/03/2007 01:02:21
Good post Senior GM guard and I would like to thank you for your help on my account : )

EDIT: Hope you get that isk seller/hacker banned : )

Pangalactic Cab Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.01 02:03:00 - [125]

I don't give a **** if anyone in this game is buying his way to the top or not.

Sure it is lame tactics about as lame as using a second account for scouting gates or making extra ISK via mining.

But i couldn't care less about that- me is playing this game for fun otherwise it wouldn't be a game.

I am having the same fun in game using low class t1 standard fitted ships as flying around in billion faction crap ships with the most overprized fitting one can think of.

To everybody who sees this game as e-peen contest-
Congratulations for owning me ingame - absolutely shattered I move on having my fun.

Terra Incognita
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2007.03.01 03:06:00 - [126]

Wow, these dev blogs are making me cringe.

First the "Let's nerf missions (again!)" and "PVE is really PVP" blog, and now this one. I don't think I could write more than a few sentences about ISK RMTing without mentioning GTC sales, its hypocrisy at its most blatant--you're trading ISK for real money via another product. No matter how you cut it, the only difference is who gets the real money, CCP, or the farmers. As for them being in limited supply, i have never bought any but have looked around on a few occasions and I don't think i would have trouble buying a grip of them, selling them and making a pile of ISK. Since this game doesn't have a "leveling pressure", for me removing the "money pressure" would make doing things somewhat pointless, so thats not they way i want to go.

...but really, this discussion comes up in every MMO on the planet. Devs go "omg RMTing is baaaad, mkay. It ruins the game for everybody. Don't do it, you'll get in trouble. We're getting rid of bots & farmers". And, without exception, every dev or company representative is lying.

RMT makes the world go round, and here's why:

1. Farmer and bot accounts bring in alot of cash for CCP, and every other MMO owner out there. All that ISK / gold / adena takes alot of toons to make. Sure, ban them every once in a while so they have to relevel or retrain to get back where they were. In a mega-MMO like WoW, its not a big deal (they routinely ban more accounts in a single sweep than EVE has in total), but for a smaller MMO it makes a real difference in revenue.

2. RMT keeps players playing. Many people don't see why they should have to work another job, a virtual one, to have virtual fun. In many cases, spending an extra hour at work nets more ISK than an hour making money ingame for themselves. Some people just want to get ahead faster. Some need to replace losses. More people than you think could not hack it, at least at one point or another, without RMT.

3. RMT keeps the market stable. Farmers are known for supplying incomprehensibly huge amount of raw materials to the market. Farmers and bots mean cheap ore. Its not as huge a moderator in EVE as in other MMOs--mainly because of those licenses to print money, also known as T2 BPOs that manage to inflate prices independently of material values, but its a factor nonetheless. In other games, like Lineage 2, where crafting that godly lvl 75 S-grade bow might require a few million bones, skin, ore and such, farmers make it possible for the average player to do so.

For these reasons, no developer who wants to see their game continue to exist will sweep down and crush RMTers completely. It would be instant suicide--and don't be fooled, a few lines of code could easily track 90% of the RMT transactions (or more) automatically. A few lines of code could detect most, if not all, macroers the instant they start their macro. These things exist because developers allow them to.

Its just that simple.

Posted - 2007.03.01 03:11:00 - [127]

Well, it seems that the GTC sales went down since the new system was introduced. I see 90 days go for 305 mil ISK now (they were 360-380) which means the number of GTCs that CCP sell dropped or will drop soon. With this blog they're only trying to boost their sales a bit by scarring away potential isk buyers that arent "clever" enough to use the GTC system.

It's so pathetic how you, dear CCP, take us for some fools. Do you think that we arent able to see the whole picture ??? How can you hold your spine straight when you say ISK buying IS BAD and, on the other hand, you allow ISK buying ????

Tell me what is the difference between this 2 scenarios:

1. Someone is buying ISK from eBay or other ISK seller. Shortly, CASH = ISK
2. Someone is buying GTCs from CCP and then sell it on forums for ISK. Shortly, CASH = GTC = ISK

How are they different in the terms of "bought ISK is bad for the economy, bla bla" ? Isnt in both cases the ISK aqcuired with RL money ?? Just because the ISK buyer is using "one more step" to get his currency, his ISK doesnt affect the economy anymore ??

I know you allow GTC for ISK sales to boost your playerbase and it's working (i would not have 3 accounts if i would have to pay for all 3 with my card) BUT at least have the decency not to post a blog like this. All i can understand from it is that you think we are stupid and you can fool as with a questionable analysis and some banning threats !!

Solitary Forsaken
Posted - 2007.03.01 03:35:00 - [128]

Long post ... GM Blog.

Short answer, please purchase GTC's (so CCP gets their money) and sell them legally in game for ISK! Real life cash for ISK ... for some reason I can't see the difference ... other than making sure CCP gets their cut.

If it was truly about the player base and economy GTC selling for ISK wouldn't be allowed either...

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2007.03.01 03:51:00 - [129]

So you don't like the fact that PPL have payed for ISK and payed whole alliances to do their dirty work?

If this is the case stop the GTC trade for ISK as the same thing can be done that way!

Posted - 2007.03.01 06:19:00 - [130]

OMG where the *%^& was I when all this was going on ?

< The noob that has being paying RL cash to play eve for the last 2 years when he could of been playing it for free and making money at the same time ...YARRRR!!

Posted - 2007.03.01 07:52:00 - [131]

Hey, I'm pretty good at covering my ears with my hands and shouting "LA LA LA LA.." at the top of my voice, can I get some work with CCP/ISD?

You lot are seriously in denial about the GTCs. Honestly, tell me who has access to a gaming PC and an an internet connection but can't use something like paybycash? Isn't that the whole point of the paybycash service? Confused

Tyler Lowe
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2007.03.01 09:04:00 - [132]

Being on the other end of the situation with regard to GTC from 3rd party purchases, I would just like to offer up this to the lynch mob that generally forms whenever this is brought up, waiving their torches and pitchforks at CCP's gates.

CCP does not accept my credit card company. CCP does not recognize PayPal, so I cannot even make use of a 3rd party that *does* recognize my credit card, to buy GTC's directly from CCP. The 3rd party I purchase my GTC's from, does recognize both my credit card company, and PayPal. Plain and simply, if all GTC sales go direct, I don't renew my sub, because I can't. While the credit card I use is a widely accepted major creditor in my country, I don't neccesarily assume this is the case world wide. What I do assume, is that my case is in no way unique.

To say that allowing the 3rd party sale of GTC's is wrong, which I have read in a number of posts, seems to me an idea born of ignorance. There are those like me, for which this is the only way to enjoy Eve.

As far as the resale of GTC's for in game currency, I call that one a carefully calculated decision on CCP's part. It does allow people to use real life currency to get ahead, but it also allows people with in game currency to likewise benefit. The exchange in such a case is not real world cash for in game cash. It's playing time for in game cash. Yes, I understand that someone paid real currency for that time, but the end result is considerably different. These exchanges have, for one, much more limited appeal. You don't get something for nothing (real world cash for imaginary currency) you get nothing (no offense intended by this CCP) for something. It is not a self sustaining cycle for profit like RMT.

I think CCP made a very good attempt at placing controls on the inevitable desire some have for taking an easier road, and at least limiting the effects this would have on the game itself, while at the same time ensuring that such trades would help pay of all those nice hardware upgrades we all now enjoy. There are also some players that would not otherwise be able to support their subs as well, so not all of the effects of this policy are negative. It's wrong, IMO to paint the GTC policy with so broad a brush as to label it "evil".

I've been around online gaming a while now, and have yet to see all RMT type transactions stopped by any game company. It's well and good to stay seated on a moral high horse, but I think it's also a touch naive to believe that simply putting that high moral stand in writing will have any sort of major effect on the reality of the situation.

Kudos to CCP for treading this difficult ground as well as they have, and also to the GM's for helping to keep my in box clean, and the belts open to my mineral munching corpmates who compete daily with the macros.

Notnearly OnEnough
Posted - 2007.03.01 10:23:00 - [133]

Edited by: Notnearly OnEnough on 01/03/2007 10:22:04
afaik the major way to sell ISK is obviously, you have to have it. and in order to support the large volume of ISK that is available oog, then it has to be transfered, somehow. so, institute an IG money banking system that monitors transfers and figure out the logic of these transfers. in OOG banking this is already done, and the amount that triggers a review of the transfer is only $10,000 USD.

another thing is in order to have ISK you have to make it, and macrominers are the major offender. I think that ORE transfers need to be reviewed. and I think GTC users are the major offenders, I am not saying all are, but the macrominers are mostly from 3rd world places where you can make more money IG than OOG. so watch the timers and ore amounts, check for a GTC and then trigger an alarm to watch the account. if that account transfers their ore to another player, check the recipient. if the recipient gets ore from several players. then they are the ISK pimp.

as far as GTC goes, the only argument i have seen is people buy a GTC and transfer it for ISK to someone in order to make ISK. and I agree, thats the slow road to wealth.

However, there is another side to GTC. let's assume you macromine. and your time is coming to buy another month, well. if you macromine your ore pimp gives you 150m ISK and your macrominer buys another month. the best part is, CCP doesn't know who the macrominer is because they don't have billing info that can be proved.

CCP needs to work with paypal. paypal has a great verification system that checks to see if an account is real by transfering a random amount from 0.01 to $1.00 into your checking account (and that works in ANY country because it uses banking codes not credit companies). Once the amount is verified with a return email stating the random amount you received then they know who you are. from that point on, CCP can set up an automatic transfer and not a credit transfer. The best part of that for CCP is they don't have to pay the credit fees.

anyhow, another thing CCP could do is sell GTC directly using paypal thru this website. and not allow them in other places.

The GTC you get at the local hobby store or whereever could only be used to set-up an account. all future purchase would be made thru the verified paypal or money transfer system.

imho, macrominers and 3rd world labor camps are the source and that's what needs to be addressed

Eewec Ourbyni
Posted - 2007.03.01 11:04:00 - [134]

Originally by: Tyler Lowe
Being on the other end of the situation with regard to GTC from 3rd party purchases, I would just like to offer up this to the lynch mob that generally forms whenever this is brought up, waiving their torches and pitchforks at CCP's gates.

CCP does not accept my credit card company. CCP does not recognize PayPal, so I cannot even make use of a 3rd party that *does* recognize my credit card, to buy GTC's directly from CCP. The 3rd party I purchase my GTC's from, does recognize both my credit card company, and PayPal. Plain and simply, if all GTC sales go direct, I don't renew my sub, because I can't. While the credit card I use is a widely accepted major creditor in my country, I don't neccesarily assume this is the case world wide. What I do assume, is that my case is in no way unique.

I'm not saying I disagree with you in the short term, however it was also stated that Paypal is getting added sometime soon(TM) to the "MY Account" section as a payment option, so... long term when/if that ever sees the light of day the need for GTC's reduces. It won't remove the need for GTC's completely, but it'll certainly make a dent in there actual need.

OK, that said, if every customer who can buy GTC's through Paypal switches to paying the sub with paypal directly to ccp instead of to an intermediary then we'll see if the market for GTC's just dries up on it's own. It would be interesting to see exactly how many people actually buy GTC's from the high street.

Posted - 2007.03.01 11:45:00 - [135]

Originally by: Arlenik Emmanouelik
This is a joke, right?

You have people from the community who write for EVE magazine. They have direct links in their articles to their websites relating to the article(ex; EVE Tanking HERE. Some of those sites have advertisements for buying ISK for real money. So, how is CCP going to indirectly advertise ISK selling, and then have a GM write a BS blog about how RMT is bad?

CCP you're up for review.

The ads on websites like that are generated from google, afaik, based on the content of the website. Since you can google "eve" and a ton of isk selling sites come up, it is safe to assume that isk selling ads will be brought up in google advertisements. However, I think if the website should be responsible and ask google to remove isk selling ads from their ad service, or remove the service entirely.

And yea, any word on GTCs?

Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.01 12:28:00 - [136]

Incidentally, after reading this blog, I went on a bit of a forage for Dev related GTC statements, and found this gem from Kieron back in 2005:

Originally by: Kieron
We allowed the trade of ISK for Game Time as an extension of the policy allowing the trade of ISK for game related services like TS server rental, forum signatures, etc. When we discussed allowing the trade of ISK for Game Time, the thought that we were inadvertently allowing the 'sale of ISK for RL cash' didn't occur to us. The decision to allow the trade was not profit driven.

When Sony came out with their microcharge servers (sale of game items for RL cash), the internal CCP discussion lasted about 2 minutes. The discussion about Second Life's business model lasted longer, but the results of the discussions were the same. We do not have, nor do we want to have, the ability to clone Tranquility and start up a microcharge server.

We've discussed changing the police on allowing the trade of ISK for Game Time a number of times. For the time being, the policy is going to stay as it is. Just like the macro miner/ISK farmer issue, we don't have the manpower or resources to police a policy disallowing trades of this nature. We will re-open discussion on this issue again.

In a nutshell, we tried to be nice and do something for the benefit of the players. Some players turned this around to where it backfired on us.

Community Manager,
EVE Online

In a nut shell: we didn't mean it to be a form of RMT, but thats what it is. We don't like it, but aren't going to try and stop it. Its all your fault, player base. We might reconsider in the future.

Time to reconsider, perhaps?! GTCs have been a constant stain on CCP's record since they were introduced, and a constant point of contention among the community. There are people who rely on GTCs for their subscription, but I feel it'd be more productive if CCP figured out a way of helping them in a new way, that doesn't harm everyone else on TQ.

Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.01 12:37:00 - [137]

Originally by: Tyler Lowe

CCP does not accept my credit card company. CCP does not recognize PayPal, so I cannot even make use of a 3rd party that *does* recognize my credit card, to buy GTC's directly from CCP. The 3rd party I purchase my GTC's from, does recognize both my credit card company, and PayPal. Plain and simply, if all GTC sales go direct, I don't renew my sub, because I can't. While the credit card I use is a widely accepted major creditor in my country, I don't neccesarily assume this is the case world wide. What I do assume, is that my case is in no way unique.

Oh, and just to be helpful, really: One of CCP's payment options is Notably, they support the "put money in an envelope witha stamp on it" method of payment, and unless I'm very much mistaken, they themselves support PayPal too. If you want to use PayPal, check them out just in case.

Pyrrhon's Salvage Unlimited
Posted - 2007.03.01 12:53:00 - [138]

Ok so after reading this mess I have a question,bear with me I could be mistaken in my knowledge and if so nevermind.

It has been said that GTC's are helpful because some countries dont have a credit or debit system in place to pay your subscription with.But I was to believe that the only way to get the game is download online,and to do that,you would have to set up and pay for the original purchase of the game online.

So if they can purchase and download the original game client/pay for it,why cant they pay there subscription in the same manner they bought their account with.

like I said,I could be mistaken since I dont know if a person can buy the game client with a GTC.

ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.01 13:31:00 - [139]

Originally by: GM Guard

4. Evil conglomerates are formed and prices go up!

As you probably realize by now, ISK sellers go to great lengths to get their hands on ISK. Recently we busted a blueprint conglomerate that was set up just to skim ISK off the top. That extra ISK was then sold for real life currency. The players involved bought a large number of expensive blueprints over a long period of time with the purpose of monopolizing the market on certain items. They attempted to drive prices as high as possible so that they could skim more money off the top and sell more ISK on Ebay. This went on for some time and I am sure that a large number of the playerbase unknowingly felt the effect of this when buying ships and modules.

This conglomerate was found out and brought down by your friendly GMs and all those involved given a lifelong vacation from EVE. Their precious pile of blueprints will be reseeded to lucky players through the blueprint lottery. This is a perfect example of how those willing to buy ISK for real money can directly cause inflation and can end up costing the rest of the playerbase a lot of ISK.

It is not the isk buyers fault when t2 conglomerates emerge and use their monopoly to raise prices!

The irony of it all is that the real money trade in this specific case is a good thing, because it provided a reason to break this cartel. Had they not sold their isk on ebay, they would still be playing and increasing prices even more!

Don't blame game design flaws on isk buyers.

Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2007.03.01 15:58:00 - [140]

Edited by: DrAtomic on 01/03/2007 20:23:17
EDIT: forget it, I was wrong GM Nova did finish up on his post. I had the IA thread in mind which was deserted.

Don Temujin
Mothers of EVE
Posted - 2007.03.01 17:22:00 - [141]

Edited by: Don Temujin on 01/03/2007 17:21:28
Quick heads-up for those who get confused between ISK eBay-ing and GTC selling:

  • eBay'ed ISK allows people to buy their way into virtually infinite in-game wealth at the expense of the non-capped pool of mineral/resources, which means RL financial edge translates in unrestricted in-game-edge.
    A secondary effect is to drive in-game prices crazy: mass-farmed resources plummet in value, while prices of high-end stuff bought by ISK buyers go through the roof.

  • GTC sales are limited by the use actual players' have for GTCs: you won't be able to get more ISK for your GTCs than what people may need to cover for their subscriptions.
    GTC sales in fact only change the distribution of who pays RL money vs those who pay in ISK, for a (comparatively) constant total number of subscriptions.

  • Put another way: GTC sales are an automatic balancing method that evens the playfield among the time-challenged (who buy GTCs for RL cash) and the fiancially-challenged (who buy GTCs for ISK).

    Oh, and about this:
    Originally by: GM Guard
    EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it.

    I don't know what is the scariest thought here: that a CCP representative dares feeding us such blatant BS, or that he possibly is clueless enough to honestly believe what he wrote...

    Posted - 2007.03.01 17:54:00 - [142]

    GM Guard,

    I was thinking, Your (Or CCP's) reason for selling GCT's and allowing them to be sold for ISK is in it's reasoning good, it allows people to play that can't afford to pay in cash...

    There is also a market for ISK otherwise the ISK sales would not be found...

    Why not have CCP sell ISK for cash and buy ISK for credit?

    It's simply a book keeping effort... As a player with more time then money, I go to my account and sell CCP some of my ISK, the ISK is withdrawn from my account and placed in the ISK Market... my account is "Credited" with a cash value that pays for my account subscription (and only my account subscription)...

    On the other hand, There is this BPO I really want, but can't afford the 1.75 Billion ISK, so I go to the ISK Market, and buy the ISK from CCP...

    No more GCT scams selling bad codes, you can undercut the non-CCP isk sellers and you have added another method of income to CCP...

    Where do we access this ISK market? Why, right here on this website... I log in to my account...
    Select a link there to the ISK market and buy or sell ISK...
    and the Credit card associated with my account is charged if I buy ISK or my account is credited if I am selling.

    As long as there is no way for me to "Profit" by buying and selling ISK, it would limit abuse... and in fact I should lose a tad bit if I were to buy ISK from the market and then turn around and sell those same ISK's.

    As we are not really able to point and say if ISK sales or ISK purchases are greater at this point, CCP could choose to either "seed" the ISK market at start, then allow it to manage itself (only be able to sell the ISK that it bought) or just print money (Unlimited ISK for sale).

    A player that really really wants the ISK will get it, if the cost may be their account they will find a way around it... If that "Need" for ISK could be filled safely (without the potential loss of the account) there would be no reason to use an outside source to buy the ISK.

    For the flamers, I am not supporting the purchase of ISK, I am just acknowledging that there is already a market and looking to help CCP profit from it.

    North Eastern Swat
    Pandemic Legion
    Posted - 2007.03.01 18:29:00 - [143]

    Very informative read, a mate of mine bought isk once and i nearly flipped off my head at him when he informed me, sorry not going to name him though he learned from his mistake and is now a hard working Eve player. YARRRR!! Also the macro miners mine 23/7 don't forget that hour or so of downtime Razz

    Terghon Tu
    DarkNet Node Fanaticus
    Posted - 2007.03.01 20:03:00 - [144]

    Firstly, loved the article. I've dealt with "gold farmers" in several games, including EVE and they always affect the game for the worse. I think your blog didn't go far enough, however. Perhaps because you don't have any solid proof of some things, so you couldn't officially mention them. I know there are some alliances that run 10/10 complexes, farming them continuously, and sell the isk for cash to maintain multiple shared accounts. I also know that it is very likely that some of the macro-miners are "sweatshop" style businesses.

    On the separate issue of GTC selling, I agree it sends a bit of a mixed message, but that the intent behind it isn't so a few people can makes lots of isk using real-life money. I buy Game Time Cards from a corpmate that sells them. If he couldn't sell them, and I couldn't buy them, chances are my real-life income wouldn't support playing EVE. Also, there's a limit to the number of GTC someone can sell. Even with reselling and trading of cards, what ultimately happens is that someone uses the card to play EVE. That's a limited market. For instance, if I had a three billion isk, I could buy ten 90-day GTC. But seriously, who would buy three years of time in advance? Isk selling directly for cash however, is virtually unlimited. Anyone that buys isk, could buy more isk if their real-life cash could handle it. That encourages the isk sellers to do whatever they can to get more isk to sell, regardless of how it screws up the game.

    I also agree with a couple posters above that it would be nice to see some weekly or monthly statistics on the number of people suspended/banned for isk selling/buying.

    Cayote XIII
    Two Brothers Mining Corp.
    Posted - 2007.03.01 20:37:00 - [145]

    Well, it seems to me if CCP was really serious about stopping the sale of Isk for RL money, they could spend a couple thousand dollars buying it on eBay or on various web sites and track the folks down that way. I do realize that if they did, it simply change the way it gets sold...

    Vyktor Abyss
    The Abyss Corporation
    Posted - 2007.03.01 22:03:00 - [146]

    Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 02/03/2007 00:03:12
    Although I think it is great news that CCP busted a tech 2 blueprint cartel that were selling ISK, I do wonder how many more ISK farmers are out there that they are missing or ignoring for lack of proof.

    I've reported several macro-ratters and would really love some statistics on just how many of these guys get banned perhaps on a weekly or monthly basis. Is there a problem publishing these figures? Surely it is good PR to show ythe community ou're policing the players effectively and adequately.

    I'd also like to comment on GTC. I appreciate that some people do not have credit cards etc necessary to pay for the game, however I think the GTC system is too open to abuse.

    For example:

    I wonder if I was a day old player and bought a stack of GTC's, how much real money it would take me to buy enough GTC to buy a tech 2 blueprint capable of producing the ISK to then support the rest of my gameplay through buying GTC with ISK tech 2 profits for as long as EVE exists???

    I don't know GTCs well enough myself to do the maths, but I'm pretty sure that this highlights two issues with (i) GTCs selling 'time' to get ahead enough to then make the game self sustaining for as long as some tech 2 BPOs are ISK printers. (ii) Tech 2 BPOs which Oveur has recently suggested will remain in the game indefinately (likely unchallenged I expect in terms of profit margins) without sufficient competition.

    GTCs are and admirable concept, but surely there are better ways to get money from people without credit cards etc. BACS transfers, postal orders, paypal for example...

    If CCP intend as was stated earlier that they WANT some players to be able to play for free, then I have to ask why? Why should their luck in the tech 2 lottery for example mean they no longer have to play by the same rules as the rest of us...That is preferential treatment and does very little to engender my trust that was shattered with the T20 incident.

    On the whole though - good blog and keep up the good work. Though please rethink your GTC sales - maybe a cap per account in terms of buying/selling or something if you really see no alternative.

    Cheers, Vyk.

    Posted - 2007.03.01 22:45:00 - [147]

    Originally by: GM Guard
    EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world, that is unless CCP is geting the money from the isk sales, then its perfectly fine.

    lawl ccp

    Posted - 2007.03.01 23:12:00 - [148]

    Originally by: Vyktor Abyss

    If CCP intend as was stated earlier that they WANT some players to be able to play for free...

    I do not think the GM said they wanted folks to play for free, I think it was more of the idea they did not care all that much about who paid for the account... Players use ISK to buy GCT's from folks who paid the subscription fee's for the time card... so the account is paid for, just not by the person who is playing on that account.

    Lions Of Judah
    Intrepid Crossing
    Posted - 2007.03.02 00:41:00 - [149]

    Edited by: Juntos on 02/03/2007 00:51:32
    Also think this is a little hypocritical, along the same lines as the T2 BPO rubbish and lets nerf our mission runners and try and force them into gank land cos our gank bears are getting lonely and need something to cuddle, err I mean shoot. If you allow GTC's for ISK then you publically morally condone and agree with ISK for RL money. No amount of blather about limited amounts changes this fact.

    However, I have no problem with GTC's for ISK, nor do I have a problem with the macro miners, people buying ISK, or people buying characters.

    GTC's provide a way for more people to play, hurrah!

    Macros reduce the cost of minerals which reduces the cost of items for which the BPO's are widely available. So for these, mostly T1 items, which most new players are using macro mining is a good thing. As it is minerals in game are way over priced.

    People buying ISK is just people and you will never stop people using their real life cash to get ahead. It is human nature to want to win and for some people this is all that matters. If you stop it on ebay it will find other ways to happen.

    I do have a problem with the spamming and the scamming however, though these would appear to be a daily fact of life in RL as well.

    There is only one real solution to ISK farmers, sell the ISK yourselves for the same or less than the ISK farmers. Like it or not this is the only solution that will stop the ISK farmers as their market will be much smaller and there will come a point where it is no longer cost effective to farm isk.

    You can double the effect of this by fixing the market problems. FIX T2 BPOs for goodness sake! Just make it possible to buy them if you have the right amount of research points, or sell them on the market. This would rapidly put a stop to the huge ISK profits to be made in that market and reduce the cost of a lot of stuff.

    The only other solution to the problem is draconian RL registration processes which would be very unpopular, combined with more traceability of ISK, items etc in game.

    Daelin Blackleaf
    White Rose Society
    Posted - 2007.03.02 02:09:00 - [150]

    What a strange blog when one considers the nature of power in EvE.

    Is not owning an army of alts giving people an unfair ingame advantage based on their RL wallet?

    Just one alt allows a player to do a great many things that anyone without one cannot (off the top of my head scouting, hauling mined ore, self cyno, remote tanking missions) and I imagine many people feel almost forced to run a second char just to compete.

    Im sorry but so long as meta-gaming is supported in all it's forms by CCP I find this blog hard to take seriously.

    I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with it, I hasten to add. Simply pointing out that you are saying one thing and doing quite another. The power of two offers of the past, the GTC sales, and the frequent use (misuse?) of meta-gaming tactics without reimbursement all suggest that a level playing field is not supported by CCP while meta-gaming is.

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