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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.02.22 12:50:00 - [151]
 

Personally all the changes sound really great. The LP pooling, the new mission and agent structure, the higher level agents and missions all in low sec, the tradeable/sellable LP. Good stuff!

To the idiot carebears who are whining about all the higher/highest level agents being in lowsec/0.0: STFU.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2007.02.22 12:50:00 - [152]
 

Wow. Just what this game needed, more gankbears in low-sec Rolling Eyes. More PVE-fitted targets at no increased risk to them.

And now that there will be zero isk coming in from missions, where will the isk be pumped into the game from? So everyone will have loots and stuff, but no isk to trade for?

Wheya
Amarr
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
Posted - 2007.02.22 12:53:00 - [153]
 

inflation, bounty - from missions to 0.0 ratting I think it is too easy to earn lots of isk. I think bounty on frigates and cruisers should stay high to give young pilots a chance to catch up and to replace losses but the bounty on battleships is way too high. The ratio of (frigate/time)/(battleship/time) too much favours the old timers. The time you spent playing eve actively should be a greater factor when it comes to earn isk than the amount of skillpoints a player has.

loot - from the very beginning I have thought so many named items and t1 items in loot are a bad idea. The t1 market for most modules is almost dead because of this. It's no longer a problem for a 2003 producer who can produce battleships and more valuable stuff but I would love to see cheaper modules produced by young producers. I would love to see no more module loot at all. Instead of this I would love to see some kind of salvage components (in low quantity) that enables us to produce named items. This might be an idea for t3 production as well.

loot/bounty ratio - while decreasing bounty please don't give all rewards in form of loot. Some players like me hate looting/salvaging. Both professions, fighting and looting, should give an equal reward/time payout.

difficulty - it's no challenge anymore in 0.0 ratting and level 4 missions after the introduction of rigs. Everything needs an overhaul. Level 5,6,7 agents are a good idea. Low sec and 0.0 could need more challenges as well.

LP rewards - good to see the shop idea for loyality points

standings - I was running missions primarily because of RP reasons and I already have a 10 standing. My Khanid char easily went form 0 to 8 to gain jumpclone access. I hope you add new standing levels above 10 for the level 5 and higher missions.

mission balance - it is good for roleplay to have npc factions doing their racial damage types. It is bad for the game because this forces players to fit the so called "PvE" setups which can not compete with "PvP" setups in PvP situations. I would love to see all factions doing all kinds of damage. I would love to see the 'boss of the dungeon/belt' trying to escape after his shield is to 20% or so. This would enforce/enable "PvE"ers to fit "PvP" setups including scramblers.

Summery: decrease bounties on high level NPC but not on easy NPC. Complete overhaul of loot tables. This means less inflation without hurting the noob and more chances for noob producers. The t1 market/mineral prices will adapt to this changes. NPC balance should go away from RP to PvP (same in 0.0).



Last but not least encourage people to go to low sec. This could not only be done by adding more rewards to low sec but also by giving more penalties to high sec such as much higher factory rents, market fees, docking/jumpgate fees, bigger ships not allowed in high sec. This changes should be drastic, otherwise they would have no effect. Encouraging only 2% of all carebears doesn't help. Encouraging all players older than 6 months would help because the pirate/'carebear' ratio then would favour the carebear. Lot's of targets for pirates but at a much greater risk for them to face united carebear's resistance.

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2007.02.22 12:58:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Wheya
Last but not least encourage people to go to low sec.
Why? This is the thing I don't understand. What is so good about low sec? My considerable experience with it is that it's Empire's cesspool.

Callistus
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:04:00 - [155]
 

Judging by the quantity of carebear whining in this thread, this move is exactly what eve needs.

Go CCP!

Po'Cha Mat'usa
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:04:00 - [156]
 

Fantastic CCP, well done.

Your finally moving back towards your 'vision' and stopping the slide into a 'generic' brand MMO that appeals to solo PvE player.

You survived (with a profit) back when this type of player wasn't attracted to the game and you will survive when the little whiners leave. Game will be better for it too.

/me salutes the brave people at CCP sticking to their vision

Woddawick
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:09:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Par'Gellen
Originally by: Wheya
Last but not least encourage people to go to low sec.
Why? This is the thing I don't understand. What is so good about low sec? My considerable experience with it is that it's Empire's cesspool.
You're missing the point.

What you are saying is "there's nothing worth going to low-sec for so why do CCP want us there?"

What CCP are saying is "there's nothing worth going to low-sec for so why not put something worthwhile in there so that people will want to go there".

See the difference?

maarud
The Scope
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:09:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Callistus
Judging by the quantity of carebear whining in this thread, this move is exactly what eve needs.

Go CCP!


Aye, What alot of people don't seem to realise too is that no one is forcing anyone anywhere. Lvl 4's will still be in empire, run those like you have been now, now one is FORCING you to go run level 5's+

Callistus
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:13:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: maarud
Originally by: Callistus
Judging by the quantity of carebear whining in this thread, this move is exactly what eve needs.

Go CCP!


Aye, What alot of people don't seem to realise too is that no one is forcing anyone anywhere. Lvl 4's will still be in empire, run those like you have been now, now one is FORCING you to go run level 5's+


Well except the bit where level 4s "become closer to Level 3 in difficulty". Really CCP is moving level 4s to low sec and calling them level 5s, but keep that under your hat Wink

Either way its awesome and I seriously hope CCP sticks to their vision of a "PVP" focused game and isn't swayed in any way by all the whining.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:16:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Po'Cha Mat'usa
You survived (with a profit) back when this type of player wasn't attracted to the game and you will survive when the little whiners leave. Game will be better for it too.

/me salutes the brave people at CCP sticking to their vision


Word! Who needs paying customers anyway.

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:18:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Par''Gellen on 22/02/2007 13:17:22
Originally by: Woddawick
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Originally by: Wheya
Last but not least encourage people to go to low sec.
Why? This is the thing I don't understand. What is so good about low sec? My considerable experience with it is that it's Empire's cesspool.
You're missing the point.

What you are saying is "there's nothing worth going to low-sec for so why do CCP want us there?"

What CCP are saying is "there's nothing worth going to low-sec for so why not put something worthwhile in there so that people will want to go there".

See the difference?
No. You misunderstand. That's not what I'm saying at all.

There are plenty of great things about low sec. Higher LP from missions, excellent ore to mine, fully functional POS's, better NPC's to hunt, etc. etc. The problem with low sec is not the rewards. It's the people that inhabit it that make it about as appealing as a two weeks dead cow. The only thing they can realistically do to move people into lower sec space it to get rid of the ganktards that fill it.

This entire blog just leaves the majority of the playerbase thinking "Oh great. They are adding something else I'll probably never do..."

Callistus
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:42:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Par'Gellen

The only thing they can realistically do to move people into lower sec space it to get rid of the ganktards that fill it.

Risk vs reward. Currently I'd argue that the rewards of low sec aren't worth the risk that the player pirates pose. CCP, rightly so, believe that to fix this they need to increase the rewards of low sec, hence the introduction of higher level missions only avaliable there. I'd be all for increasing the difficulty of belt npcs in low sec as well to move people into the belts, but thats a slightly different topic.

You, on the other hand want to balance it in the other direction by reducing the risks in low sec. Now which one of these options fits with CCP's vision of a "PVP focused" game? If you want risk-free profit, stay in high sec. If you want better profits grow some balls and take some risks.

Garr Anders
Minmatar
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:44:00 - [163]
 

Overal it sounds good, with it's little up and downs, but IMHO opinion you need a more interesting agro system for your NPCs.

NPCs should:

1.) and most important, be able to switch targets
2.) re-act to different ship types, which are in the mission area
3.) re-act to different module types, depending on from what ship type it comes
4.) retreat and reengage


Currently it's one player take all aggro and tank, and the other players take out what is shooting the tank.

If NPC ships react to incoming fire, dependig on the damage and from what (player)ship type, you'll have NPC destroyers that shoot the player BS tank, and get taken damage by a player frig, switch their target to the player frigates rather than just wasting their ammo to the tank.

Also if a player cruiser is using support modules to a player ship, it should get primary for all frigs and BC to take out this player support ship, same for player ECM ships.


Dominique Vasilkovsky
Gallente
BFG Tech
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:51:00 - [164]
 

All missions should really be closer to PvP engagements so:

No NPC blobs, 1vs1 or 1vs1 + tacklers. For lvl5+ go for gang vs gang.
Omni damage from NPCs, since it will be harder but more realistic to tank decrese the total damage output to be closer to normal PvP setups.
On the higher levels give us NPCs that NOS and other evil stunts.
Give the NPCs a chance to warp off if they are losing so warp scramblers will be needed.
Permit MWDs in mission deadspaces as.. well.. they are PvP modules.

In the end there shouldn't be such a thing as dedicated PvE or PvP setups, just fighting setups. Also people would be able to handle the dangers in lowsec when they finally reach lvl5 agents.

altambra
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:51:00 - [165]
 

\o/ for more varied missions, with a better gradation in difficulty!
\o/ for shared rewards, a much-needed feature to improve player grouping!

Worries:

Please don't make it so I need a mini-profession item to finish a mission with no warning that this is going to happen.

Please consider abandoning the agent quality system and compressing the standings requirements a bit (the latter will have to happen anyway if you add more levels)

Please consider giving back the miscellaneous items given as mission rewards, although it would be better if there were no totally useless ones (e.g. small arms - at the very least there should be a buy order for them within an adjacent hisec region to qualify as not useless)

(Low-sec missionrunning isn't that bad when I've been doing it - I only ever get killed at gates in 0.0 ...)

Siri Blue
Gallente
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion
Phalanx Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.22 13:52:00 - [166]
 

I just wish you would start changing small things like the need for speed overhaul of missions, new missions, other blackmarket LP offers and stuff like that right NOW.
Otherwise nothing will happen at all until the end of summer which will make things look bleak...
Change one little thing every day and lets see if its good...

Also...changing everything at the same time will cause a lot of trouble, the changes will be shocking and so will be the reacion...


Its always easier/better to gradually bring up the heat...
Otherwise its getting too hot too fast.

Change one little thing every day and lets see if its good...

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:02:00 - [167]
 

I've got a much better idea to make low-sec not suck. When a known pirate my corp has -10'd comes into our system, for the love of god let us go and kill his add wherever it is w/o being crim-flagged.

Sinder Ohm
Demonic Corp
G00DFELLAS
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:04:00 - [168]
 

Ok I have been reading alot of these posts now and actualy agrre with many people that taking lvl 4s away from the empire carebears will be taking away thier primary source of fun and income. Perhaps taking all the high end lvl4s to low sec eg WC 4 Extravaganzas and so forth.

Originally by: Gwendolyne Croft
Missions Lvl 5 only in low sec? I dont see that. Why? That the low sec pirates gets more targets? I see the problem with capital ships and Empire, but when i want to do some missions, the last thing i want to is PvP with other players.

- Make Gates in low sec 0.1-0.4 safe
- Hide Missions in low sec 0.1-0.4 that they cant be found with exploration

If there is a problem with Population - just add new Systems to the EvE Universe.


I must respectfully disgree there.. so you basicly want a instanced dungeon ? we all know what the answer to that would be.

1 burning point I have though is are these "new rats" going to vulnrable to ewar cos afaik (I stand to be corrected ewar has little or no effects on rats)

violator2k5
Poor Old Ornery nOObs
Turdz Asshatz N Grieferz
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:15:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: violator2k5 on 22/02/2007 14:17:55
nice missions we'll take them!!!

on another note

"New missions in Levels 4 and up will focus on the escalating warfare between the Empires and factions. This incidentally enables you to engage Dreadnoughts, Carriers and Motherships"

not a good idea in my opinion, since when should it be allowed to have dreads / carriers / moms in high sec empire when player based cap ships (except frieghters) are not supposed to be after recent changes.

as for the no bounties...... i hope they have some decent loot ^^

//added

in addition i hope you guys actually do something good with the placement of mission agents and not cluster***k them like before. systems like motsu where most of the caldari navy best agents are seem to be way to over populated and on top of that you guys added a new dead end system for new players 1 jump away to increase traffic. hopefully you guys will spread them out a little more if possible to decrease this, as with new players joining the game most of them will automatically be flocking to the best agents first Laughing

Dominique Vasilkovsky
Gallente
BFG Tech
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:15:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: James Duar
I've got a much better idea to make low-sec not suck. When a known pirate my corp has -10'd comes into our system, for the love of god let us go and kill his add wherever it is w/o being crim-flagged.
Most pirates are outlaws already so you can shoot them as much as you want and if they shoots back the sentrys will be on your side shooting them. The not-yet-outlaw pirats will soon be that as well after they killed a few hard to resist mission runners...

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:18:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Borasao on 22/02/2007 14:18:01
Quote:
It depends what CCP are going to do to L4 missions and what the higher levels give you.

Adding L5 to L7 could simply be another source of revenue. Empire dwellers will either utilise it or not exactly as the situation is now. We choose not to mine Ark and Bistot so we can choose not to run L5 or higher agents.


Quote:
As I've posted previously it depends what they change about L4.

Put it another way:If they don't change L4 then no-one is pushing you. They are just dangling another carrot in front of you. Reach out and take it or don't - your choice.


Quote:
You're missing the point.

What you are saying is "there's nothing worth going to low-sec for so why do CCP want us there?"

What CCP are saying is "there's nothing worth going to low-sec for so why not put something worthwhile in there so that people will want to go there".

See the difference?



No... that's not what they are saying... they are saying "there's nothing worth going to low-sec for so we're going to make highsec somewhat less worth playing in and put what you had in highsec into lowsec so that you *must* go into lowsec if you want to continue your current play style, oh, except even then it won't be the same play style because when we do that, you'll have to put up with all the ganktard piwates that you decided weren't worth it and stayed in highsec space to avoid before".

I haven't seen a single negative post about L5+ agents and/or their being in lowsec, other than the concern that putting these agents in 0.0 will simply provide them to only the mega-alliances if they are put into 0.0 space. Considering what it would take to run them, even that isn't really an issue except that it just means that lowsec gets even more money than they do now off of officer/deadspace equipment. (Personally, other than perhaps the pirate faction agents, any agents related to the Empire corporations should be in no lower than 0.1 space, IMO.) Additionally, the idea that a mission will require at least one capital ship to be able to tank/destroy the targets basically requires the mission to be in 0.4- space. So, in any case, the L5+ missions sound great.

The shared LP pool for an entire NPC corporation is a great idea, as well. It allows you to run missions with friends at other agents in other regions for different 'flavor' without worrying about no contributing to your preferred agent's LP standing.

The LP-as-an-alternate-currency idea is also great. You'd get to see what costs what and plan accordingly. Also, it removes the "I have the LP now but have to keep running missions in order to keep getting offers until I finally get the offer I want" bit from mission running.

The big controversy is the hinted (somewhat strongly) nerf at L4 mission agents in highsec space. I think that if CCP left them as they are now (basically leaving L1-L4 as they are now) then there'd be almost no concern from anyone.

So... Leave L1-L4 alone and add all that other stuff and I think you'll have a winner, CCP.

PS: If you could somehow make it where all the 'helpers' in a mission get a share of the LP and faction in addition to any monitary gains, it'd be even better.


Of course... there's always the background question of... why are you adding all this when even the favored major alliances can't even siege each other's POS without nodes *crashing*?

Callistus
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:19:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: violator2k5

not a good idea in my opinion, since when should it be allowed to have dreads / carriers / moms in high sec empire when player based cap ships (except frieghters) are not supposed to be after recent changes.

Did you miss the bit where Oveur said level 5s and up will be 0.4 and below only?

adamg
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:24:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: adamg on 22/02/2007 14:21:33
i like a few of the things mentioned, not everyone who runs missions wants to be in low sec though.... taking some of the harder lvl 4's and using them on lvl 5's which have to be run in 0.4 <<< wtf? whats the point in that.. the LP is a good idea especially corp based LP, mission rewards with the ability to share out to group.. think thats been a long time coming :)

but i dont think its at all fair to force people that enjoy fighting rats and not people, to mission out in low sec space for a challange or a chance at decent items to sell.... but thats just my oppinion

violator2k5
Poor Old Ornery nOObs
Turdz Asshatz N Grieferz
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:27:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Callistus
Did you miss the bit where Oveur said level 5s and up will be 0.4 and below only?


im going by what was written in the dev blog and responded. if it was asked before if the cap ships were being deployed in low sec and 0.0 then i missed it. was just responding with my views on the issues i feel need addressing

Primus Remors
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:28:00 - [175]
 

Ensignias /Tags as bounty will not work. No-one will buy tags if theres no need for them. And if there is a need for them, the tag will not drop often enough without inflating the prices close to rediculous. Currently pirate tags that are needed for some game mechanics (missions or mission rewards) are sold 3 to 10 times the price of bounty on the ship that drops them. And others like electrum tags drop plenty but have no need, are worth nothing. Donít even think this unless you fix the need/drop ratio factor of Ensignias/Tags

Factional warfare. You have tried it for sometime and failed. Why keep pushing in more factional warfare missions? Those missions too will be permarejected by most missionrunners unless every ship in them starts dropping faction loot and only faction loot. You must have stats on the current missions and how they get rejected.

As for the security status borders, 1.0 to 0.5 is slowsec, meaning your agressor will get killed but only after he has killed you. 0.4 to 0.1 is nosec as theres no-one to help you police vise. Gate- and stationguns are not enough to give the name lowsec. To make 0.4-0.1 actually lowsec, you need to make the agent whos mission you are doing to warn you if someone starts probing you. And if you actually get attacked, the agent should send in reinforcements to help you out of there and relocate the mission.

0.0 as human controlled Faction (alliance) space is an utopia and will never work as ccp seems to have envisoned it. Changing current missions or adding new to lure people to nosec or utopia wil not work. What you need to do is change both consepts, and the mission system has close to nothing to do with either of em. How this should be done is not part of this thread though.

My 4 paid accounts worth

Callistus
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:31:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: violator2k5
Originally by: Callistus
Did you miss the bit where Oveur said level 5s and up will be 0.4 and below only?


im going by what was written in the dev blog and responded. if it was asked before if the cap ships were being deployed in low sec and 0.0 then i missed it. was just responding with my views on the issues i feel need addressing

From the dev blog:
Quote:
Levels 5 and up are all in 0.4 security and below.

Quote:
Levels 5 and 6 will be open to certain capital ship classes (possibly all, including those moved from 4 to 5)

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:32:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Par''Gellen on 22/02/2007 14:31:53
Originally by: Callistus
Originally by: Par'Gellen

The only thing they can realistically do to move people into lower sec space it to get rid of the ganktards that fill it.

Risk vs reward. Currently I'd argue that the rewards of low sec aren't worth the risk that the player pirates pose. CCP, rightly so, believe that to fix this they need to increase the rewards of low sec, hence the introduction of higher level missions only avaliable there. I'd be all for increasing the difficulty of belt npcs in low sec as well to move people into the belts, but thats a slightly different topic.

You, on the other hand want to balance it in the other direction by reducing the risks in low sec. Now which one of these options fits with CCP's vision of a "PVP focused" game? If you want risk-free profit, stay in high sec. If you want better profits grow some balls and take some risks.
PvP is great. I have nothing against PvP at all! The problem lies in the combat mechanics. Here is the only real problem and if CCP can't see this then they need some glasses for that "vision" of theirs because it ain't what I'd call 20/20:

Eve basically has three main types of combat players.
  • "Combat PvP" - Enjoys engaging in combat with other "Combat PvP" types.
  • "Combat PvE" - Enjoys engaging in combat with NPC's.
  • "Gank PvP" - Enjoys engaging in combat with "Combat PvE"s that are usually unable to defend themselves (PvE or mining tank fitted ship).
Now, as you can see, the real problem are the "Gank PvP"s.
  • "Combat PvP" on "Combat PvP" = No problem. PEW PEW PEW! Everyone's happy!
  • "Combat PvP" on "Gank PvP" = No problem. PEW PEW PEW! Everyone's happy!
  • "Combat PvE" on "NPC" = No problem. PEW PEW PEW! Everyone's happy except the NPC's but they aren't real and pay no subs so who cares?
  • "Gank PvP" on "Combat PvE" = Big problem. "Combat PvE" is very unhappy. "Gank PvP" is happy. Canceled subs. Much forum whining/gloating.
Solution: Make things harder on the "Gank PvP" types so that they aren't really the one's profiting at virtually no risk to themselves. Not to mention ****ing off paying customers.

PvP has it's place. Ganking however belongs nowhere.

Skiara Bloodwall
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:33:00 - [178]
 

I dont like that the bounties are going away... mission running tax is important to the income of small corps.
What if corps could put their LPs into a single corp account?

Primus Remors
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:34:00 - [179]
 

Forgot to add that LP pool will make it harder if not impossible to get some of the needed low LP offers such as starbase charters. And as such the idea should not be implemented automaticly. A pool of LP that you could transfer the LP you want sounds alot better idea though.

Porthos Cudlar
Federation Scrap Dealers
Posted - 2007.02.22 14:39:00 - [180]
 

All changes sound good but as mentioned several times already please make the npcs have a chance to switch targets when new ships come into the space. This is the only big problem with getting jumped in a mission. I'll happily take my chances against pirate(s) and a share of the mission rats if he has to take his chances against me and a share of them as well. Thanks.


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