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Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.02.22 05:50:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Maeltstome on 22/02/2007 05:47:47
Originally by: Storm Mage
Why not as an alternative allow carriers (not motherships) and dreadnaughts in space up to say .8 with some low level 5-6 agents sprinkled around in higher sec systems for us more casual players with rather limited budgets.


You are completely missing the point of all the changes.

Originally by: Storm Mage
Another thing I would recommend is toning down system scanning, or having someway to prevent pirates from finding people in missions/allowing them into mission areas, the second of these options being more viable. If a pirate finds the mission area but can't enter it because he isn't in the gang that the mission runner is in, it still leaves probing as a viable option but protects mission runners who don't want to deal with pirates. Some people don't like being forced into possible PvP just to make money to get by.


I physically sighed when i read that. Well done.

Engelious Angelion
Minmatar
Squishy Force
Posted - 2007.02.22 05:51:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Engelious Angelion on 22/02/2007 05:54:57
all i can say is, im happy that im not dependand on level 4 missions anymore, course the changes you mention here dosnt excatly sound all that great isk wise.

Well im not reliant on lvl 4's or 3's anymore, have been, but i must admidt that the level 4 missions as is, holds far from the rewards of 0.0, and the 0.0 complexes, so what your going to do is make all 0.0 inhabitants the rich kids, and all the empire solo players struggel to keep up, as well as the empire pvp ppl, and empire alliances...

But hey, its all good... more targets wen i go pirate! Very Happy

Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.02.22 05:54:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Engelious Angelion
all i can say is, im happy that im not dependand on level 4 missions anymore, course the changes you mention here dosnt excatly sound all that great isk wise.


Originally by: Oveur
We're very aware of ISK inflation and this is a step in preventing that.


Maybe read the blog?

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2007.02.22 06:11:00 - [94]
 

all for it

* no bounties? humm k - with pre-rev 1.3 loot tables plz?
* LP pool? heck, yes!
* LP store? heck, yes!
* big agents in low sec? certainly
* +7 imp storyline rewards? o_O

* previous "more NPC for the ship"? more of a pvp simulation than these days

but then again - still a vague concept. plz don't overdo it [i.e. replacing useful (not saying profitable) stuff - see contract system]

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.02.22 06:31:00 - [95]
 

Addin new higher level agents is quite good idea. Putting them all into low sec might help also IF they are not clustered together somewhere and are more or less evenly distributed.

Moving some 'harder' missions from level 4 to level 5 is however bad idea. We dont need another 'high sec nerf', but unique content in low sec. If high sec gets nerfed to oblivion and low sec is still just better rewards than high sec but lower than 0.0, then I would just skip the low sec zoo and go straight for 0.0. Or quit if 0.0 is really not my thing and I have to grind too mutch for toys I want after nerfbat visit.

Viashivan
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.22 06:34:00 - [96]
 

I really appriciate this blog but ever since Agents got introduced I felt that the pirate-agents (e.g. Sanchas) were quite a bit disadvantaged. Especially when it came down to rewads for loyality points the empire agentrunners were much better off as they got for example modules as well.

I hope that once this new "agent overhaul" (wasn't ths a slogen some years ago too?) is done, the gap between empire agentrunners and pirate faction runners won't be as big as it is now.

Via

LittleBar
Posted - 2007.02.22 06:39:00 - [97]
 

I play EVE to run missions. I like to pretend that I am making some kind of difference in Empire politics. I do not EVER go into low space. I do not enjoy pvp and do not want to play that way. If CCP decided they don't want me to play I wish they had made that clear a year and 1/2 ago so I would not have wasted so much money and time. I feel rather cheated as though there efforts to lure me in with COSMOS missions was just a set up to turn me into Pirate bait. I have just canceled my 2 secondary accounts. I will keep my primary till I see how this turns out.

Lucio
Gallente
Prosta Toots
Posted - 2007.02.22 06:46:00 - [98]
 

I'm not a fan of these changes either, because TBH, there is no effective counter to low-sec pirates.

They don't care about ship losses
They don't care about their sec status
They don't care about what rewards they're getting because they're mostly interested in blowing stuff up for a laugh.

What can you hold over them to make them go away? Nothing!


I fail to see how pushing more players into the hands of these scum is good game design? At least with 0.0 space you can fight back, if you do that in low-sec you risk being suckered into loosing sec status or being targeted by sentry drones?

To my mind, a better choice would be to eliminate the "low-sec" grey areas and simply have Empire/Non-Empire space, either you're 1.0 space or you're in 0.0 space.

Zilkin
Amarr
Posted - 2007.02.22 06:53:00 - [99]
 

Here´s my 2 cents.

IMO if your introducing capital ship using NPC´s in level 4 missions it would make sense for them to be only available in 0.4 and lower security space.

Also make the highest mission level, whatever you choose it will be, only available in 0.0 by making players able to hire NPC agents to work in the playerbuild stations so they would give you their services but you would need to pay some monthly fee to keep them there. This system should be also available for agents lvl 4 and above.

Essyl Moss
Caldari
M. Corp
Posted - 2007.02.22 07:03:00 - [100]
 

The shape of the 0.0 pipes allows for plenty of advance notice for ratters/miners and others gaining isk to get to safety, change to a pvp ship, and to meet an enemy incursion. This means players looking for a pvp engagement, get one, and random one-sided ganks are the business of login recons.

Low sec space rarely has defined routes of entrance. Your warning comes the moment a possible hostile enters the system. Even with eyes on the gates, almost nothing will or can slow a hostile from moving between the gate to belt/deadspace to get an easy gank. This almost guarantees that pvp will be one-sided and frustrating.

If you want to populate low sec, make it more defendable. Right now, low sec has a considerably higher risk and lower reward than almost any 0.0 area, and this leads to the reduced population.

Minerva Radisky
Caldari
The Arcanum
Posted - 2007.02.22 07:12:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Minerva Radisky on 22/02/2007 07:12:34
Originally by: Lucio

I fail to see how pushing more players into the hands of these scum is good game design? At least with 0.0 space you can fight back, if you do that in low-sec you risk being suckered into loosing sec status or being targeted by sentry drones?

To my mind, a better choice would be to eliminate the "low-sec" grey areas and simply have Empire/Non-Empire space, either you're 1.0 space or you're in 0.0 space.


I wonder if that would work.

Just make the current 0.1-0.4 areas become 0.0, with no concord protection, but make it so the areas are still under that empire's sov. This way not much would change for the current lowsec pirates, but now you could get the same ores/rats as alliance members (albeit at higher risk) without needing to worry about all the alliance politics and getting recruited and what not.

Originally by: Essyl Moss

If you want to populate low sec, make it more defendable. Right now, low sec has a considerably higher risk and lower reward than almost any 0.0 area, and this leads to the reduced population.


Agreed. Maybe if Concord sent a ship to help defend you? Just a cruiser or something. Of course, that could screw over solo PvPers, but I just don't see how someone can fit to solo a mission and still fend off PvPers by themselves. Unless they're expecting level 5s and 6s to be pretty much only doable with friends, but if that's true, why put some of the current level 4s with the new level 5s? Mad

Hari Sel'don
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.02.22 07:45:00 - [102]
 

No. NO!

Please leave LvL 4 missions alone. For christ sake!

I've had three accounts since day of release. For almost the first three years i played the pvp non carebear game, all roles, all genres. I played probably 60 hours a week. I've loved this game forever.

Now i'm lucky if i get 5 to 10 hours a week. I don't have the time necessary to dedicate to a corp and the pvp grind. And it is a grind. Even the fun is no longer apparent these days. How many whine threads are generated by pvp'rs? Your game cannot cope with the content you have implemented. The LV/Coalition titan lag debacle prime example.

I now play eve to relax and have fun. You nerf this and as so many have already said you make scordite mining the most profitable empire enterprise. WTF are you doing to this great game?

Honestly i just don't get it? How many players total are involved in pvp alliance/0.0 warfare and how many sit in empire and pve? Give us the true stats on that please, i'd love to know.

No point in making idle silly threats about leaving the game. This question has occurred to me repeatedly in the last 2 years and i'm still here. But you are approaching a real crunch point soon and something has to give.

Too angry and busy throwing my toys from the pram to write coherently. Mad


Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2007.02.22 07:51:00 - [103]
 

This all sounds good on paper. However, if you are really just trying to force people that want no part of shooting each other into doing so then you are simply implementing a way to lower your subscription count. Keep in mind your own statement that "PvP" is not limited to player combat or this initiative will fail miserably.

Not all of us are psychopaths...

Tammarr
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:10:00 - [104]
 

Does "Hell Yeah!" qualify as feedback?

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:10:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Various People
I am a mission *****, I do not want PvP, lowsec, nulsec, or anything else
You are playing the wrong game. If you still don't believe this, read the blog again. Move along plz, kthxbye.

Yes, CCP have a vision of a largely PvP game, yes CCP are going to force it on you because this is their game, and yes they do put their vision of what Eve should be before pure business thoughts, otherwise they would just make a sharded WoW in space and get rich.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:14:00 - [106]
 

Looks great - especially the group thing with missions...

If you stop the isk rewards (or at least limit it alot) can we then get those missions to have timeframes longer than 1 week (to support the casual players having perhaps 1-2 hours max every day) and having partial goals completed not respawning (to make the time frame easier to accomplish)?

How will you build up the group sharing thing?

Will the missions be built up like this?:
1: destroy a pirate lookout post in system X
2: find an old ruined structure in system X, Y or Z and bring back object A (Optional)
3: transport object A to a certain system and bring back object B (optional)
4: defend a navy structure from the pirates striking back (perhaps depending how you do in part 1)
5: Destroy the remaining pirate reserves and scattered forces.

Will these missions be 1 mission with part missions listed from start or coming up when you complete other part missions?
Or will it be like a story line with 5 seperate missions?

Let's say I would like to do part 1 alone or with a friend or two - should I assign them on a roostersheet for doing the mission or will the part mission register when they participate with me?
Do I have to participate in every part OR can I outsource it (and make the mission bookmarks available to the people I'm assigning the submissions).
Especially if the stuff involves mini-professions that I cannot or do not want to handle myself it would be a pain to actually sit with a friend a few hours to find a hidden place like part 2 or will I then just have to forget about it? Will others be able to find my mission object long time before me and steal it?

I suggest that you could perhaps make a rooster for each part mission (listing the players you want to share with) and these people should automatically be able to see bookmarks from agents and the mission objectives...
Responsibility is on the player getting the mission unless you can let those listed players accept the responsibility...

A mission like this could implement LP on most missions, and perhaps bounties on most ships in tha last part mission (5) and perhaps certain keyships in part mission 1 and 4.

Just a few opinions, suggestions and questions. I like this idea and especially the more challenging missions and fewer but stronger ships (perhaps simulating PvP combat a bit more)

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:23:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Various People
I am a mission *****, I do not want PvP, lowsec, nulsec, or anything else
You are playing the wrong game. If you still don't believe this, read the blog again. Move along plz, kthxbye.

Yes, CCP have a vision of a largely PvP game, yes CCP are going to force it on you because this is their game, and yes they do put their vision of what Eve should be before pure business thoughts, otherwise they would just make a sharded WoW in space and get rich.
Industrial/Market PvP is great! I love it and do it every day! However, shooting other people does nothing for me. It's boring and pointless. I would actually rather hire a guy to kick me in the nuts all day long. It would be more fun.

realbadman
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:32:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: realbadman on 22/02/2007 08:58:57
Edited by: realbadman on 22/02/2007 08:56:05
disclaimer: I have 3 accounts, 1 miner, 1 mission runner, and 1 pirate. Well, since I have never actually collected a ransom, I would have to be a sociopathic serial killer instead of a pirate. This is an alt.

Quote:
New missions in Levels 4 and up will focus on the escalating warfare between the Empires and factions. This incidentally enables you to engage Dreadnoughts, Carriers and Motherships.

Sounds great!
Quote:
Levels 5 and up are all in 0.4 security and below. Levels 5 and 6 will be open to certain capital ship classes (possibly all, including those moved from 4 to 5)

My pirate is wildly cheering. Why? I get to hunt big game carebear.
My miner is wildly cheering. Why? Because tritanium is trading at never before seen prices.
My mission runner is going 'so what'. Why? I might risk a drake to run some low sec level 4's but there's no way i'm gonna risk my 500mill raven. Now I have to risk a multi billion isk cap ship? hehe, no chance.
Quote:
The majority of these new missions will not have ISK bounties on NPCs

And this is incentive to get my mission runner to go into harms way? Uhhh, sure
Quote:
You would now earn Loyalty Points on the corporate level

Dumb question, but do I get lp or my corp? Or both? I would hope both, because i'm already earning 0 isk. Assuming I go solo of course. Now, realistically I wouldn't be doing these missions alone. So now not only do I get to risk my 1.7 billion isk carrier, which may or may not get popped before I even get to talk to my agent, but my corpmates get to as well.
Quote:
New missions can utilize "Escalating Paths", random bonus encounters, optional encounters, Exploration and Mini-professions to further expand reward abilities.

All of that is great! I want it and I want it now.
Quote:
Mission rewards can be split among a group

Again, great! Of course, I can't imagine what kind of mission rewards there will be considering me and my mates will also be splitting the 0 isk we earn by dodging big game hunters and popping big game rats.

I guess that what I am trying to say is, I want to go to low sec and do awesome missions. Hell, I want to go right now and do level 4's. But, I understand that if I spend any serious amount of time there, I will eventually lose ships. I've live in high and low sec atm and to think otherwise is just silly. I've also lived in 0.0 and been a part of some alliances but I don't like indentured servitude in real life or games. If I can justify the risk for the reward, I'll go and life will be grand. If I can't, then you just beat the crap out of one of my accounts.

I have to assume I will lose 1.7bill worth of ship and fittings every so often. I also have to assume that if I play the game well I should be able to make enough isk to cover those losses plus some. Please explain to me better than you have how that is supposed to happen.

Sharcy
Sonnema
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:32:00 - [109]
 

I love it, more = better.

Only comment I can think of is that "dumbing down" lvl4's is not needed IMO. Otherwise, the step-up from 4 to 5 would be even larger than 3 to 4 is now (because of the added risk of low-sec).

fra
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:46:00 - [110]
 

I hope they won't forgot players doing Courier and Trade missions only. My agents nearly never offers me Encouter missions and that's how I like it.

Sheriff Badden
Amarr
Legion Federation
Amen Anera
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:47:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Sheriff Badden on 22/02/2007 09:05:20
Originally by: Agillious
Responding to the poster that discussed Agent rewards, mission gear as rewards, and its impact on the player market:
Look at the current T2 market for examples on why (i think) it is bad to have a completely closed economic system in a video game.

To me, placing the entire production of T1 and T2 items in player hands only opens the market for abuse. As an example, look at the T2 cartels that currently exist. They have monopolies on T2 BPO's and use that monopoly to set prices. Prices, that are (again, in my opinion) too high for the module. An NPC outlet for luxury items helps price check the player market.


I was on the verge of whining, but if I can get t2 stuff from agents without having to do 10000 missions to get an offer, then I totally agree with the changes.Smile

Originally by: Galimiy Portret
The problem with low sec is that people do not want to lose anything to any pirates, be it players or non-players. I do not do agent running (even if I actually want to try it), but I still I hate to see things that I worked hard for getting blown up for fun. I think a solution to low sec would be to make the reward worth all the risk AND loss. If the profits could be so high that losing a CNR or two a week wouldn't hurt, then I think low sec would get more populated.


I totally agree, mission rewards for low sec missions will need to be huge.

Galimiy Portret
Exploration Inc.
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:52:00 - [112]
 

The problem with low sec is that people do not want to lose anything to any pirates, be it players or non-players. I do not do agent running (even if I actually want to try it), but I still I hate to see things that I worked hard for getting blown up for fun. I think a solution to low sec would be to make the reward worth all the risk AND loss. If the profits could be so high that losing a CNR or two a week wouldn't hurt, then I think low sec would get more populated.

MELEK ICO
Posted - 2007.02.22 08:58:00 - [113]
 

Here is what i think

Nerfing lvl4 missions is not the right thing tell me one mission that you cant do in a t2 fitted raven. There are non if you know how to do them and you know what skills you need to become a mission runner you will have no problems. If you have problems with the current lvl4 missions go and do lvl3, like i did before i learned how to do lvl4. I know that i have faction CNR and all that now but i didnt have it all the time and I go to 04 and bellow systems to do lvl4 missions in my normal t2 fitted raven and i still have no problems with them. Nerfing lvl4 missions like that will be the worst thing ccp would do. Too many ppl would just quit the game its as simple as that.

I like the idea of having lvl5 and higher agents in low sec finally i will use my Carrier which i am gonna fly for the first time for something good and i would love it if lvl5 missions would need lets say a carrier to tank, and maybe 2 or so BS, BC, HAC to help out in killing the rats.

I take a huge risk doing missions in 00 and 04 systems and if you nerf lvl4 missions you will leave a huge gap in the mission system. Why are we going the way of making things easy for the noobs. Hell we where all noobs once i worked my ass of both in high and low sec to get my CNR so i can solo all lvl4 missions why should it be any easier for anyone else. I hate the nerfing thing its killing the game. Every patch or expansion we are waiting for a new nerf to this and that. You work to get some mods, ships or new skills to use something just to finde out that its been nerfed in the next patch, that really sucks.

So the final word is leave lvl4 as they are ppl that get killed in Zor mission the first time they try it are simplly not ready for lvl4 missions. Finally the story of ppl with 4 mil sp and a raven will dissapier that they can solo lvl4 missions easy cos they cant. Train and practice on lvl3 missions than try a lvl4.

For lvl5 missions make then 2 times harder than lvl4 and dont move the current "HARD" lvl4 missions to lvl5. Let ppl use carriers in lvl5 missions so we get to practice in using them than a small alliance like i am in will move faster towards 00 space and all that as well.

LVL6 and 7 make it a mission that needs a bigger corp/gang to do it that way everyone stays happy, and needless to say lvl5,6 and 7 should be in low sec but plz leave the current lvl4 missions unchanged.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.02.22 09:06:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Frug on 22/02/2007 09:06:18
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes and yes.

Less inclination to complex farm is a total bonus.

However... With the new character creation system, and with inflation what it is, the level 1 missions need to be scrapped. They're far too easy, too tedious, can turn new players off of the game because it takes too long to get past them, and pay practically nothing.

Kids these days start with 400k LP. The level 1's don't make sense no more.

Adam C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.02.22 09:10:00 - [115]
 

i always consider new agent missions should be intergrated into a player corporation structure. (ie set by corporation directors thus making them truely group orrianted*.)


Potvora Oskliva
AquariusArt
Posted - 2007.02.22 09:15:00 - [116]
 

Ok rephrasing the blog for those getting lost in long blocks of text:

We decided to screw up (read balance) the mission system and give piwates more targets to shoot at... Rolling Eyes

roBurky
StateCorp
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.02.22 09:25:00 - [117]
 

This is all nice and stuff, for those that are already doing missions. But it doesn't help me get into the thing.

I'd quite like something to be done so I didn't have to grind through level 1 agents for weeks to get to something worth my time. It would be nice if mission running was possible without being a dedicated mission runner tied to one region of space.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.02.22 09:40:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Frug on 22/02/2007 09:37:08
Originally by: roBurky
This is all nice and stuff, for those that are already doing missions. But it doesn't help me get into the thing.

I'd quite like something to be done so I didn't have to grind through level 1 agents for weeks to get to something worth my time. It would be nice if mission running was possible without being a dedicated mission runner tied to one region of space.


I must agree. As in my previous post. The level 1's are just silly. You grind and grind for pitiful pay, lp, and standings through missions so easy it makes a mockery of the rats. I've trained a few newbies and they're all left in disbelief at how many more single-missile-hit pocket change rats they have to kill to get anywhere.

They're flying caracals and still stuck doing those missions.

Back in my day things were different. We started with god knows how little SP. We had to fly uphill both ways through the snow. But things are different now.

Sinder Ohm
Demonic Corp
G00DFELLAS
Posted - 2007.02.22 09:43:00 - [119]
 

Firsty WOW Shocked

Me likes Very Happy

Now to my thaughts:

Lvl 1 - 3: should have some bounties to help the new guys out.

Lvl 4: they should still be challenging and not dumbed down to much please. If they do escalate it would still be a playground for players that enjoy flying thier pimped out faction bs with faction fittings.

Lvl 5: Going low sec ? no problems here Smile would be great to have another use for cap ships other than breaking POS. (moros is fine btw dont need a nerfRazz)
but then again if lvl 5 is suposed to be like a hard lvl 4 maybe a cap ship is overkill, make the realy tough cap ship missions lvl 6 only.

lvl 6: same as 5 but much harderTwisted Evil and possably only in 0.1 and 0.0?

Lvl 7: \O/ WOOT 0.0 only and it would be nice if we could somehow hire Agents to live/work at our Outposts.

I like the LP shop idea very much!

Kaptein Trefot
Calista Industries
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2007.02.22 10:02:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 22/02/2007 09:59:49
Originally by: Galimiy Portret
The problem with low sec is that people do not want to lose anything to any pirates, be it players or non-players. I do not do agent running (even if I actually want to try it), but I still I hate to see things that I worked hard for getting blown up for fun. I think a solution to low sec would be to make the reward worth all the risk AND loss. If the profits could be so high that losing a CNR or two a week wouldn't hurt, then I think low sec would get more populated.


The problem with a major boost to low sec rewards is that it will just work as a tech II lottery equivalent. Large alliances will be able to move 150-200 chars into a low sec system and more or less controlling it removing any real threats. Than we have a large unit of alliance mission-runners who all make 2-4b a week with relatively little risk.

Btw if isk rewards and bounties are removed where are ppl going to get isk from? Use a copy machine?


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