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Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.02.21 09:02:00 - [1]
 

I've seen a lot of posts where folks have asked about an alternative to the normal stargate method of travel.

It is obvious that the technology exists for ships to jump on their own ( capitol ships do it)

I was thinking perhaps a new line of Rigs could be introduced. These would be Jump Rigs. There would be one for each of the different non Cap size ship classes like there are for ABs and MWDs.

They would of course require the uses to have Jump Drive Operation. This should be checked each time it is activated to make sure the operator can actually Jump or not.

They would take fuel like the Capital ships (smaller amounts corresponding to ship size of course)

They would still require a cynofield in order to jump.

They should take a large amount of calibration, 200 or 300 I'd think.

I think this would be a nice idea. I hope others will see it as a good idea even if its never introduced.

What it would allow:

1. It would allow folks to avoid the chokepoints allowing more folks into 0.0. (Note that the cyno ship will have to already be in place and thus have to still go through the chokepoints)

2. It would offer a way for folks to avoid warp bubbles which currently have no effective in game means to avoid.....other than the logoff and that's kinda lame.

3. It would offer new strategic and tactical opportunities to fleet commanders.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.02.21 17:00:00 - [2]
 

30 reads and no replys :(

Surely someone has an opinion :)

Jangus McGee
Caldari
Posted - 2007.02.21 17:05:00 - [3]
 

Not a rig, but a module. That would be better.

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2007.02.21 17:08:00 - [4]
 

i like the rig idea but the module would have to take up alot of pg and cpu then

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.02.21 17:08:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Eleana Tomelac on 21/02/2007 17:05:57
A rig is too easy.
Or it would need to have serious drawback or it will just be the perfect anti-gatecamp item and you keep your full combat (or cargohold for an industrial) capacity.

I think more of a module, with high CPU requirements, something that would hurt in a combat fit. It could raise the required CPU of every other modules (so you can fit on a frigate with light equipement and on a battleship with some equipement, but not have high CPU battleships always equip this!).

Is should not make jumps too easy.

Edit :
It could lower your cap like a mwd and many other stats. But it's really not a rig, look at how the rigs are described, a jumpdrive is a module.

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2007.02.21 19:41:00 - [6]
 

I forgot about how hard it is to swap around rigs right now as they act like implants, which we need to be able to remove -hint hint-. The restiction while not in use as a module should be like a MWD for the cap, but also some restrion to signal strength, lock range maybe even 10-20% slower reaction for other modules, as in longer for rate of fire, missile launch, even repair and speed.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.02.22 07:05:00 - [7]
 

The main drawback in my original thought was that you'd have to use cargospace to haul the fuel. After all that means less ammo and less loot space.

I suppose if it needed another drawback on top of that I think a signature radius drawback would be the best. The Jump Rig making it easier to spot to sensors :).

I think a Rig would be better used rather than a module. In a module you have the danger of making it practically impossible for any combat ship to use, especially if it is high cpu/pg fitting.

The Jump itself would still use cap in accordance with jump drive operation rules.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.02.24 08:24:00 - [8]
 

Anymore thoughts?

Elenit
Posted - 2007.02.24 11:26:00 - [9]
 

Capital ships, like gates are huge and big enough to contain a jump drive.
Modules & rigs are tiny.

Does not compute.

I've been mulling over & participating in some of the debates on allowing jump drives in standard ships. I agree that something needs to be done - but I don't think it should be via a rig or ship module. Capital ships can jump without needing a module - because it's built into the ship itself (did I mention that are big? Ok - except the chimera which is smaller than most rookie ships but you get the idea).

The best solution I've seen so far is for an anchorable module. It comes in different sizes with different ranges (it also comes in different colours for the ladies).

1) It has a volume - think 1000m3 or so. It requires anchoring - 30mins.
2) It requires fuel or powering (energy transfer?)
3) It opens a 2 way tunnel - keep it balanced and allow for a rapid response by the other side.
4) It doesn't require a cyno at the other end (the lifetime, distance, size are based on skills and power)
5) The end points for the tunnel are objects with a high gravity - such as the sun, planets or moons

Maybe you have to anchor them near gates - and somehow are able to hook into the gravity well the gate generates.

It would allow for a far more ad-hoc, dyamic approach to battle than is available currently.

It requires planning and infrastructure to operate. Hauling the thing to the right place (range), getting the support ships in (new role for logistics ships for energy transfer) and setting up the fleet.


Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.02.25 06:25:00 - [10]
 

Technology advances :), one thing that is common thus far is technological advances is miniaturization :). Thus even though thus far we have only Capital ships that jump, in time other ships would jump to :), perhaps they have smaller ranges.

Your idea seems interesting :). However your idea probably would be limited to large alliances/large corps. We need to give better access to the smaller corps/smaller alliances so that more will enter 0.0 as some want. Until their is a cheap method for them to do so in a way that they can avoid the bottlenecks sufficiently to make it worth their investment we aren't going to see any mass exodus.

Keep in mind that the jump drives on the capitals are also immense because of the size and mass of the ships they are moving. Smaller ships would take smaller jumpdrives :).

I think rig is better than module because they are not easily removed from the ship and don't take cpu/pg which means they are equally useful to noncombat ships ( like barges, industrials, transports and exhumers) as well as combat ships (pretty much anything else).

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2007.02.25 15:18:00 - [11]
 

ok that at first make it only able to be done by BS from how much CU and PG is needed to use the module

Airiek
Gallente
RABBLE-RABBLE
Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2007.02.25 15:47:00 - [12]
 

I think another idea could be to have a gang jump ship, which would require leadership to level 5 as well as jump drive operation, basically its a ship with the sole purpose of creating a portal to another system, it would work something like a jump bridge array, but it creates a bubble which jumps everything in its area of effect, and as a drawback, the ship is vunerable to attack. But maybe the ship can also anchor and act as a shield or something of that sort. so that it isnt limited to just jumping, it could be a gang assist ship, which can preform certain gang assist tasks such as gang cloaking, gang shield, and gang jump.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.02.26 11:33:00 - [13]
 

Yes when I had thought about this I had thought a jumpship idea would be another way to go. I kinda liked the rig idea more because it would put the power in more players hands.

A Jumpship would have to be probably fairly fragile, like industrial/barge fragile. It couldn't be able to defend itself well. It would be an extremely specialized ship. But it is another option.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.02.28 10:17:00 - [14]
 

/bump for more comments :)

guardimin1
Posted - 2007.02.28 13:32:00 - [15]
 

anchorable module

thinking on that may by a pos structure or a structure that a player can anchor at a planet, moon or sun
-----------------------------------------
pos to pos
or
system moon,planet,sun to another system moon,planet,sun
------------------------------------------
the cost depend on the range
the work like a gate a bit more

this can be handy for small corps
example
A corp. can jump from empire space directly into 0.0 space whit this

sorry for my bad Englisch

phillip duncan
Posted - 2007.02.28 14:07:00 - [16]
 

If the rig disrupted the normal jump gate squance so it was game or jump drive not both with the same level percentage level of cap needed (in effect turn them into mini capital ships for travel). So you have a ship that can jump but never enter high sec again

Thinking about it would make more sense to require mutiple rigs and a module. The rigs to the prep work, like fuel to power converter, navigational subsystem enhancements (for plotting the jump) and a smaller jump mod that you active to travel (otherwise how will you trigger the jump?).

So to get jump capacity you loss 2 rig slots and a module slot and if you swap out the module for combat fitting you better hope you do not need to retreet out of system.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.01 07:51:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: guardimin1
anchorable module

thinking on that may by a pos structure or a structure that a player can anchor at a planet, moon or sun
-----------------------------------------
pos to pos
or
system moon,planet,sun to another system moon,planet,sun
------------------------------------------
the cost depend on the range
the work like a gate a bit more

this can be handy for small corps
example
A corp. can jump from empire space directly into 0.0 space whit this

sorry for my bad Englisch


Cost is the problem here, you are suggesting basically a stargate, and I just don't see them allowing player owned stargates that are cheap enough to allow the kind of access to 0.0 that is needed in order to relieve pressure on the Empire nodes.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.01 07:55:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: phillip duncan
If the rig disrupted the normal jump gate squance so it was game or jump drive not both with the same level percentage level of cap needed (in effect turn them into mini capital ships for travel). So you have a ship that can jump but never enter high sec again

Thinking about it would make more sense to require mutiple rigs and a module. The rigs to the prep work, like fuel to power converter, navigational subsystem enhancements (for plotting the jump) and a smaller jump mod that you active to travel (otherwise how will you trigger the jump?).

So to get jump capacity you loss 2 rig slots and a module slot and if you swap out the module for combat fitting you better hope you do not need to retreet out of system.


I thought the reason Capitals can't use Stargates was their size. In essence there are different size stargates, after all some missions and deadspaces have ship size restrictions. The stargates commonly available cannot handle ships beyond a Battleship size. That's not say that Super Stargates don't exist or couldn't exist.

Your method though might be useful I was going for using as many calibration points as possible. In essence under my suggestion a tech 2 ship couldn't even mount another rig.

I don't feel that the ship should sacrifice a module slot just to get the rig to work, the increase in signature radius and devotion of cargo space to fuel are enough of a drawback. (Note 0.0 defensive fleets wouldn't necessarily need a jump rig so they could use more offensive or defensive rigs...)

Thus though using 2 rigs might be usuable its just as easy to make it just one rig and take high calibration.

I don't see any reason to keep them from using stargates though, they could use both, but yes the idea was to use cap around 75% to jump, and it would still require a cynosural field to jump using its jumpdrive.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.16 05:26:00 - [19]
 

Anymore thoughts?


Zenobite
The Red Exhilez
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
Posted - 2007.03.16 14:41:00 - [20]
 

One problem I could see with this is that ships like domi are not going to be hurt much by the penaltys (they would loss some nos or enegy newts) but they would still have all there drones so damage would be the same.

Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
G00DFELLAS
Posted - 2007.03.16 22:13:00 - [21]
 

I like the idea and have some things to add:

make it a combination of rig & modules.

rig would require 400calibration (yes, no other rigs and not for t2 ships! those things REALLY change your ships systhems and t2 is to complicated to modify).

the rig reduces the cpu need of jump arrays by 99%.

jump arrays would come in 5 flavors.
frig, destroyer, cruiser, battlecruiser and bs.
rigs would only be ONE (to not make frigs to cheap!).

jump array would be a high slot module that can be fired on a friendly cyano field just like a capital jump. base range of this module would be 0.0 LY.

there would be a med slot module to increase jumprange by 1 LY and a low slot module which has to be loaded with fuel. each lowslot module would carry enough fuel for 1 LY. those modules can be loaded from cargo and only hold fuel.


what this would do:
ship gets jumprange of X LY by sacrifying: all rigs, 1 highslot X medslots, x lowslots and a lot of powergrid & cpu.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.17 06:07:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Zenobite
One problem I could see with this is that ships like domi are not going to be hurt much by the penaltys (they would loss some nos or enegy newts) but they would still have all there drones so damage would be the same.


Hmm I'm not getting how a Domi would be less advantaged than anything else.

I mean you still have to have fuel in your cargo space, that makes less room for loot.

You still have the signature radius increase I suggested.

The Domi still would only be able to mount maybe 1 or 2 other rigs at most just like any other ship.

Under my proposal I just don't see how it has more advantage than any other ship...

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.17 06:17:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
I like the idea and have some things to add:

make it a combination of rig & modules.

rig would require 400calibration (yes, no other rigs and not for t2 ships! those things REALLY change your ships systhems and t2 is to complicated to modify).

the rig reduces the cpu need of jump arrays by 99%.

jump arrays would come in 5 flavors.
frig, destroyer, cruiser, battlecruiser and bs.
rigs would only be ONE (to not make frigs to cheap!).

jump array would be a high slot module that can be fired on a friendly cyano field just like a capital jump. base range of this module would be 0.0 LY.

there would be a med slot module to increase jumprange by 1 LY and a low slot module which has to be loaded with fuel. each lowslot module would carry enough fuel for 1 LY. those modules can be loaded from cargo and only hold fuel.


what this would do:
ship gets jumprange of X LY by sacrifying: all rigs, 1 highslot X medslots, x lowslots and a lot of powergrid & cpu.


This counter-proposal of yours makes it practically worthless.

There is no need to have it take rig slots and module slots. That basically makes the ship useless for ratting, mining, or anything else.

Under your proposal a Barge couldn't jump and still mine.

Also why should t2 ships not be able to be modified to jump, that makes no sense either. They are basically the same hull, with strengthened materials, newer shielding, and newer electronics.

I can see 200 calibration or 250 calibration, but we shouldn't go higher than that.

Keep in mind it still increases your signature radius, meaning that some of the t2 ships would lose their normal bonus....interceptors and assault frigates for example.

You still have to give cargo hold space to fuel, cutting down on space for ore, ammo, loot etc.

You still have to have another ship present that can create a cyno field for you to jump to in the target system.

That's already some pretty heavy limitations. It means you would be less effective in most jobs than if you used the stargates. However it gives a way to open up 0.0 to more folks, allowing perhaps more to partake of it.

Now you could perhaps have some modules or other rigs besides the basic jump rig that could increase range or decrease fuel consumption. You could also introduce a module that does that however if you introduce them keep in mind folks will put them on Capitals as well.

My goal is to have something introduced that can increase access to 0.0. Folks are always saying to many folks stay in Empire. The reason is the bottlenecks, which are often bubble camped such that the average EVE citizen can't get into 0.0 reliably.

The harder or more useless we make it the less folks that would ever use it, and thus the more meaningless it would become.

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.03.20 13:47:00 - [24]
 

I like this idea. Given the need to train to use the Jump Drives its not like everyone would end up with it quickly or easily.

The increased sig radius would also be dangerous, given the increasing popularity of Carriers one could easily be probed and killed.

I do think perhaps the rigs could be seperated roughly into some categories similar to ABs and MWDs.

Frigate size
Cruiser size
Battleship size

Each one would probably have a slight different range. Frigates having the least range, cruisers a bit more and battleships still having less than perhaps a Carrier or Dreadnought.

Anyway I think this is a good idea. The bottlenecks are only getting worse, and unless some means to avoid them is introduced EVE could stagnant in a few more months time with little movement of the empire populace to 0.0 and vice versa.

Nim9i5
Posted - 2007.03.22 00:44:00 - [25]
 

That takes out alot of strategy in choking off supply lines. Carriers and other cap ships are meant to be haulers either. This way you could lock down a pos without actually hvaing to attack it because it has no feul YARRRR!!

Sicks
Null State
Posted - 2007.03.22 02:35:00 - [26]
 

I like this idea as well, but i think it being a module or a rig has too many complications for it to be a practical application. How about an upgrade to cyno fields that allow any type of ship to pass through? You'd have to put the cyno up first, and then maybe a cool portable jump gate that fits around it. Downsides would be a decent amount of time to set it up and/or online it, and any ships who use it would need to have jump drive operation skills and say, a "Cyno Field Stabilizer" module to allow it survive the warp through a different type of jump. Also maybe have it have several parts, so you'd need a group of covops to set up the exit gate (if youre setting it up in enemy territory)

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.22 13:14:00 - [27]
 

I dont like the idea at all. You are eliminating a unique aspect of the game (exclusive to only cap ship pilots) and giving everyone a chance to become a mini cap ship. Everyone and their mother would train this skill just to navigate past gate camps.

With your idea, you have to take into consideration that you even suggested itd be a way to beat gate camps. Then what of the gate camps and hostile fleets? They will begin to complain that everyones jumping away from their camps.

I dont think that the entire eve population should be afforded the opportunity to turn their battlecruisers, battleships, haulers, and other ships that have no business jumping to cyno fields into mini caps. The cap ship pilots will no longer be of use for hauling ops to and from 0.0.

I am in no way flaming the OP, but I dont think that adding "personal jump drives" is something that would be productive for the game.

Kitiara Armitage
Gallente
Origin Synthetic Industries
Posted - 2007.03.22 13:24:00 - [28]
 

I like the idea as of post 7, keep it like that and /signed.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.23 06:34:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Nim9i5
That takes out alot of strategy in choking off supply lines. Carriers and other cap ships are meant to be haulers either. This way you could lock down a pos without actually hvaing to attack it because it has no feul YARRRR!!



I'm not entirely sure what you meant here. I am assuming you meant that Carriers and other cap ships aren't meant to be haulers either. Otherwise that sentence doesn't make sense and I would agree.

You could paralyze a POS, it would be harder perhaps but only slightly since so many are using Carriers. What this opens up is that folks might use less expensive ships to haul the fuel. Opening up the possibility of 0.0 to others. These lesser ships in turn could be prey for pirates, privateers, mercenaries, police forces, etc.

It opens up a lot more options.

Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
Posted - 2007.03.23 06:42:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Major Stallion
I dont like the idea at all. You are eliminating a unique aspect of the game (exclusive to only cap ship pilots) and giving everyone a chance to become a mini cap ship. Everyone and their mother would train this skill just to navigate past gate camps.

With your idea, you have to take into consideration that you even suggested itd be a way to beat gate camps. Then what of the gate camps and hostile fleets? They will begin to complain that everyones jumping away from their camps.

I dont think that the entire eve population should be afforded the opportunity to turn their battlecruisers, battleships, haulers, and other ships that have no business jumping to cyno fields into mini caps. The cap ship pilots will no longer be of use for hauling ops to and from 0.0.

I am in no way flaming the OP, but I dont think that adding "personal jump drives" is something that would be productive for the game.


Currently the biggest stranglehold keeping folks in Empire is warp bubbles. Currently there is no in game mechanism to escape them. Yes a small or medium one you might make it out of in a fast frigate, but how much can you do in 0.0 in a frigate?

This offers a way to avoid the bubblecamp if someone chooses to not only invest in the skills but also the rig. Most rigs go for 50 million or less, I suspect a jumprig would have to go for perhaps as much as 200 million, and certainly no less than 100 million.

It also makes no sense that you claim 30 systems and then only defend two or three. This would force you to defend your whole territory, not just one or two systems. You could chose not to patrol systems but of course you run the risk of folks jumping into the middle of your 'empire'.

It opens up the possibility of greater opportunities for gorilla tactics and hit and run attacks.

I see lots of folks saying that 0.0 is empty, until such a time that an easier egress is provided to it, it will remain empty and the Empire systems will continue to become more and more crowded. CCPs efforts of removing belts and such is not going to get more people into low sec or 0.0, all it will do is if enough are removed is that folks will leave the game as some do not consider it worth their effort to attempt to go into these areas, particularly true of casual players who probably make up at least a third of the subscriptions.

This is about offering more opportunities to all. Remember defense fleets in 0.0, don't necessarily need jumprigs as they are already there. They could use those calibration points and rig slot for something more useful. I'm sure they may have jump equipped fast response fleets to aid the less mobile defense fleets.

I just think this would open up more opportunities and get more folks into 0.0, which in turn would provide more targets for those that want it, while at the same time forcing those that claim sovereignty to do more than just slap up an unattended POS to claim it.


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