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CCP kieron

Posted - 2007.02.20 17:37:00 - [1]
 

The first in a short series of Blogs from the GM team to help the community understand some of the rules and policies that we must all abide by while participating in the EVE Community and to provide some insight into the day to day activities of the Customer Support team, Senior Game Master Nova has written a blog concerning one section of the End User License Agreement (EULA) and account information sharing.

Sharing is caring, unless it's account sharing. Check it out and please keep discussion on-topic.

Paddlefoot Aeon
SiN. Corp
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2007.02.20 18:10:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Paddlefoot Aeon on 20/02/2007 18:14:10
First (first ever time... yay!)

With the GM cue backed up the way it is, its a shame that account sharing takes up so much of their time. I know ppl who have had petitions pending for weeks, and gotten no response. Please post the characters who are guilty of sharing, and let the player base monitor itself... hopefully with the F1-F8 keys!

Velsharoon
Gallente
Arcane Velshologies
Posted - 2007.02.20 18:17:00 - [3]
 


How about realising why Account Sharing happens and do something about it?

Have the ability to queue a second skill for people going on holidays, address why "cynonets" exist.

Personally I dont have first hand experience with them but I understand the reasons behind them.

And can every Dev and GM honestly say their spouse/friend has never had access to their accounts? I dont care either way tbh (I have no life and dont need people to run my accounts and have seperate accounts for different things) but it just seems slightly hypocritical.

phillie blunt
Live And Let Die
Posted - 2007.02.20 18:19:00 - [4]
 

so the cynonet thing is illegal? YARRRR!!

NobodyHere
Posted - 2007.02.20 18:24:00 - [5]
 

Some day I'll read the EULA I promisse Embarassed

p.s. I just want to play the game ugh

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2007.02.20 18:27:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: phillie blunt
so the cynonet thing is illegal? YARRRR!!


Account sharing is not allowed. If the cynonet is based on account sharing, then it is illegal also.

Everything which involves account sharing is strictly forbidden. The EULA and the blog are very clear about this.

Dunedon
Trans Nebula Inc.
Posted - 2007.02.20 18:36:00 - [7]
 

Does this policy also mean that using tools that store your username and password to retrieve information about your character from the myeve website are also illegal?

Is there a differance if it's a local utility, or an external website that is using this information?

Or am I reading to much into this?

- Dunedon

CCP kieron

Posted - 2007.02.20 18:47:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Dunedon
Does this policy also mean that using tools that store your username and password to retrieve information about your character from the myeve website are also illegal?

This pertains to account information sharing among users, not tools themselves. Some tools such as EVEMon have been given a stamp of approval by CCP. Walking through the office, you would probably be amazed at the number of workstations that have a familiar blue icon residing in their trays. Smile

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2007.02.20 18:48:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Max Hardcase on 20/02/2007 18:51:18
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 20/02/2007 18:47:35
I hope you CCP guys know that some parts of that EULA stuff is worth a gnats fart in the EU ?

Br0wn 0ps
Posted - 2007.02.20 18:56:00 - [10]
 

Clearly, you need to either address the reason why CynoNets are there, or simply allow them with corp/alliance GTC purchased accounts. I mean, if an entity is paying for an account, that entity should be allowed to use it, correct?

Valeo Galaem
New Eden Advanced Reconnaissance Unit
Sentient World Observation and Response Directive
Posted - 2007.02.20 19:09:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Max Hardcase
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 20/02/2007 18:51:18
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 20/02/2007 18:47:35
I hope you CCP guys know that some parts of that EULA stuff is worth a gnats fart in the EU ?



The EULA is a contract that says CCP may grant you access to the game as they like in exchange for a fee. If you click accept, you've signed it, and from that point CCP has the legal right revoke / change that access. It has nothing to do with your own national laws or legality, and if the EU doesn't recognize formal contracts then that's something new. You break the terms of the EULA, CCP bans your account. Thats how it works.

Gut Punch
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.02.20 19:12:00 - [12]
 

If you want to talk about any specific issues; you must raise a petition.
Our privacy policy prohibits us from talking about individual cases with any 3rd parties.

-Suvetar

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2007.02.20 19:17:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Andrue on 20/02/2007 19:14:53
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 20/02/2007 18:51:18
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 20/02/2007 18:47:35
I hope you CCP guys know that some parts of that EULA stuff is worth a gnats fart in the EU ?

Which bits and why does it matter? If you're talking about some right to privacy or freedom of speech then you're way off base. Such things relate to the EU itself and have no bearing within a private domain. CCP has every right to place restrictions on its players exactly as a publican or shopkeeper has the right to deny you access or throw you out.

As long as you have the freedom to choose not to accept those terms CCP is doing nothing wrong. You do have that choice.

But enlighten us, which bits of the EULA don't you like?

Azerrad InExile
Posted - 2007.02.20 19:28:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Gut Punch
PS. How/Why do you make the distinction between sharing accounts with other people and sharing account info with 3rd party programs? How come that is given "CCP's stamp of approval"?


Originally by: EULA
anyone


The term "anyone" (as opposed to "anything") clearly implies a person. If you are sharing it with a person then it is not in compliance with the EULA. If you are sharing it with a program (i.e. not a person; not "anyone") it is ok. Note that this doesn't mean that giving your account login details to a mining macro to mine for your while your away is ok just because the macro is not a person. Macros and such are still not in compliance with the EULA, but that is covered in a different section.

Note that this analysis of the EULA is my personal opinion and is in no way intended to represent CCP's views on the EULA, and those are the only ones that matter in the end.

Riothamus
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:11:00 - [15]
 

Being a serviceman (one among many that play Eve), it is not uncommon for me/us to be sent on fairly long term out-of-area commitments. Since many of us live alone, what are the chances that the facility to queue skill training could be introduced?

Doing our job can entail that you be disadvantaged enough, without it happening in Eve, a pastime that we all (I am sure) very much enjoy.

Anaire Cirden
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:21:00 - [16]
 

If you must 'break the rules' and share, surely the practice of changing your password would go a long way towards protecting you afterwards?

hazeb
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:24:00 - [17]
 

What about...

http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/namepolicy.asp Item 1.c

Quote:
EVE Online subscribers are responsible for protecting the confidentiality of their account information. Any authorized use of a subscriber’s account by another individual is the responsibility of the account holder. The subscriber is responsible for the behavior of others who are permitted to use his or her account. Therefore, account holders are strongly urged not to share accounts or account information with others.

IHaul4U
Toolz Inc
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:24:00 - [18]
 

If this is CCPs stance on things then I suggest you look at some of the common reasons for account sharing and figure out a way to solve them.

1) Scheduling of Skills. As long as the account is active let the user select what skills they want to train. This way when people go on vacation etc and don't really have a long skill to train they can just set several smaller skills to be ready when they get back. This needs to be tied to the account being paid. Training while the account is inactive is just lame.

2) Cyno Chars - Something needs to be done about these. How do you move a capital ship and have no friends online at the current moment. (And without buying another account)

3) Corporate Capital Pilots - I can understand the issue with this in some regard.... Though on the other side of things if the issue is for the small corps that might only have one carrier. If you can't share your account you delegate that one person to the fun detail of jumping the carrier all over the place. Plus other things as well. Maybe we can have a lock down option on capital ships. Meaning that unless voted on by the shareholders only the person who it was locked down to is allowed to use it and cannot sell or trade it.... Only issue might be to self destruct it for insurance money or something.... But maybe if it's locked down then the money goes to the corp and self destruct won't work.

4) Freighter Pilots - See #3

5) Pos Manager Chars - Same as #3 but I could see some corporations using this as well to fill up their pos. Not sure how to solve this issue tbh

6) Hauler characters. Some people have only one account and use a friends account to haul when they are not online. Only way around this is for that person to get another account which means more money for CCP which I guess is what you want but it's not really fair.

7-100 - Too lazy to keep up with more examples tbh.

My suggestion to CCP would be to change the policy to allow account sharing but at your own risk... Meaning if you allow someone to use your account then that person steels your stuff then guess what... Your SOL... Sorry but it's just like if someone left their keys in the ignition and went to bed or something. The only issue would be hacking which will take up your time even with the current policy so imo that doesn't change anything.

An other option would be to allow corporations to purchase accounts that can be shared. While this doesn't solve all the problems it does help somewhat.

CCP I encourage you to change your mind on this issue...

IHaul4U
Toolz Inc
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:26:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: hazeb
What about...

http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/namepolicy.asp Item 1.c

Quote:
EVE Online subscribers are responsible for protecting the confidentiality of their account information. Any authorized use of a subscriber’s account by another individual is the responsibility of the account holder. The subscriber is responsible for the behavior of others who are permitted to use his or her account. Therefore, account holders are strongly urged not to share accounts or account information with others.



Oops... More doublespeak from CCP... So which is it... Allowed or not allowed???

Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:31:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Rutoo on 20/02/2007 20:38:02
I don't think a skill training queue should ever be introduced. Unless you don't train skills on a deactive account. that means they can go away for a year come back and have all the skills trained they wanted.

Which is stupid.

As for account sharing, i understand that there is a possibility of someone doing the sort of thing mentioned in the blog, but thats the risk.

I personally pay for 3 accounts but let my best friend (Who pays me in cash cause he doesn't have a credit card) use an account. Is this considered account sharing? Illegal?

And how often to you track down and punish people who are doing this but not petitioning becuase they are best friends in real life in?

Is it Tracked? you see logs of which IP's connected to which account on one day?

What if i goto my other friends house and log in there? does it pop up a flag that says warning account IP changed? goes in a log? Just for a rainy day?

I think it should be mentioned that yes, it's illegal, but it's not something thats overly inforced. Just incase of the situtation's above.

There is a huge difference in sharing an account with your Best Friend in Real Life, and Sharing an account with your Corp-Mates ingame.

Unless of Course if your Corp-Mates ingame is also your BestFriend in RealLife.

Edit: And i don't suffer from EULARD - I Suffer from last reading the EULA last in 2001 almost :P or 2002 can't remember it was way before game came out

GM Nova

Posted - 2007.02.20 20:45:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
With the GM cue backed up the way it is, its a shame that account sharing takes up so much of their time. I know ppl who have had petitions pending for weeks, and gotten no response. Please post the characters who are guilty of sharing, and let the player base monitor itself... hopefully with the F1-F8 keys!


Account sharing is not the single thing which is creating a load on CS. There are many contributing factors and this is one which can be influenced directly by the player.

We are not going to publish any names because this is not about punishment. As I wrote in the blog, it is about shared responsibilities and how you the players can directly affect the level of service through enlightenment.

Originally by: Velsharoon
How about realising why Account Sharing happens and do something about it?

Have the ability to queue a second skill for people going on holidays, address why "cynonets" exist.

Personally I dont have first hand experience with them but I understand the reasons behind them.

And can every Dev and GM honestly say their spouse/friend has never had access to their accounts? I dont care either way tbh (I have no life and dont need people to run my accounts and have seperate accounts for different things) but it just seems slightly hypocritical.


I am glad you bring a constructive opinion into your reply and I urge you to post your ideas on queued skilltraining in Features and Ideas discussions.

We can not proactively seek out accounts that might be shared, that would even waste more of our time. We can only hope that players reading this blog and thread realize the reasons behind our policy and that we are rewarded accordingly.

I can honestly say that I am the only person in the history of mankind that has ever logged into my account. I can not answer for other CCP staff members though as you can imagine. I hardly think that this thread is the correct forum for making accusations and passing judgement based on suspicion and speculation.

Originally by: Br0wn 0ps
Clearly, you need to either address the reason why CynoNets are there, or simply allow them with corp/alliance GTC purchased accounts. I mean, if an entity is paying for an account, that entity should be allowed to use it, correct?


We know the purpose of cynonets and yes, sharing accounts in order to create them is a violation of our EULA. We can hardly go on a hunt after prospective EULA violators on a mere suspicion. Cynonets are sadly not the topic of this thread and thus I will not comment on it again.

Regarding your second question, then I'm afraid you are wrong on that one. The person registered for the account is the owner of the account, regardless of who is paying for it.

GM Nova

Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari
Wife Aggro Productions
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:45:00 - [22]
 

So certain 'communist' corps that require you to hand over logon information as part of the deal are....not complying by the EULA?


Shocking.

Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:52:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Vladimir Tinakin
So certain 'communist' corps that require you to hand over logon information as part of the deal are....not complying by the EULA?


Shocking.



If a corp that i was going to join asked me for log in details i would tell them the shove it.

If it caused me not to join...then fine.

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.02.20 20:56:00 - [24]
 

Have you guys at CCP considered doing something like creating a "Corporate" account for eve? This special account could be accessed by certain other characters that players could add in-game or through the website? That way there could be a way for CCP to provide an official means to allow character-sharing without said character having to give their login information out in-game, and allows the player in question to control who can access their character. It wouldn't solve every problem, but it would help alot.

GM Nova

Posted - 2007.02.20 21:03:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Rutoo
I personally pay for 3 accounts but let my best friend (Who pays me in cash cause he doesn't have a credit card) use an account. Is this considered account sharing? Illegal?

And how often to you track down and punish people who are doing this but not petitioning becuase they are best friends in real life in?

Is it Tracked? you see logs of which IP's connected to which account on one day?

What if i goto my other friends house and log in there? does it pop up a flag that says warning account IP changed? goes in a log? Just for a rainy day?


It is not illegal, it is a violation of our policies. I am however not going to show up in the morning with a PostIt stapled to my forehead saying, "Remember to ban Rutoo. He is a scumsucking EULA violator." Not at all. The good thing is that now you know clearly the reasoning behind the policy and that your sharing your account details can have bad consequenses. Don't think we have not seen players shaft their best friend, co-worker, boss at work, brother, sister and yes even their father. YARRRR!!

GM Nova

Ankanos
Caldari
Posted - 2007.02.20 21:19:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Ankanos on 20/02/2007 21:17:59
-a short sighted response:

i suppose telling any petitioner "sorry, account sharing is a against the EULA, therefore we cannot help you in this matter since you gave out your info willingly.."

-thus freeing the que rather nicely...?

( i relize this might tarnish your outstanding support, but what would be the downside of this type of response?)

edit:
(i am guilty of sharing on occasion, but i myself would never
bother support if had been shafted.. i know the risk...i accept the consequenses..and would handle it, "internally")

-ank

Dronte
Minmatar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.02.20 21:26:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Dronte on 20/02/2007 21:29:07
Originally by: GM Nova

It is not illegal, it is a violation of our policies. *snip* Don't think we have not seen players shaft their best friend, co-worker, boss at work, brother, sister and yes even their father. YARRRR!!

GM Nova

I fully understand the reasons for having this in the EULA/ToS/ToU etc. but since this is the policy from CCP, shouldnt you amend the User policy, which clearly states in its opening paragraph:
Originally by: User Policy
c. EVE Online subscribers are responsible for protecting the confidentiality of their account information. Any authorized use of a subscriber’s account by another individual is the responsibility of the account holder. The subscriber is responsible for the behavior of others who are permitted to use his or her account. Therefore, account holders are strongly urged not to share accounts or account information with others.


It is understandable that players will get confused about what is and what isnt allowed (remember, not everyone reads the dev blogs). And while Im on the subject, please, please, please make it a bit more transparant what is and isnt allowed. Make a short list of the regular "Do's and Dont's" you as a GM encounter on a daily basis. Asking your users to read not just the EULA, but the Terms of Service, the Terms of Use, the Naming Policy, the Forum Rules, the Chat Rules and possibly the Ban Policy, just isnt the right thing to do, in my opinion.

By all means, i know and support there being rules, but it should really have to a lot easier to get the jist of them in a quick and easy way, not by having to read litteraly pages on pages of rules and regulations, especially the EULA which, lets face it, cant be a daunting task for people who have english as their first language, let alone people who doesnt. Having to dig through pages of legal "mombojumbo" english is hardly a user friendly thing :)

Last but not least, i honestly think you should allow account sharing, but with the following changes. Any petitions regarding missing funds, items etc. should of course be checked by a GM/ISD/whoever does it at CCP, for "legit" hacking. But a quick reference of IP's which accessed the account and how many times said account has been accessed for the IP, and I "know" you save this info. If the offending IP address have access the account numerous times, you can fairly certain assertain that the account info had been shared willingly by the account holder since, lets face it, if you had an enemy's login info would you login constantly just to check, and risk the target getting kicked off etc, cause you logged in. I know this isnt a perfect solution, since you would still get cases on a daily basis about this, but if the procedure for handling this could be a single click of a button or two in some interface, you could dismiss the case without having to do tons of work. I know there will false positives but that risk will always be there, no matter which way you choose to do it. I think, that doing it this way would reduce the number of cases, needing serious investigations.

[Edit]
But to sum up, I really feel you need to first, make a digest of the "popular" rules and make them easily available and understandable to everyone (i know it sucks to create stuff for the lowest denominator but it is clearly necessary here), and amend your rules to be less ambigous. Having different pages of saying different things is NOT a good idea (a couple pages clearly stating account sharing is prohibited, and at least one saying that it is at the responsibility of the account holder).

Lastly, i would've though CCP owned the account, not the user, since CCP holds the right to ban any user you see fit, without any form of refund :)

Sun Sliver
Minmatar
SEPTAGON TRANS-ILLUMINATI CORPORATION
Posted - 2007.02.20 21:31:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: GM Nova
Don't think we have not seen players shaft their best friend, co-worker, boss at work, brother, sister and yes even their father. YARRRR!!

GM Nova


I can see it now.

'OK Honey we got evrything worked out for the divorce...except our Eve accounts.'
'Screw you a-hole that's my account, you should have kept your cyber peepee out of my all girl corp and stuck to your bros!'
'You are such a prude!'
'Me prude? hmmm [logs in the hubby's acct] how's this for prude - i just logged in as you re-enacted the valentine's day graphic with your Avatar and told all your worst enemies to come have a blow at my hangar!'
'Oh noes...my...pooor...titan...'

...teeheehee Twisted Evil


GM Nova

Posted - 2007.02.20 21:37:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Dronte

It is understandable that players will get confused about what is and what isnt allowed (remember, not everyone reads the dev blogs). And while Im on the subject, please, please, please make it a bit more transparant what is and isnt allowed. Make a short list of the regular "Do's and Dont's" you as a GM encounter on a daily basis. Asking your users to read not just the EULA, but the Terms of Service, the Terms of Use, the Naming Policy, the Forum Rules, the Chat Rules and possibly the Ban Policy, just isnt the right thing to do, in my opinion.


I really like this idea. How about creating a sort of ten commandments which is neatly displayed every time you log in?

Dronte
Minmatar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.02.20 21:52:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Dronte on 20/02/2007 21:48:44
Originally by: GM Nova

I really like this idea. How about creating a sort of ten commandments which is neatly displayed every time you log in?


Im a firm believer in not showing stuff down people's throat every day, but at least when ever you create an account i think you should have a short intro from Aura (ship computer) which you are NOT able to cancel. That way you can be 100% sure that ALL players have read the rules, since the player simply cannot bypass it. This way it has been announced to the player, both in text and voice and therefor the player has no excuses to not knowing the rules.

But fail that, and yes, i think a News ticker like menu on the character selection screen would be an ok alternative, though it has the possibility of cluttering the interface too much in the lower resolutions at which EVE defaults.


fixed some quote'age problems :)


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