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Thommy
Posted - 2007.02.18 14:53:00 - [1]
 

Many players are interested in launching small buildings which are very low on maintanance costs or are free from maintanance at all.
This is because of several issues which one is needed standings towards faction empires (to launch high security POS), or the need to defend low sec pos.

This is often a problem for solo / small corp players (and the people who prefer to have a private base rather then the whole corp able to access it).

Deepspace base
The idea is to have a possiblity to launch everywhere where an secure can could be anchored (0.7 and lower).
Because faction standings would still be a problem for the non PVE'ers / mission runners the region where it is launched will be transferred into an deadspace area.
This deadspace will need an acceleration gate for access, which either comes with the primary structure or will need to be contructed aswell for complete access.

So this means to use a area like this you would need:
- Deadspace acceleration gate (which will need capacitor, fuel and eventually a access keycard{*} for activation)
- Galactic reconfiguration tower (makeing the area deadspace which will prevent the current empire from discovering it and requesting a standing for launch){*}

Additionally there could be various versions of these available (1 run faction drops, handed out by agents and T2 versions).

{*} Access keycards are produced by the main operation base for an additional cost (minerals and some other commodities).
{*} This control tower will need a very low quantity of fuel to keep the deadpsace generator online, if it runs out of fuel it can be discovered by regular means which means the empire will either fine you or remove this control tower.

After launch this deadspace will even be rated (1/10 for starting equipment only).


Defensive measures
Affcourse players will want to make it harder to crack their hidden base, so there will also be tools and equipment available to launch inside the deepspace base.
An idea could be to even allow various levels to make it harder reaching the actual base (just like an actual deadspace complex, ammount of levels will be depending on the deepspace control tower used).

Further there will be very weak sentry's (just like the regular complexes) available aswell as stasis webbify towers and various other ECM towers.
They will be very weak (25% or lower effect, only 1 in a 15km radius bubble for ECM / stasis towers with only 5km range to prevent multiple overlapping stacking).

Additionally there will be drone control towers (somewhat similar to NPC's), to prevent a large fleet of 100's of large drones each tower can only be launched outside an 30km bubble of each, with an action / agression radius of 15km and a tower only allows a certain ammount of drones (for example small tower with 20m3 only allows small drones, medium tower 40m3 only allows medium drones and large tower 100m3 only allows large drones).


Additional uses
So whats the use of this deadspace with a bunch of defensive measures and so far no real advantage?
Well one is a place to run to or to ambush someone hunting you (nice for low sec).
Also it will be possible to launch other types of structures production facility's, research bases etc.
The things build (ships) will be build outside of the structure and be attackable just like anything else and the produced modules or minerals if it was not completed yet will be dropped as loot if the facility is killed.
Research labaratory's will need the bpo's you want to research inside them so you will risk looseing them this way aswell.


Attacking a deepspace base
You will get informed by a player customisable warning message aswell as a threat indicator (1/10 upto 10/10 calculated on defenses / total structures).

[read futher on next post]

Thommy
Posted - 2007.02.18 14:54:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Thommy on 20/02/2007 08:57:39
Because the interior is scrambled concord will not give protection to either the attacker or defender because concord does not condone these locations.
The aggreasion can only take place behind the first gate (which should also be hackable incase the user decided to let it require activation keys).

Also the more levels there are the more keys are needed and therefore the defending player has more chances to ambush an attacker.


requirements
- Anchoring skills (level 1 for lowest classed buildings, higher for advanced buildings.
- special construction skills (to produce the keys, the acceleration gates and the buildings).


building specifics
I leave the really specific things for ccp if they decide this can be implemented in the game, however i will write down some idea's.

Deepspace base
- small Construction plant with 250 m3 space, which will hold the keys and minerals needed to build keys can be inserted here.
- small storage bay with 1500 m3 space, which will hold the fuel for operating the deepspace base.
- defensive turret / sentry "slots" depenging on level of the construction used.

small research cabin
- 1 research slot for ME, PE, invention, copying

small robotic construction facility
- can construct modules (basicly everything except ships and capital sized equipment)
- has a storage vault where needed minerals and bpc's / bpo's for construction go (this will show up as an container on overview which can be accessed with a codebreaker)

small ship assembly array
- can construct ships (only T1 ships and anything below battleship or battlecruiser?)

guard sentry
- a simple sentry with only sensors (requires a small ammount of minerals for each scan performed), can inform of gate hacking / access attempts and "scan" the incomming ship

attack sentry
- light defensive sentry which requires ammo, one of each racial types available (because they are very weak they do not require additional powergrid / cpu as this is converted from solar powerpanel build into them).

defensive drone control tower
- an automated drone controlling unit, needs drones to operate but only has specific control augments for specific drone types so it can only control one class of drones.

ECM and stasis web towers
- ECM / stasis web towers with only low strenght because they do not additional CPU / powergrid (anything between 5% to 25% effect depending on tower type).

Acceleration gate
- An acceleration gate which can send ships over a small distance, they require fuel and ship capacitor to be activated and eventually an key which is constructed at the deepspace base.


Additionally some of these buildings could also be launched in 0.0 space because they do have low operating requirements.

Edit: new idea
I came up with an idea for a abandoned item aswell.
Everyone likes the idea of mines but they caused to much lag when they where introduced.
My idea is to use them in a different way which looks abit similar towards traps inside the exploration complexes.
Have the ability to trap certain contents (for example the storage vault of the small robotic construction facility).
When a player is succesfully immediately in hacking the container the bomb will not go off, however if the player fails it will go of (this could destroy the contents or only harm the players ship).

All buildings that have an input area for minerals, fuel, ammo etc will have this storage vault which can be trapped.

Jareck Hunter
Rubicon Legion
Posted - 2007.02.21 16:42:00 - [3]
 

Maybe you can place the base in a deadspace, you have to find with exploration. And those are limitet, like 1 per Constelation or so.

I like the idea.

Hammering Hank
Caldari
Posted - 2007.03.06 23:28:00 - [4]
 

/signed

I really like the idea of having the ability to build my own research and construction POS without the hugh price and effort needed to make it a full POS. I also like the aspect of giving players one more thing to use scanner to attempt to find, break into, and destroy / steal.

Mission runnering in Empire have fun, but a player owned Deadspace in Empire would greatly enhance the game for these types of players.


Christopher Dalran
Gallente
Deadly Alliance
Posted - 2007.03.07 00:26:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 07/03/2007 00:26:17
Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 07/03/2007 00:25:21
I was thinking somewhere allong the lines of allowing small control towers to be anchored anywhere, this would also make stealth emitters viable as they could be used to basically hide them. They actually do a prety good job hiding pos's, the problem is just that all people have to do to find it is warp to the planet and directional scan the moons.

You could then have a real hidden pirate base equiped with a hangar and everything. Small POS's are not exactly difficult to take out, in fact its the one size i would say is doable without the use of any capital ships, so i dont think it would throw anything out of wack. Again only in .4 and lower but thats kind of the only place it would be useful.

Perhaps fuel usage could be scaled based on the % of max cpu and pg used? If you want it to run cheaply just only anchor those modules you need.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2007.03.07 01:25:00 - [6]
 

I like the idea of player - run deadspaces A LOT.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2007.03.07 03:56:00 - [7]
 


xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2007.03.08 23:52:00 - [8]
 

im already drooling !

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.03.09 20:24:00 - [9]
 

cool idea

I think by the time a player is flying a battle ship this might be getting to small for them.

I would Sugest a way to construct power and computer centers that could then allow larger and large construction and lab facility. Ie give the player the option that they could power a pos Lab with 20 solar power plants, or one fusion reactor, the fusion reactor needs fule from ice just like a pos.

so the player can chose does he want banks of solar power sattalites or a big fusion plant.

give the player options and choices and multiple ways to get into it.

Also maybe tie into the gate restrictions system, so a basic dead space can only be accessed by frigates and maybe cruisers, but when you upgrade to the next level it opens up crusiers and battle shipss...

anyway hope you get the idea.

Baumi
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.03.11 11:54:00 - [10]
 

I think it shouldn't be possible to attack them, or at least, make it more difficult.
If you can hack the gates, there will be soon a new generation of pirates, spezialisit of attacking deadspace bases.

The gates should hace a cloaking device, which only can be deactivated with a acces key (for a minute or maybe two). In this time everybody can jump in, but the owners gets a message if somebody uses the gate so he will not uncloak the second gate, and the pirat can only destroy the things in the first pocket.

To make attacks more common, there should be a message if the gate is uncloakt in the Local (e.g. Baumi uncloaks the gate to his Deadspace), and a new scanner probe which can locate a gate quite fast.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.03.11 14:20:00 - [11]
 

Ok I love this idea, its a winner. So lets get to the crux of the problem, security.

How do you make it fair so that the enemy can get to your base but also make it so difficult to do so that it takes a good bit of planning? You know what, Its simple, unbelievable simple.

Keycards were mentioned in the op, so lets expand the idea further. Let make it that Keycards can not be copied easily, they take days to make a copy and require you to have the race specific encryption methods skill that corresponds to the deadspace acceleration gates design origin. You make it that a copied keycard can also be rejected and destroyed upon use. The keycard however can be mass produced by the owner of the deadspace base. He can produce keycard originals that allow unlimmited use and keycards that have 1 to X number of uses before they fail. Also a copy of a limited use keycard only has the same amount of uses as the original.

Next problem. How does the enemy get their hands on a keycard. #1 is Espionage, plain simple spy work. #2 To enter the deadspace the player must have a keycard in their cargo hull, if the player is destroyed, there is a high chance that the keycard is in the wreckage. It can only be aquired from the wreckage by a salvage mod. That been said, if the player self destructs the keycard is destroyed 100%, makes it hard but not impossible.

So we address the issue of access. Next is defences.

Basic player deployable tower sentries with different abilities the same as a npc deadspace, also allowing small shield structures to give added defenses to the towers. Appart from that you allow as others have said deployable drones, tho drones are limmited. Perhaps with higher cpu/power use you can use fighters.

Beyond those sorts of defenses, this is not a large pos, this is not an outpost. Its something a very small corp can run, so if the access keys have been stolen then unless you have big friends, kiss your base goodbye.

What do you think people?

Thommy
Posted - 2007.03.12 09:06:00 - [12]
 

I have gone over the ideas other people have suggested and will provide my own idea of why i think it would be an good or bad addition.

Originally by: Jareck Hunter
Proposes: Limited ammounts only 1 per system or constellation which you have to find trough exploration

I do not think this would be fair because then a few people could start claiming them because they are only limited available (think about the anchor can at good moons).


Originally by: Christopher Dalran
Proposes: Stealthed player owned deadspace aswell as fuel usage

I think indeed that they shouldn't just be a warpable object in overview (also to prevent a crowded overview if there are dozens of them in a system and someone just warping in it while you are still setting it up).
Probably they would fit best in the exploration like content and should only be allowed to be deployed at a max of 4AU or less from a warpable object (unless stronger probes could be made).

However fuel usage is exactly the thing that should either be limited (very low) or not excist at all (which could potentially mean someone could mass spam an area).
To fix the problem of massive spamming an gate entry point (beacon) is only allowed to be upto 120km from the next level or base so that what can be put up between them is limited anyway.
Possibly make a hard limit of like 30 structures per level depending on quality of the control tower (T1, T1 named, T1 faction, T2).
Control tower should have a fual usage however to keep the deadspace bubble up (the bigger you make it the larger the fuel usage, which then invites to makeing it smaller to conserve fuel).


Originally by: Sarf
Proposes: Also the ability to place larger structures and a limit of access depending what the difficulty level is

Sounds like a good idea but should also have some form of limit on how well a player can keep it up.
It could for example be possible to anchor a pos structure with an special structure with a low ammount of fuel usage (based of the pos system) or by launching a large ammount of solar panels which provide small ammounts of cpu / powergrid each.
It does not give any protection at all (like a pos shield does) but allows the operation of certain pos modules (to prevent people from deploying pos guns which could possibly be to powerfull for these places).

The access limit is a very good idea indeed, specially to prevent a battleship sweeping the start level difficulty.


Originally by: Baumi
Proposes: Only after owner / users of the deadspace base use a gate it should show up shortly

The idea is that these bases can be found and attacked at any time, thuss a risk to operate them.
However there may be possiblities to deploy better equipment when it reaches a higher level.
Preferably not the option to have pos sized guns in them because some are really strong or at least some sort of limt like 6/10 and higher allow the small and medium sized pos guns and at 9/10 and 10/10 large and citadel sized pos guns.


Originally by: Nian Banks
Proposes: Keycards with limited usages aswell as unlimited use, only aquireable trough killing the owning player or by aquireing it trough espionage.
Also suggests additional base defenses upto fighters and small shield structures.

The idea of creating different kind of keycards sounds very good (1 runs, several runs and unlimited) but the idea about only getting them from killed players would mean the base is as good as invincable if the owner is very carefull.
The idea is that these gates can be hacked (which would take alot of time) and could even possibly trigger some form of gate trigger defense on failed cycles (the gate could have small damage guns itself for example).

[continue on next post about the Additional base structures]

Thommy
Posted - 2007.03.12 09:15:00 - [13]
 

The idea about additional structures is a very good one aswell, for example structures could be hardened for shield and armor by specific structures, get shield boosting / armor repairing from an assisting structure (however these structures could be popped themselves one by one so nothing can be made invulnerable).

It could be quite challengeing an gun / launcher has 75% resistance on armor AND shields aswell as being armor repaired / shield boosted alot every second (somewhat like certain overseers in high level compexes).
However these wont be strong because their boosters / resistance providers could be picked off one by one.

Also would be better that fighters would only be allowed in if the complex is rated for a high level.


To prevent abuse by deploying equipment after makeing it a highlevel, then removeing equipment to lower it again so there is only low level ship access but high level defences modules that only can operate on a high level will be offlined automaticly.
It should be troughly checked to prevent the invulnerable base and to prevent overpowered situations aswell as lag generators (ship popped before scenery is loaded).

Maybe a limit to not have anything close to the entry beacon on each level to prevent instant attacking and a limit to ranges between beacon and next level or base but then again a player would also cause problems for himself if he choose to make every level require flying 120+ km because he or she would still need to fuel the control tower.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.03.12 11:38:00 - [14]
 

I'm not all that up on the whole idea of the complexes been rated 1 through to 10. its only realy any good for pve, If you rated it 1/10 and people knew that then they would go for your complex and not a 10/10.

Nah keep it as an unrated system, allow you to if you so desire to even just have a shield a few solar panels, a capital sized gun and a hangar. If you want... I mean who cares? Watever you can afford ey!

With regards to hacking, sure hack it but also made it that hacking has negatives, you can wind up somewhere way off from everyone else entering (maybe even another system), you could acidentally trigger its defenses and so you get shot at by the gate itself, you could even get completely destroyed by a malfunction.

Hacker: Ok boss I have hacked the gate.
Boss: Good job lad.
Hacker: Right its all ready.
Boss: Well boys time to attack the base, all in.
Boys 1 2 3 & 4: Yes, Yar, Arr, Me Hardy.
"Everyone activates and enters the acceleration gate"
Hacker: Erm I think i'm off course, oh damn am I about to warp into the sun?
"Hacker wakes up in a fresh new clone"
Boy 3: Erm boss can you hear me boss, I'm kinda in doril boss... may take me a while to get back.
Boss: Hrm well were here, but where mission some lads. Yarr.


That guys is how I see the whole hacking thing for a gate. Not a predictable hack and fly in trick. While its hacked anyone can use it but beware, oh and it only should stay hacked for at most an hour. And it should have taken a hefty time to hack it in the first place.

Thommy
Posted - 2007.03.12 13:02:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Thommy on 12/03/2007 13:15:01
Originally by: Nian Banks
Proposes: Dropping the rateing system, which would give freedom to launch anything you want in it.
Additionally proposes the hacking of the gate would give a random chance (ship destruction, usual warp and get in, warpin inaccuracy).

The rateing system should go automatic by some process (either a building count eg 10 = 1/10 and 100 = 10/10) or by base operation.

Base operation would turn on in low level mode (1/10) and could for example only allow you to put the deepspace base online and deploy 10 structures to keep in the limits, access is limited to owner and frigates as biggest class.
This is just to prevent you being a sitting duck but still give some risk of someone accidently struggling into it and comming at you in his frigate (base elements should be so big that only a industrial could effectively put things up).
The rateing is primarily to prevent someone from sticking in a "low rate" and deploying 20 pos guns at the entry point (for example) because a specific rateing should be needed for specific types of equipment.
This could also be a factored limit to the control tower (basic T1 only goes upto 4/10 while the T2 goes upto 10/10).
Additionally to the rateing by ammount of structures a player can also force an higher level even upto 10/10 (but going lower would mean some things can go into offline mode with a warning which ones that would be).
The rateing could also be hidden (like exploration complexes) but still be visible for the player who owns it as it may be a very important indicator (for example that one extra solar panel just made it a 5/10 which means battleships now can get in and your current defenses may not be enough to deal with that).
Would also be fun if archeology would then allow you to see the actual rateing so you can still make a guess if it would be wise to enter before being vaporised by that potential citadel gun with the scrambling tower sitting at the first level.

The idea needs to be worked out abit so it doesn't leave any grounds open for invulnerable bases nor some way to achieve unbeatable odd's.
The owning player can go in a battleship while everyone else could be limited only to frigates, that would be the risk someone takes hence the ability to use this space to actually ambush the hunters yet a few properly fit frigates could still do the job which invites some teamwork.

Now for the hacking leading to an unpredictable result this is a very nice idea indeed.
System swapping as of current will probably be impossible as i understand these require session changes (putting you on an different node for example).
Ship destruction would be a little to overpowered though it could lead to minor damage onto the ship by build in acceleration gate defences (which if you fail to often to hack could potentially mean small ships like frigates could be killed).
The warp in inaccuracy sounds great as this could give varying results, you could actually be lucky and land right in the smack middle of the next gate, just warp in at the beacon or end up right into the center point of all concentrated defenses.

ShadeLiner
Posted - 2007.04.05 17:12:00 - [16]
 

>>Connecting DataPools.
>Initzialize Relay.Trasmission Tools
.downloading

What happend if I have my own facitily? Even if a radiotelescope, or something like with nanotechnology... If a deathspace base is can refer to a mission kind objects, buildings, and more coegzisted structures may there are many kind of generators, a different kind base structure than the POS system. A deathspace base also need a power source, but it can be a solar harvester, a power generator, and so... Btw it should be not limited in range and complexity.

Yeah, and I suggest to be able to build near stations and gates too. And there is a need in many NPC structures, to fill up a bit somewheres the empty space. Like bunkers and walls in the gate in public in a blckade, or a normal concord moves can be enchanted in mobile HQ building. Of course it NPC-s need to follow common laws. As like the size of the items when they build Deathspace bases. And if this will be modelled, and missions need to outbuilding them locations in to the space, can hit a bit deeper the mission system. Each missions (or many from them) should be triggered to some NPC moves in normal spaces, like around the gates and stations.

It can be complex. And that the aquire of deathspace object is one of the main quastions at all. May can be stolen from the deathspace sites with the correct class of ship, may with a special (NEW) engineering class vessel, what is cruiser class size for generators, beacons, and sentries, but larger for buildings, and so.

The problems are

. if the deathspace and POS objects will be walkable like stations, need to develop inside the Cross locations, like walls in missions, as like corridors.

. may a corporate with some pleasure hubs and casinos, are can made good profit in low sec areas, if they can control
Twisted Evil

. many player will look desoriented the rush in empire, if each mission will hase some time delay till the triggered NPC-s acting in the background, till the datas of the cloactions aquired, and gathered. (simply if one task of the missions will be to aquire deathspace objects, and trade with them after them guards killed, and many times can solve a quastion. What happends if the NPC fleet not can enter to the location where the mission is via concord? Do they use small portable stargate like stuff?)

.this is a possibility of complex nonstation enviroment implement in the game, like military complexes, wherehouses, large scale crossloading facitilies, and so, with guarding drones, and with triggered with the CONCORD, POLICE, CORPORATE + (Missions, like if a priate group attacked our department and now transporting out our minerals form the location X, and we asking you to with n other mans with that support go there and theach them...)Twisted Evil

DeathSpaces object management can be colorize a bit in anchoring based skills, with some new spacial related skills, like all other weaponaries.

But the basis quastion, what happend if I have an own interstellar relay center, near my homebase or our POS in high sec? What can I do with it... whitout a internal (RP capatible) communicating system, which is a revised chatting system... with auto, but ingame realistic console messages, and a whole galactical communicating network from deathspace objects will be fine, and also will be good many triggered possibilities grounded ingame. I don't just thinking in the affects of ingame communicating, if the connecting to someones ship will be a bit delayed 1s/1kAU or so... and till the console only the relaynetwork messages will be showed...

Cpt. Liner
#transmission closed

Wander Lost
Posted - 2007.04.10 12:42:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Wander Lost on 10/04/2007 13:12:03
It sounds like it should be a reward for corps with high member count, high standing, or a long track record. It'd be like a backup base in case BoB finds your POS. I think that the only use that could come from it is a totally secure storage area (by way of player owned warehouses, cargo bins or whatever - but of varied capacity). If these zones were given any of the goodies a POS has then would be made obsolete. The price of upkeep definetly matches the use of it. With that said, the incentive of any large corp should be to expand, and the incentive of any small one should be to get big.

Note - No one should truly be SAFE here in EVE. So as a safeguard for chaos there should be a password lock on the entry gate that would give rise to spies and the like to gain lucrative info like that.

And no - i'm not a spy - though i love that aspect of this game.


 

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