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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:22:00 - [511]
 

Edited by: Gnulpie on 16/02/2007 20:19:38
I guess that this can be resolved in a time not too long.

CCP has logs and they show the type of aggro when you log out, for example if it is npc aggro or what else not.

So this shouldn't take too long to sort out.

Edit: spelling level 0

Popsikle
Minmatar
Caffeine Commodities Company
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:22:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: Kozak
On the other hand, if you shoot that person's can, you can keep him in space for 2 hours. I'm sure the titan has many cans littering the battlefield.


If the titan pilot killed anything, that created wrecks or cans why are there no titan kills on the d2 kill board for this morning?

How can BoB exploit wrecks if the D2 didnt make any wrecks with thier titan.......

Jake Noble
Amarr
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:23:00 - [513]
 

Edited by: Jake Noble on 16/02/2007 20:20:23
Remember guys if you think its fishy CCP setup there new department EXACTLY for these reasons petition and make it clear you think something was up and they will investigate... forum *****ing gets no one anywhere and no closer to the truth.

I have no doubt in my mind that bob killed the titan with pure legit tactics so kudos to them, however I know some do not share the same feeling.

Grimeh
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:23:00 - [514]
 

Originally by: Raivi
Edited by: Raivi on 16/02/2007 20:17:05
Originally by: Grimeh

So how was this wreck created?


When the titan killed somebody hours before. (Hypothetically)


No kills by the titan since tuesday logged on D2 board..

zepter
Caldari
Divine Interventions
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:24:00 - [515]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Ivan K ([email protected])

Pepperami
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:24:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: Caledric
A wreck can be kept alive for days simply by shooting it once every hour or so with a low damage weapon. You don't even have to do damage, just engage it somehow. I've kept a wreck alive for 4 days before doing this. And D2 did kill several folks with the DD so its entirely possible that this method was used.


How did you live without the sleep? Or was it power-nap, wakeup, engage wreck, go back to power-nap?

Grimeh
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:26:00 - [517]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Ivan K ([email protected])

Ajaku
Caldari
LiveTech
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:26:00 - [518]
 

I am thinking that it was either the wreck/can exploit.

Or it was the passive targeting module exploit, that module gives the pilot it is used on an agro timer, and in 0.0, they would have no clue.

Admentus Cor'vion
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:27:00 - [519]
 

Originally by: Jon Hawkes
This moment is so amazing...
I just think I may have to have sex with it... Laughing



Actually, I thought that last moment (hello aeon) was amazing. But in reality, I'd divorce that other moment, marry this one, and have a family of tiny little moments.

Darth Sith
Caldari
Genbuku.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:27:00 - [520]
 

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Questions that should be answered by CCP:

1. Was the titan killed in under 2 minutes?
2. Was the titan aggroed?
3. If the titan was aggroed? How was it aggroed, and by who?

The only way I can see this kill happening is if they:
a) managed to probe it and kill it in under 2 minutes (seems unlikely)
b) Wreck exploit.
c) Whatever system bug or unknown exploit that causes people to stay in space for a very long time with no aggro timer (happened to many of my corpmates in jv1v)
d) The titan was somehow aggroed by a friendly pilot and didn't see it. This could've been a spy, or just a ******. But this option seems very unlikely since he was in a pos...(although I hear there is an exploit to lock people in pos that I don't know about).

If bob, d2, or ccp would care to answer these questions then I'm sure the community would be placated. If they killed the titan in 2 minutes, then good job. If they somehow managed to aggro the titan without him knowing it via a spy or whatever then also a good job. Both events seem unlikely though.

Shamis


Incorrect .. one of the patches changed the non-aggro logoff to 30 seconds .. have one of your buddies logoff and see how long they sit in space before they disappear if you don't believe me :)

Popsikle
Minmatar
Caffeine Commodities Company
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:27:00 - [521]
 

Originally by: Slayton Ford
It seems odd that you should not expect to be safe logging off in a PoS. Your in a safe spot yet the act of logging puts you in a non-safe spot.

A simple fix to this is to allow ships to be anchored. When a ship is anchored, it connot be moved so therefore the emergency warp cannot kick in and move the ship to a non-safe spot. Now its safe to log in a PoS with a agression timer.


Logging at a POS is bad... What happens when the POS your att gets popped while your logged out, and a enemy one gets put in its spot....

Lorth
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:27:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Caledric
Originally by: Takita Yukida
What I do not understand with the wreck exploit theory here is the fact that the titan supposidly sat in a POS for 3 hours.

How on earth was there any wreck left to be exploited at all if he did do nothing for 3 hours?

being idle -> no wrecks generated -> no wrecks to be exploited

somehow there seems to be a slight discrepancy about the wreck theory Rolling Eyes


A wreck can be kept alive for days simply by shooting it once every hour or so with a low damage weapon. You don't even have to do damage, just engage it somehow. I've kept a wreck alive for 4 days before doing this. And D2 did kill several folks with the DD so its entirely possible that this method was used.


IIRC that only works with NPC can's/wrecks, and not with player wrecks.

With the 13,426 differant ways this could have occured I'm more then willing to sit on the fence and wait and see what exactly happens.

For all we know, it could have been as simple as a D2 pilot cleaning up random extra can's that were laying around. I don't think is nieve of me to think that given the events that have taken place, and the proportion of this kill the GM's will be looking at this very closely to see what took place.

Gregarius
Caldari
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:30:00 - [523]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Ivan K ([email protected])

Grainsalt
Caldari
Lorentzian Traversable Corporation
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:31:00 - [524]
 

Originally by: Lorth
Originally by: Caledric
Originally by: Takita Yukida
What I do not understand with the wreck exploit theory here is the fact that the titan supposidly sat in a POS for 3 hours.

How on earth was there any wreck left to be exploited at all if he did do nothing for 3 hours?

being idle -> no wrecks generated -> no wrecks to be exploited

somehow there seems to be a slight discrepancy about the wreck theory Rolling Eyes


A wreck can be kept alive for days simply by shooting it once every hour or so with a low damage weapon. You don't even have to do damage, just engage it somehow. I've kept a wreck alive for 4 days before doing this. And D2 did kill several folks with the DD so its entirely possible that this method was used.


IIRC that only works with NPC can's/wrecks, and not with player wrecks.

With the 13,426 differant ways this could have occured I'm more then willing to sit on the fence and wait and see what exactly happens.

For all we know, it could have been as simple as a D2 pilot cleaning up random extra can's that were laying around. I don't think is nieve of me to think that given the events that have taken place, and the proportion of this kill the GM's will be looking at this very closely to see what took place.


I think Shrike saying DigitalCommunist's Plan worked kinda blows it out of the water.

Ewa Quillam
Caldari
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:31:00 - [525]
 

Until this hour, D2 didn't post any titan loss. Why? It's simple, but my personal guess is they don't need to post it because they'll get it back.

I think it will be a very long war with a very angry D2... not that I know any of them, but many would be very ****ed off to be pulled something like this on.

Aries Acheron
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:31:00 - [526]
 

I have a question. Everyone's commenting on how BoB has exploited by using passive targetters on wrecks, to keep aggro on the Titan.

The question is, if the Titan was possed up for 3 hours, doing no damage or anything.. how could it still be aggroed, since all the wrecks would have expired hours ago?

Shigsy
Caldari
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:32:00 - [527]
 

Originally by: batloard
well d2 are saying the titan was sitting in a pos for around 3 hours and was not agressed, he jump bridged some ships to yz and shortly logged off, and bob proceeded to kill him in this state. All it wouldve took was someone to shoot one wreck, or even his own guys shooting him to get him agressed before he logged. A titan is a big target so there is a small chance someone shot at him somewhere.


If he was doing nothing for 3 hours, none of his wrecks would still be there. Wrecks disappear after 2 hours.

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:32:00 - [528]
 

BOOOM goes another titan. Shows perhaps that a titan != win.

However.

BoB has now killed two titans in a similar manner. In fact a manner that has been publicised for a at least a month now. I am sorry, but I am ever so slightly suspicious*.

I know people are comparing this to the LV titan that was lost [via an exploit], but the cookie crumbles both ways. If people are using game mechanics to bring a titan back after the aggro timer; then people can get away with forcibly crashing a node and logging in before the other side does. The difference is, one is a [relatively unknown] game mechanic, whilst the other is a potential exploit/bug.

* This is the same suspicion that thought giving a corp member 10x T2 BPO's was a little off; was smacked down by BoB; and subsequently proven true.

Cupdeez
Caldari
Out of Order
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:34:00 - [529]
 

I have a petition that has not been answered but I think this petition should go right to the top since a titan could have the difference between winning and lossing a system/War...


Maybe bob knoew this would happen but figured if they didn't have a titan for 2 months for the petition to get answered would give them enough time to fight D2 off.

Ajaku
Caldari
LiveTech
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:34:00 - [530]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Ivan K([email protected])

Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Ev0ke
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:34:00 - [531]
 

A Titan is a Ship. No more, no less.
Although the costs are quiet much larger in comparison to the losses of a single fleetfight, it is nonetheless just another bit more expensive loss. Why have one Titan if you can just build a second or third with just twice/three times the costs?

Well, however...
Gamemechanics are meant to give the community/regular player a base of rules to be able to play the game like it was meant to. The aggro timer is meant to prevent players from saving their ship´s destruction in a fight by logging off.

If the aggro timer is initialized by abuse of knowledge of game mechanics(it should either be apparent for the player that he commited an action making him considered as a partipician of an engagement, or it is imperative that game mechanics have no hidden back doors for flagging someone an aggressor/agressed without him getting to know) it is a design flaw(and thus a bug), since the game mechanic is enabling you to do something that it was not meant to enable you.

Of course, my whole speech here is highly hypothetical, since I neither am able to verify my background information nor would it be good to go any futher with any details, since the informations I got were of course not aquired first-hand and I don´t want to post anything based on information, that might proove to be false.

kind regards, Skel

ps: morale can rise, morale can sink; but in some situations, only the wish for retaliation will grow.

Del369
Caldari
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:34:00 - [532]
 

Edited by: Del369 on 16/02/2007 20:39:50
Originally by: Sexorella hotz
Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: Crystal Starbreeze
You know i have to call Haxx on this. Second titan lost all with BOB being the one taking it down and now a GM response quickly after.

I would like to see CCP's response that everything was fine, no exploit, Gm help etc. Two titans killed undefended by a Corp known to have cheated with GM help in the past. Seems fishy to me. How bout an official post. Its sad that now half of EVE players feel their is an exploit or GM help. CCP has lost the trust of the eve universe and now they have to build that trust back up. This would be an good first step.

I am neutral in this war but really this just doesn't seem right from any angle.


Rolling Eyes

People using logic and 'facts' like this is why I think democracy is doomed as a long term form of world government.

So if the GM's said 'no, no hacks involved' would that be enough? No of course not.

The only cheater so far has been a dev who made mostly ammo BPO's and one good ship bpo. No 'Corp known to have chated with GM help' was involved in two titan kills. BoB is the real victim in this scandal but instead you get people like the op posting emo.

Makes me glad I'm on the side I'm on.



What's the point of them posting? Everyone's already made their conclusions, based on the plentiful evidence supplied.


There fixed it for you, oh btw, you shouldn't even be posting being an alt.........

Popsikle
Minmatar
Caffeine Commodities Company
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:35:00 - [533]
 

Originally by: Gregarius
IMHO:
The player community needs a clear statement from CCP stating that it was a clear and fair fight and nothing fishy has happend. By supplying data and log of all events and parties involved and a clear indication of the used game-mechanics that made this happen would clear all the smoke and fog around this event.

For the sake of all the countless players, who are not trolling and forum fighting and just want to play EVE as it was meant to be, please make the petition a public and a closed topic in order noone only the relevant and public oppinions would be readable.

Thank you in advance for your kind response.
Gregarius
WOT


IMO, if it was a valid tactic that got the kill, why should CCP tell everyone in the world about how BoB kills titans... Thats like giving away the plans for a nuke, it jut wouldnt be right for them to say, "Hey listen, they got the kill legit, and here is exactly how they did it, so everyone else can do it too!" What would be the point of thinking in eve if everytime you out thunk someone CCP came and told everyone how you did it?

Mariko San
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:36:00 - [534]
 

Originally by: Aries Acheron
I have a question. Everyone's commenting on how BoB has exploited by using passive targetters on wrecks, to keep aggro on the Titan.

The question is, if the Titan was possed up for 3 hours, doing no damage or anything.. how could it still be aggroed, since all the wrecks would have expired hours ago?


Well if that was the case then how on earth was it possible that it was stil in space when it got destroyed and did not disappear after 30 seconds?

Ewa Quillam
Caldari
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:38:00 - [535]
 

Originally by: Avernus
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 16/02/2007 19:25:02
Originally by: Avernus

Look closer, he says 'congrats to all involved'. That includes D2, the titan pilot, and everyone in system. Titan deaths are landmark events; winner or loser, you've just been marked down in Eve history for being there.



There was no D2 involved. The Titan logged off from POS after 3 hours. He was then probed and Shrike jumpbridged a fleet on it.


Wait a sec... you mean to tell me that the Titan logged off from a POS where D2 had no forces, and it had hostiles in local?
.
..
...
So you didn't jump out the Titan to a clear system, warp him to a deep safe and log off without agression. Why is anyone surprised that this titan got lost? Truth be told, you almost lost it last week but never heard about it. Your titan logged in a system that had Fixians in it while they were up in Fountain. Were it not for a lack of coverts at the time, we'd have it probed out ourselves.

Honestly, the way you treated your titan and protected it, the loss is of little surprise. Condolences for the loss, but maybe turn the eye inward to see why it could have happened.


So, you are justifying the exploit?????? lol

Kam SingDu'k
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:38:00 - [536]
 

Frickkin awesome event! 2 titans down in 2 days, does this mean the coalition no longer hold titans? Not that I'm siding with bob because i aint but looking from the outside its definately made things more exciting for both sides lawl.

Plaetean
Caldari
0utbreak
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:38:00 - [537]
 

From the information posted by the D2 members, it looks like the only possible way the titan could have been killed is by BoB using spies in D2 to agro the titan before it logged. My question to D2 is, were there other people inside the POS? Or, if they've been shooting through a POS bubble before, that's a possibility too.

I don't see how this wreck exploit is feasable as afaik wrecks don't last that long.

Itzena
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:38:00 - [538]
 

The 'tactic' BoB used will only be fixed once BoB loses a Titan to it.

Empyre
Minmatar
Chaotic Balance
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:41:00 - [539]
 

Edited by: Empyre on 16/02/2007 20:38:04
Originally by: Kozak
Shooting a wreck of a pilot, activates teh aggro timer, if he logged off and they scan him out and aggro him, YOU DO NOT GET AGGRO TIMER IF YOU LOG BEFORE THE AGGRO HAPPENED. It's the same thing that happens when people log off in bubbles, they still warp out and dissapear in 30 seconds.

CCP really has their heads up their asses to allow a Titan to get destroyed like this. Very poor show again CCP.

The only way they could have gotten aggro on the Titan is to shoot his can, which is an exploit and is petitionable.


if the titan was sitting in a POS for so many hours, how did he generate wrecks to be shot at?

EDIT: someone beat me to it!

to all the people crying exploit and saying they are going to quit, i say good.freaking.riddance. the world, virtual or no, is better off without you.

Jackkal
Amarr
Order of Melekel
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:41:00 - [540]
 

Originally by: Zrevak Ashek
FFS! One must think ppl would learn from CYVVOKS mistakes, but nooooo...


There is rumor that cyvok was ip kicked from the server.This info was out before the whole scandel surfaced, will be interesting to hear how bod shot another offline titan


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