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Kurtz Weber
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:08:00 - [481]
 

Edited by: Kurtz Weber on 16/02/2007 20:06:23
Do the whole mob of you realy, I mean realy think that this is due to some kind of DEV involment? Are u realy that uninteligent so you think that anyone from CCP would risk people massivly leaving their game just to see BoB win or just to see the titan go boom? If you lot are realy convinced into stuff u're saying then your stupidity can't be measured... realy...

Cupdeez
Caldari
Out of Order
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:09:00 - [482]
 

Originally by: Zeveron
Some questions:

1. When the Titan logged off, were there any hostiles at the system?
2. Warped he in a DSS to log off?
3. D2 absolute sure that the DSS (if any) not busted?

And some facts:

You guys know that when you log off in a system, ur ship stays in space for 30s to (sometimes) 2 minutes? and thats w/o any aggro timer.
Plenty of time to scan you out.

So let see what could have happened if a hostile covert ops was in system:

1. Titan logs off
2. Covert scan him out.
3. He aggro the titan, and the titan gets a 15m aggro timer
4. Titan pilot tries to login, but he canned bcs of many ppl shooting at him
5. He panics, ctrl-q, try again, the same (try to login in space with 40 ppl shooting at you, to c what happens)

I dont say it was that way, but how it can be done.
I got probed out that way, but know i ve learned it :-)


No this is no true...

we scanned someone out the other day and tried to kill him but because we didn't get aggro before he logged he only stand around for about 60 sec. and his ship just dissapeard.. We tried to scan it out because we all fired at him but it never came up on scanner.

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:09:00 - [483]
 

Originally by: Shirei
What exactly is supposed to have caused this aggro timer? The last kill by WOTANKN on the D2 killboard is a whole 3 days earlier.

Unless I'm mistaken, nobody said he was agro'd, but if there was a covert watching the POS from where he logged off, that gives him a full 2 minutes to scan him out.

Now... I don't know if the Titan logged out directly from the POS, but here is what I do know if he did:
- A probing covert can finish a scan in under 50 seconds with fair skills.
- Warping off as you log means that you are within 1 million km of the POS.
- The prober can then use the most focused probe available, a successful scan would drop him right on top of the Titan.

Any covert pilot worth his salt and on the ball would nab and agress that titan under those conditions 95% of the time. At that point, it's a matter of a cyno pilot bringing in the capship fleet and them warping to the covert's location... dead titan.

Honestly, we haven't seen any battle report whatsoever. It makes a lot of sense to avoid putting forward theories until we hear the actual story.

Shirei
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:09:00 - [484]
 

Originally by: Evil D4rk
Originally by: Shirei
What exactly is supposed to have caused this aggro timer? The last kill by WOTANKN on the D2 killboard is a whole 3 days earlier.


You dont have to kill anything to be aggro'ed.

Try that in a titan that kills virtually anything with a single shot. Wink

Shirei
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:10:00 - [485]
 

Originally by: Avernus
Originally by: Shirei
What exactly is supposed to have caused this aggro timer? The last kill by WOTANKN on the D2 killboard is a whole 3 days earlier.

Unless I'm mistaken, nobody said he was agro'd, but if there was a covert watching the POS from where he logged off, that gives him a full 2 minutes to scan him out.

Now... I don't know if the Titan logged out directly from the POS, but here is what I do know if he did:
- A probing covert can finish a scan in under 50 seconds with fair skills.
- Warping off as you log means that you are within 1 million km of the POS.
- The prober can then use the most focused probe available, a successful scan would drop him right on top of the Titan.

Any covert pilot worth his salt and on the ball would nab and agress that titan under those conditions 95% of the time. At that point, it's a matter of a cyno pilot bringing in the capship fleet and them warping to the covert's location... dead titan.

Honestly, we haven't seen any battle report whatsoever. It makes a lot of sense to avoid putting forward theories until we hear the actual story.

This is wrong. If you don't have an aggro timer when you log off, you will disappear 1 minute after you arrive at the emergency-warp logoff spot, regardless of if anyone starts shooting you after you logged.

ISD Kreul Intentions


Minmatar
ISD Interstellar Correspondents
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:11:00 - [486]
 

From this post going forward if you forget the alt rules that apply to this forum, you'll receive an email reminding you of them. Should you continue to troll using BoD/BoC/CCP/GM/DevHacks you will also be reminded that those types of posts will not be tolerated.

Thank you.

thoth foc
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:11:00 - [487]
 

congratz BOB, top kill.. YARRRR!!

ScreamingLord Sutch
Minmatar
Hand in Mouth
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:12:00 - [488]
 

Originally by: Avernus
Originally by: Shirei
What exactly is supposed to have caused this aggro timer? The last kill by WOTANKN on the D2 killboard is a whole 3 days earlier.

Unless I'm mistaken, nobody said he was agro'd, but if there was a covert watching the POS from where he logged off, that gives him a full 2 minutes to scan him out.

Now... I don't know if the Titan logged out directly from the POS, but here is what I do know if he did:
- A probing covert can finish a scan in under 50 seconds with fair skills.
- Warping off as you log means that you are within 1 million km of the POS.
- The prober can then use the most focused probe available, a successful scan would drop him right on top of the Titan.

Any covert pilot worth his salt and on the ball would nab and agress that titan under those conditions 95% of the time. At that point, it's a matter of a cyno pilot bringing in the capship fleet and them warping to the covert's location... dead titan.

Honestly, we haven't seen any battle report whatsoever. It makes a lot of sense to avoid putting forward theories until we hear the actual story.


Just to be clear, your understanding of logging mechanics is flawed. If someone logs out WITHOUT aggro then shooting them does not start a 15minute timer. They simply disappear.

If someone logs out WITH aggro and you spend 14minutes scanning them down then you have one minute to kill them before they disappear.

Dont believe me or unsure? Test it.

Takita Yukida
Minmatar
Quo Vadis Domine
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:13:00 - [489]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Ivan K ([email protected])

Cupdeez
Caldari
Out of Order
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:14:00 - [490]
 

Originally by: Cupdeez
Originally by: Zeveron
Some questions:

1. When the Titan logged off, were there any hostiles at the system?
2. Warped he in a DSS to log off?
3. D2 absolute sure that the DSS (if any) not busted?

And some facts:

You guys know that when you log off in a system, ur ship stays in space for 30s to (sometimes) 2 minutes? and thats w/o any aggro timer.
Plenty of time to scan you out.

So let see what could have happened if a hostile covert ops was in system:

1. Titan logs off
2. Covert scan him out.
3. He aggro the titan, and the titan gets a 15m aggro timer
4. Titan pilot tries to login, but he canned bcs of many ppl shooting at him
5. He panics, ctrl-q, try again, the same (try to login in space with 40 ppl shooting at you, to c what happens)

I dont say it was that way, but how it can be done.
I got probed out that way, but know i ve learned it :-)


No this is no true...

we scanned someone out the other day and tried to kill him but because we didn't get aggro before he logged he only stand around for about 60 sec. and his ship just dissapeard.. We tried to scan it out because we all fired at him but it never came up on scanner.



^-=-=- Read it happen to us 3 days ago.

Zeveron
Caldari
Exiled Gathering
HELL4S
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:14:00 - [491]
 

Originally by: Cupdeez
Originally by: Zeveron
Some questions:

1. When the Titan logged off, were there any hostiles at the system?
2. Warped he in a DSS to log off?
3. D2 absolute sure that the DSS (if any) not busted?

And some facts:

You guys know that when you log off in a system, ur ship stays in space for 30s to (sometimes) 2 minutes? and thats w/o any aggro timer.
Plenty of time to scan you out.

So let see what could have happened if a hostile covert ops was in system:

1. Titan logs off
2. Covert scan him out.
3. He aggro the titan, and the titan gets a 15m aggro timer
4. Titan pilot tries to login, but he canned bcs of many ppl shooting at him
5. He panics, ctrl-q, try again, the same (try to login in space with 40 ppl shooting at you, to c what happens)

I dont say it was that way, but how it can be done.
I got probed out that way, but know i ve learned it :-)


No this is no true...

we scanned someone out the other day and tried to kill him but because we didn't get aggro before he logged he only stand around for about 60 sec. and his ship just dissapeard.. We tried to scan it out because we all fired at him but it never came up on scanner.


Hmmm then somthing changed here then.
Fair enough.
Spy with passive targeter maybe?

But lets wait the report :-)

sherbert lemon
Amarr
Intersteller Inventions Inc
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:15:00 - [492]
 

Edited by: sherbert lemon on 16/02/2007 20:24:28
Edited by: sherbert lemon on 16/02/2007 20:23:53
Edited by: sherbert lemon on 16/02/2007 20:14:37
kk.

People are blaming CCP saying there omfg HaXors and that these ppl quit, well tbh, if u had enough sense to realise that whatever happened it probably didnt affect u all unless ofc ure d2 or something, maybe u shld go find another game :S

1 CCP guy goes Corrupt, happens to be helping BoB - well, they are 5th biggest alliance in game so probability of it being them is high.
BoB win lots of fights - they are all experienced and know the game and are mostly veterans, this should be expected that they are decent players
A CCP employee who works on admin says well done - if you cant say well done to some guys who may have just executed a very good maneuveur for all this guy knows, then you shouldnt waste ure life posting on supposedly intellectual eve-o forums, there is NEVER anything wrong with saying grats, and why do ppl have to make conspiracies about it? hmm
BoB downs a titan - perhaps because of lag/bugs, but its a Game and that happens, CCP can reimburse if it really wasn't d2s fault.

At which point did CCP run scripts and change gameplay to make BoB win, BoB just played a game in which there were probably faults unknown to CCP probably.

I just cant see this, and if CCP really did do this well, ill slap myself.

Also, alotof people in this thread are completely unaffected by what happened, and so why are they going to quit eve when they can still shoot there ebil pirates in there wuiet 0.0 and they can still mine veld in empire, unless ure directly related to this incident in which case ure probably allowed to be a bit angry, so stop giving CCP a hard time about something probably not their fault. I think theyve made a gr8 game and until im proved otherwise i will continue my subscription, seriously, i think CCP need to hear this.
Overall, you made a good game


Edit: i didnt read what i wrote so lots of spelling errors/stuff and i know theres lots of grammar errors, o well, u get the jist i hope :)

Edit 2: Lol, i have to say this is quite funneh - at the top of my screen in the blue windows bar it says - EVE Online | EVE..(bladeblahdeblah) | D2 T*t - Windows Internet Explorer (if that edits out its d2 titan but with the "an" missing)

zepter
Caldari
Divine Interventions
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:15:00 - [493]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Ivan K ([email protected])

Kozak
Caldari
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:15:00 - [494]
 

Originally by: Avernus
Originally by: Shirei
What exactly is supposed to have caused this aggro timer? The last kill by WOTANKN on the D2 killboard is a whole 3 days earlier.

Unless I'm mistaken, nobody said he was agro'd, but if there was a covert watching the POS from where he logged off, that gives him a full 2 minutes to scan him out.

Now... I don't know if the Titan logged out directly from the POS, but here is what I do know if he did:
- A probing covert can finish a scan in under 50 seconds with fair skills.
- Warping off as you log means that you are within 1 million km of the POS.
- The prober can then use the most focused probe available, a successful scan would drop him right on top of the Titan.

Any covert pilot worth his salt and on the ball would nab and agress that titan under those conditions 95% of the time. At that point, it's a matter of a cyno pilot bringing in the capship fleet and them warping to the covert's location... dead titan.

Honestly, we haven't seen any battle report whatsoever. It makes a lot of sense to avoid putting forward theories until we hear the actual story.


If you log and you get scanned out before you dissapear, you don't get aggro. If you closed your client before anyone shot you, your timer is the default timer, 60 seconds, then you just dissapear.

Darth Sith
Caldari
Genbuku.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:16:00 - [495]
 

Mkay ..

I am not one to jump to conclusions .. so when I heard of this exploit .. a number of my alliance mates checked it out .. guess what .. it does exist and the exploit works ..

What does that mean ?

It means that once again BOB MAY have managed to use exploitation of game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage. This also begs the question; How does it seem to be that the alliance that makes use of this exploit just happens to be the same Band of ***** that got their noses bloodied over having cheating dev's in their ranks. Lets face it, it would be a dev that would be the one to expose this issue unless you know of anyone else out there that happens to go around shooting wrecks of logged off players while scanning to see what happens ..?

As a paying player of Eve, the simple fact that a dev or ccp employee is allowed to hold a position of power in game completely baffles me and quite simply insults me. A dev is someone we have to inheritly trust as they are intimate with the internal mechanics of the game and are thus in possesion of very tempting data.

Discovering a Dev in BOB, an alliance that prides itself on "doing whatever it takes" is no different then finding out that one of the guys that wrote the code for your bank's firewall is also nightlighting in a hacker group breaking into the same bank. They are both absolutely inexcusable.

Every where I go in game I see it constantly where people are fed up with :

a) devs involvement
b) exploits not being addressed / punished severely
c) moderators shutting down every thread that tries to convey the fustration

IMHO, a complete investigation should be done into this and if warranted, the titan returned in addition to the exploiters recieving bans ..

That begs the other questions .. If it is returned, how do you make up for the titan being removed from theater and the impact it would have had on the campaign if this had not occured. How will CCP/ BOB save face on this one ?

This is not a rant, this is my attempt to verbalize my complete dismay at the current state of eve. I fell in love with EVE a long time ago and it used to bring me great pleasure in achiving the next goal. Now I find that I have to struggle to remain positive on the aspects of the game that still work and find a way to stop myself from just canceling my subscription(s)...

Please, for the sake of the future of EVE, get this fixed and admit when things are wrong... without us, the players, you are nothing CCP ..



Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:16:00 - [496]
 

17 pages, nothing actually close to an explanation as to what happened.

Just "LOL GOOD WORK BOBZ YOU ARE UBER, I KISS YOUR ASS SO YOU MUST BE 100% LEGIT"

and,

"OMG BOBZ USED HAX AND SPACE ALIENS".

Can we get some actual logic in this thread please?

Or a ****ing GM to look at logs?

Christ.

Knerf
Gallente
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:16:00 - [497]
 

*snip* Please do not discuss moderation on the forums - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:17:00 - [498]
 

Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch
Originally by: Avernus
Originally by: Shirei
What exactly is supposed to have caused this aggro timer? The last kill by WOTANKN on the D2 killboard is a whole 3 days earlier.

Unless I'm mistaken, nobody said he was agro'd, but if there was a covert watching the POS from where he logged off, that gives him a full 2 minutes to scan him out.

Now... I don't know if the Titan logged out directly from the POS, but here is what I do know if he did:
- A probing covert can finish a scan in under 50 seconds with fair skills.
- Warping off as you log means that you are within 1 million km of the POS.
- The prober can then use the most focused probe available, a successful scan would drop him right on top of the Titan.

Any covert pilot worth his salt and on the ball would nab and agress that titan under those conditions 95% of the time. At that point, it's a matter of a cyno pilot bringing in the capship fleet and them warping to the covert's location... dead titan.

Honestly, we haven't seen any battle report whatsoever. It makes a lot of sense to avoid putting forward theories until we hear the actual story.


Just to be clear, your understanding of logging mechanics is flawed. If someone logs out WITHOUT aggro then shooting them does not start a 15minute timer. They simply disappear.

If someone logs out WITH aggro and you spend 14minutes scanning them down then you have one minute to kill them before they disappear.

Dont believe me or unsure? Test it.

Fair enough, I'm certainly as prone to misunderstanding Eve mechanics as the next person.

Kozak
Caldari
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:17:00 - [499]
 

On the other hand, if you shoot that person's can, you can keep him in space for 2 hours. I'm sure the titan has many cans littering the battlefield.

Brisi
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:17:00 - [500]
 

Originally by: AMD383
http://freenet-homepage.de/winchip2/time.PNG
and hear whit time 5s for Shrike to replay!Shocked


Yeah, no way anyone can manage to type "Thank You" in less than 5 seconds. That's so ****ing unbelievable it must be hax! He sooooo knew that the Dev would write thatw, so he had his "Thank You" reply copied and readied. OMGWTFHAX!

/emote puts on tinfoil-hat and climbs under the table. Majorleague baseball will get us ALL! YOU HEAR ME???!!! THEY'LL KILL US ALL!!!!!

Darth Sith
Caldari
Genbuku.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:18:00 - [501]
 

*snip* - Please don't discuss moderation on the forums. Email us instead - [email protected] -Ivan K

Caledric
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:18:00 - [502]
 

Originally by: Takita Yukida
What I do not understand with the wreck exploit theory here is the fact that the titan supposidly sat in a POS for 3 hours.

How on earth was there any wreck left to be exploited at all if he did do nothing for 3 hours?

being idle -> no wrecks generated -> no wrecks to be exploited

somehow there seems to be a slight discrepancy about the wreck theory Rolling Eyes


A wreck can be kept alive for days simply by shooting it once every hour or so with a low damage weapon. You don't even have to do damage, just engage it somehow. I've kept a wreck alive for 4 days before doing this. And D2 did kill several folks with the DD so its entirely possible that this method was used.

Grimeh
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:19:00 - [503]
 

Originally by: Kozak
Shooting a wreck of a pilot, activates teh aggro timer, if he logged off and they scan him out and aggro him, YOU DO NOT GET AGGRO TIMER IF YOU LOG BEFORE THE AGGRO HAPPENED. It's the same thing that happens when people log off in bubbles, they still warp out and dissapear in 30 seconds.

CCP really has their heads up their asses to allow a Titan to get destroyed like this. Very poor show again CCP.

The only way they could have gotten aggro on the Titan is to shoot his can, which is an exploit and is petitionable.


So how was this wreck created?

FGxHalsey
Caldari
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:19:00 - [504]
 

Edited by: FGxHalsey on 16/02/2007 20:16:50
Ok, did BoB exploit a bug? Probably. I find the circumstances behind the titan loss to be a bit too fishy. BoB also have a history of such 'tactics' so it doesn't suprise me at all.

Did CCP help them? No I don't think so. I think the admin should have bookmarked the sight and not said anything in local. CCP needs to avoid all appearances of impropriety to restore the trust that the users had in them and that includes any public association with BoB... even innocent ones.

Ghen
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:20:00 - [505]
 

Originally by: Cupdeez

No this is no true...

we scanned someone out the other day and tried to kill him but because we didn't get aggro before he logged he only stand around for about 60 sec. and his ship just dissapeard.. We tried to scan it out because we all fired at him but it never came up on scanner.


Actually it's true, you're missing the step where the person who logged out logs back in within 15 minutes of you shooting at him which gives him the aggression timer. You disappear from space in 60 seconds if you log out without aggro even if someone shoots at you afterwards BUT if you log back in again during the next 15 minutes you will be aggressed.

Shamis Orzoz
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:20:00 - [506]
 

Questions that should be answered by CCP:

1. Was the titan killed in under 2 minutes?
2. Was the titan aggroed?
3. If the titan was aggroed? How was it aggroed, and by who?

The only way I can see this kill happening is if they:
a) managed to probe it and kill it in under 2 minutes (seems unlikely)
b) Wreck exploit.
c) Whatever system bug or unknown exploit that causes people to stay in space for a very long time with no aggro timer (happened to many of my corpmates in jv1v)
d) The titan was somehow aggroed by a friendly pilot and didn't see it. This could've been a spy, or just a ******. But this option seems very unlikely since he was in a pos...(although I hear there is an exploit to lock people in pos that I don't know about).

If bob, d2, or ccp would care to answer these questions then I'm sure the community would be placated. If they killed the titan in 2 minutes, then good job. If they somehow managed to aggro the titan without him knowing it via a spy or whatever then also a good job. Both events seem unlikely though.

Shamis

Raivi
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:20:00 - [507]
 

Edited by: Raivi on 16/02/2007 20:17:05
Originally by: Grimeh

So how was this wreck created?


When the titan killed somebody hours before. (Hypothetically)

Sexorella hotz
Caldari
SexyCor
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:20:00 - [508]
 

Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: Crystal Starbreeze
You know i have to call Haxx on this. Second titan lost all with BOB being the one taking it down and now a GM response quickly after.

I would like to see CCP's response that everything was fine, no exploit, Gm help etc. Two titans killed undefended by a Corp known to have cheated with GM help in the past. Seems fishy to me. How bout an official post. Its sad that now half of EVE players feel their is an exploit or GM help. CCP has lost the trust of the eve universe and now they have to build that trust back up. This would be an good first step.

I am neutral in this war but really this just doesn't seem right from any angle.


Rolling Eyes

People using logic and 'facts' like this is why I think democracy is doomed as a long term form of world government.

So if the GM's said 'no, no hacks involved' would that be enough? No of course not.

The only cheater so far has been a dev who made mostly ammo BPO's and one good ship bpo. No 'Corp known to have chated with GM help' was involved in two titan kills. BoB is the real victim in this scandal but instead you get people like the op posting emo.

Makes me glad I'm on the side I'm on.



What's the point of them posting? Everyone's already made their conclusions, evidence or not.

Slayton Ford
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:21:00 - [509]
 

It seems odd that you should not expect to be safe logging off in a PoS. Your in a safe spot yet the act of logging puts you in a non-safe spot.

A simple fix to this is to allow ships to be anchored. When a ship is anchored, it connot be moved so therefore the emergency warp cannot kick in and move the ship to a non-safe spot. Now its safe to log in a PoS with a agression timer.

zepter
Caldari
Divine Interventions
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:22:00 - [510]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Ivan K ([email protected])


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