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blankseplocked Speed nerf leaves minmatar what ?
 
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Nyck
Not Your Common Killers
Posted - 2007.02.17 14:03:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 14:04:17
Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 14:00:39
From Dev Blog:
"Another reason has to do with game mechanic and can be summed up to pretty much the same arguement as when warp core stabilizers where balanced. When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight. That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off."
Minmatar have a broken description. According to the blog, hit and run tactics are not supposed to be viable.
Change the description, and leave Minmatar alone.
My advice on the description change?
"Minmatar aren't good tanks. Playing EVE as a Minmatar is playing EVE in hard mode."
Oh, and before any of you flame me, let me explain. I'm not whining. I prefer to play games in hard mode, and I like Minmatar. I just think the dev's should have accurate descriptions on the races, that match their true feelings. (See above blog excerpt)


Jim McGregor
Posted - 2007.02.17 14:49:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/02/2007 14:45:51
Originally by: xenodia


Minmatar will still be faster than other races ships. I just wont have to waste my time trying to chase down a typhoon going "Ludicrous Speed" (10km/second) anymore.




Spaceballs ftw. Wink

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.17 15:08:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Nyck
Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 14:04:17
Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 14:00:39
From Dev Blog:
"Another reason has to do with game mechanic and can be summed up to pretty much the same arguement as when warp core stabilizers where balanced. When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight. That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off."
Minmatar have a broken description. According to the blog, hit and run tactics are not supposed to be viable.
Change the description, and leave Minmatar alone.
My advice on the description change?
"Minmatar aren't good tanks. Playing EVE as a Minmatar is playing EVE in hard mode."
Oh, and before any of you flame me, let me explain. I'm not whining. I prefer to play games in hard mode, and I like Minmatar. I just think the dev's should have accurate descriptions on the races, that match their true feelings. (See above blog excerpt)




You misunderstand the blog. Speed tanks still work, speed still works, its just not riculously broken.

By that arguement we should bring back the gank-a-geddon because "lasers are super weapons".

Gameplay comes before fluff. Nanobattleships are too riduclous at the moment, that is about it. Speed will still work, dont worry.

Nyck
Not Your Common Killers
Posted - 2007.02.17 16:41:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 16:38:24
Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 16:38:13
Apparently you didn't read the part of the blog I quoted, or what I said about it.
Try reading it again.
Minmatar are supposed to be hit and run tactics users. The blog specifically states that they don't want hit and run tactics in combat.
Before telling me that I'm wrong, try reading and understanding what I said.
I said nothing of speed tanks.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.17 16:48:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Nyck
Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 16:38:24
Edited by: Nyck on 17/02/2007 16:38:13
Apparently you didn't read the part of the blog I quoted, or what I said about it.
Try reading it again.
Minmatar are supposed to be hit and run tactics users. The blog specifically states that they don't want hit and run tactics in combat.
Before telling me that I'm wrong, try reading and understanding what I said.
I said nothing of speed tanks.



No, it says they dont want ships entering and leaving combat with impunity.

Nyck
Not Your Common Killers
Posted - 2007.02.18 00:16:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Nyck on 18/02/2007 00:17:59
Which is exactly what a hit and run tactic is. Thank you for making my point, Mr. Obvious.

Hit-and-run tactics is a tactical doctrine where the purpose of the combat involved is not to seize control of territory, but to inflict damage on a target and immediately exit the area to avoid the enemy's defense and/or retaliation.

Arian Snow
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.02.18 01:41:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Kael D'mende
Ok, so i read the golden words of Tux, but besides all the amarr that are jumping up and down, what about races like Minmatar that has the role of hit and run ?
Seriously aint it time to drop the broken role for minmatar and find something that is actually usefull ?

anyway just felt like whining abit :P




We will be left with our superior warfare target painting.


Dont count on it I hear they are introduction Target Paint defence modules now! Rolling Eyes

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2007.02.18 01:49:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: HankMurphy on 18/02/2007 01:47:03
while my own opinions on speed ships can be read in several other threads, they are all based on what direction i think combat on a large scale, from blob to smallgang should be going.

all that crap aside, what will minmatar be left with now that we know the nerf bat is being warmed up?

REGARDLESS i'm sure ccp isn't gonna just nerf the crap outta us (i hope), so a very real possibility will be that we will again be the speed RACE. Its been said time and time again, the nanophoon has been around a LONG time. But its history hasnt' consisted of 6-10km/s normally, and the reason it was possible was ITS A FAST battleship. Its a role that makes sense for it and shouldn't be one that just any other battleship can mimic (most other bs either too slow/hvy , dont have the slot layout, or dont have the missile slots to be viable in combat)

As many others have said, the issue today is that every ship can be a nanoship (well, istabship would be more appropriate term). So i'm gonna remain sceptical but optimistic that while speed setups wont be so uber postnerf, when the debris settles minnie will still have a combat advantage of speed.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2007.02.18 01:52:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Arian Snow
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Kael D'mende
Ok, so i read the golden words of Tux, but besides all the amarr that are jumping up and down, what about races like Minmatar that has the role of hit and run ?
Seriously aint it time to drop the broken role for minmatar and find something that is actually usefull ?

anyway just felt like whining abit :P




We will be left with our superior warfare target painting.


Dont count on it I hear they are introduction Target Paint defence modules now! Rolling Eyes


really appreciate if you could link us in the right direction on where they said they were doin that. i'd be pretty shocked, especially since we still dont have a counter to MISSILES (except speed, which.... is gonna get nerfed)

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2007.02.18 05:05:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Shaemell Buttleson on 18/02/2007 05:06:29
Edited by: Shaemell Buttleson on 18/02/2007 05:04:48

Originally by: HankMurphy
Originally by: Arian Snow
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Kael D'mende
Ok, so i read the golden words of Tux, but besides all the amarr that are jumping up and down, what about races like Minmatar that has the role of hit and run ?
Seriously aint it time to drop the broken role for minmatar and find something that is actually usefull ?

anyway just felt like whining abit :P




We will be left with our superior warfare target painting.


Dont count on it I hear they are introduction Target Paint defence modules now! Rolling Eyes


really appreciate if you could link us in the right direction on where they said they were doin that. i'd be pretty shocked, especially since we still dont have a counter to MISSILES (except speed, which.... is gonna get nerfed)



I do remember something in a devblog ages ago about it being logical to make a module that reduces sigrad on ships since there was one to make targeted ships have a bigger sigrad.

Oh well at least we can still web the buggers though!


Found it!

Linkage








VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
Posted - 2007.02.18 08:19:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: VJ Maverick on 18/02/2007 08:19:03
Originally by: Nyck
Edited by: Nyck on 18/02/2007 00:17:59
Which is exactly what a hit and run tactic is. Thank you for making my point, Mr. Obvious.

Hit-and-run tactics is a tactical doctrine where the purpose of the combat involved is not to seize control of territory, but to inflict damage on a target and immediately exit the area to avoid the enemy's defense and/or retaliation.


Let me explain hit-and-run tactics to you Mr. Not-So-Obvious. "Hit-and-run" in the context of military doctrine refers to a swift attack and an equally swift withdrawal. ONCE per engagement. Hit-and-run is NOT what you are purporting it to be - namely the act of hitting and running dozens of times within the same engagement. What you are describing is more analogous to "multiple strafing runs", NOT Hit and Run as it is understood in military circles and hopefully intended in the game.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.18 11:16:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Nyck
Edited by: Nyck on 18/02/2007 00:17:59
Which is exactly what a hit and run tactic is. Thank you for making my point, Mr. Obvious.

Hit-and-run tactics is a tactical doctrine where the purpose of the combat involved is not to seize control of territory, but to inflict damage on a target and immediately exit the area to avoid the enemy's defense and/or retaliation.


No it is not, if you can enter and exit combat with impunity then you are in a position of utter domination when you can also kill said target.

Fullerton
Minmatar
The Final Stand.
Posted - 2007.02.18 18:00:00 - [73]
 

To Be Honist Im Just getting fed up with nerf patches coming out every few months, complaining i want this nerfed this is not working etc to many cooks spoil the broth. Theres allways somthing the eve community is not happy with and 1s they get there nano nerf , there will just move onto another part of the game to nerf Mad

Dark Flare
Caldari
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2007.02.18 18:06:00 - [74]
 

I haven't read the whole thread, so someone may have already mentioned this...

Isn't this going to leave the Vaga a bit screwed? It relies on a speed tank, if the speed is nerfed.. then, er, oh dear? To make this nerf NOT ruin Minmatar, they'd have to lower tracking speeds on turrets, and lower the explosion velocity on all missiles.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.18 18:25:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Dark Flare
I haven't read the whole thread, so someone may have already mentioned this...

Isn't this going to leave the Vaga a bit screwed? It relies on a speed tank, if the speed is nerfed.. then, er, oh dear? To make this nerf NOT ruin Minmatar, they'd have to lower tracking speeds on turrets, and lower the explosion velocity on all missiles.


Well, the vagabond doesnt really speed tank, it range tanks and then runs if it gets in over its head, even with pre-kali speeds, it cant track targets with the kind of transversal that it can put out.

Anyway, to asuage the "ZOMG NO SPEED" thing

dev blog gives a number for about what he thinks is O.K. for a ship to go and sets this number as "x20" modifier on base speed[for his base idea]

This means that the following values are at the top end of "O.K."

Typhoon = 3000 m/s
Vagabond = 4700 m/s
Rifter = 6400 m/s
Rupture = 4100 m/s
Tempest = 2800 m/s
Dominix = 2400 m/s
Megathron = 2500 m/s
Maelstrom = 2300 m/s
Claw = 9500 m/s
Crusader = 9100 m/s

Which are plenty fine numbers. If you can get a blaster-thron up to 2500m/s with a tank, i commend you for your "leet" skills and fat wallet.

Frigates still cap plenty fast, and interceptors cap extraordinalily fast.

As well, bursts of speed above that should be possible due to it being a cap solution, so if your claw or crusader had the cahones and need to bust out to 15km/s for a cycle or two then it wouldnt be an issue.

Anyway, 4.7km/s is plenty fast for a vagabond.

Aterna
Minmatar
Talon's Grasp
Posted - 2007.02.18 18:33:00 - [76]
 

If you haven't read the whole thread, and you haven't read the blog, please don't post.

Speedtanking is not going to get nerfed for the vagabond. If you read the blog, then you would read where Tuxford states that he is going to be careful to not kill the Vagabond's primary attribute: Speed.

The balance will not affect the game in any way except to keep nanoships from being able to engage and kill their targets without any real danger to themselves.

How many minmatar ships rely on speedtank? Not many, that's the answer. Most minmatar ships bigger then a frigate, aside from the Vagabond and Stabber, are not able to use their natural speed to any real advantage. The Jaguar is fast, yes. However, it doesn't have the agility to engage an interceptor.

You are all blowing this way out of proportion.

You speak of hit and run tactics, but all you really want to do is keep your get out of jail free card. Well too bad, if you get caught, you do not get to pass GO and collect your loot, you go straight to your pod.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.02.18 19:59:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 18/02/2007 19:57:37
Yes, if that extreme speeds = extreme MWD cap will come through need the vaga will prolly get an additional 25% on top on that due to it's speed bonus. Tux mentioned specifically that the vaga needs an extra consideration due to it. This would boost the vagas non-penality speed to 6050 m/s.

Which is very reasonabe IMO. At that speed it cannot hit much with med guns in either way. And it would still be able to use higher speeds to flee if needed, it would just not be able to sustain these speeds. Which does not really matter in such situations.

That cap penality at > 20* base speed is actually a very reasonable solution to the nanoplague when you think about it.


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