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Tasty Burger
Posted - 2007.02.16 15:04:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Tasty Burger on 16/02/2007 15:02:05
Speed tanks still need to be viable. Afterburners are useless for normal pvp because its not just not getting hit, you need the speed of a MWD for many things like getting out of bubbles, tackling, and escaping.

Minmatar should get bonuses to afterburner velocity tbh, to make them almost as fast as MWDs. That way they can speed tank. I'd also say autocannons should track much better, but well... can't have everything.

Nerfing MWD will break the game in unexpected ways.

DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.02.16 15:07:00 - [32]
 

oh ffs stop whining until you know what actually happening. minmatar hit and run tactics worked fine before going 3-4000m/s in a vaga and will in future 'if' they nerf it. but doing 8k in a vaga is silly. this is what they are proposing to change. and i say again 'proposing'.

show a little trust in the devs that they do actually understand balancing and complain if u don't like what happens.


DE



Tasty Burger
Posted - 2007.02.16 15:17:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Tasty Burger on 16/02/2007 15:17:24
Originally by: DarkElf
oh ffs stop whining until you know what actually happening. minmatar hit and run tactics worked fine before going 3-4000m/s in a vaga and will in future 'if' they nerf it. but doing 8k in a vaga is silly. this is what they are proposing to change. and i say again 'proposing'.




Why is it silly? Its not like you can track anything at that speed, its only used for escaping and getting a tackle, which is basically what the Vagabond is for. Its nothing like a nanophoon. And that speed is only when you pimp the thing out with snakes... an interceptor can go about twice as fast when equally pimped. I'd go as far as saying the Vagabond is almost pointless with the nanophoon as it is.

Cruiser-sized hulls are not unbalanced at all right now, its only nanoBS that are the problem. Nano BS make many cruisers pointless.

M00dy
Minmatar
Killed In Action
Posted - 2007.02.16 15:34:00 - [34]
 

Two quotes from Tux really makes me worried for Eve.

Quote:
Combat in EVE was always supposed to be more about tactics and strategy rather than twitch movement. I know a lot of the community enjoy that style of gameplay but it just isn't EVE.


No more twitch movement in Eve. This nerf is going to be more than just rolling back i-stabs.

This one has me very angry.

Quote:
When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight.


This means no Guerrilla Warfare. No small gangs being able to harass a large blob. No more hit and run tactics.

Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2007.02.16 16:28:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kagura Nikon

the resistance bonus on Caldari are far better than the booster bonus. The minmatar shield tankers have less mids than caldari and far less shield HP.

No we cannot tank as well. But speed is mostly intended to rule out distance of engagement, and not be an absolute tank.


Nope. False, try again.


Resistance bonus is:

lv 1: 5.26% effective rep amount and HP boost
lv 2: 11.1% " "
lv 3: 17.64% " "
lv 4: 25% " "
lv 5: 33.33% " "

Boost amount bonus is:

Lv 1: 7.5% rep amount
lv 2: 15% " "
lv 3: 22.5% " "
lv 4: 30% " "
lv 5: 37.5% " "

The resistance bonus has an increasing return, and the rep amount bonus a linear return. The resistance bonus also effectivly boosts HP buffer and passive regen. The boost amount is stronger in absolute terms and stronger at lower skill levels. Many times by clear margins.

This means that even at level 5 ship skill, the maelstrom has the strongest absolute tank in the game. Especialy since boost amp IIs were brought in boosting shield boosting efficiency and quality.


Res bonus:
0% -> 25%
60% -> 70%
40% -> 55%
20% -> 40%

Average res:
30% -> 47.5%

tank mod:
1.43x -> 1.9x

Large Booster:
240 hp
4 sec cycle

With res bonus:
240 * 1.9 = 456 hp
456 / 4 = 114 hp/cycle

with shield booster bonus:
240 * 1.43 * 1.375 = 471.9 hp
471.9 / 4 = 117 hp/cycle

Add in the effective HP increase from the increased resistances (plus the passive recharge increase) and I have no idea how you say shield booster bonus > res bonus. It's been proved many times in the past resistance bonuses are better than the active tanking version.

And while your mentioning shield boost amps, remember you avoid the stacking penalty for fitting resistance module since you have a first built in.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.16 16:31:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 16:30:20
Clearly the "proofs" are wrong because tanking figured are created from a linear and predictable system which can be normalized at each indiviudal step.

If you tank 100 DPS and get a 37.5% boost amount then you tank 137.5 dps if you get a 25% resistance boost you tank 133.33 dps

Its that simple. The Maelstrom has the best absolute tank in the game. It has a smaller HP buffer than the Rokh[but capless weapons], but its still the best absolute tank in the game.

As well, boost bonuses are better the lower the ship skill is. With resistance boosts getting better the higher the ship skill.

All about trade-offs.

Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.02.16 16:36:00 - [37]
 

When will CCP realize that gentle tweaking is better than mass overhaul?

Nano's and istabs need a stacking penalty. That is all.

But of course CCP decides that rather than just nerfing that, they're going to nerf ALL high speed combat. What good is a ceptor that can't run its MWD forever? Seriously? WTS: a clue.

Shamis



Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.16 16:39:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
When will CCP realize that gentle tweaking is better than mass overhaul?

Nano's and istabs need a stacking penalty. That is all.

But of course CCP decides that rather than just nerfing that, they're going to nerf ALL high speed combat. What good is a ceptor that can't run its MWD forever? Seriously? WTS: a clue.

Shamis





They arent looking to nerf all high speed combat, read the blog and his comments.

If i were you, i would take that clue off the market before someone buys it and you are left out on the cold.

Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2007.02.16 16:49:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 16:30:20
Clearly the "proofs" are wrong because tanking figured are created from a linear and predictable system which can be normalized at each indiviudal step.

If you tank 100 DPS and get a 37.5% boost amount then you tank 137.5 dps if you get a 25% resistance boost you tank 133.33 dps

Its that simple. The Maelstrom has the best absolute tank in the game. It has a smaller HP buffer than the Rokh[but capless weapons], but its still the best absolute tank in the game.

As well, boost bonuses are better the lower the ship skill is. With resistance boosts getting better the higher the ship skill.

All about trade-offs.


Do some reading up.

You still think that the highest hp repped = best tank... that isn't the case! Read that topic, cos it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.16 16:54:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 16:30:20
Clearly the "proofs" are wrong because tanking figured are created from a linear and predictable system which can be normalized at each indiviudal step.

If you tank 100 DPS and get a 37.5% boost amount then you tank 137.5 dps if you get a 25% resistance boost you tank 133.33 dps

Its that simple. The Maelstrom has the best absolute tank in the game. It has a smaller HP buffer than the Rokh[but capless weapons], but its still the best absolute tank in the game.

As well, boost bonuses are better the lower the ship skill is. With resistance boosts getting better the higher the ship skill.

All about trade-offs.


Do some reading up.

You still think that the highest hp repped = best tank... that isn't the case! Read that topic, cos it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.


Yes, what part of "best absolute tank" do you not get?

Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2007.02.16 17:04:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2007 16:30:20
Clearly the "proofs" are wrong because tanking figured are created from a linear and predictable system which can be normalized at each indiviudal step.

If you tank 100 DPS and get a 37.5% boost amount then you tank 137.5 dps if you get a 25% resistance boost you tank 133.33 dps

Its that simple. The Maelstrom has the best absolute tank in the game. It has a smaller HP buffer than the Rokh[but capless weapons], but its still the best absolute tank in the game.

As well, boost bonuses are better the lower the ship skill is. With resistance boosts getting better the higher the ship skill.

All about trade-offs.


Do some reading up.

You still think that the highest hp repped = best tank... that isn't the case! Read that topic, cos it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.


Yes, what part of "best absolute tank" do you not get?


boosting != absolute tank... shesh.

Absolute = complete, perfect, positive, certain, unconditional... ect ect

So your statement is saying the maelstroms tank is the most complete/perfect tank when it is actually the largest hp repairing tank.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.02.16 17:09:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kagura Nikon

the resistance bonus on Caldari are far better than the booster bonus. The minmatar shield tankers have less mids than caldari and far less shield HP.

No we cannot tank as well. But speed is mostly intended to rule out distance of engagement, and not be an absolute tank.


Nope. False, try again.


Resistance bonus is:

lv 1: 5.26% effective rep amount and HP boost
lv 2: 11.1% " "
lv 3: 17.64% " "
lv 4: 25% " "
lv 5: 33.33% " "

Boost amount bonus is:

Lv 1: 7.5% rep amount
lv 2: 15% " "
lv 3: 22.5% " "
lv 4: 30% " "
lv 5: 37.5% " "

The resistance bonus has an increasing return, and the rep amount bonus a linear return. The resistance bonus also effectivly boosts HP buffer and passive regen. The boost amount is stronger in absolute terms and stronger at lower skill levels. Many times by clear margins.

This means that even at level 5 ship skill, the maelstrom has the strongest absolute tank in the game. Especialy since boost amp IIs were brought in boosting shield boosting efficiency and quality.


that is only true if your repair capability is overally equal to the income damage. If the income damage is much higher than your tank capability (like in 99% of cases of PVP) the resistances will mean a lot more. Just make the calculations.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.02.16 17:15:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
The only proposition i Dint liked was of makinf each nano,over and istab affect a single thing. That would make the modules as useless as the overdrive its now (really who uses them?)



The reason Overdrives aren't used isn't because they only affect one stat, it's because nanos affect two. If you take away the nanos' multiple effects, bam people have to decide whether they want top speed (overdrives), agility(nanos), or MWD/AB efficiency(istabs).


it is.. istabs had ony 1 bennefit. No one used. Now they have 2. pepole use it. Most ships don't have enough spare lows to use this system. My autopest have 1 spare low. A single nano is a perfecct solution. That gives the extra speed and agility i need.


Also overdrives have a too big penalty. Cargo is too much important in combat.

Jerick Ludhowe
Southern Cross Empire
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2007.02.16 17:17:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Omega Man
Presumably it will leave Minnies faster than the other ships being speed nerfed.


Shhhh.... stop being reasonable this is the Eve-O forums. Where baseless un thought out whines are king.


I do agree with you though. Ballance is relative and if everything is effected by a nerf to speed then I don't see the problem. Matari ships will still be able to dictate range however they will actually be vulnerable to ships if they fack up rather than being able to leave whenever they want (talking about nano ships not all matari).

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.16 17:19:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Mila Prestoc


boosting != absolute tank... shesh.

Absolute = complete, perfect, positive, certain, unconditional... ect ect

So your statement is saying the maelstroms tank is the most complete/perfect tank when it is actually the largest hp repairing tank.


No, its just a confusion about what absolute means and what relative means on your part.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.16 17:24:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
snip


Actualy its true when

HP/.75<DPS/rep1 - DPS/rep2

And in absolute terms its true.

And the shield tank that the maelstrom puts up is very strong.

Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2007.02.16 17:26:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Mila Prestoc


boosting != absolute tank... shesh.

Absolute = complete, perfect, positive, certain, unconditional... ect ect

So your statement is saying the maelstroms tank is the most complete/perfect tank when it is actually the largest hp repairing tank.


No, its just a confusion about what absolute means and what relative means on your part.


Or maybe you should pick up a dictionary so you don't use phases/terms that can be taken multiple ways.

Maelstrom != best tank.
Maelstrom = best shield boosting.
Tank is a lot more than just boosting.
Please, twist that one...

xenodia
Gallente
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION
ORPHANS OF EVE
Posted - 2007.02.16 18:27:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Monkey Spankah
no what he is saying is that once CCP nerfs every race ship that nanos are useless were does that leave minmitar who are supose to be fast and gain thsoe speeds using nanos, the only way i see to stop this nerfign minmitar is add a bonus that cause the new negative effects of nanos and mwds to not effect minmitar ships.


Minmatar will still be faster than other races ships. I just wont have to waste my time trying to chase down a typhoon going "Ludicrous Speed" (10km/second) anymore.


madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2007.02.16 18:50:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Xeliya
I will leave them just like they were before Kali, after kali most ships could go another 2km/s faster. Ive seen nano phoons and nano domis going faster then my crow. It is also possible to get ceptors up over 30km/s if you will use implants.


over 30 km/s LOLOL i would love to see those calculations...

GankYou
Goldman Sachs Finance and Trade
Posted - 2007.02.16 18:51:00 - [50]
 

:

Lowest mass
Highest base speed
Capless weapons
2nd largest drone bays
2nd best DPS
Ability to choose dmg type.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2007.02.16 19:14:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: M00dy
Two quotes from Tux really makes me worried for Eve.

Quote:
Combat in EVE was always supposed to be more about tactics and strategy rather than twitch movement. I know a lot of the community enjoy that style of gameplay but it just isn't EVE.


No more twitch movement in Eve. This nerf is going to be more than just rolling back i-stabs.

This one has me very angry.

Quote:
When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight.


This means no Guerrilla Warfare. No small gangs being able to harass a large blob. No more hit and run tactics.
'hit and run'!=NanoBS.

You can do 'hit and runs' in a blasterthron, you warp in, obliterate the target before they can say "aarrrgh OMG save me pls!!!111" and warp out again...

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2007.02.16 19:17:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: M00dy
Two quotes from Tux really makes me worried for Eve.

Quote:
Combat in EVE was always supposed to be more about tactics and strategy rather than twitch movement. I know a lot of the community enjoy that style of gameplay but it just isn't EVE.


No more twitch movement in Eve. This nerf is going to be more than just rolling back i-stabs.

This one has me very angry.

Quote:
When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight.


This means no Guerrilla Warfare. No small gangs being able to harass a large blob. No more hit and run tactics.
'hit and run'!=NanoBS.

You can do 'hit and runs' in a blasterthron, you warp in, obliterate the target before they can say "aarrrgh OMG save me pls!!!111" and warp out again...


Exactly. The point is you can still take on bigger blobs in small gangs providing you manage to lure some of them away (as often happens), kill it quick, then run off. Sounds liks fine large primate tatics to me.

sgb

Lars Intarestum
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:53:00 - [53]
 

maelstrom != rohk
speed != matar
devs != stupid
gorrila != guerilla

Chavu
Minmatar
GK inc.
Posted - 2007.02.17 08:01:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: GankYou
:

Lowest mass
Highest base speed
Capless weapons
2nd largest drone bays
2nd best DPS
Ability to choose dmg type.


Lowest mass: Not true, have you even tried showing info on ships?

Highest base speed: True, our only bonus.

Capless Weapons: So do caldari (missiles) and Gallente (drones) Hardly a minmatar bonus. Capless guns? Meh, would be awesome if we didn't active tank, since we active tank and need mwd we need cap anyways so meh.

2nd largest drone bays: Not true, have you heard of the Arbitrator or the Harbinger?

2nd highest dps: Not true, depends purely on setup and skills. Those skills are no joke, it takes years to master minmatar.

Ability to choose damage type: Not true. The only races who can do that are Caldari and Gallente with missiles and drones. Minmatar use ammo based on range and total damage. You think we like using explosive and kinetic damage for tech2? please.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.02.17 09:30:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Chavu
Originally by: GankYou
:

Lowest mass
Highest base speed
Capless weapons
2nd largest drone bays
2nd best DPS
Ability to choose dmg type.


Lowest mass: Not true, have you even tried showing info on ships?

Highest base speed: True, our only bonus.

Capless Weapons: So do caldari (missiles) and Gallente (drones) Hardly a minmatar bonus. Capless guns? Meh, would be awesome if we didn't active tank, since we active tank and need mwd we need cap anyways so meh.

2nd largest drone bays: Not true, have you heard of the Arbitrator or the Harbinger?

2nd highest dps: Not true, depends purely on setup and skills. Those skills are no joke, it takes years to master minmatar.

Ability to choose damage type: Not true. The only races who can do that are Caldari and Gallente with missiles and drones. Minmatar use ammo based on range and total damage. You think we like using explosive and kinetic damage for tech2? please.


considering that EM is the most resisted, Kin the second most resisted and ex/em the least resisted tech 2 resistances, and ex is the least resisted damage i would say that yes, you love doing ex/kin for your tech 2 damage.

Now, Minmatar artillery have a problem where they have damage types dependant on range. Autocannon has no such problem, and every minnie pvp character should load up on fusion and phased plasma or phased plasma and barrage, just like every Amarran should have scorch and MF, and every blaster pilot AM and Void.

However, having damage types dependant on range is much much better than not having a choice.

However...

Lowest Mass: No, this is true by a long way, have you even showed info on ships? You seriously think any of Caldari[slowest/heaviest], Amarr[second fastest/second most massive], and Gallente[second slowest/second least massive] have a mass avantage over Minmatar? Bwa?

2nd Largest Dron Bays: For the most part true, the Arbitrator is an abberation, as is the Harbinger.

2nd highest dps: No, you really do have the second highest DPS with just gun and ship skills. No missile skills needed. There are a few ships that have it rough in terms of skills, but those are few and far between.

Ability to choose damage types: Yes, you do and if you dont change damage types regularly, you should not be flying minmatar because you dont know what you are doing.

Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2007.02.17 10:32:00 - [56]
 

I think the root of the problem is this overwhelming need to kill the target.

Super fast ship is warp scrambling you, thus you need to kill superfast ship.

Super fast ship is now webbed, thus easy to kill.

Wouldn't it be better if super fast ships were all about killing you before you could get away? warp scramblers/disruptors didnt actually stop you from warping, just slowed you down? Webbers had a lesser effect, but longer range?

Eve is too much about absolutes to be a game where stuff like speed can really shine in PvP.

kaike
Minmatar
Matrix Solutions
StarFleet Federation
Posted - 2007.02.17 10:34:00 - [57]
 

Imo there is no BestaboveallracesinEve ,it is all based in combo to your skills,ok i admid a few more bonus for us minmar's would be nice ,however we got since Kali the Maelstrom hurricane the last 1 hmm beside the warfare bonus what almost no 1 uses it's nice.

Any1 tryed nanoMael ?YARRRR!! ,i read cappless weapons if you consider Caldari wapons use cap minmar's don't we got tI ammo that does 3 way damge other's don't ect ect to name 1 example.

So stop those tears and be happy for what you've got :)

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.02.17 10:41:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 17/02/2007 10:37:47
Originally by: madaluap
over 30 km/s LOLOL i would love to see those calculations...


Mhh.. let's see how fast we can get a crusader. 2 instabs, 2 domi ODs, gisti a-type MWD, 2 t2 vents, Shaqils, 5% MWD speed, zor's hyper-link, HG snakes, max gang bonus and of cource max skills.

Base speed: (455 + 2*40) * 1.25 * 1.08 * 1.5363 * 1.388125 -> 1540.25

MWD effeciency: 6.61 * 1.25 * 1.05 * 1.05 * 1.31 (speed bonus from reduced mass) * 1.2 * 1.2 -> 17.176

Total speed: 1540.25 * (1 + 17.176) -> 27996 m/s

So, nope, you won't get 30 km/s with a ceptor, but it will come close.
A phoon with the same setup (exept 3 more domi ODs and an additional t2 vent rig) goes 22459 m/s, btw. Or 19250 m/s if you use domi/t2 nanos instead ODs (and unlike the ceptor he will be able to do damage there).

Fredbob
0utbreak
Posted - 2007.02.17 11:13:00 - [59]
 

While I agree the speed thing is overdone atm, speed shouldn't be based on how many low slots you have.. However I really do hope the nerf isn't overdone. As a minnie pilot it's sad to see the game reverting back to tank&gank style of play.

Eve may not be a twitch game but speed should be a tactical choice, far too many minnie ships don't have that racial advantage of speed that they're supposed to have, leaving them as a weaker tank&gank version of another race's ship.


If the speed and nos changes are done well, then fair play I look forward to it - however something tells me it'll end up as a "don't use speed or nos, just a heavy tank and cap boosters" patch :(


Oh, my primary alt is Amarr, so hopefully that'll be overdone too and she'll become uber for once ^^

Wulfgard
Section XIII
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.02.17 13:24:00 - [60]
 

I trust the devs know what they are doing, but applying a broad nerf on all MWDs will cause more harm than good and surely create new issues of balancing.

An arbitrary max speed velocity per ship class hull might have been alot easier (8k/ms for ceptors, 4k/ms for cruisers, 2k/ms for battleships).

Regardless of what is coming next, speed tank should still be a possibility for minmatars, but not for a whale shaped sized bs like the Dominix Rolling Eyes


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