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Kael Kenton
Finis Lumen
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:56:00 - [2371]
 

Originally by: VunnaX
Originally by: VunnaX
If someone in my corp says he is a dev and hand me some bpo or hand it to my ceo, who then give me hac or something for like 30-40 mils, I would not say anything. You all wanna says you would qoit that corp and yell around about it? Or you all would accept those cool stuff for free and stfu about it?


No one answered to my question, prolly cause we all know the answer...


If it didn't feel legit, I'd apply as much peer pressure as I could bring to bear for us to destroy it. And if that didn't work, you can bet your ass they wouldn't be able to shut me up.

Of course, I'm not what I consider "average" in my moral stance... and I feel it's unfortunate. I conceed that most would do what you imply. Past tense, in the case of BoB.

Antiope
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:57:00 - [2372]
 

there have always been rumors about cheating in BOD when something strange happened, might have been DEV's might just unlucky moments, but now all those strange occurances will be directed to the DEV's in BOD. The leaders and admins of the BOB and RKK forums lost my respect whatever happens in the future.

What realy ****es me off is CCP unveiling like 5 % of what realy happened and hoppes the community stops asking questions.

Now a good question, DČ is waiting for their alliance logo since it's creation patch after patch, the file got sent to CCP 10 billion of times, oh wait look whos responsible for allaince logos.
It's not about T2 BPO's beeing cheated, it's about being biased in my opinion, oh yeah we can't prove anything, maybe all our sent files were corrupted, lol.

You can't repair thrust when CCP's employees sink that deep, cheating aside but being biased is the worst thing as a DEV

Oh wait we can't prove anything, so I better shut up

D'an Y'eal
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.02.11 14:59:00 - [2373]
 

Originally by: Goran
(snip)
The game itself hasn't changed.
CCP hasn't changed.
The players haven't changed.



The sad part is how true this is..... of course now that we know CCP are a bunch of cheating *****es we can cancel our accounts can't we?

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:00:00 - [2374]
 

Originally by: Antiope

Now a good question, DČ is waiting for their alliance logo since it's creation patch after patch, the file got sent to CCP 10 billion of times, oh wait look whos responsible for allaince logos.


lol.

Serious?

If CCP were that biased they would have let us use our original Alliance logo design.
They didn't.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:02:00 - [2375]
 

Originally by: Heritor
stuff

Okay.
Same alt buys some stuff from you off the market with dirty ISK.

You get banned.

Fair?

Happy with that?

Just because you have no way of knowing that the ISK is dirty is no defence by your logic, non?

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:08:00 - [2376]
 

Originally by: MrDisposable
Has it been proven that he resides in a country where what he did was a crime?


You are accountable in the country your crime takes place in as well, so it wouldn't matter. If he lives in a non-extraditing country, then it won't matter.

However You'll find that information made public only because it didn't work when used to attempt blackmail, and obtained illegally, will be thrown out of most court rooms, and that person's testimony stricken from the record.

It doesn't matter if something is legal or not for it to violate the EULA, the EULA is a separate contract and breaking the EULA, is breaking the EULA, and CCP are more than allowed to remove you from their game for doing so, regardless of your local laws.

Heritor
Caldari
Hated Raiders
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:11:00 - [2377]
 

Edited by: Heritor on 11/02/2007 15:08:52
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Heritor
stuff

Okay.
Same alt buys some stuff from you off the market with dirty ISK.

You get banned.

Fair?

Happy with that?

Just because you have no way of knowing that the ISK is dirty is no defence by your logic, non?


No not at all fair, as the market would be the third party and the ignorance would be the market due not having control of who buys what.

I do not wish to harp on as this thread is far more important so i will try and keep it brief.

If my char was to sell an item by dirtect trading for a fair price I am not ignorant of anything. If accepted a large amount of isk for a low cost module, then I may well be punished for accepting dirty isk. as I would be ignoring the signs of possible foul play.

Example: Tech2 BPOs for nothing is possibly dodgy

I will not reply to anything else so as not to de-rail thisa thread into our personal differences of interpretation ugh


Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:14:00 - [2378]
 

Originally by: Nim9i5
BoB is in violation of EULA.. they cheated.. how hard is that to understand?


By your logic, Goonswarm and RA/aAa are a violation of the EULA, the difference being the latter groups had much more widespread knowledge of their actions.

I'm curious who your main is, because you're joining the crowd of people BoB has beaten, in wanting BoB, and only BoB punished for t20's actions. As interesting as it'd be to see BoB, Goon, RA, and other alliances vanish for the actions of only a few members, it's not going to happen.

You only want such heavy action because it's BoB, nothing more.

That said, I'm all for banning every last member of BoB who violated the EULA. I'm also for banning every member of Goonswarm who used their clinet hack, and every member of the various groups which farmed the quite obviously bugged Angel complexes to the tune of trillions of ISK.

You think t20's ammo BPOs did some damage? Imagine the damage someone could do with a trillion ISK to purchase BPOs and POSes. His being a dev makes his much worse than if a normal player had done it, but compared to other things, the in-game impact is nothing. The loss of trust for many players is what makes this huge.

Damon Ra
Caldari
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:14:00 - [2379]
 

So why *exactly* wasn't t20 sacked for this? Oh right, CCP was understaffed due to vacations when this was exposed. How very inconvenient.

If I cheated and got caught it would result in a perma-ban, regardless of how long I had pre-paid my account for, or how "sorry" or "ignorant" I may claim to be.

Plain and simple, someone in a position of power and trust at CCP abused both. Once again this is publicly admitted by CCP only after the community is in an uproar.

I would personally like to see CCP adopt and stand by a NO TOLERANCE policy (in re: to employment, you cheat you get sacked) in light of the fact that within 1 year, at least 2 cases of CCP employee misconduct (that I know of) have been exposed. Strangely, In the first case the player who initially exposed the misdeeds got banned.

If CCP really wants to rebuild faith and trust in the player community they need to start taking ACTION and not just try to smooth things over with hollow words.

FYI, CCP you wouldn't need your own messy and complicated version of "Internal Affairs", if everyone working there was simply made aware that the penalty for anyone caught cheating was instant termination of employment.




Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:15:00 - [2380]
 

Originally by: Morgain dVher
Edited by: Morgain dVher on 11/02/2007 06:12:03
Edited by: Morgain dVher on 11/02/2007 06:11:02
Despite Mayas protestations, Tanis brings out a bigger issue than anything else that has been posted here. The merger between CCP and White Wolf was going on during this time. If CCP knew about this and didn't disclose it, it could be considered anything from a breach of reps and warranties to fraud.

I wonder if/when White Wolf will learn of this thread?Shocked


This is assuming White Wolf didn't hear about the incident and the actions taken at the time. If they did, then that's the end of it.

Nighlighted
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:17:00 - [2381]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Heritor
stuff

Okay.
Same alt buys some stuff from you off the market with dirty ISK.

You get banned.

Fair?

Happy with that?

Just because you have no way of knowing that the ISK is dirty is no defence by your logic, non?


Accutally that is the way that works. Even in other games when someone gives out bought Gold/credits for free what happens. Usually a lot of the people who thought it was charity get banned.
It happens in a lot of games. Same thing in real life, you buy a stolen good, use a stolen good, or get a stolen good even if you did not know it was stealing you could be held accountable for the theft.
So all these T2 BPOs were given to you, did you not use them, keep them hidden, did not gain any benefit from them. Granted the moral thing to do is to remove the 'dirty isk' but rarly is the technology set up for that. Like people have been saying it is a game, you can always get another account and start over.


Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:18:00 - [2382]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 15:16:26
Morgain dVher, what I actually said on that subject was "Very Likely". Agreeing, y'know. On the reasons, the consequences I'd not comment on.

umop 3pisdn, G later become *D2*. Get your tinfoil hat straight, ffs.

Heritor, strangely enough...that is NOT what the EULA says. Try again.
Nighlighted, not true. You forfit the items. You are only guilty of a crime if you knew they were stolen. Beyond reasonable doubt.

Avon, or the origional alliance name? Everyone seems to forget that one.

Malthros Zenobia, I'd forgotton the complex thing. Oh yes, THAT needs action as well for even handedness.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:19:00 - [2383]
 

Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Originally by: Gaius Octavius
I was a serious hardcore EVE player since 1994,


Whoa! Youve been playing eve since before they started coding it! How many SP do you have? Shocked


Alt of Salvador Sarpati!Laughing

Xenofur
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:23:00 - [2384]
 

One random thought:

There is a tidbit here that gives CCP credibility. The fact that they didn't fire t20. Why? Here's what i'd have done:
Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20.
Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months.
Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...

Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.

vipeer
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:27:00 - [2385]
 

Originally by: Avon
vipeer, I assume you are directing your questions at BoB in general, even though you quoted me?

I'm afraid I can't help you with your specific concerns, sorry.


Yet you run the so called "damage control" for your alliance. Why is that, if you have no clue of what you are talking about? Would it just be an attempt to avoid an argument? Maybe. Only you know that. Besides, i am not accusing all the members of BOD. Some are bound to be in the dark about all the stunts you guys and girls pulled. I feel sorry for them because all they achieved or helped achieve could in fact be a handout from CCP in one way or another. Ignorance is bliss but when you get a reality check it's that much more stressing.

If you don't have the answer then please ask the forum admin who accepted the registration of a player with a CCP mail address as a commander of a capital fleet that has been so effectively run under his command.


Gwen
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:27:00 - [2386]
 

Originally by: Xenofur
One random thought:

There is a tidbit here that gives CCP credibility. The fact that they didn't fire t20. Why? Here's what i'd have done:
Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20.
Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months.
Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...

Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.


So your answer is more smoke and mirrors. Don't get me wrong I don't think he should lose a career over this, but more lying?....


Heritor
Caldari
Hated Raiders
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:27:00 - [2387]
 

Edited by: Heritor on 11/02/2007 15:24:48
Originally by: Maya Rkell
[

Heritor, strangely enough...that is NOT what the EULA says. Try again.



I am not quoting the EULA, I am stating a point in an earlier post that BoB had cheated because a BoB member had supplied Tech2 BPOs that had been sourced through dubious means Rolling Eyes

Unfortunately the BoB member was a CCP Employee



Executor Shiro
Casino EVE
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:28:00 - [2388]
 

Edited by: Executor Shiro on 11/02/2007 15:26:52
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Heritor
stuff

Okay.
Same alt buys some stuff from you off the market with dirty ISK.

You get banned.

Fair?

Happy with that?



Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.

So yes, lets take your position; and ban all the BoB leaders who knew. It would be easy to do; CCP just has to ask T20 who in BoB knew.

So what if your alliance crumbles; cheaters don't deserve to play.

Hell, you guys STILL cheat; when are your BoB-CynoNet abusers going to be banned?


Gibmundur
Amarr
Celestial Apocalypse
death from above..
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:29:00 - [2389]
 

and people wonder why bob treat t2 ships like t1 ships.

I find it unlikely that someone wo so blatently cheats like t20 has will not have used his power for further cheating! He was forced to confess after someone ratted him out in bob

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:30:00 - [2390]
 


Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered but kept in game?

Why isn't Sir Molle banned when he directly violated the EULA by posting RL info about a player?

Why are devs allowed to be in director positions in major alliances?

Why is CCP trying to keep everything secrect?


Be honest, be transparent. EVE is a wonderful game, the player community is great and just loves this game (why else then so many posts?).

Please make a list with devs, GMs, Event managers. The list should contain the responsibilites of the people, their area of work and if their chars are in an alliance and if yes, in which one.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:30:00 - [2391]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell

Avon, or the origional alliance name? Everyone seems to forget that one.


The logo, not the original name.
Then again, good point.
If CCP was in bed with BoB, we wouldn't be BoB, would we? We would still have that rather amusing name.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:30:00 - [2392]
 

Heritor, I don't care what you "think". The EULA is quite clear.

Executor Shiro, no it hasn't. The evidence even the hacker has produced shows absolutely nothing of the sort. If you can't even be bothered to read it...

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:32:00 - [2393]
 

Originally by: Executor Shiro

Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.


Actually the exact opposite has been established.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:34:00 - [2394]
 

Originally by: vipeer

Yet you run the so called "damage control" for your alliance. Why is that, if you have no clue of what you are talking about? Would it just be an attempt to avoid an argument?


Or could it be that I am just putting forward my views?

I'm not running damage limitation for my alliance, I'm not in a position to do so.

Like I said, I can only give my perspective, but I am willing to do so.
Your hostility towards me is misplaced, and does nothing to encourage me to risk my position in my alliance to continue discussing this.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:36:00 - [2395]
 

Originally by: Borderjumper
In real life lieing, cheating and stealing come with penalts, and sometimes you have to pay for your mistakes more then once. I would like to think the same thing holds true in a fantasy.


Double Jeopardy laws prevent multiple punishments for the same crime, actually. t20 may have had his pay cut in half, he may have been demoted, and other things may have happened to him, CCP will not, and cannot tell us without opening a larger can of worms. We may not like it, we may not want to accept it, but we don't have a choice in that matter. Your choice is to either play, or not play. If someone were to cheat, and get banned, and CCP released details about it (thus violating their rules), there could be hell to pay for it.

People don't realize that CCP doesn't disclose details on punishments, ever, and the players expect more info because it's a dev, and don't seem to give a damn about CCP's rules regarding punishments. People are calling for BoB members to be banned, for all we know, they may very well have been, although iirc, posting personal info on the forums results in forum bans, not game bans. There is a difference for CCP in terms of a person (SM) posting Kugu's personal info on the forums (which iirc he went back and removed himself didn't he?), and Kugu breaking into private messages, finding info, and trying to blackmail several parties with it. Anyone who allows such a person to continue playing their games are out of their minds. Kugu is a lucky, lucky man if he's in Taiwan or Indonesia, where they won't extradite him to Iceland, the UK, or the US where he'd be looking at a several decade jail sentence, and the loss of every single thing he owns due to the damage he's done to CCP by releasing private info.

Yes, I said private. I can think of several people who got fired for negligence at a job I used to work at, and we handled important personal info (pretty much everything except CC info). When those people were fired, the customers were not told. They didn't HAVE to be told. There are no laws that order companies to disclose the actions of their employees. CCP could have very well come out and stated that Kugu was talking about a resolved situation, and fabricated other info, and destroyed his credibility (not hard given the guy's history), but they didn't, and now they'll probably suffer for it, and it shows why many companies don't do what CCP has done. Customers are ungrateful. If t20 were drawn and quartered on EVEtv, and everyone who was ever a member of BoB banned forever, this mob would still cry for more blood, and those that actually will quit, would quit.

Originally by: MrDisposable
You know whats funny? Can anyone really say "Go play WoW" smugly anymore?


Considering that the nature of the two games hasn't changed (that being EVE is harsh, and WoW is a very, very easy and catering game), I'd say yes. EVE and WoW are not the same.

And you're a fool if you think WoW's employees are pure and innocent.Wink

Xenofur
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:36:00 - [2396]
 

Originally by: Gwen
Originally by: Xenofur
One random thought:

There is a tidbit here that gives CCP credibility. The fact that they didn't fire t20. Why? Here's what i'd have done:
Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20.
Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months.
Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...

Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
So your answer is more smoke and mirrors. Don't get me wrong I don't think he should lose a career over this, but more lying?....
you fail to read. it speaks in their favor that they did not do that.

Thalen Draganos
Caldari
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:38:00 - [2397]
 

Originally by: Goran
Well, isn't this nice?

Can't you see that it is you people that are killing Eve, not CCP, not BoB?
You are willing to flush this game in to the sewers just to score a few points on an intardweb chat board?

Well done.

I bet K. is laughing his arse off.

He took payments from you suckers to reveal information.
Easy ISK.

He tried to blackmail BoB to keep quiet.
He failed.

He tried to blackmail CCP to keep quiet.
He got banned.

What we have now is a dramabomb of epic proportions of his creation.
You, by ranting at CCP and BoB, are carrying out his threats for him, you have become his pawns.

Poor sheep.
Baaaaaaa.

You think your crusade is actually having results?
All you have done is brought out in to the open something that happened months ago.
It was dealt with then, and all this has changed nothing, and nor should it.

This thread is a perfect example of exactly why all breaches of the COD, TOS, and EULA should remain confidential.
Making things public and transparent doesn't make thing better, just uglier.

Sure T20 should have been punished more harshly at the time, but he wasn't.
Live with it.
Move on.

Sure anyone who is proven to cheat should be punished.
We just have to trust the petition system, because if we put the law in to our own hands we become what we distrust.

This isn't the first time that people in authority have been caught cheating (at least one other event made public, the GM scorp), and I doubt it would be the last. If I don't hear of any more then I am happy .. even if they occur and are dealt with internally

The question you have to ask yourselves is: The moment before I heard about this, did I enjoy Eve?

The game itself hasn't changed.
CCP hasn't changed.
The players haven't changed.

The only difference is that the community has soured somewhat, and most of them don't even see it.

You are being played.
You are carrying out (knowingly or not) the agenda of someone else.

Question is, do you want to kill the game you love in order to exact the threats of K., or do you want to work to save it.

The only thing here than needs immediate healing is the community, and that is something that we have to do for ourselves.
Nothing CCP says can do it for us.

It really is time to put your trust in Eve, and CCP.
If you can't do that because of one rotten apple, then leave.
Don't kill it for those who wish to enjoy this game.

The situation is not ideal, and I for one am not happy about the whole thing, but like the 4S incident, and the GM scorp, it will fade with time, and Eve will (hopefully) remain.


So you would have us just sit by, allow people to cheat, ruin the game for 1000's of others and be happy about it? Sounds a bit too much like a junky worried about losing their fix. Here's an idea, lets all band together in one giant fleet of the people and take on those that have been aided and see who wins. If we lose and they win then we all know the truth and we move on to the next MMO. This one is really great, don't get me wrong, but it has become excessively tainted by a management team that can not even follow their own rules.
Here's a hint people, the rules must apply to everyone, and yes that would even include those who made them, or they are meaningless.
Whatever K has done to aquire the information that started it or what his origional motives were is irrelivant. What is important is that he brought to light a bit of corruption that the majority must not have known too much about. Otherwise this many people would have said all this months ago when it happened.
Simple thing is, don't make excuses for the truth. In cases like this, the only people that are hurt by the truth are those that would have you believe the lies.

Elve Sorrow
Amarr
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:39:00 - [2398]
 

I think the only right course of action now is to stop trying to cover this up. Stop your damage control, and come clean. Give us the bloody truth. The whole truth, nothing but etc etc.

You may find your current damage control does more harm than good.

Gwen
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:40:00 - [2399]
 

Originally by: Xenofur
Originally by: Gwen
Originally by: Xenofur
One random thought:

Here's what i'd have done:
Step 1: Make announcement of firing t20.
Step 2: Send t20 on a vacation in france for 2 months.
Step 3: Anounce 2 months later that a new web dev was hired...

Would've saved CCP a lot of trouble here at almost zero cost.
So your answer is more smoke and mirrors. Don't get me wrong I don't think he should lose a career over this, but more lying?....
you fail to read. it speaks in their favor that they did not do that.


maybe you should read it again...seriously...your suggesting changing his dev name....

Nighlighted
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.02.11 15:40:00 - [2400]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Executor Shiro

Those in the BoB leadership knew those BPOs were illegally gained via the Developer-Cheating. That has already been established.


Actually the exact opposite has been established.


How was this established? Did they kick the DEV out when they found out. Is there a station somewhere where all these T2 stuff are? Is your allience prepaired to apologize to the members of ASCN, Goonswarm, and all the others you attacked while this is going on?


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