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blankseplocked Something needs to be done to re-populate low-sec.
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Venkul Mul
Posted - 2007.01.20 12:42:00 - [61]

Originally by: Zana Kito

So far, restricting L5 agents in low sec only is the best idea.


- Make the missions truely for group play, i.e. the npc gives out that mission, you can share to several people in your gang so they also get the bonuses.


Your suggestion aren't bad, but intill the NPC AI isn't made better,a level 5 group mission seem the NPC version of the blob vs blob battles.

Enter room, PC group call primary NPC group aggro against 1 target.
Fire till primary or aggroed target drop. Repeat.

Add that NPC suffer less for lag, pirates wouldn't be targeted.

So, if based on the current mission engine, it will be unplayable, particulary in a non deadspace area as you suggest.

The end result would be the pirate getting the big rewards 2/3 of the time or the need to lock the system to make a mission.

If making a symilar mission require 5 BS as mission running group and 2 BS and 3 T2 frigates to protect the mission runners from a pirate gang, all the small corporations are out of the picture.

Idea It could work if the big reward is the mission reward, not something dropped by the enemyes. So it can be lost failing the mission, but not looted by someone busting the mission.

With that option it can be possible even get some pact with the local pirates giving them a fraction of the rewars for a safe conduct during the mission. (Not that I think most pirates will accept).

Posted - 2007.01.20 12:45:00 - [62]

The problem is that CCP have done too good a job of introducing risk and fear into the game. The thing that makes Eve so good is the very thing that the OP is suffering from.

What we are seeing in Eve is the truth about the human psyche. Most people don't want to fight and are happy to amble their way through life. The only thing that can be done to get more people into low-sec is to reduce the consequences of loss. IOW turn Eve into a run of the mill safe, fluffy MMORPG where there are no serious consequences to your actions.

Now before I get flamed I want to make it clear that I don't support that move. It would destroy Eve and I'd hate it.

Unfortunately that is the only way you're going to change the attacker/victim ratio of the game. People calling for Empire to be nerfed to force players into low sec need to get a clue. Most humans don't want to suffer those kind of losses and you're never going to change them.

Order of Melekel
Posted - 2007.01.20 12:46:00 - [63]

The fact is the only way you will get more people to 0.0 is remove the pvp'ers. you cant force someone to pvp thats the only reason everyone comes up with these ideals to push people to 0.0. Use ASCN for a example they were primarly into undustry (carebear). Thet pretty much left everyone alone. Then the bullies of Eve got bored and said hey more pvp targets. Why do people want to go to 0.0 just to see thier hard work destroyed or taken over. Moving agents to low sec moving ore to low sec won't work all it will do is cause more people to leave. Not everyone wants to join a allience and have to deal with all the politics. no if ccp had a low sec nuetral zone where pvp was not allowed i bet it would look like jita. So all the crying pvp'er need to get over it.

Tanis Bastar
Interstitial Incorporated
Posted - 2007.01.20 12:50:00 - [64]

Edited by: Tanis Bastar on 20/01/2007 12:46:56
I've been living in lo-sec for some time and am generally happy there. The one comment I have is that there does not seem to be any reason for lo-sec belt rats to exist.

I hate running missions and for some time spent a lot of time ratting in lo-sec. While the rat bounties are crap, every now and then I'd get faction loot worth 20-50 million. Salvage also was not very worthwhile. Overall, not very lucrative.

I have since started running missions to build up standing, and what a difference! As compared to lo-sec ratting, I make much more money, the salvage is much better (more variety, many more wrecks), and I get standing.

I think that EVE should not force people into playing in particular ways, but as it stands now, there is absolutely no reason to choose ratting over missions in lo-sec, and it should be no surprise that the belts are completely empty.

I'm not sure how to fix this--increasing the drop rate of faction loot, for example, would only make it worth less. But maybe at least give faction standing increases, similar to security rating increases, for ratting in the faction's area?

Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.01.20 12:51:00 - [65]

The old ore distribution ftw - 0.2 and 0.1 had Gneiss, 0.0 had Dark Ochre in most systems and Crockite and Bistot were a bit more common, too. The current system is predictable, boring and unimaginative. I still don't get why it was ever introduced - to make people go out to deep 0.0? Looks like it didn't really work, so revert it :P

Venkul Mul
Posted - 2007.01.20 13:01:00 - [66]

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/01/2007 13:00:43
OK, let's try something radical and see the replyes:

High sec you fire on a ship CONCORD came and blow you
Low sec CONCORD don't came
0.0 alliances can get soveregnity.

I would be possible to change to:

High sec you fire on a ship CONCORD came and blow you

Low sec CONCORD don't came if you fire against a ship, can,
ecc, BUT if you fire against a POD CONCORD will came and kill your ship and all the ship that have fired on the ship that spawned the pod in the last 5 minutes.

0.0 alliances can get soveregnity.

The only change would be in low se.

Most of us can accept risking the ship, but we don't like to risk the life of the character (and the implants), even if it is only some bit of data.

This will moderate the loss, without robbing the pirates of the loot they could get.

I have lost some ship to pirates and warring corporations. And the ship loss, even when it is an hard blow to my finances, in not a thing I regret much.
But begin pod killed for non gain on the other party and no reason (like a war), is sometime I dislike much.

The Candidate
Posted - 2007.01.20 13:03:00 - [67]

Edited by: The Candidate on 20/01/2007 13:00:14

Rorix Whitecloud
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
Posted - 2007.01.20 13:04:00 - [68]

For the people advocating a simple boost in reward for things (ores, missions, rats, etc) in low sec, i would like to tell you that this would not help your current situation. Not in the long run at least.
The reason is... well, lets assume you get what you want, and low sec gets a small boost in rewards. What will happen is that, at first, there will be a surge of people coming back to mine/rat/run missions. Then, there will be a surge of pirates, feeding on these newcomers. The pirate population will rise as long as there are targets. Soon after that, the people that came because of the new rewards will leave, because there are so many pirates that low sec becomes not worth it again. Now finally, you'll have exactly the same problem you have now: an under-populated low sec.

For an alternative way to repopulate low sec that does not simply depend on increasing low sec rewards, clicky the link in my sig :)

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2007.01.20 13:14:00 - [69]

Originally by: Andrue
People calling for Empire to be nerfed to force players into low sec need to get a clue. Most humans don't want to suffer those kind of losses and you're never going to change them.

I can see that, and it is not what I propose. I suggest a reward boost for low sec not accompanied by a corresponding nerf to high sec.

I have known a lot of carebears who really do play eve for the high-sec sandbox alone, who would cancel their accounts and move on if their preferred style of gameplay was significantly impeded by changes to the environment.

However, equally, I see a lot of players trying out low sec and coming to the conclusion that the sparse content is not worth the effort. Then they either go to the safety of alliance space, hopping between alliances during times of periodic collapse, or stay in high sec and try to build the community they want there. In the latter case, such people get bored, drift apart and turn inactive.

I think there is an untapped resource of players out there, willing to watch each others' backs in a more risky environment, taking advantage of that need to cooperate to strengthen team bonds. And it is not the pirates that are the problem, it is the fact that low security space has too little actual game content for people to do anything meaningful.

And don't talk to me about the untapped resource of moons. A POS is not primary content for small corps, it is something that runs in the background while players run missions (for agents which are not there) or hunt NPCs (which spawn once per hour) in a system with half a dozen belts containing Jaspet and a station with half a dozen services.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2007.01.20 15:48:00 - [70]

Originally by: Twilight Moon
Easy solution:

1) Remove High sec
2) Ignore the flamefest that ensues
3) Happy ganktastic fun time!

4. bankrupt, sold to soe.

Multiverse Corporation
The Core Collective
Posted - 2007.01.20 15:49:00 - [71]

I would like something similar to the sovereignty. For the sake of confusion lets call the low-sec version - autonomy .

You gain Autonomy the say way you gain sovereignty.

Bonus would be different not less.
10% less fuel needed versus the current 20%

20% increase to the bounties on rats( or give the low-sec system 0.1 rats)

10% increasing on mining yield of high end ore, and 30% increase of low-end ore. (yes this would help us mine trit)

the 1/2 sale's tax of items sold in station or facilities used goes into the corp/alliance coffers.

Or even better, make it so no alliance make hold a low-sec system, it has to be a corp without an alliance.

ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
Posted - 2007.01.20 16:31:00 - [72]

Originally by: Venkul Mul

High sec you fire on a ship CONCORD came and blow you

hehe, if onlyEmbarassed

Chimu Quien
Posted - 2007.01.20 17:37:00 - [73]

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

Simply the majority of people in Empire don't want to pew pew at each other all day. They don't want to be ganked, hunted down, lose ships and fittings and get their factions borked because of someone else's desire to shoot something. Most of them don't care if you want to shoot at someone, but they don't want to be the targets hence will stay away.

Simply they feel the risk of losing ships to pirates too high to exceed the potential gain. Pirates have done their job too well; now they are paying the price for that success in the loss of targets...

Finally! Someone who understands.

Now, several people will probably propose ways to FORCE people to come to lo-sec... Rolling Eyes

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2007.01.20 17:40:00 - [74]

Originally by: Chimu Quien
Now, several people will probably propose ways to FORCE people to come to lo-sec... Rolling Eyes

Don't give a damn about them. More concerned about the fact that on and off over the past two and a half years I have given it a go and found it to be crap. You know it's broken when 0.0 reward is easier.

Solahn Merav
Posted - 2007.01.20 17:40:00 - [75]

As a genuine carebear, these are my concerns with going into low sec.

1. Sitting duck at gates.

2. Sitting duck at asteroid belts.

3. Paying for security doesn't work as I'm the first target and I pop like a balloon. In addition, ore/ratting in low sec isn't much better than in empire.

Some ideas to address these concerns.

1. Remove local from low sec. There is no reason that a pirate should know I jumped into a system, just as much as I shouldn't know he is there either.

2. Introduce the concept of gate synchronization problems in low sec which warps you to a random spot in system, not to a gate like it is now. To leave the system you must still travel to a gate a jump like normal. This takes away the sitting duck issue at gates which is number one on my list and many others.

3. Random asteroid belts in low sec. Mining class ships have built in scanners so they can find them no problem. Non-mining class ships have to fit restrictive modules to accomplish the same ability. This helps with the sitting duck at belts issue. If you want to find me, you have to use probes or gimp yourself.

4. Add a module that allows a protective ship to actually surround you with their shields. For instance, a raven could envelope my barge with it's shields. To kill me, you have to kill him first. While under this protection, my ship can't warp.

5. Introduce random npc fleet spawns that could be probed by ratters. These fleets would replace the usual belt spawns and would be composed of ships found in level 3-4 missions. If you found such a fleet, you could have it to yourself, you could have another player jump in and attack it as well, or another player could jump in and attack you then kill off the spawn.

The biggest obstacle is overcoming the belief I will be ganked the minute I step foot into low sec. Make me feel like I have a chance and I would begin to weigh the risk/reward, but until then, I stay in empire.

Serefon Creatin
Posted - 2007.01.20 17:57:00 - [76]

I agree with other posters that the risk vs. reward in low sec is very much tipped to the side of risk now. And most people do not like taking risks that they do not think are worth it.

Before Revelations, people used to rat in ships fitted out with warp core stabilizers. Now with the WCS nerf, that has become impossible. The nerf was introduced to keep people running away from a fight if they engage because that is just lame. But that's exactly what ratters want: to run away from pvp if confronted. Because more often than not they lose their ships in pvp encounters. This option was taken away from them. As a result, people were discouraged from ratting in low sec; low sec population has dropped. These ratters would rather run lvl 2-3 mission in high sec now than venture to low sec. It just became too risky while the reward stayed same. The scanner was also nerfed so you can no longer rat as efficiently by scanning out nice and special spawns.

The reward of low sec needs to be bolstered. As a pirate, you want people in the belts, not docked or running missions. To put people into belts, you need to give them some really good incentives for being there to counter the increased risk.

The incentive that carebears are looking for is ISK. The more ISK you can make per hour, the faster you can buy that Navy Raven to run missions or start collecting those faction frigs in your hangar. So there needs to be more ISK coming out of being in low sec belts. I don't think boosting the number of belts or refinery efficiency will quite do that.

For ratters, consider making rats drop some very good items more often. Someone gets a 25 mil implant from rats a few times, he goes brags to his buddies about it, his buddies start coming out to low sec belts. Make low sec rats drop a wide variety of expensive and rare items more frequently. I know that this is what special spawns are for, but right now finding one happens so very rarely, especially with the scanner nerf, that people don't even try for it.

Also, I thought that it would be very nice to have 0.0 ores randomly spawn in low sec. And I don't mean in hidden belts that you have to use probes for, as quite a few people, especially younger players, can't use launcher and probes or can't use them well. Right now you need a system with very low true security for 0.0 ores to spawn there. As a result, very few systems have this ore, making it easy for some large alliance to usurp the area completely. Unless you are one of their members, you don't ever get to see this ore. How about making some of that 0.0 ore spawn in low sec belts? Spawn rarely just like special spawns do. I am sure that chances of finding 2-3 rocks of Arkonor here or there would attract quite a few miners to browse low sec.

Posted - 2007.01.20 18:05:00 - [77]

Edited by: ceaon on 20/01/2007 18:02:38
dont need to change EvE take a look is YOUR fault yes your alliance want to get more more and more systems u have to make like IAC get over 1300 ppl on a constellation
is the only way until u get
Constellation Sovereignty

The next step in world domination. Often used as the example of required investment of an alliance to justify advanced territory features such as gate control and solar system defenses.

and more many of 0.0 are no n00b friendly
u are "burning" your brains whit "what need to be done to get ppl out from empire and come to 0.0?"
take next point of view
" what i need to make to get some ppl from empire and come down here on 0,0 ? "
ask your self that and al stuff will be solved

Marcus TheMartin
Posted - 2007.01.20 18:06:00 - [78]

I would like to see a shield spreading module implemented to protect miners in lowsec to be honest so atleast you HAVE to go through the protection first before popping the barge

Chimu Quien
Posted - 2007.01.20 18:54:00 - [79]

Originally by: Solahn Merav
As a genuine carebear, these are my concerns with going into low sec.

1. Sitting duck at gates.

2. Sitting duck at asteroid belts.

...The biggest obstacle is overcoming the belief I will be ganked the minute I step foot into low sec. Make me feel like I have a chance and I would begin to weigh the risk/reward, but until then, I stay in empire.

Yeah, GETTING there is the problem. To me, it's pointless to even try. I don't pay my subscription just to provide targets for the no-life types who have nothing to do but sit by a gate for hours.

Somebody mentioned a warp stab nerf. Since I don't have any need for warp stabs, I'm not sure what the nerf was. My understanding is that warp stabs can cancel out warp scramblers. Has that changed?

Posted - 2007.01.20 19:12:00 - [80]

This is easy.

Do NOT change the QUALITY of individual items in low-sec.

DO increase the DENSITY of what is already there.

When there are more stations, more systems with complexes/exploration sites/quality moons/belts/etc, then there are more places to get rewards.

More places to get rewards, lower chance that at any given place you run into pirates.

I'd also suggest that the combat sec penalty get reworked a bit - you attack anyone, their whole gang/corp can attack you and your gang/corp for 15 minutes without a sec hit. That will make it easier for teams to defend themselves. I think that's one big difference between 0.0 and low-sec, the 'rules' of low-sec make it harder to defend yourself.

Hasek Raines
Posted - 2007.01.20 19:30:00 - [81]

Edited by: Hasek Raines on 20/01/2007 19:34:11
Edited by: Hasek Raines on 20/01/2007 19:28:32
I agree with the OP in that I think something should be done to make low sec more viable. Not so pirates can have more targets but so that part of the game is more viable and interesting. I think boosts to Low sec could help a little bit but there is going to also have to be some sort of new or different game mechanic implemented before the area really interests people.

One other thing. What is it with these tard carebears in this thread who come to flame the OP with their weak and tired "See what you get for being a Pirate!!" responses. The OP did not even suggest a nerf to Empire and yet, the morons flocked to this thread in droves like their way of life is being threatened. Perhaps they see threads like this as an opportunity to "stick it" to the pirates since they can't do it in the game. Just shut up and go back to your lvl 3 missions because this topic doesn't really concern you.

Whether or not the OP just wants more targets is irrelevant. His post is correct and Low sec needs boosting. With the way EvE's population is growing, those low sec systems could be useful for spreading some of the populations out. Not everyone wants to go to 0.0 and be part of a big alliance and not everyone wants to play in High Sec where the content is rather sparse. A "middle ground" would be a good thing for this game imo.

Alaric Rurk
Posted - 2007.01.20 21:59:00 - [82]

Edited by: Alaric Rurk on 20/01/2007 21:56:27
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Easy solution:

1) Remove High sec
2) Ignore the flamefest that ensues
3) Happy ganktastic fun time!


3) Happy ganktastic fun time for a few diminishing days. Many quit EVE once they discover they can't even undock without being blown out of the sky.
4) Unhappy Twilight moon soon complaining she can't find any easy targets in all of Empire space.

Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.01.20 23:42:00 - [83]

Originally by: Komen

@Patch86 - I think that's a brilliant idea. In another thread I suggested that in order for low-sec to be a draw for the non pew-pew crowd, it would have to have a unique draw, something that neither high-sec nor zero-sec offers. I didn't suggest any specific thing, as I couldn't come up with an idea for anything unique that didn't feel like 'added at a whim' sort of content. Damned if I can remember which thread it was, though. (/me wishes Eve fora had a 'subscribe to thread' feature...)

The idea of NPC faction capship spawns...yes. That smacks of just the sort of thing that would attract team-oriented players/corps to low-sec.

Glad someone likes it Very Happy

I figure it won't change the dynamics of wealth (that 0.0 is more valuable) too much, but it will provide a new warpable-location for players to "meet", and give low-sec a "something" of its own to bring to the table. Besides, its about time pirates showed us their capitals........

As it stands at the moment, there just isn't any point of players being in low sec, and even if they are, the only places they tend to meet is at the gates.

If they randomly spawn, roving around, it'll also act as a *sort of* exploration, albeit one not requiring probes. Futhermore, it'll cause alliances a few heart attacks when one spawns in their territory Laughing

Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2007.01.20 23:53:00 - [84]

Okay so like the millionth "populate low-sec" thread in a month... -Steve

Tanis Bastar
Interstitial Incorporated
Posted - 2007.01.21 00:51:00 - [85]

Originally by: Nastratu
For ratters, consider making rats drop some very good items more often. Someone gets a 25 mil implant from rats a few times, he goes brags to his buddies about it, his buddies start coming out to low sec belts. Make low sec rats drop a wide variety of expensive and rare items more frequently.

But then the items won't be expensive and rare anymore. This was also my initial thought, but long-term I don't think it works.

I think people just have to have some reason to be in lo-sec. Making it easier to have a POS in 0.4 (no standing or charters) and maybe allowing moon mining in 0.4 might help just by increasing the activity level a bit, although POS are not going to generate much traffic.

Jaguar Dragon
Blood Association of Dragons
Blood Alliance of Dragons
Posted - 2007.01.21 02:18:00 - [86]

you want more players in low sec ,great
have ccp remove the sec standing loss i'll take if i kill a pirate that has a low sec standing or bounty on him,
why should a player suffer sec standing losses for killing a low sec standing pirate, he is an outlaw.
anyone with a low sec standing and or having a bounty on him, should be shot on sight anywhere in game without concord interfering. it's just wrong that an outlaw can fly down main street in high sec.

low sec in empty because even the bounty hunter will suffer a sec standing loss by kiling a pirate. hence, the bounty hunter then looks the same as a pirate, he has a low sec standing or bounty on him.

so, not even a safe space corp will take on the low sec pirates because of this.everyone talks about what it should be compaired to real life. eve is so unbalanced in favor of pirates it not funny.
and you wonder why empire low sec in empty.

Reggie Stoneloader
Posted - 2007.01.21 02:43:00 - [87]

Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 21/01/2007 02:43:23
Originally by: Jaguar Dragon
you want more players in low sec ,great
have ccp remove the sec standing loss i'll take if i kill a pirate that has a low sec standing or bounty on him,

There it is. Even if you're organized and skilled and trained, most carebears are unwilling to engage in PvP because of sec loss. There's no way to get that back without hours and hours of ratting, which miners don't do. So the teams that could populate low-sec and protect their miners there are unable to do so because they won't take the sec hit to kill pirates that haven't already gotten a flag.

Pirates love to taunt and mock the carebears that won't fight them, and it wears you out. You can't live n low-sec without either spending a lot of time ratting in 0.0 or being an outlaw after a month. My poor hauling alt has been at -1.0 sec for almost a year because I helped kill an Ishtar pilot that had been ganking newbies in a system every day for a week. A year of mining and hauling and building and trading and sec status never goes up, because I didn't kill the thousands and thousands of NPC spaceships that it would take to reset my security status.

If I had tried to live in low-sec and fought to defend myself and my mates from the sort of people that come in and shoot at them, I'd be -10 with no hope of ever getting back to a lawful status.

That is unmitigated bullcrap. Take sec status out of EvE. Let killrights decide who gets shot with impunity at gates and stations, take away the bounties and the sec status that serves only as badges for villains and curses for everyone else.

Posted - 2007.01.21 02:51:00 - [88]

That's actually an excellent point. In several ways, low-sec space is the worst of both worlds - you don't have the police protection you get in high-sec, but you can't engage targets on your own terms without losing security rating. Small wonder that the only people left are the ones that don't mind losing their sec rating...

Offworld Miners and Fabricators Guild
Rising Orbit Free Trade League
Posted - 2007.01.21 04:19:00 - [89]

Originally by: Neon Genesis
Originally by: Erfnam
The only way lowsec will become populated is if CONCORD sets up shop. You want lots of targets, head out to 0.0 or start declaring wars.

So make low sec into high sec? This is an awful, awful idea.


That is an awful idea, which is why I didn't propose it. Low sec space is meant to be some what lawless. My statement was about how many players will not move to low sec regardless of the added rewards, since the risk will be excessive. While this is a pvp game, ship combat is not the only form of pvp. Players stay in empire because that allows them to play the aspects of the game that they enjoy and avoid the aspects that they wish to avoid.

11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2007.01.21 04:41:00 - [90]

Guys, I'm all for pirates getting targets back and whatnot, honestly.
But FFS revamp the bounty system, location agent and so on.

I want to be an anti-pirate as much as you want to be pirate.
I tried on several occasions and it's just not worth the effort and sec status loss.

The way I see it now, they might as well have Empire and 0.0 and that's it.
Only been saying that for like 2 years...

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