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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2007.01.19 16:53:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 19/01/2007 16:50:06
Originally by: Rod Blaine
So, you've got a single claoked alt sitting in your system....

And that's an issue because of what exactly ?


You don't feel safe ? OMG !
The answer is called puttin-an-alt/scout-of-your-own-in-nextdoor-systems-and-letting-all-friendlies-know-when-to-run-for-cover

Ofc, you could also try to set a trap for him and his friends if the prior tactic doesn't help for some reason. I bet they wouldn't expect to scramble a single bs in a belt only to be jumped by a dozen others from a safespot 15 au away.


Its not that he's there its the fact that he is there and your odds of being able to do something about it are one in a trillion

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:12:00 - [32]
 

IMO, this is one of the primary uses of a cloak; spying and causing worry about the fact a cloaked ship is out there. For "historical" proof of that I submit this (slightly editted) portion out of the original Klingon ship recognition guide (published some 18 years ago):

"Of the 81 K22-Bs built one has been captured by the Federation, one has been destroyed and the remaining 79 are believed to be in active service, their where-abouts unknown."

Cloaked ships are SUPPOSED to be invisible and unfound.

Cilppiz
FinFleet
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:16:00 - [33]
 

If one cloaked ship in your system is causing you this much problem you better get back to empire Laughing

One cloaked ship hardly prevents you working on system. Just make sure that no hostile fleet gets too close wihtout notice (you are doing this anyway, right?) And keep your eyes open in local incase that cloaker is recon. Once he engages someone jump on him and kill him, loot hes cloaking device and wait him to come back with new one.

Even better you could try to bait him.

Ozzie Asrail
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:17:00 - [34]
 

AFK cloakers sould be able to be found. something like a 30minute scan or i liked that idea above, longer they sit cloaked the higher their signal strength starts to grow.


Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:25:00 - [35]
 

Where's the exploit in being cloaked?

The definition is using a game mechanic not as intended to get an unfair advantage.

Cloaking is not an exploit.

ghosttr
Amarr
ARK-CORP
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:28:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Where's the exploit in being cloaked?

The definition is using a game mechanic not as intended to get an unfair advantage.

Cloaking is not an exploit.


Being cloaked is not an exploit, and is just fine. Where is becomes a problem is when someone uses it to hide in a system 23/7 for a week or more.

Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:35:00 - [37]
 

this is lame and dishonest and boring. its not about having fun its about lust for winning. but its not an exploit.

Smagd
Encina Technologies
Namtz' aar K'in
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:37:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
For "historical" proof of that I submit this (slightly editted) portion out of the original Klingon ship recognition guide (published some 18 years ago):

"Of the 81 K22-Bs built one has been captured by the Federation, one has been destroyed and the remaining 79 are believed to be in active service, their where-abouts unknown."



Haha .. wait, was that sarcastic? You're trying to make your point with .. FICTION?

Hold on, let me invent a counter-proof. It's gonna be good, I swear, 150% of all cloaked ships destroyed, half of them while still in the factory.

Nah. Can't be bothered. Still had to laugh, thanks for that.

I must say, I was under the impression that there's a scan probe to find cloaked ships, but apparently the idea was scratched eh?

Oh btw, everybody who says "Cloakers will just warp off when something comes close", well there's gonna be a time when he's AFK asleep. Get him then.

Sean Dillon
Caldari
Surreal corp
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:42:00 - [39]
 

If they cloak they can't kill you, so whats the problem exactly?

He's just monitoring your activity and report to enemy, why dont you do the same with your enemy? But you dont think that far.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:48:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Sean Dillon
If they cloak they can't kill you, so whats the problem exactly?

He's just monitoring your activity and report to enemy, why dont you do the same with your enemy? But you dont think that far.


The problem isn't oh they are spying on us lets spy back its the fact we want it to be oh they are spying on us lets destroy them and spy back.

Deez Nuttzy
Caldari
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:53:00 - [41]
 

didn't read all of the threads but i did read 2/3 of them.

Lets assume the sci-fi guys in CCP got the idea for cloaking technology from star trek. well they can be tracked too by adjusting their sensors and such bu its still hard to do. So a special scan probe that worked 33% of the time might resolve that issue. Star gate same thing almost every sci-fi show had had cloaking technology in it and eventually they still were found so there should be a way.

now for real life ships and planes the US Navy and Air Force have stealth technology and we should all agree with that. That doesn't mean they are I WIN ship/planes cause there are counter measures that negate the stealth. passive radar for example - look it u - you'll see.

i don't fly a cloaked ship yet, and I am not a pvp'r too - but to make a ship with out flaws is not human and last time i checked the 4 races are all human. CCP add something to be able to scan out a cloacked ship but just don't make it to easy

So for this guy who is 23/7 and doesn't move then he will eventually get sanned and pwned but if he is truly moving around cloaked then it should be really tough to get him.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:55:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Deez Nuttzy
didn't read all of the threads but i did read 2/3 of them.

Lets assume the sci-fi guys in CCP got the idea for cloaking technology from star trek. well they can be tracked too by adjusting their sensors and such bu its still hard to do. So a special scan probe that worked 33% of the time might resolve that issue. Star gate same thing almost every sci-fi show had had cloaking technology in it and eventually they still were found so there should be a way.

now for real life ships and planes the US Navy and Air Force have stealth technology and we should all agree with that. That doesn't mean they are I WIN ship/planes cause there are counter measures that negate the stealth. passive radar for example - look it u - you'll see.

i don't fly a cloaked ship yet, and I am not a pvp'r too - but to make a ship with out flaws is not human and last time i checked the 4 races are all human. CCP add something to be able to scan out a cloacked ship but just don't make it to easy

So for this guy who is 23/7 and doesn't move then he will eventually get sanned and pwned but if he is truly moving around cloaked then it should be really tough to get him.


what about the 5th race? Twisted Evil

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:07:00 - [43]
 

You realize why the OP is whining right?

He's carebearing in a system in 0.0. The moment he sees someone in local he warps to his POS. So he is safe, exploiting 0.0 with no risk.

Now some people get tired of him doing that, so they take another account/character DEVOTED to making him paranoid.

There's a very easy counter. IF someone has devoted a cloaked character to annoy him, he should be able to devote a character to sitting in the next door/probable system where hostiles might come from to kill him, once said cloaked alt finds him.

Yet he is too lazy. He is a paranoid carebear who wants to play single player in eve and is crying because someone is intruding his "privacy" and he can't blob him to death.

Well tough luck... adapt or die.

I can't believe there are other people SERIOUSLY discussing whether this should be an exploit or not.

Sure, let's remove EVERYTHING from this game that is slightly untraditional. Cloaks give heavy penalties already.

WTS: Clue, T2 available.

Gaunty
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:07:00 - [44]
 

The problem is that there is no risk for the reward it gives. There has to be some sort of countermeasure even if its only a small chance.

Whatever about one alt sitting there, thats no big deal but when 8-10 BS sit in a SS cloaked in system pretty much all day only to emerge to gank a ship or two. Then they go back to being cloaked again for a few hours until its quiet again with no big gangs to fight them. Wheres the solution to that?

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:10:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 19/01/2007 18:08:38
Originally by: Gaunty
The problem is that there is no risk for the reward it gives. There has to be some sort of countermeasure even if its only a small chance.

Whatever about one alt sitting there, thats no big deal but when 8-10 BS sit in a SS cloaked in system pretty much all day only to emerge to gank a ship or two. Then they go back to being cloaked again for a few hours until its quiet again with no big gangs to fight them. Wheres the solution to that?


Highly unlikely, -40% penalty to targeting etc. And have you ever considered it's fairly boring to do this?

I don't see how there is no risk. There is always risk in it, attacking etc, since you might get trapped or baited...

In fact the ones who want to play without risk is the carebears whining that they can't OMGWARPTOPOSIWINBUTTON when someone they don't know enters local.

To even use cloaks, you need electronics lvl5 etc. And if it's cloaked BS, they can't warp cloaked, so just use your scanner. If you see 8 BS on scanner warp out.

I really don't want to make this personal, but just because CI is better than you at PvP tactics (they have been using said method for ages to clear out carebears from systems), you shouldn't be whining.

If you are too paranoid to deal with 1 cloaked alt, you don't deserve to hold said 0.0 area.

Deez Nuttzy
Caldari
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:14:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
Originally by: Deez Nuttzy
didn't read all of the threads but i did read 2/3 of them.

Lets assume the sci-fi guys in CCP got the idea for cloaking technology from star trek. well they can be tracked too by adjusting their sensors and such bu its still hard to do. So a special scan probe that worked 33% of the time might resolve that issue. Star gate same thing almost every sci-fi show had had cloaking technology in it and eventually they still were found so there should be a way.

now for real life ships and planes the US Navy and Air Force have stealth technology and we should all agree with that. That doesn't mean they are I WIN ship/planes cause there are counter measures that negate the stealth. passive radar for example - look it u - you'll see.

i don't fly a cloaked ship yet, and I am not a pvp'r too - but to make a ship with out flaws is not human and last time i checked the 4 races are all human. CCP add something to be able to scan out a cloacked ship but just don't make it to easy

So for this guy who is 23/7 and doesn't move then he will eventually get sanned and pwned but if he is truly moving around cloaked then it should be really tough to get him.


what about the 5th race? Twisted Evil


crap i missed one. stupid stupid stupid Embarassed

Ekscalybur
Caldari
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:21:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Gaunty
The problem is that there is no risk for the reward it gives. There has to be some sort of countermeasure even if its only a small chance.

Whatever about one alt sitting there, thats no big deal but when 8-10 BS sit in a SS cloaked in system pretty much all day only to emerge to gank a ship or two. Then they go back to being cloaked again for a few hours until its quiet again with no big gangs to fight them. Wheres the solution to that?


Reward? What reward is he getting? If its an alt like you said that isn't attended, he's gaining nothing. Except your aggravation.


I'm a bit surprised though. 2 pages of complaining about a cloaked ship sitting invisible for 2 weeks. Doesn't it dawn on the OP that's he should consider himself lucky that he even knows their is a cloaked ship in local? I mean, 2 weeks without moving or saying anything, and the OP knows without a doubt that this alt is out there. Someone should let the OP know that the best kind of spying is when the subject being spyed on doesn't know he's being spied on.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:27:00 - [48]
 

I'm still not seeing any reason that there shouldn't be a countermeasure to cloaking please come up with better arguments pro cloak lobby

Strel Samodelkin
Caldari Nationalist Party
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:31:00 - [49]
 

People need to think what the term exploit means. LOL!

Tryptasia
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:33:00 - [50]
 

Not that anyone cares what i say but
Isnt Local chat the problem here?
Local chat is kinda stupid and takes away alot of the realism that makes the game cool.

Gatecampers know when someone comes in and knows who it is?!? (Thats Stupid)
Local is the problem and should not exist


Portios Smith
DNR
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:34:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
I'm still not seeing any reason that there shouldn't be a countermeasure to cloaking please come up with better arguments pro cloak lobby


Cause WoW has one, is called flare. I would hate to see WoWish crap in EVE

Kadarin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:39:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
So, you've got a single claoked alt sitting in your system....

And that's an issue because of what exactly ?


You don't feel safe ? OMG !
The answer is called puttin-an-alt/scout-of-your-own-in-nextdoor-systems-and-letting-all-friendlies-know-when-to-run-for-cover

Ofc, you could also try to set a trap for him and his friends if the prior tactic doesn't help for some reason. I bet they wouldn't expect to scramble a single bs in a belt only to be jumped by a dozen others from a safespot 15 au away.


Agreed. Simple common sense, here.

Phiberoptick
Gallente
Nation of Muppets
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:39:00 - [53]
 

why not just do the same to who ever is doing it to you?

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:42:00 - [54]
 

I'm thinking tech II Destroyers and depth charges.

ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
Posted - 2007.01.19 19:04:00 - [55]
 

You don't like it so clearly it's an exploit!Rolling Eyes

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2007.01.19 19:06:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Ekscalybur
Originally by: Gaunty
The problem is that there is no risk for the reward it gives. There has to be some sort of countermeasure even if its only a small chance.

Whatever about one alt sitting there, thats no big deal but when 8-10 BS sit in a SS cloaked in system pretty much all day only to emerge to gank a ship or two. Then they go back to being cloaked again for a few hours until its quiet again with no big gangs to fight them. Wheres the solution to that?


Reward? What reward is he getting? If its an alt like you said that isn't attended, he's gaining nothing. Except your aggravation.


I'm a bit surprised though. 2 pages of complaining about a cloaked ship sitting invisible for 2 weeks. Doesn't it dawn on the OP that's he should consider himself lucky that he even knows their is a cloaked ship in local? I mean, 2 weeks without moving or saying anything, and the OP knows without a doubt that this alt is out there. Someone should let the OP know that the best kind of spying is when the subject being spied on doesn't know he's being spied on.

The cloaked alt is not spying, he is just there for psychological warfare. If he didn't know the guy was out there, then it would not have it's intended effect.

ghoststalkertr
Posted - 2007.01.19 19:07:00 - [57]
 

The cloak should not be an "I win" button in 0.0, and thats exactly what it is. There should be a countermeasure to find cloaked ships.

Lucifer Fellblade
Evocati.
Posted - 2007.01.19 19:11:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: ghoststalkertr
The cloak should not be an "I win" button in 0.0, and thats exactly what it is. There should be a countermeasure to find cloaked ships.


Agreed 100,000%.

Nicocat
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.01.19 19:25:00 - [59]
 

The whine that cloaking = exploit is the worst whine ever. Whoever said it, please kindly stfu.

However, CCP does agree that cloaking is unbalanced. Remember, they were gonna implement probing of cloaked ships in Kali. They didn't, and that's not surprising, but they thought about it.

Spy4Hire
Posted - 2007.01.19 19:34:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Spy4Hire on 19/01/2007 19:35:06
There does need to be some way to counter cloaks, especially those annoying dweebites that just sit there doing nothing (not eveng gathering intelligence) loggied in 23/7.
Yes, I have seen this... which means that the account holder is just leaving that client open then going to work, or sleep, or what have you. So they can't be gathering any sort of intelligence, and are only meant to annoy. That, to my knowledge, is acknowledged as a petitionable offence (griefing or exploit or what have you)

Now... how to counter cloakers? There needs to be several ways:

POS module:
EM pulse wave generator.
Sends out an active energy 'ping' through the entire system, decloaking any and all cloaked vessels for 10 minutes. This is considered a hostile act in systems where the POS does not have soverignty (empire, et al). This also vastly increases the signature radius of any ship fitting a cloak making them easier to locate. It takes an hour to cycle back up and requires fuel of some sort.

Ship module:
High slot pulse wave generator.
Much like the POS module, sends out an active energy pulse that decloaks ships within its radius. Use of this module is not considered a hostile act.
Base range is 75km +25km/level of covert ops skill. Energy drain is moderate, duration 30 seconds. Decloaked ships will have to leave the field to re-cloak but suffer no recalibration delays other than normal.

Ship module:
Passive phase inversion sensor.
Medium slot, can only be used on a ship with a covert ops cloak fitted and active. In other words, this module can only be used while under cloak.
Range is unlimited, and seeks out the energy 'void' created by cloaked ships, allowing the pilot to visually see them. They will appear on the overview but without any range/velocity indicators, only shiptype/pilot name.
It will be up to the covert ops pilot to visually locate the vessel indicator and direct their allies toward it.


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