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CCP Abraxas

Posted - 2007.01.15 23:34:00 - [1]
 

This long-awaited chronicle is called "Methods of Torture - The Minmatar". It's a far more serious piece than the Amarrian one was, and deals with the subject of torture from a slightly different angle than might be expected, particularly of the long-suffering Minmatars. It wasn't going to be posted until tomorrow, but apparently our hard-working Web Cell people never rest, so kudos to them.

As I mentioned in my post on the Amarrian story, these two, the Amarrian and the Minmatar pieces, are meant as counterpoints to one another. The next story will be published two weeks from now, come hell or high water, and will show how the Gallente approach torture. (Messily, it turns out.)

General Xerxes
GREY COUNCIL
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2007.01.15 23:50:00 - [2]
 

Wow, not what I was expecting but excellent nevertheless. The torturer being tortured into be a torturer (If I udnerstood it correctly) was a nice twist and it certainly helps to show that there isnt really Good vs Evil in EVE, but rather lots of mixtures like real life.

Oliver Singh
Posted - 2007.01.16 00:06:00 - [3]
 

I want to bet Gallentean methods of torture will involve boy bands, equivalents of Barney and Teletubbies, Care Bears and other such horrors.

Either that or Matrix-style direct neural interface virtual reality, or a combination of.

Louis DelaBlanche
An Outlying Variable
Posted - 2007.01.16 03:16:00 - [4]
 

That was a very well written piece of work. It was certainly deeper then the Amarr one, & overall id say the better of the two. Interesting contrast between the stoic, efficient & "purifying" system used by the Amarr to the more manual, & clearly more spiritual methods of the Minmatar.

oooo & cant wait for the Gallente one. Although id imagined it being a more psychological form of torture (being Gallente n all) then ur lil teaser suggests. Then again, you dont have to punch someone to make them bruise Twisted Evil

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2007.01.16 13:57:00 - [5]
 

Shocked


I say again: Abraxas does some deep writing.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2007.01.16 15:18:00 - [6]
 

I have a deep unfettered love for Abraxas.

Conuion Meow


ISD YARR
Interstellar Services Department
Posted - 2007.01.16 16:52:00 - [7]
 

Another great job Abraxas.

To me this kinda seems like the shamanic journey in pretty much every step. The crisis, the test, and especially the journey, and after all that coming back changed. Quite deep really.

Aduna
Empire Market Corporation
Eve Trade Union
Posted - 2007.01.16 18:04:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Conuion Meow
Another great job Abraxas.

To me this kinda seems like the shamanic journey in pretty much every step. The crisis, the test, and especially the journey, and after all that coming back changed. Quite deep really.



that's exactly what this is. i went through something similar myself (spirit quest), so this story really rings deep with me. great job, and looking forward to the other two.

Terghon Tu
Amarr
DarkNet Node Fanaticus
Posted - 2007.01.16 21:09:00 - [9]
 

I see Abraxas is illustrating the different empires by using contrasting pairs. The Amarr have a very serious society. Sober, highly structured, very rigid and full of ritual and routine. Amarr torture seemed almost diabolically entertaining, like a circus funhouse gone bad, with the administrators seemingly light-hearted about their work.

The Minmatar obviously are very primitive in their actual torture. A wooden house padded with straw and low-tech implements that would probably be right at home in an iron-age culture. Yet they demand a great committment of their torturers, a refined spirituality more at home in a philosopher, a purity of purpose seen mostly in artists, and the objectivity of a surgeon coupled with compassion, instead of disconnected, dispassionate disinterest.

The Amarr are able to torture as they do because the subjects aren't "human" in their minds. The Minmatar never succumb to that temptation, but instead embrace it.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the hedonistic Gallente do, as well as how the pragmatic and militaristic Caldari extract information.


Garret Bataq
Gallente
The Aussie Connection Corp
Posted - 2007.01.16 22:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Terghon Tu
I see Abraxas is illustrating the different empires by using contrasting pairs. The Amarr have a very serious society. Sober, highly structured, very rigid and full of ritual and routine. Amarr torture seemed almost diabolically entertaining, like a circus funhouse gone bad, with the administrators seemingly light-hearted about their work.

The Minmatar obviously are very primitive in their actual torture. A wooden house padded with straw and low-tech implements that would probably be right at home in an iron-age culture. Yet they demand a great committment of their torturers, a refined spirituality more at home in a philosopher, a purity of purpose seen mostly in artists, and the objectivity of a surgeon coupled with compassion, instead of disconnected, dispassionate disinterest.

The Amarr are able to torture as they do because the subjects aren't "human" in their minds. The Minmatar never succumb to that temptation, but instead embrace it.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the hedonistic Gallente do, as well as how the pragmatic and militaristic Caldari extract information.



yea, it was definetly a well written piece. made me think maybe some sort of nanotechnology was involved or at least some drugs in the food.

if the Gallente torture is messy, then I bet the Caldari use direct mind scans, etc.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2007.01.16 23:43:00 - [11]
 


Damn good writing right there. Perfect story for matar.

Not at all what I expected and WELL worth the wait!


Takahashi Arran
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.01.17 00:06:00 - [12]
 

Although i was initially disappointed that a perfect opportunity for jokes about rust and duct-tape and their many uses had apparently been overlooked it was still an excellent story Smile

Ms Achura
Posted - 2007.01.17 00:29:00 - [13]
 

Awesome story. Abraxas, I hope you're planning to do the same thing for the Caldari/Gallente?

Amantus
Gallente
Malignant Enterprises
Posted - 2007.01.17 19:32:00 - [14]
 

An excellent piece of writing. I'm really looking forward to the Gallente one. My bet is that the Gallente method of torture will be more psychological. Either that or a carpet beater and a chair with the seat cut off Razz

Daggiz
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.01.17 20:59:00 - [15]
 

I re-read the Amarr one and than read this one again to stay fresh. It seemed that the Amarr took a certain amount of "glee" in their methods of torture and here we don't see the same "glee". Reluctance to do what needs to be done. The spritual journey mentioned above nailed it.

The sense of duty to the generations that follow is compelling. Great read. You start to feel a bit of sorrow that Song is "forced" to continue torturing, and that the change in temperment was made.

CCP Abraxas

Posted - 2007.01.17 23:40:00 - [16]
 

I'm very happy with the discussion in this thread. Yes, Song definitely went on a spiritual journey of sorts. Those bits of darkish root he ate were the EVE equivalent of peyote, with all that it entails.

Originally by: Terghon Tu
The Amarr are able to torture as they do because the subjects aren't "human" in their minds. The Minmatar never succumb to that temptation, but instead embrace it.
Precisely. The bare-bones approach taken by the Minmatar more or less forced me to write a somber, thoughtful piece for them. The Amarr, on the other hand, could only work if taken to extremes, either comedic or sadistic ones. I chose comedic because the story is effectively about the torturer, not the victim, and a sadistic torture story really needs the victim to take center place if it's to maintain its impact on the reader.

Originally by: Daggiz
You start to feel a bit of sorrow that Song is "forced" to continue torturing, and that the change in temperment was made.
I definitely wanted the ending to be ambiguous as to whether he made the right choice. We're told why he did it, but it's an ugly choice to make, and Song's last two lines of dialogue very much reflect that. You have to wonder what it is he was freed from, and what kind of monster he'll become.

Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche
oooo & cant wait for the Gallente one. Although id imagined it being a more psychological form of torture (being Gallente n all) then ur lil teaser suggests. Then again, you dont have to punch someone to make them bruise Twisted Evil
I was surprised at how many people believe the Gallente will take the cerebral route. They're easily the most hedonistic of all four Empires (or, at least, they're far more open about it than the rest), and as a result their way will be the most overtly physial. The Caldari, on the other hand, are going to be very cerebral in their work. Both stories will have victims as their focus, not the torturers as the Amarrian and Minmatar stories did, and will be considerably darker as a result.

Originally by: Amantus
My bet is that the Gallente method of torture will be more psychological. Either that or a carpet beater and a chair with the seat cut off Razz
The Gallente story most closely reflects my idea of actual torture, and will be very, very brutal. While the Amarrian piece had humour, and the Minmatar piece had pathos, the Gallente piece has neither. It's a bleak and hopeless story. The Caldari one won't be quite as bad, although, at its heart, it's even bleaker than the Gallente story. The Gallente piece will be more of a "I can't believe he just did that," whereas the Caldari will be "wtf did he just do?"

Originally by: Ginger.
I have a deep unfettered love for Abraxas.
Good thing you sit where I can see you, then.

Ramblin Man
Empyreum
Posted - 2007.01.18 00:44:00 - [17]
 

Probably my second favorite after The Ray of Matar. Smile

Originally by: Garret Bataq
yea, it was definetly a well written piece. made me think maybe some sort of nanotechnology was involved or at least some drugs in the food.

Clarke's Third Law cuts both ways. Simply, "It shouldn't matter."

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2007.01.18 13:08:00 - [18]
 

Will you be doing Methods of Torture for the Jove and there great enemy? Would be great if you did both.

Vaslav Tchitcherine
The White Visitation
Posted - 2007.01.19 06:32:00 - [19]
 

No one has yet commented on what was, to me, the most interesting aspect of the piece: the line of descendants, all broken.

Which is always the problem with prophecy, of course.

On a technical note, I'd be interested to know what rules you are following to establish your characters names, Abraxas. Malachai and Song have quite different etymologies!

This is your best so far.

Tarri
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.01.19 12:53:00 - [20]
 

Well written story. Only thing that bothers me is that a society that uses implants, clones (where knowledge is stored *hint*) and warp drives still has to use torture instead of some sort of "mind scanner".

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2007.01.19 17:09:00 - [21]
 

Cloning is not cheap most people cannot afford it and its much more cost effective to torture. The cost for 1 clone would be enough to torture 100s if not 1000s of people.

Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.01.19 18:04:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Cloning is not cheap most people cannot afford it and its much more cost effective to torture. The cost for 1 clone would be enough to torture 100s if not 1000s of people.


Indeed, most torture could be carried out for the price of a hamburger. You don't need millions of ISK to slowly cut someone apart, or to shoot them in the kneecap.

Terghon Tu
Amarr
DarkNet Node Fanaticus
Posted - 2007.01.19 19:21:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Terghon Tu on 19/01/2007 19:26:04
For every advance in "mind-scanning" technology, I'd think you'd also find advances in resisting such things. Polygraph machines (lie detectors) were all the rage for a while, but then fell into disrepute because they could be fooled deliberately and even when working perfectly depended hugely on interpretation by the questioner.

Assume a technology allows direct access to an individual's memories. How much data is that? How much drivel is the questioner going to have to sort through? If an interrogator is looking for military secrets, how much time will they waste on the subject's high school crush, his favorite sport, hobbies, etc.?

Then also there's another point. Is getting information the only point of interrogation and torture? The torture in Orwell's 1984 was only peripherally involved in finding information. The interrogator was mainly focused on adjusting the personality of the subject instead of finding information about other criminals.

While I'm sure that the various empires' intelligence agencies are interested in any information obtained, the actual interrogator/torturers have probably moved past that to some degree. Any bureaucratic entity seeks to maintain its own existence and grow. Governments and government agencies never get smaller by choice. The vast dark funhouse of the Amarr torture "chamber" obviously requires a lot of resources. If they were only interested in obtaining information as efficiently as possible, they could make do with much less, like the Minmatar hut. Of course the very crudeness of the Matari torture hut is itself a psychological tool, especially since the subjects would come mostly from societies more refined and used to high-tech "civilized" surroundings.

Abraxas has indirectly shown us a lot about Amarr and Matari society with these two. Amarr, a "spiritual" society on the outside, is very much concerned with objects, "things" in their torture. Their methods are very inhuman, very detached from emotion and spiritual considerations. The Matari, with their "primitive" society, are very intellectual torturers. They are concerned with doing the least amount of harm necessary, and very aware and as much focused on how the torture affects the torturer as the subject. In the traditions of C.S. Lewis and H.G. Wells, the Matari society would be considered more "advanced" because of this, while the callousness of the Amarr would be ascribed to a "brutish" younger civilization. Yet it's the Amarr that consider the Matari barbarians. :)

Za Po
Caldari
Posted - 2007.01.20 15:06:00 - [24]
 

I'd agree with Terghon. If anyone, I think the Jove would use brain-scanning to extract informations from prisoners. They invented the technology which is used to link cameras to our nerves, and to transfer our memories when we get podded, so they are undoubtedly the masters of brain-machine interfacing. But neither of these technologies are sufficient to actually turn memories into something that can be displayed on a screen. None of the four playable Empires seem to have such a deep understanding of the brain as to actually pull information out of it. But the Jove might.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2007.01.20 16:01:00 - [25]
 

so they are undoubtedly the masters of brain-machine interfacing.
The masters of brain technology are the Joves enemy whos understanding of the brain and technology in this area is currently beyond Jove understanding.

Aslann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.01.23 00:20:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CCP Abraxas
The Gallente story most closely reflects my idea of actual torture, and will be very, very brutal.


Oww yea, Gallente ftw YARRRR!!.

Awesome Chronicle again, as usual.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2007.01.24 09:23:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: CCP Abraxas
Originally by: Amantus
My bet is that the Gallente method of torture will be more psychological. Either that or a carpet beater and a chair with the seat cut off Razz
The Gallente story most closely reflects my idea of actual torture, and will be very, very brutal. While the Amarrian piece had humour, and the Minmatar piece had pathos, the Gallente piece has neither. It's a bleak and hopeless story. The Caldari one won't be quite as bad, although, at its heart, it's even bleaker than the Gallente story. The Gallente piece will be more of a "I can't believe he just did that," whereas the Caldari will be "wtf did he just do?"




ooooohhh...

can't wait.

CCP Abraxas

Posted - 2007.01.24 11:51:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ramblin Man
Clarke's Third Law cuts both ways. Simply, "It shouldn't matter."
It shouldn't, and in any other story it wouldn't, but in this case it does, since the whole "eating peyote, vomiting profusely, having visions" bit is part of that whole mystical process.

Originally by: Pottsey
Will you be doing Methods of Torture for the Jove and there great enemy?
Nope, no Jove. The order of publication will be Amarr, Minmatar, Gallente and Caldari. After that I move on to other, more kindly things, including an interesting new bit of Amarr canon.

Originally by: Vaslav Tchitcherine
On a technical note, I'd be interested to know what rules you are following to establish your characters names, Abraxas. Malachai and Song have quite different etymologies!
This is a little embarrassing. I always have a particular reason for the names I choose, even if they're just "Bob" and "John". Sometimes it's symbolic, sometimes it's personal, and sometimes it's merely whimsical. But I've completely forgotten why I chose those two names.

Originally by: Tarri
Only thing that bothers me is that a society that uses implants, clones (where knowledge is stored *hint*) and warp drives still has to use torture instead of some sort of "mind scanner".
The posters here have covered this point pretty thoroughly - money, impetus and technology are all stumbling blocks - but also, keep in mind that people are being tortured. Not investigated, not put under corporate pressure, not pumped for information, but actively being broken down in body and spirit. Torture has its uses, revolting as they are, and they're much more on the order of enforcing civil obedience than of acquiring information. Terghon Tu touched on this, and the last lines of dialogue in the Minmatar story have an intentional reference to the last lines in the book he mentioned.

The Gallente and Caldari stories will underline the point that no matter what anyone claims to the contrary, the primary reason for torture really is the torture itself. The Caldari story does actually have a fairly advanced piece of mind-scan-ish technology, but it's used in the manner I described: Not to extract information, but to exact torture on the victim.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2007.01.26 05:44:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 26/01/2007 05:41:12
I'm quite looking forward to seeing the Gallente story. I think too many Gallente players are far too eager to see their race as the "good guys" of EVE, when in fact they have deep-rooted flaws as well - arrogance, hedonism, little to no sense of charity or higher purpose, and possibly even a secret sadistic streak (they did repeatedly bombard a planet from orbit one time, after all)

Of course, that's probably true of all EVE players - whether or not we consciously role-play, we all tend to focus on the positive aspects of the race we have chosen. Caldari players prefer to see the team spirit and efficiency of their race, ignoring the callous mercenary attitude and the corruption. Amarrian players like the sense of glory, power and higher purpose, glossing over the neophobic tendencies and arrogance, and Matari players are always going to see their race as the "courageous Underdogs" and never once pay any attention to the grudge-bearing, violent side of the matar.

You've got to love a setting that presents such an extraordinary wealth of character background in such a short space, really.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2007.01.27 04:13:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 27/01/2007 04:10:10

"I was surprised at how many people believe the Gallente will take the cerebral route. They're easily the most hedonistic of all four Empires (or, at least, they're far more open about it than the rest), and as a result their way will be the most overtly physial."

"it's fun to joke about getting screwed to death only until it actually happens to you and you have no say in how it goes" :s


"The Caldari, on the other hand, are going to be very cerebral in their work."

Is that why one can never rent Room 1o1 when docking at Caldari station..? o.


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