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blankseplocked Transfering ice/ore from one jet can to another - griefing?
 
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Blind Man
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2007.01.12 17:55:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Lin Dze
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
In fact, the more I think about this, the more I'm thinking RISK Vs REWARD!!!

My risk was using a jetcan... where was his risk?



Having gang-mates warp in with a couple battleships and then say "Hello, our names are Inigo and Montoya. You stole from our friend's can. Prepare to die."


i lol'ed Laughing

Brutor Shaun
Posted - 2007.01.12 18:19:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: Xelios
Anchor a couple secure cans next to you, problem solved Wink
Does anyone else need to point out that is a clueless statement? Secure cans are not big enough to matter much when Ice mining.


That's ignoring the fact that you can only anchor them 5000m apart, and 5000m away from any other cans. Not many ice fields where you can get a clear 5000m from another can.


Humpalot
Posted - 2007.01.12 18:21:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Brutor Shaun
That's ignoring the fact that you can only anchor them 5000m apart, and 5000m away from any other cans. Not many ice fields where you can get a clear 5000m from another can.




That and you can fill a GSC in a few minutes with Ice.

Secure cans are FAR more trouble than they are worth. I suppose if you are mining with a frig it could take awhile to fill one but barges fill them so fast it's stupid.

Brutor Shaun
Posted - 2007.01.12 18:23:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Humpalot
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
That's ignoring the fact that you can only anchor them 5000m apart, and 5000m away from any other cans. Not many ice fields where you can get a clear 5000m from another can.




That and you can fill a GSC in a few minutes with Ice.

Secure cans are FAR more trouble than they are worth. I suppose if you are mining with a frig it could take awhile to fill one but barges fill them so fast it's stupid.


WTB: Ice mining frigate Wink


Ralus
Caldari
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.01.12 18:49:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: ee21k
1. when you see possible ore thief approching, stop your miners mining, open your can, right click 'select all', drag all selected item over to your hold BUT dont release the button. When ore thief tries to take your stuff he is told that it is already in use.


that's brilliant, I never knew you could do that.

Vladikov Orrico
Posted - 2007.01.12 22:25:00 - [36]
 

If I was the guy trying to steal the stuff I would stick aroudn and see just how long the guy could keep his hand on the mouse button...

His hand has gotta cramp at some point....

Trotski II
Rasta Tropical Club
Posted - 2007.01.12 22:37:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Vladikov Orrico
If I was the guy trying to steal the stuff I would stick aroudn and see just how long the guy could keep his hand on the mouse button...

His hand has gotta cramp at some point....


/takes note and adds this option to macro-miner bot Surprised

David Corbett
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.01.12 22:38:00 - [38]
 

Fun fact about mining barges: the elite ones have lots of med-slots and lock real fast. If you have guards with you, your barges can shut the enemies down with webs, scrambler, and EW while the guards pwn your enemies. Haulers are great for EW in this sort of situation, too. :)

Or, more ideally, don't mine ice in crowded systems. Or keep a friend in a hauler next to you. Or mine in an anchored can. Or stop mining altogether and declare war on his corp!

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.13 01:20:00 - [39]
 

Wow... Once again I find myself in the anti-ore thief thread.
As a professional ore thief, I would like to chime in on some of the things that have been mentioned so far.

1. Flipping miner cans is not griefing - it is most always done with profit in mind. I flip cans in my small combat ship. Then I have someone haul the ore out (especially in the case of macro miners), or I wait for the annoyed miner to flip the can back. If the miner comes back in a combat ship, it is even better. Most miners have big, expensive, poor fitted ships, low combat skillpoints, and no combat player skill.

2. If you (or your corpmates) indeed do have nice combat ships, and enough skillpoints where it matters - why are you still mining high sec ore into jetcans? No, you won't win a fight with an experienced ore thief - even if he is in a small ship or a hauler. No, it is not profitable for your corpmates to guard 27000 m3 of Scordite in three Caldari Navy Ravens.

3. If you attack a thief's hauler, you become flagged to the thief for the next 15 minutes. Yes, you can destroy the cheap hauler. Expect the "thief" to come back at you in the next 30 seconds in an AF, HAC, or a battleship, and open up on you with all the modules he has fitted. And he will have better modules and skills than you do, not to mention the player skill. I use this "I am just stealing ore" trick all the time, I have lost 3-4 Iteron Mark IIs, and I have killed and looted quite a few mining barges and escort ships.

My friendly advice to all miners:
-never, ever, ever mine afk
-don't mine in jetcans
-if you do mine in a jetcan, and if your can got flipped, don't fight (you WILL lose), and don't flip it back
-convo the thief and try to come to a mutually beneficial agreement (pay him a few million for leaving your corp alone for a week, or promise him some percentage from your mining - and keep your word)
-use an alt in a shuttle or Velator to flip the can back (don't lose that battleship of yours - you WILL lose it, and your ore too)
-if the thief warped out right after the flip, use your scanner to see where he is
-watch local for his corpmates

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2007.01.13 01:32:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 13/01/2007 01:28:47
I see no problem with transfering, that's merely another technicque of ore thefth, and that's allright.

However, transferring particularly with the idea of destroying, well, that could be different, sounds awfully grieffy to me tbh, unless maytbe there's a war situation at hand.

Venkhar Krard
Posted - 2007.01.13 01:35:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Quilan Ziller

2. If you (or your corpmates) indeed do have nice combat ships, and enough skillpoints where it matters - why are you still mining high sec ore into jetcans?

Expect the "thief" to come back at you in the next 30 seconds in an AF, HAC, or a battleship, and open up on you with all the modules he has fitted. And he will have better modules and skills than you do, not to mention the player skill.


Why would a highly combat skilled af ,hac or bs pilot waste time with ore stealing from noobs in high sec ?

Oh pls.., ore thiefs are not an elite pwn3n gang, if they steal from you, get some experienced friends and bomb them back to stone age, or just ignore them and go watching some tv..

InigoMontoya
Amarr
Obsidian Front
Posted - 2007.01.13 01:36:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Lin Dze
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
In fact, the more I think about this, the more I'm thinking RISK Vs REWARD!!!

My risk was using a jetcan... where was his risk?



Having gang-mates warp in with a couple battleships and then say "Hello, our names are Inigo and Montoya. You stole from our friend's can. Prepare to die."


It is true, we can (for a fee) help defend against this sort of issue.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.13 02:44:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Venkhar Krard

Why would a highly combat skilled af ,hac or bs pilot waste time with ore stealing from noobs in high sec ?

Oh pls.., ore thiefs are not an elite pwn3n gang, if they steal from you, get some experienced friends and bomb them back to stone age, or just ignore them and go watching some tv..


You have posed a good question, and I will give you some good answers.
1. It can be very, very profitable. No, not the high sec ore itself, obviously. But if I flag and gank an unsuspecting hauler, I can make quite a bit of ISK from those named or T2 cargo expanders. If I gank an "escort" ship, I can score some good named mods. If I gank a barge - I get various flavors of Strip Miners. Which the victim will, most probably, buy right back from me. I speak from experience here... Most of my income used to come from 0.0 ratting, but now I rarely jump into my clone in Stain anymore - high sec rats^H^H^H^H^H hard working miners drop better lootYARRRR!!. Then there is the whole "protection" racket...
2. It is sooo fun! Sometimes people in high sec mine with [drumroll] faction battleships, and think it is a very smart idea. Sometimes they use their Hulk to sic a few small kinetic drones on a "thieving" Ishkur, and then don't pay the ransom. Yet other times they get half their corp concordokken'd, smack in local and think it was a bugLaughing. Or they bring a Raven fitted with large Projectile turrets to kill a "thief". Macro miners are a separate issue - have you ever been smacked in chinese?
3. Almost every big, well organized mining op I have attacked have tried to bring in some "experienced friends" to bomb me to kingdom come. The result, sadly for them, has been the opposite most of the time. Most people don't even have a complete understanding of high sec aggression rules. Even if they don't get concordokken'd straight out, they usually just add to the body count.
4. No, I don't have any overly uber skills, and have never claimed that. However, if someone approximately 6 months old or less flies a Hulk, or mines/escorts miners in that shiny battleship, it is obvious that I will win the fight 10 times out of 10 Cool

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.13 02:47:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: InigoMontoya
Having gang-mates warp in with a couple battleships and then say "Hello, our names are Inigo and Montoya. You stole from our friend's can. Prepare to die."


It is true, we can (for a fee) help defend against this sort of issue.



Gang members don't get an aggro flag against a thief. The flag is limited to the corp itself.
You will be able to jet your can for the miners to mine into, but it will be of only very limited utility (OK, I have to stop divulging my trade secrets at this point) Cool

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.13 03:00:00 - [45]
 

Oh, I have one more observation to add to this thread.
I have noticed that "ore thief" is one of the most hated professions in EVE - right up there with corp thieves aka social engineers, and suicide gankers.
There are plenty of anti-ore thief threads on these forums. If a practicing thief is being caught red-handed, some very unprofessional smack in local is almost a certainty. Ransoming ore is almost out of question - a lot of miners I meet would rather have the ore can blown up than pay a reasonable 500K fee to get their prized possession back.
Can flagging and thieving is the only viable way of high sec piracy. It can be quite risky - more so than the traditional low sec piracy. Concord is on your victim's side, your friends can't help you. If you made a bad choice of target, you lose your ship. Yet, we ore thieves, are not getting any respect of the kind traditional low sec pirates do Rolling Eyes
Why is it so?

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2007.01.13 03:05:00 - [46]
 

1.
Originally by: Lord WarATron

Blowing up a can activates a 15 minute timer that is reset if he logs off before the 15mins is up.

You probe him out and have all the time in the world to get a noobship kill on him!

And yes - I have tested this - You stay for 15mins in space after you log if you blow up a can! And ore theft aggro is 15 mins anyway so work it out and blow up his ship :)


2. Changing these transfer mechanics will break a lot of stuff, especially in "friendly" situations.


Dahak2150
Arm of Orion
Posted - 2007.01.13 04:07:00 - [47]
 

Ought to be able to retake your ore from another can without getting flagged. After all, it is yours.

Tarquin Tarquinius
Gallente
Escorts of Eve
Posted - 2007.01.13 04:14:00 - [48]
 

going back to the original question, I don't think it is a problem with game mechanics. I don't see why you should need space in your cargo bay, you're putting the ore there. You're transfering it from one can to another.

Even if you did need cargo space, it wouldn't stop this from happening. It would just be done at about ~400m3 at a time.

Lithalnas
Amarr
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2007.01.13 04:31:00 - [49]
 

First of all, we don't go after thieves that go for more than 5k isk worth of ore. Secondly, i run both a hauler and protection, meaning that i jet the cans from my bestower while a corp mate fills it. We try to keep it empty most of the time.

Thirdly on the rare occasion that there is ore in the can and someone jacks it i will come back in an assault frig with a scrambler or an abaddon with a scrambler. Pop their ship and hold their pod for the better part of an hour. Its mildly evil but there is no sec hit or concordukken.


Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.13 04:37:00 - [50]
 

The only thing I can possibly see wrong with this is that when you flip the ore to a new can the person who might eventually pick it up and haul it away would not get flaged.

So potentially it could be abused by someone sitting in a scout ship I suppose but I can't imagine actually avoiding the PvP flag is very useful in the first place.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.01.13 04:49:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Quilan Ziller on 13/01/2007 04:48:17
Originally by: Lithalnas
First of all, we don't go after thieves that go for more than 5k isk worth of ore. Secondly, i run both a hauler and protection, meaning that i jet the cans from my bestower while a corp mate fills it. We try to keep it empty most of the time.

Thirdly on the rare occasion that there is ore in the can and someone jacks it i will come back in an assault frig with a scrambler or an abaddon with a scrambler. Pop their ship and hold their pod for the better part of an hour. Its mildly evil but there is no sec hit or concordukken.




LaughingLaughingLaughing
You, sir, have just won the prize for the most BS post in the whole thread.
First of all, if you try to scramble the thieve's pod AFTER popping his ship, you WILL get concordokken'd. Right away, with extreme prejudice. That's a hard fact. Not that you will be able to easily lock a pod with a battleship oreven an AF.
Second, it takes more than 20 seconds to change ships when you dock. Add warping time to that.
Do you think an ore thief is still going to be sitting in the belt waiting for your Abaddon with aggro to your entire corp? If he is - good for you. But not many people will. Not me for sure, and not anyone I know.
When you post, try to stick to your area of expertise so as not to embarrass yourself like you just did.Cool
People like you are what makes ore thieving and high sec piracy so fun. Yes, you have exaggerated your achievements your post, but I bet you DO come after ore thieves in poorly fitted Abaddons. What system do you mine in, incidentally? Any Local Hull Conversions on your Abaddon I should know of? Maybe a good damage control?

Lithalnas
Amarr
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2007.01.13 05:05:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Lithalnas on 13/01/2007 05:02:20
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Edited by: Quilan Ziller on 13/01/2007 04:48:17
LaughingLaughingLaughing
You, sir, have just won the prize for the most BS post in the whole thread.
First of all, if you try to scramble the thieve's pod AFTER popping his ship, you WILL get concordokken'd. Right away, with extreme prejudice. That's a hard fact. Not that you will be able to easily lock a pod with a battleship oreven an AF.
Second, it takes more than 20 seconds to change ships when you dock. Add warping time to that.
Do you think an ore thief is still going to be sitting in the belt waiting for your Abaddon with aggro to your entire corp? If he is - good for you. But not many people will. Not me for sure, and not anyone I know.
When you post, try to stick to your area of expertise so as not to embarrass yourself like you just did.Cool
People like you are what makes ore thieving and high sec piracy so fun. Yes, you have exaggerated your achievements your post, but I bet you DO come after ore thieves in poorly fitted Abaddons. What system do you mine in, incidentally? Any Local Hull Conversions on your Abaddon I should know of? Maybe a good damage control?


then why did i do it in xxx system 2 days ago in an interceptor, granted he shot back at my interceptor. My ship is still intact as far as i can tell. AND if you don't believe me here is a screen shot. This was the 2nd or 3rd noob ship he lost after swapping cans. Notice the 0.5 sec.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/KhanProject/undergank2.jpg

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.01.13 06:44:00 - [53]
 

Sorry this isn't an exploit.

There are a few ways to get around this.

One would be to train anchoring skill and transfer to an anchored secure can if you need to mine alone. They hold around 3900 cubic meters for the Giant Secure Container. You can't place them closer than 5km from each other or asteroids. So you could set up 2 or 3 and then haul when you can.

The other solution would be to have a buddy ganged with you to help you keep an eye out for ore thieves.


Shameless Avenger
Posted - 2007.01.13 06:54:00 - [54]
 

The capacity of the secure cans suck balls. It's not a real option.

If alone, warp to base on every full cargo-hold. Even if it's a 1.0 space... especially if it's a 1.0 space.

If you can spare 12 bucks a month (using GTC), get a 2nd account and use it as your hauler.

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.01.13 06:56:00 - [55]
 

I do agree we need secure cans that can hold more :), but I disagree that its not a viable solution :)

I'd love to have one that held around 13000 cubic meters and took up 10k cubic meters space.

Shameless Avenger
Posted - 2007.01.13 06:59:00 - [56]
 

Well, if the secure can has less capacity than my barge's cargo-hold... ehm... don't sound viable to me.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.01.13 08:55:00 - [57]
 

The position in the OP is clear, and this IS a case of griefing.
If he deliberately spoilt your gameplay, and that was the sole intent of his actions, then it is griefing.

If he had kept even 1 unit of ice it would not have been.

Cipher7
Posted - 2007.01.13 09:17:00 - [58]
 


Of course it's griefing.

But this is Eve, that's practically the selling point.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.01.13 09:20:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Cipher7

Of course it's griefing.

But this is Eve, that's practically the selling point.


No, it is griefing as in the sort disallowed by the TOS, not the same.

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2007.01.13 09:32:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Kuolematon on 13/01/2007 10:51:31
B(l)oB preaching people about griefing .. priceless Laughing

Stealing your ore and then blowing it up is legimate game play. Stop calling it griefing.

I just heard: GO SADAO! Laughing


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