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Brutor Shaun
Posted - 2007.01.11 20:37:00 - [1]
 

Go to salvage a wreck....get a pop-up "You are about to salvage a wreck containing loot. If you proceed you will lose the loot. Continue anyway? Yes/No."

Just another passing thought.


Jim McGregor
Posted - 2007.01.11 20:39:00 - [2]
 


I would prefer "You are about to salvage a wreck containing loot. Transfer loot to cargo bay? Yes/No".

Looting while salvaging ftw. Wink

Zaphod Jones
Minmatar
The Real OC
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.01.11 20:41:00 - [3]
 

how about as soon as you kill it all the loot goes to your cargo directly and any salvagable bits too Rolling Eyes

Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.11 20:44:00 - [4]
 

Even better it could just auto transfer the loot to your cargo bay and if it doesn't find enough room it could do a pop up.

Looting is too much of a pita in this game. It doesn't increase my fun-factor in any way to deal with all that hassale. Should get rid of the targeting and locking all together and just let you turn on salvagers and tractor beams and what not then let it automatically pull everything in and get it sorted into your cargo. If it still takes time that's fine as long as it becomes less irritating.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.01.11 20:50:00 - [5]
 

I think the idea is to ensure that you'll get flagged if you're taking someone elses salvage.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2007.01.11 20:53:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Sorela
Even better it could just auto transfer the loot to your cargo bay and if it doesn't find enough room it could do a pop up.

Looting is too much of a pita in this game. It doesn't increase my fun-factor in any way to deal with all that hassale. Should get rid of the targeting and locking all together and just let you turn on salvagers and tractor beams and what not then let it automatically pull everything in and get it sorted into your cargo. If it still takes time that's fine as long as it becomes less irritating.


Some players feel its dumbing down Eve to have automatic looting and stuff like that though. I dont really agree personally, since I put fun above most other things. If its tedious or difficult, it should be made easier and more fun.

There is no player skill in looting anyway.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2007.01.11 21:08:00 - [7]
 

The other day I pulled an Arbalest assault missile launcher out of a mission wreck somebody else couldn't be bothered to loot.

One of the neat things about this game is that there are all kinds of neat little niches for folks who are willing to do stuff that other folks can't be bothered with. Make everything too easy (in this case, looting) and those niches go away.

Great for the player who just wants to easy-mode his way through the game, but not great for the richness and complexity of the game as a whole.

Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.11 21:29:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

Some players feel its dumbing down Eve to have automatic looting and stuff like that though. I dont really agree personally, since I put fun above most other things. If its tedious or difficult, it should be made easier and more fun.



Well I'm not suggesting it be "automatic" per-se. I've no problem with clicking some buttons. I just see no reason for certain incredibly stupid constraints.

1) There should be absofrickinglutely no reason that I need to lock a wreck to tractor it.
2) There should be long range tractors (maybe "large" or whatever).
3) I shouldn't have to select every single wreck then tractor it then detractor it then wait for the tractor to cycle so I can tractor in a new one. Locking complicates this further.
4) Salvaging just complicated everything even further when it was already bad.

5) None of this should take any freaking slots!

To me the way loot in this game works is the biggest signal that the Dev's don't even play anymore (or they just PvP or something). I remember when I came back to EvE for the first time looting struck me as the most unprofessional amateurish seeming thing in the game and I can imagine it turns off lots of new players for no added benefit whatsoever.

There are ways to make it non automatic and not tedius if that's the real complaint those people have.

Haffrage
Regeneration
Posted - 2007.01.11 21:44:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sorela
1) There should be absofrickinglutely no reason that I need to lock a wreck to tractor it.

I suppose eve will READ YOUR MIND to tell which can you want tractored with your tractor beam that is now no longer even a module, but instead is implemented directly into your ship?

Eve does NOT need smartbomb tractor beams.

Misaprop
Complify
Posted - 2007.01.11 21:47:00 - [10]
 

Auto looting would add another way for people to farm with macros.

Gareth Angel
Gallente
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2007.01.11 21:47:00 - [11]
 

To me it's just as simple as this:

You do a mission, then you decide if you want to loot/salvage.

If no - no problem, just leave the stuff and it'll disappear in an hour or so.

If yes - you go through some trouble looting and through some more trouble when you want to salvage as well.

I do my missions in an Absolution, then if I decide it's worth it I get a destroyer with 4/4 Tractors/Salvagers and go get the stuff.

Not so hard in my opinion. If I have too much loot in my cargobay I just eject the crap and keep the better stuff - can always come back for the container if I really wanna have all of it.

It's my choice to go and loot/salvage, so I don't mind going through some trouble for it. Leave it like it is, it's fine.

Don't like it? Then don't do it.

hitech redneck
Digital Mind Crimes
Posted - 2007.01.11 22:29:00 - [12]
 

ibelive the programes got a bit lazy on the loot salvage thing.
Options
1) when ship explodes it leaves a loot can and a wreck. you can then decide which one you want to bother with

2) Current method but the system allows you to salvage a ship without looting. Once ship is salvaged a loot can apears if there was loot to be taken.

3) Current method but system will allow to salavege without looting and leave the wreck till it looted or the timer runs out.

I like option 2 myself.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2007.01.11 22:40:00 - [13]
 

Sorela's comments remind me of a downside to the rich diversity of this game. There's often zero understanding of how the game mechanics are used by others.

Case in point. I'm a "salvager", have been since forever. My whole fun in this games comes from opening cans (now wrecks) to see what is in 'em, and then haul it home. (Like most salvagers, I don't much care who used to own the stuff in question.) I like it *much* more than I like killing stuff. Enraged former owners just make it more fun.

A standard ten minute's use of the lock-tractor-loot mechanics for me goes like this: A corpmate warps into a belt in a small combat vessel, spies a jet can full of insufficiently-nailed-down ore. He jettisons something to create his own can, locks that can, tractors that can, flies to the full can, flips the items, starts to fly away, engages in combat if need be, continues to fly away. I warp in in my cargo ship, he drops his full can off the tractor, unlocks it, I lock it, I tractor it, I empty it into my hold, we leave.

Leave aside for a moment what you think of that gameplay. Point is, there's a lot of steps, and those steps take time. There are lots of opportunities for other actors to intervene, for those steps to go wrong, for all sorts of chaos to crop up. It's a mildly complex situation.

Nuke all those complexities and -- depending on how you did it -- my gameplay event might go away, or it might become radically easier for me, or it might become radically harder. But the point is, the lock requirement, the tractor rules, the can opening and closing, each of these things has a real world gaming impact. Saying "there's absolutely no reason" for any of them is either (a) ignorant of vast swathes of gameplay or (b) dismissive of those vast swathes.

So, with all respect, when I read something like this, what I actually hear is "I just want to play the parts of this game that interest me, all the other parts should be nerfed so they don't get in my way."

Sorry, not impressed.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.01.11 22:58:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
Even better it could just auto transfer the loot to your cargo bay and if it doesn't find enough room it could do a pop up.


completely agreed. looting is to boring and tedious.

Anatolius
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.01.11 23:02:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Sorela

To me the way loot in this game works is the biggest signal that the Dev's don't even play anymore (or they just PvP or something). I remember when I came back to EvE for the first time looting struck me as the most unprofessional amateurish seeming thing in the game and I can imagine it turns off lots of new players for no added benefit whatsoever.



I agree completely. In fact, earning ISK is too much of an annoyance, too, I want battleships, fully fitted, to spring out of my arse and into my hangar whenever I'm not logged in to the game.


Gareth Angel
Gallente
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2007.01.11 23:27:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
...lotsawordsnstuff...


Although I agree with you mostly, I couldn't suppress laughter about that you call simple ore-theft 'salvaging'.

Seriously - Laughing

For the further content of your post - I agree.

Emperor D'Hoffryn
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2007.01.11 23:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Marlenus

So, with all respect, when I read something like this, what I actually hear is "I just want to play the parts of this game that interest me, all the other parts should be nerfed so they don't get in my way."


this about sums it up. If you dont like salvaging, DONT DO IT. You shouldnt get it for free cause you are to lazy to work for it.
When I fly through 0.0 and see battleships wrecks at the gate, i love to sneak over and salvage them, hoping no one jumps on me while im sitting prone 15km from the gate or so. It also gives hints at recent battles more so then just cans, as when you picked up all the lot, can went away, and 5 min after the battle, so sign of it remained.

wrecks are cool. If you dont like them, ignore them.

Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.12 00:01:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Sorela on 12/01/2007 00:24:39
Originally by: Haffrage

I suppose eve will READ YOUR MIND to tell which can you want tractored with your tractor beam that is now no longer even a module, but instead is implemented directly into your ship?


Wow talk about a leap from a knee-jerk reaction. I just said you shouldn't have to lock. Is EVE preforming telepathy and reading my mind when I warp to a stargate without locking onto it? Are there secret psiops in the stations detecting my intention to dock everytime I feel like going inside?

Quote:

I agree completely. In fact, earning ISK is too much of an annoyance, too, I want battleships, fully fitted, to spring out of my arse and into my hangar whenever I'm not logged in to the game.

I was not actually suggesting looting be speeded up by the way. Only that it be made less irritating.

Kldraina
Posted - 2007.01.12 00:09:00 - [19]
 

I think it would be best if salvaging a wreck that still had loot, resulted in the wreck becoming a can with the loot inside.

Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.12 00:12:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
Sorela's comments remind me of a downside to the rich diversity of this game. There's often zero understanding of how the game mechanics are used by others.



I think in this case it was just zero understanding of my points due in part to me not elaborating. I was not actually suggesting anything about tractoring be changed except for the actual action of needing to lock onto the can before you tractor it.

Nothing about my suggestion even remotely changes the scenario you describe. The lock time for cans is already very small but if you are suggesting that's somehow significant we can always setup a rule like your tractor takes a short time to find the beacon on unidentified wrecks etc etc.

So, with all respect, when I read something like your post, what I actually hear is "Crap my knee just hit the bottom of my desk and it @#$#@$$ hurts so instead of spending a thought to think about how your perfectly reasonable complaint can be meshed with my gameplay I'm just going to say you're a whiner."

Sorry, not impressed.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2007.01.12 00:25:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Gareth Angel

Although I agree with you mostly, I couldn't suppress laughter about that you call simple ore-theft 'salvaging'.


LOL, it's not all that simple when you do it in industrial quantities. Bustards with cargo expander rigs don't grow on trees, y'know.

And anyway, laughter is more fun than what I usually get. Wink

Like it says in the corporate description, we'll haul away anything that's not nailed down. And if we can pry it up (we like heavy missiles for this) it wasn't nailed down. YARRRR!!

Actanna Levh
Minmatar
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Posted - 2007.01.12 00:34:00 - [22]
 

Sorela you did say “None of this should take any freaking slots!” making it sound like you were suggesting all loot and salvage should begin gravitating toward you and leap into your cargohold at the click a button but that this “button” should not be attached to any need for modules or any targeting.

The comment “To me the way loot in this game works is the biggest signal that the Dev's don't even play anymore” also seems inflammatory.

I’ve been doing a lot of salvaging since it appeared. I find it engaging enough especially in low sec space where you need to be on your toes. It has not really changed the mission running experience that much which is still : target, activate modules, next target etc (with pirate drones exchanged for wrecks in the next pass).

My impression was that one of the key points behind salvage was to reduce the emphasis on “speed” mission running as well as “speed” ratting as means to get rich quick which it seems to do well enough. Both are still viable but players now have to decide whether to go back and pick up valuables left behind. This is best done in a different ship fit and which adds to diversity and character.

I agree with Marlenus that niche roles and mini professions such as salvaging are good and believe they increase player interaction.

I agree with Jim as well. There does not seem to be any point in having to move modules from the wreck and then having to activate salvagers. Since the wreck has to be clear in the first place salvagers may as well do this in one go. I think this might be better than the OP’s original suggestion.

Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.12 00:48:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Sorela on 12/01/2007 00:45:43
Originally by: Actanna Levh
Sorela you did say “None of this should take any freaking slots!”
making it sound like you were suggesting all loot and salvage should begin gravitating toward you and leap into your cargohold at the click a button but that this “button” should not be attached to any need for modules or any targeting.


Let me ask you this honestly: Did it really "sound" like that or did the idea of easier looting threaten something about the game you like and you automatically assumed a worst case scenario? If it did then sorry for being confusing but I've been doing this for 10 years now and I notice a trend where players want to shoot ideas down before thinking about how they can work.

The slots point was that I shouldn't need a second ship just to pick up basic loot. I wasn't really refering to salavaging at all on that point. Salvaging should deffinetly take slots.

Quote:
The comment “To me the way loot in this game works is the biggest signal that the Dev's don't even play anymore” also seems inflammatory.

It IS inflammatory. If you get upset at another paying customer for suggesting that an amateurish section of game design reflects poorly on the Developers then I don't really know what to say. The interface for looting is dog poor and the way it's all achieved has a severe lack of POLISH.

As for the rest of your comment I agree with you on nearly everything my post was actually almost 99% refering to looting and none of it was directed at salvaging at all. My only complaint towards salvaging was it managed to make REGULAR looting more complicated. Perhaps me posting it in a salvaging thread had people thinking I was talking about salvaging methods.

Ranor
DAB
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.01.12 00:48:00 - [24]
 

Manually looting cans is fine but even a small change such as increasing loot/salvage range to 15k would help a ton and make the game a lot more fun. Especially for new players who are often turned off by the pointless tedious parts of the game.

Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.12 00:53:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ranor
Manually looting cans is fine but even a small change such as increasing loot/salvage range to 15k would help a ton and make the game a lot more fun. Especially for new players who are often turned off by the pointless tedious parts of the game.


Honestly if they want to make salvaging a miniprofession it's too easy as is. Instead of making the salvaging portion of things easier I think making it more complex would be the better method. Then increase the rewards you get to reflect more time spent.

Personally I find the idea that salvaging is something you do after your mission running as some sort of 1-2-3 easy step kind of ruins the idea in the first place. It should represent new gameplay mechanics not another source of tedium.

Actanna Levh
Minmatar
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Posted - 2007.01.12 01:24:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Sorela
Personally I find the idea that salvaging is something you do after your mission running as some sort of 1-2-3 easy step kind of ruins the idea in the first place. It should represent new gameplay mechanics not another source of tedium.


I understand what you are saying with this and agree in part. On the other hand, as a salvager I can strike a deal with the mission runner for bookmark locations / salvage.

I don't know for sure but I think that in the early days of Revelations the design intent was that exploration salvage was greater than belt salvage and mission salvage was meant to be least. Along the way players complained about many things some things have been fixed, so the situation has changed.

The devs appear to have been responding to try and improve the rig supply / price situation and improve interfacing. No doubt there is still more to be done which I suppose is why we debate this in forums.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.01.12 01:34:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sorela
Originally by: Jim McGregor

Some players feel its dumbing down Eve to have automatic looting and stuff like that though. I dont really agree personally, since I put fun above most other things. If its tedious or difficult, it should be made easier and more fun.



Well I'm not suggesting it be "automatic" per-se. I've no problem with clicking some buttons. I just see no reason for certain incredibly stupid constraints.

1) There should be absofrickinglutely no reason that I need to lock a wreck to tractor it.
2) There should be long range tractors (maybe "large" or whatever).
3) I shouldn't have to select every single wreck then tractor it then detractor it then wait for the tractor to cycle so I can tractor in a new one. Locking complicates this further.
4) Salvaging just complicated everything even further when it was already bad.

5) None of this should take any freaking slots!

To me the way loot in this game works is the biggest signal that the Dev's don't even play anymore (or they just PvP or something). I remember when I came back to EvE for the first time looting struck me as the most unprofessional amateurish seeming thing in the game and I can imagine it turns off lots of new players for no added benefit whatsoever.

There are ways to make it non automatic and not tedius if that's the real complaint those people have.


Go play WoW

KTHXBYE

Gareth Angel
Gallente
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2007.01.12 01:49:00 - [28]
 

Actually, the only thing that DID change is that cargo containers changed into wrecks and that they do not disappear after you took the loot out of em. You can even SEE which wrecks have loot in them, and which do not.

I fail to see why you say that looting became more difficult, and I can (somewhat) understand why others see your OP as being a tid bit whiny...

Flying from container to container changed to flying from wreck to wreck. Tractoring containers changed to tractoring wrecks. The added value in all this is that NOW you can even get more different components from the wrecks by salvaging them, and again I'd like to say - I you don't want to salvage, DON'T!

The system works fine, it really does.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.01.12 02:02:00 - [29]
 

We still need loot collecting drones, maybe even salvaging drones!

Gareth Angel
Gallente
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2007.01.12 02:13:00 - [30]
 

Okay, I might go for those too...

Cool


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