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Smatchimo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.12.17 23:42:00 - [1]
 

Hi,

I'm just getting into manufacturing for the first time and bought a few of my first BPO's yesterday, some rigging BPOs. I would like to do some Material Research on them while I continue salvaging parts until I have enough. However I looked around in empire and am having massive problems finding any material research labs that are not booked up for the next 20-30 days. How can I find one?

I am currently in the Caldari State War Academy corp but no one in corp chat is admitting it has any corp labs. If I were to join a real corp, there are corp research labs I could use right?

If I started a one man corp of my own what would it take to get my own personal resarch lab (preferably not too far from where I am running my first LIII missions on this guy, Suroken)? I have been in a corp and a 0.0 alliance on a previous toon and am not looking yet forward to mandatory patrols or having to say hi and bye every time I log in for a minute to train another skill etc. ;-)

Thanks!
/me

GC13
Caldari
Species 5618
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2006.12.18 00:06:00 - [2]
 

The only way to find an available public lab is to go through all of the installations in the region on the Installations tab of your Science and Industry tab (and curse whoever at CCP broke the next available time column).

For price for your own lab, you're looking at a hundred million ISK for the mobile lab (should give you three material research slots, three time efficiency, and a copying slot, plus Invention). The small caldari control tower will also be another hundred million.

That 200M ISK price tag leaves you with a defenseless single lab in 0.3 or lower space. You have to put quite a bit of effort into getting the standings for a high sec starbase. And then there's the cost of keeping the thing fueled...

Any corp-owned labs you get access to will suffer from the same standings/price restrictions of that (unless they own a 0.0 station).

Artmedis Valben
Gallente
Posted - 2006.12.18 01:00:00 - [3]
 

There are three problems causing this obsene waiting time at public labs. The shortest I can find in 10 regions is about 12-15 days.

1) 110 new BPOs were seeded on the market with Revelation.

2) EVE population has grown by 100% in the last year, and not one public lab has been added since the change to how they work with Red Moon Rising a year ago.

3) Cancelled jobs occupy slots until the job cancelled should have finished. A known bug?

The remedies are joining a corp with available POS or Outpost labs (not many of those since most corps with research labs are busy doing research on newly acquired corp BPOs)

Or purchase lab time from research corps with high sec research POSes. Several offer this service, and although not as expensive as your own POS, it still costs several hundred thousand per day of ME research.

Good luck with those rig BPOs Rolling Eyes

Smatchimo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.12.18 01:13:00 - [4]
 

Thanks for the replies! Although they are depressing. :-) Sounds like it is time for CCP to open up a bunch of new public labs!

The next available time column does work fine for me btw GC13, how is it not working for you?

Cheers

GC13
Caldari
Species 5618
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2006.12.18 01:30:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Smatchimo
The next available time column does work fine for me btw GC13, how is it not working for you?
No, it's still broken beyond all recognition in any installation with mixtures of hours/days remaining. This one right here looks like this (with the triangle being in the Next Free Time column, facing up):
Now
Now
5 days 10 hours 43 minutes
3 hours 7 minutes
2 hours 53 minutes
17 days 12 hours 34 minutes
17 days 1 hour
14 hours 12 minutes
11 days 19 minutes
11 days 19 minutes

As you can see, it's less than working. ugh

Still, it works properly so long as everything is the same in: Days or hours? and Single or double digits?

And this is sad... 0.2 system with a queue for material research ranging from 15 days 15 hours to 43 days 15 hours.

skilzrulz
Gallente
0neZeR0 Enterprises
Posted - 2006.12.18 02:07:00 - [6]
 

My suggestion is to find people to do research for you, here are a couple of people that are very good with research services:

Proton Power
Jess Ica

(In no peticular order)

Marie O'Malley
Gallente
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2006.12.18 03:47:00 - [7]
 

While buying rental research time from someone offering it is a sensible suggestion for anyone with the resources its not really useful to someone starting.

Research time for 1 days rent often costs more than the BPO itself for many folks buying "starter" T1 BPOs. On any BPO with low material requirements, with those research fees, you'd need to be making perhaps half a million runs of your researched BPO to pay for it.

I think more ME slots do need to be added. But, I'd would be nice if they were targetted at low end empire people just starting to get into BPOs. No BPO costing more than 500K, or even say 1M could be installed. And no run on those BPOs could exceed say 4 days. CCP shoudl then just tweak thier numbers so that you could start a "newb research" job at a school facility with-in two days (potentially getting any result in under a week). No one could have more than one "newb" slot in use at any time. Maybe have them just at the industry training schools location.

That would let people be industrialist newbs without the ME slot panic. Yet, for anything past short runs on starter cost T1 BPOs, you'd have to go to regular public slots. The "newb" slots would not be be in competition with player-started high-sec POS lab rentals, which are a great solution for mid & high end research. But, again, they aren't a cost effective solution for a person just starting.

Mr Printman
Caldari
J Productions
Posted - 2006.12.18 12:15:00 - [8]
 

As for "low end" BPO's, I suggest that buy BPC that has already researched. Usually you get enough runs to fulfill your needs with good price. When your production needs grows, you should start thinking of your own BPO's and how to research them. Mayby you have by then possibility use your own lab.

What comes to you rigs BPO's, take a look at what I have already researched and contact me if you find something that fits your needs. Click the J Productions link at my sig


Azrael Bierce
Epsilon Lyr
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2006.12.18 16:43:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Artmedis Valben

3) Cancelled jobs occupy slots until the job cancelled should have finished. A known bug?


not a bug. it is to prevent people from putting up long "holding" jobs to save slots for themselves.

Wyehr
Rage of Inferno
Posted - 2006.12.18 16:56:00 - [10]
 

By closing that door, it opens the one where someone renting out research slots in his PoS can, for a little cash and the right skills, cripple NPC lab research in his region.

Quutar
Ars ex Discordia
Posted - 2006.12.18 17:02:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Wyehr
By closing that door, it opens the one where someone renting out research slots in his PoS can, for a little cash and the right skills, cripple NPC lab research in his region.


that would be an expensive undertaking... since you would have to rent out for one month at a time (maybe rent out twice per slot to truly cripple it)... and then do it for 20 labs x 50 stations... and it charged by the hour... it could get pricey quickly... and could be considered harassment... maybe get the account banned.

Montaire
Krusual Developments
Posted - 2006.12.18 18:00:00 - [12]
 

Empire labs are scarce. Its intentional. Theres lots of lowsec or 0.0 labs open (I just checked)

Or set up a POS.

Or use a Research Agency.

You have choices. If you want to play on easy mode (empire) realize its going to take longer. I know your new, and lowsec / 0.0 is daunting. Take the plunge.

Wyehr
Rage of Inferno
Posted - 2006.12.18 18:06:00 - [13]
 

Yup. Between 600 million and 700 million to totally ****block material research in Verge Vendor for 30 days, depending on standing, and different regions will vary. Presumably not profitable unless there are a LOT more mobile labs out there than I'm thinking.

Then again, if your goal is to discourage NPC lab research rather than prevent it entirely, you can do it for a small fraction of that.

If anyone has tried this and has data showing either wait times or intentional NPC lab waste expenditures vs. private research business, let me know. :)

Beka Rosselin
Minmatar
Upright Citizens Brigade
Posted - 2006.12.18 20:05:00 - [14]
 

I'd love to know where all you people that say "go to lowsec, there are labs available" are. I checked 14 regions last night, and I found about 5 slots at 13-14 days, most of them were well over 25 days.

Smatchimo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.12.22 15:06:00 - [15]
 

Can anyone make any recommendations as to areas of 0.0 that have non-booked-up research labs, preferably as close to Jita / Caldari space as possible?

(OP here) I have spent plenty of time in 0.0 on my previous toon, mostly just ratting and running patrols for an alliance. I would be willing to brave the possibility of being ganked with some BPO's on me if I was sure I was headed towards an open research facility. I took a shuttle out into the closest 0.0 space but did not see any facilities listed within the region.

Cheers
/me

Aarin Wrath
Caldari
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2006.12.22 17:28:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 22/12/2006 17:30:08
Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 22/12/2006 17:29:29
Originally by: Montaire
Empire labs are scarce. Its intentional. Theres lots of lowsec or 0.0 labs open (I just checked)



Uh no there isent. Somehow I doubt you actually looked.

I just checked 3-4 regions two days ago and the best I found was a 14 day wait in a 0.2(!!) system .... not just any 0.2 system, but a 0.2 that was 5 or so jumps deep into low sec ... in a back water region ... a region with so few players that there is pratically no market! Backwater stations this deep and under used never used to have all slots full ... let alone a two week wait.

Ki Shodan
Gallente
deep blue
Posted - 2006.12.22 22:45:00 - [17]
 

Lab use will even out, as soon as the the industrialist have researched their new toys from kali.
Saying that, 10 slots, that can be used by this char aren't enough to get all the work done...
got to train my alts to do the low end research ...Shocked

Smatchimo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.01.02 23:42:00 - [18]
 

Duh...

Map (starmap) / world map control panel / services / laboratory

searchi
Posted - 2007.01.03 10:04:00 - [19]
 

ou can install bpo in busy lab slots ou just need to wait then til the first job is finished for our research to finisch
so if u find a slot which will be free after 15 das, install your bpo and research on our bpo will start after 15 das.
better than runnning araound for emt slots which u will not find.

Artmedis Valben
Gallente
Posted - 2007.01.03 12:01:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Artmedis Valben on 03/01/2007 12:06:36
When starting out, the best solution atm is to buy BPCs from a BPC provider, and if you have a few BPOs that you'd like to research, put those in to replace the BPCs eventually. Even with a 25day wait, they will be done eventually. ugh

Some of my clients have a few BPOs and use our service for all their extra needs (i.e., to diversify). You really need to mass produce for it to be worth it to invest in a large BPO collection, and it will take you many years to research a large collection. Rolling Eyes

We have spent almost a full year, researching every seeded tech 1 BPO (we still have 8 of the ships left to purchase) and we are a dedicated research corp with over 40 members (all capable of 4-10 simultaneous lab jobs). Wink

Most of our BPOs are "PERFECT PRINTS" with next to maximum ME and PE savings (many have been researched well beyond that for the purpose of negating a significant part of the inefficiency of invented tech 2 BPCs. We will have completed perfect research on the Rigs within 10 days (all 79 seeded rigs that is). We have done all 17 exploration probes, and the rest of the Revelation BPOs will be done by end of the month. Leaving only ships and capital stuff still in research. Very Happy

To set up your private POS in a one man corp, you need a large hauler, and quite a bit of capital: a medium research POS will cost about 700mil + fuel (30-50mil/month) and you need a faction standing of at least +5,10 to be able to set it up with 5 labs and concord protection. Of course you can start off smaller than that, but without the standings for a high sec POS you will have to set up defences and cannot use it to its full research potential. You also run the risk of loosing the POS if someone covets your moon, or just gets really angry at you. YARRRR!!

Contact me if you need any tech 1 BPCs to get you started. Cool

Grimreaperr
The Eternal Knights
Posted - 2007.01.03 13:27:00 - [21]
 

Empire research slots are avaialble, read my Bio for details.

Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2007.01.03 20:23:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 03/01/2007 20:23:54
There are several problems converging at once:

1. The available slots in empire stations are scarce.

2. Ignorant researchers who are researching prints beyond ME:10.

3. Lack of a "Research" contract type that can formalize the activity of giving someone your BPO for research at a POS.

4. Being unable to rent out Mobile lab slots to other people (related to 3).

5. People who hand over bpo's to POS owners leave themselves open to scamming, and this has already happened.

If CCP wants labs to be scarce thats ok, at least give players the chance to fill in the gaps in a way that is safe and supported by the game mechanic!

Erfnam
Offworld Miners and Fabricators Guild
Rising Orbit Free Trade League
Posted - 2007.01.03 23:21:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jacque Custeau
Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 03/01/2007 20:23:54
There are several problems converging at once:

1. The available slots in empire stations are scarce.

2. Ignorant researchers who are researching prints beyond ME:10.

3. Lack of a "Research" contract type that can formalize the activity of giving someone your BPO for research at a POS.

4. Being unable to rent out Mobile lab slots to other people (related to 3).

5. People who hand over bpo's to POS owners leave themselves open to scamming, and this has already happened.

If CCP wants labs to be scarce thats ok, at least give players the chance to fill in the gaps in a way that is safe and supported by the game mechanic!


1. It would be nice if every DT, the canceled jobs would be removed from the queue and everything else would be shifted to fill its spot.

2. Higher ME levels make BPCs easier to sell and more valuable (e.g. builders are clueless). If invention is ever fixed, higher ME values will help with that.

3. Collateral.

4. CCP needs to fix the mobile labs so they can be used by the general public and not just alliance members.

5. Risk vs Reward. Most research services offer collateral (including mine), but there is always a higher cost (interest) charged. To save some isk, people pass on the insurance.

EffBee Primus
Caldari
DCS Ltd
Posted - 2007.01.06 12:23:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: EffBee Primus on 06/01/2007 12:20:43
The OP has raised an issue that leads to the reason I like EvE so much.

As in real life when a lot of people want something there isn't a lot of - people have to adapt and plan and wait and look for loopholes (not exploits!).

No instant gratification.

The solution is here thinking and planning out a manufacturing career taking into account long lead times to get into a materials research lab.

There are coping strategies, but there are downsides to each strategy I have though of. This is good! One example is multiple accounts and research-trained alts to queue up loads of research. Downside here is queueing what I want in three weeks time (or queuing what I want now and waiting three weeks - depends how you look at it) Nothing much happens then suddenly it all kicks in. Repeat every two to three weeks. Downside is time and real world expense of multiple accounts.

I am a carebear at heart - I don't like PvP ship combat much. I DO like playing AROUND other people since what they do affects me. Queues in research labs are an example of a more subtle kind of PvP which I do like.

James Adams
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.01.06 14:37:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Quutar

that would be an expensive undertaking... since you would have to rent out for one month at a time (maybe rent out twice per slot to truly cripple it)... and then do it for 20 labs x 50 stations... and it charged by the hour... it could get pricey quickly... and could be considered harassment... maybe get the account banned.


This one caught my eye.... What makes you think that it would count as "harassment" - Is someone buying up all the Heavy Pulse Laser IIs harassment ? No, it's smart business. I assume you've heard the phrase that everything in EVE is PvP. If someone had the economical and time resources to do what you suggested above then I applaude him! Though it ain't gonna be my wallet taking that risk Rolling Eyes

CampyloBacter
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2007.01.06 21:27:00 - [26]
 

The research slot debacle is nearly as messed up as the whole tech 2 BPO situation. I'm not sure of a particularly strong economic or political reason for empire lab availability to be restricted, other than to keep slots under the control of the same types of cartels who control the T2 BPO base and who for eternity will keep prices artificially high.

As for much in EVE, the subtleties and finer points of the game are kept away from the newest players as if they are not worthy of being included. My naieve understanding was that research labs were public facilities, supposedly open to all. The present state of affairs has labs as commodities, open to the highest bidder. Why SHOULD I have to rent a slot from a person who doesn't own it? and why SHOULD I have to risk my ship and pod to go to Low sec regions where there aren't even that many slots available anyway?

EVE has claims to be a multi-faceted game with multiple career-paths open to a player. As I enter my third year of playing this game, my cynicism toward CCP's overall strategy continues to increase. The 'Care-bear' path, much denigrated, but nonetheless responsible for much of the economic running of the entire game, continues to be eroded in favour of the Low sec player who focuses upon only the destruction of others as his gratification. The game would be in something of a mess if the 'low-sec' mentality became the norm.

The attraction to me of this game is the freedom of choice granted to the player, alongside the complex simulation of real world economics and politics. Restricting facilities in more secure areas is the opposite to the way in which these systems work in reality. It seems to me to be a cynical attempt to 'attract' newer players to low security areas, in effect little more than suicide. The gap between the experienced player pirates and new subscribers is never going to narrow. The sooner CCP sees fit to at least double the number of Empire lab slots, the better.



ugh Flame away Pie Wats.

Viktoria Maher
Posted - 2007.01.07 23:25:00 - [27]
 

Eve certainly needs more lab slots. The introduction of warp-to-zero has reduced the risk of moving through lowsec, with the unfortunate side-effect of making more industrialists comfortable enough to risk the trip with their precious BPOs. Lowsec labs that used to have "mere" 5 day waits are all now booked for 11 to 25 days.

Considering no matter where we go the labs are booked continuously, I would support CCP doubling the amount of labs in all areas.

Thetis
Caldari
NewDawn
Posted - 2007.01.08 01:23:00 - [28]
 

CCP dont need to make more labs available.
They just need to Fix renting POS based labs.

Im sure many people would offer this service if they could. Up to around the ideal balance point of supply/demand. What would this mean; the perfect number of Lab Slots available :)

Tanis Bastar
Caldari
Interstitial Incorporated
Posted - 2007.01.08 03:35:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Thetis
CCP dont need to make more labs available.
They just need to Fix renting POS based labs.



But they need to do one or the other.

scabbsssjr
Gallente
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.01.08 03:46:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Smatchimo
Thanks for the replies! Although they are depressing. :-) Sounds like it is time for CCP to open up a bunch of new public labs!

The next available time column does work fine for me btw GC13, how is it not working for you?

Cheers


I think they are fine just the way they are. Why should ccp up the empire slots when you can go to low sec/o.o and have to wait a few days (average is 10 days for me, some are as low as 1 day)? If ccp upped them than mobile labs will be used less. CCP has given people the tools (well when they allow mobile labs to be used publicly) to do it themseleves.


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