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blankseplocked Some questions on shield recharge/resistance
 
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Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 16:57:00 - [1]
 

1) For mods that increase resistances, I think that the stacking penalty is resursively applied to (100 - modifiedResistance), so that if I start with resist 0%, and I have 2x mods that give +50%, then my final resist is 75%, add another one it is 87.5%, etc. Is that right?

2a) When using multiple shield rechargers and/or shield flux coils, do they increase the base recharge rate, or the modified shield rate when stacking?

ie, if I have 2x modules that give 50% increase in recharge rate, would my final recharge rate be:
(base+1)*2(.5) or base*1.5*1.5 ?

2b) What about the shield HP and cap recharge penalties of the above modules, do they operate on the base values or the modified values when stacking?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 17:07:00 - [2]
 

First, don't confuse "stacking" with "stacking nerf".

"Stacking nerf" refers to diminishing effectiveness for extra modules that affect same attribute.
For instance, for shields with 0% EM resists on ships without shipboard shield resists bonuses... the 1st 50% hardner actually gives you 50% resists (in other words, double damage sustainable, or exactly 50% EM resist), but the second one on same resist does NOT give you 50% extra resists (for a non-stack-nerfed 75%, or four times the damage sustained), but instead only *0.86 of that, or 43% resists, for a total of only 71.5% (EM) resist. Adding a 3rd one will give you even less, and so on.

That "*0.86" value for 2nd module is the "stacking nerf" effect.
That is applied per ATTRIBUTE of ship, not for modules, although there are SOME modules (specifically, damage controls) that do not get involved in stacking-nerf calculations, ever (same thing for ship bonuses).

The "stacking nerf" quotients are 1.00 (1st module, no penality), then (approximately) 0.86, 0.57, 0.28 and for the 5th module affecting the attribute the 0.1 modifier makes it next to useless.


Recharge times are NOT stacking nerfed (both shield and capacitor), so if you have 5 modules with -25% recharge time, you do 0.75^5=0.2373046875, or in other words -76.269% recharge time, or in other words almost *4.214 recharge rate.

Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 17:10:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Avera Mikou on 07/12/2006 17:23:06
Edited by: Avera Mikou on 07/12/2006 17:21:10
edit: ok, cool. thanks for the fast reply.

3) Oh, one more important question. The ships are listed as having a Shield HP and a shield recharge time.
Is the recharge time calculated based on an internal recharge rate, or is the recharge rate determined by the recharge time?

In other words, if I reduce my shield HP, will that cause my shield recharge TIME to decrease so that the RATE stays the same as before, or will the time stay the same, meaning that my recharge RATE has dropped.

4) Does the stacking nerf get applied to penalties as well as bonuses?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 17:27:00 - [4]
 

I suppose a hypothetical example would be best here :)

Take a base 5000 shield ship, with a base shield recharge time of 1000 seconds.

Your AVERAGE shield recharge rate if you have no skills whatsoever is 5000/1000 = 5 shield/second.
In other words, from an empty shield, you will reach 5000 shield in 1000 seconds.

Your MAXIMUM recharge rate however is 5*2.5 = 12.5 shield/second.
That recharge "rate" is obtained when your shields are at around 40% of max.
The lower or higher you get on shields (as % of max), the slower they recharge.
But the total time to recharge from 0% to 100% is still 1000 seconds.


Now, add for instance extenders to move your max shield HP from 5000 to 10000.
Your recharge TIME stays the same (1000 seconds), so you actually get always a double recharge RATE.
Or, in other words, max 25 shield/second when around 40% shield.


Now, say you have L4 shield management and L5 shield operation, and still have those hardners on.
L4 sh man gives you 20% bonus to the shield amount, so you have 12000 max shield.
L5 sheild op gives you -25% to shield recharge time, so you now have a 750 seconds recharge.

Your average recharge is 12000/750 = 16 shield/second.
Your max recharge is 16*2.5 = 40 shield/second, when shields are around 40% of max (so 60% gone).

Add now modules that are listed as "increasing recharge rate by 20%" (Shield Power Relay I).
Now, those don't actually increase the RATE of recharge by 20%, but instead DECREASE the recharge TIME by 20% (in other words, 25% increase in actual recharge rate each).

Adding one will keep same max shield, but will further decrease recharge time from 750 seconds to 750 * 0.8 = 600 seconds.
Recharge rate is 12000/600 = 20 shield/second, and MAX recharge rate 50 shield/second (see the 25% increase I mentioned).

Adding a 2nd one makes 600*0.8=480 seconds, or 25 sh/sec, or 62.5 sh/sec max.
A 3rd one means 384 sec recharge, or 31.25 sh/sec, or 78.125 sh/sec max.

And so on.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 17:41:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Avera Mikou
4) Does the stacking nerf get applied to penalties as well as bonuses?

It gets applied to an attribute.

Also, "stack nerf" order (see the values listed above, the 1.0, 0.86 and so on) are applied in order of highest-to-lowest of the modifiers. So if you have for instance one 55%, one 50% and one 30% hardner, the first stays at 55%, the 50% one gets the *0.86 stackingnerf (becoming 43%), the 30% one gets hit hardest (with the *0.57 nerf) becoming a mere 17.1% one, and so on if you have more.


The attribute itself is stacking nerfed, not the bonus or penality.

So, if you take some attribute like speed that's not stacking-nerfed, any bonuses or penalities applied to speed will NOT be stacking nerfed.
So, for instance enemy webifiers do NOT get stacking nerfed even if they give your ship (when targetted by them) a penality, not a bonus.

On the other hand, targetting range IS stacking nerfed.
So modules (like sensor boosters/amplifiers) that give targetting-range-enhancing DO get stacking nerfed, but on the other hand so do the penalities you get from other targetting-range-decreasing modules (like enemy sensor dampners, or your own warp core stabilizers).



List of attributes that are certainly stacking-nerfed:
- max targetting range
- sensor resolution
- each of the shield/armor resists
- damage mod for weapons
- rate of fire mod for weapons
- turret tracking and optimal range
- shield booster boost amount modifier


List of attributes that are NOT stacking-nerfed:
- ship speed
- cargo capacity
- shield/armor/structure hitpoints
- recharge rates for capacitor/shields
- ship agility
- powergrid and CPU output of ship


I am unsure of the other attributes of each ship, as they didn't have %age modifying modules yet to affect them. For instance, missile explosion radius, or capacitor amount, to give but two examples.

Oh, by the way, RIGS get stacking-nerfed together with modules that affect the same attribute.
That last bit is pretty important :)

Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 17:49:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Avera Mikou on 07/12/2006 17:50:49
Interesting. Good info there.

So, if I was using Shield Flux Coils...

If your ship had 5000 HP and a recharge time of 1000, your avg recharge rate is currently 5 sh/sec.

Add one module that gives 25% incr rate and -15% shield HP, and your HP becomes 4250 and recharge time becomes 750. Thus, your avg recharge
rate is now 5.67 sh/sec, which is really only a 13% increase in recharge rate.

Add a second module, and your HP becomes 4250*.85=3612.5 and your recharge time becomes 562.5, so your avg recharge time is now 6.42 sh/s.

This is increasing the rate but in a counterproductive way. If I were to instead use a Shield Recharger that has a lower rate bonus of only 15%, then after 2 modules I would have:

1000*.85^2 = 722.5 and my HP would be still 5000, so my avg rate would be 6.92 which is actually higher than using the flux coil that supposedly gives a greater increase.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:01:00 - [7]
 

Correct, for those specific module bonuses :)
And don't forget, one is a lowslot, the other a midslot module.

Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:07:00 - [8]
 

How is it handled when your resistances go > 100%? Does it cap you at 100%, or some value below 100%, or does it just go straight into the equation and cause healing instead?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:14:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 07/12/2006 18:20:18
Originally by: Avera Mikou
How is it handled when your resistances go > 100%? Does it cap you at 100%, or some value below 100%, or does it just go straight into the equation and cause healing instead?

You must have misunderstood something along the way. You don't add resists.
Final resist = 100 - ( product { [1-(resist_nr_x/100)] } )

Example: if your BASE EM resist is 90% and you add a single 50% EM hardner, you get 95% EM resist.

So, you can only reach 100% with a 100% hardner Twisted Evil
And of course, such a hardner does not exist.

But then again you can reach that 100% resists with that single non-existant 100% hardner no matter what your base resist is, if it would have existed Wink

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:27:00 - [10]
 

I here by give Akita T an honoured passive shield tankers medal. Guess I can go into semi retirement now your around.

Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:32:00 - [11]
 

The Damnation has a base explosive armor resistance of 80% and a 25% ship resistance bonus at level 5. I thought that ship bonuses were added directly to base resistance (unlike mods) which would give it a 105%...but if ship bonuses are treated just like mod bonuses then, like you say, it could never reach 100% and would in fact only be 85%.

Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:38:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Avera Mikou on 07/12/2006 19:07:21
Also, there is a skill "Explosive Shield Compensation" that gives:

"To active shield hardeners: 3% bonus per skill level to Shield Explosive resistance when the modules are not active. To passive shield hardeners: 5% bonus per skill level to Shield Explosive resistance"

However, all modules listed under "shield hardeners" are active hardeners. By passive hardeners, are they referring to "shield resistance amplifiers" and perhaps even "shield extenders" both of which give passive resist bonuses?

Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 18:48:00 - [13]
 

Oh, and also if I have a mod that gives +1000 shields and another mod that gives +10% shields, will my resulting shields be original*1.1+1000 or (original+1000)*1.1?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:07:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
I here by give Akita T an honoured passive shield tankers medal. Guess I can go into semi retirement now your around.

WinkEmbarassedLaughing

Originally by: Avera Mikou
The Damnation has a base explosive armor resistance of 80% and a 25% ship resistance bonus at level 5. I thought that ship bonuses were added directly to base resistance (unlike mods) which would give it a 105%...but if ship bonuses are treated just like mod bonuses then, like you say, it could never reach 100% and would in fact only be 85%.


Yes, ship-skill dependant bonuses get the same kind of treatment, but they're never stacking nerfed.
So, indeed, you can just think of the "Darnation" as a base 85% explosive armor resist ship.

Originally by: Avera Mikou
Also, there is a skill "Explosive Shield Compensation" that gives:
"To active shield hardeners: 3% bonus per skill level to Shield Explosive resistance when the modules are not active. To passive shield hardeners: 5% bonus per skill level to Shield Explosive resistance"
However, all modules listed under "shield hardeners" are active hardeners.
By passive hardeners, are they referring to "shield resistance amplifiers"?


A common "mistake" in all EVE item/skill descriptions is the confusing exprimation with regards to how exactly bonuses are applied, and what items or skills are actually affected.
But that's a looooong story, for another time Twisted Evil

What this skill does (and the other seven similar skills, 8 in total, 4 for each shield and armor resists) is the following:
* if you have a "passive hardner" (resistance amplifier actually), you get a "hardner" value * [1 + (0.05*level)]... so, with L5, a -37.5% T2 amplifier actually gives you -46.875% resists
* if you have an active hardner, when it's on, nothing is changed ; but when it's OFF, instead of giveing you 1% bonus as usual, it gives you Level*3% (for a max of -15% with correct L5 compensation)

Originally by: Avera Mikou
Oh, and also if I have a mod that gives +1000 shields and another mod that gives +10% shields, will my resulting shields be original*1.1+1000 or (original+1000)*1.1?


First you add all static values, then you multiply bonuses to the result.
So, you get (Original+1000)*1.1

Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:13:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Avera Mikou on 07/12/2006 19:28:15
Sorry I edited my above post under your nose. Shield extenders also give a passive bonus to resistance of 0%. Do these skills affect their passive bonus as well? So if I had a shield extender and an active hardener, both turned off, then I would have an additional 16% and 15% resist mods right? (16% not 15% because there is a base of 1% on the active hardener)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:26:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Avera Mikou
Sorry I edited my above post under your nose. Shield extenders also give a passive bonus to resistance of 1%. Do these skills affect their passive bonus as well? So if I had a shield extender and an active hardener, both turned off, then I would have an additional 2x 16% resist mods right? (16% not 15% because there is a base of 1%)


Shield extenders add +xxx HP to shield.
No bonus resistances from those, just extra HP. No stacking nerfs either.
They increase signature radius (bad, but not too bad) and take a lot of MW to fit.

Shield resistance amplifiers are those that give some resists but do not use capacitor (i.e. "passive hardners").
They get stacking nerfed if you add more.
They get better by an extra 5% (multiplicative, not additive) with compensation skills.
With L5 compensation, you get *1.25 extra effect, not a flat +25% bonus (so 37.5% becomes 46.875%, not 52.5%).
They take a bit of tf to fit, next to no MW, no penalities whatsoever.

Shield hardners are those that give 1% (3% not 4% with L1 compensation, up to 15% max with L5 compensation, not 16%) when off (all variants), and give more resists (not modified by anything), but use capacitor to stay on.
They get stacking nerfed.
T1 versions are 50% when on, T2 versions are 55% when on.
They take a bit more tf to fit as "passive hardners" (resistance amplifiers), and negligible MW. No other penalities.

For shields, there is also an active "omni" resist type of hardner, the Invulnerability Field (different versions).
It's as if you had 4 separate, smaller hardners, one for each resist.
Each of the resists it gives is stacking nerfed separately, with other hardners for same resist.


For instance, if you use a T2 invul (30% to all resists) and a T1 active EM (50% to EM resist), you actually get 30% to all resists except EM, and with EM you get the 50% from the hardner first, then a 30%*0.86 stacking nerfed EM resist from the invul.

Avera Mikou
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:48:00 - [17]
 

So you're saying that skill compensation, even though it is worded EXACTLY the same, is additive for passive and multiplicative for active? I just want to clarify that because it's very surprising.

Also, I know you just answered this, but also just to clarify...I know that shield extenders give a +xxx to shield HP, but if you look at their stats, they ALSO give +0% to all resists. Although this by itself does not do anything, it does appear to me to indicate that it would count as a passive shield booster (because most other things do not say +0%), and since passive support is additive, it seems that a shield extender should give +15% resist all with full L5 support.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2006.12.07 19:56:00 - [18]
 

Its multiplicative so what ever you do extenders give 0% to resistance.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.07 20:13:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 07/12/2006 20:18:07
Originally by: Pottsey
Its multiplicative so what ever you do extenders give 0% to resistance.


He was refering to the "3% when off per level" bonus from compensation skills for the "1% when off" hardners, I can only presume.
Probably, that should read "300% when off" bonus, it would have been accurate, and multiplicative too.

Quote:
So you're saying that skill compensation, even though it is worded EXACTLY the same, is additive for passive and multiplicative for active?
I just want to clarify that because it's very surprising.


Yes, indeed.
Or, rather, it's *3*level (or "300% per level"), so it's multiplicative, hehe.

Quote:
Also, I know you just answered this, but also just to clarify...I know that shield extenders give a +xxx to shield HP, but if you look at their stats, they ALSO give +0% to all resists. Although this by itself does not do anything, it does appear to me to indicate that it would count as a passive shield booster (because most other things do not say +0%), and since passive support is additive, it seems that a shield extender should give +15% resist all with full L5 support.


Well, as I was saying a bit before, EVE has a pretty long list of things that are either redundant, useless, confusing, missing or downright wrong in "item" descriptions, and don't get me started on how they mix and mismatch percentages with multipliers or even worse... or how things like stacking nerfs aren't properly explained anywhere, neither exceptions to those. Or how sometimes some bonuses are listed as existing "extra", but are already included in the "attributes" page (for assault frigates, for example), and so on and so forth.

I have no idea what I would have done without the test server, actually, as only after you actually "assemble" your ship and setup you can be 100% sure you're getting what you're expecting to get.
But after you start figuring out the "pattern" behind the erroneous values, and keeping in mind how they are supposed to be working, you can filter out most of the "static/noise" in the "Attributes" page

If your account is a bit older, I'd really suggest trying it out as soon as the "dust" from post-Revelation deployment settles, and play with setups there (no idea if you should bug-report or petition if something isn't as expected, at least they know it's not how it should be, but I guess they already know but it's not on the priority list).
__

More to the point, no, they don't give out any resist bonuses, not even with compensations.
In this case, the skill description is almost correct, as it only applies to the "passive and active hardners" market groups (a.k.a. "shield resistance amplifiers" and "shield hardners" market groups).

velocoraptor
Art of War
Cult of War
Posted - 2006.12.14 11:47:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Akita T



List of attributes that are NOT stacking-nerfed:

- ship agility






Are you sure about that? I heard somewhere that istabs (very nice after Kali) get the stacking nerf, too. That's pretty important I think.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.14 14:33:00 - [21]
 

As I was saying, the ATTRIBUTE is percentage-stacking-nerfed, not any of the modules themselves.
So, if ship mass or ship agility would be stacking nerfed, then all modules that affect percentage-wise any of those ship attributes would get a stacking nerf.

While mass stack-nerf-effect is easily measurable (exact ship mass appears in showinfo), the agility effect is not so easy determined, not to say almost impossible because of lag-induced errors in measurements.

* Before the 13 december patch, ship mass and ship agility were NOT stacking-nerfable.

After the 13 december patch, I am pretty sure ship agility remained non-stack-nerfed (if it would be stack-nerfed, then nanofibers would be affected too), but ship mass MIGHT be stacking-nerfable, which would mean inertia stabs get a stack-nerfable effect, but only on mass reduction.

I'd have to test it thoroughly though.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.14 14:53:00 - [22]
 

Breaking news !!!
Apparently, we CAN easily find out WHAT kind of attributes are stacking nerfed, and which ones aren't
Twisted Evil

First, you need the lastest data export.
At the moment of this post, this devblog here links to the latest Kali data export.

Now, you have to find the file called "dbo_dgmAttributeTypes.sql"
The one I have is 356 KB (364,619 bytes) long.
Open it with any text viewer.

The bad news however is that it is still not clear wether "stackable:true" means it is or it is not stacking-nerfable, as the data seems inconsistent (search for resist bonuses, ship speed and so on and so forth).
It might be that many attributes were changed from non-stack-nerfable to stack-nerfable, it might be that I'm reading something wrong, but at least it's a start.
I'll dig deeper in it this evening, test it a bit, and see what conclusions I can draw.

AtoningUnifex
Gallente
Independent Manufacturers
Posted - 2006.12.14 16:28:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Akita T

I am unsure of the other attributes of each ship, as they didn't have %age modifying modules yet to affect them. For instance, missile explosion radius, or capacitor amount, to give but two examples.



What about Power Diagnostics?
Power Diag

I will look at one of my ships that has 3 on to see if it has a stacking penalty. (next time I logon)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.14 17:05:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: AtoningUnifex
Originally by: Akita T

I am unsure of the other attributes of each ship, as they didn't have %age modifying modules yet to affect them. For instance, missile explosion radius, or capacitor amount, to give but two examples.


What about Power Diagnostics?
Power Diag
I will look at one of my ships that has 3 on to see if it has a stacking penalty. (next time I logon)


Err, I meant "capacitor amount used by modules", as there are ship bonuses and rigs that can influence some modules' cap usage. Not many, but still, for instance, the shield booster cap usage rigs.

The ship's capacitor capacity itself is not stacking nerfed.

LTcyberT1000
Caldari
Free Space Tech
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.12.14 17:09:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: LTcyberT1000 on 14/12/2006 17:10:03
Originally by: Akita T
Breaking news !!!
Apparently, we CAN easily find out WHAT kind of attributes are stacking nerfed, and which ones aren't
Twisted Evil

First, you need the lastest data export.
At the moment of this post, this devblog here links to the latest Kali data export.



Hello,

Do you have any PHP frontend to search over this SQL data after importing? Or maybe it is possible to get one on EVE site itself using that data? Smile SQL import files are almost half of gig size Shocked
Shocked

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.14 17:23:00 - [26]
 

Nope. I just do "ren *.sql *.txt", then "google" them Twisted Evil

LTcyberT1000
Caldari
Free Space Tech
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.12.14 17:55:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Nope. I just do "ren *.sql *.txt", then "google" them Twisted Evil


If you could provide some server space with MySQL and db files imported i could try to make some php scripts just for fun them Smile That would make much easer data browsing and kickstart for implementing EVE entire exported data browser frontend.

Rafein
Posted - 2006.12.14 18:21:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: velocoraptor
Originally by: Akita T



List of attributes that are NOT stacking-nerfed:

- ship agility






Are you sure about that? I heard somewhere that istabs (very nice after Kali) get the stacking nerf, too. That's pretty important I think.


Ship speed is not stacking nerfed.

Where inertia Stabs are stacking nerfed is Mass reduction, which tends to have a side effect of increasing agility and extra engines, like AB or MWD. AB/MWD are based on a ships mass, which is why 1 MN MWD's barely increase a BS's speed. Reduce the mass and you get more punch speed and accereration outta it. you also corner better.

King Tim
Posted - 2006.12.15 11:51:00 - [29]
 

this is probably a bone question, so I'll apologise in advance....

passive hardners and active hardeners, do the passive resists get nerfed and applied and the the active independtly on top of that?

so if i had a couple of passive the first would be say 30%, the second 25.8% giving 55.8% from a base resist of 0%.

Then say if i had a couple of active hardeners (lets say invun field IIs so 30% again) would i get 1.0 of the first and .86ish of the second giving me 55.8% on there own and a total of 79.21% resist with the passive applied as well or would all four hardeners be nerfed togeather giving me...???.... less?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.15 12:36:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 15/12/2006 12:38:24
Originally by: King Tim
so if i had a couple of passive the first would be say 30%, the second 25.8% giving 55.8% from a base resist of 0%.

Well, passives are a bit more than 30%, and with compensation skills even more.
But let's say you use indeed "30% passive resists modules".

Now, really, it makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE for the resists wether the module is active or passive... all that matters is the resist bonus it gives.
The only variable is for active modules, that give next to nothing when off, and a lot when on, while passives always have the same value, can not be toggled on nor off.

Now, 30% resist means "70% damage taken".
Second one is 30%*0.86, or 25.8% resists, and that means "74.2% damage taken".

You don't add the resists, you multiply the damages taken, then "re-create" the resist number.
In other words, 70%*74.2% = 51.94% damage taken -> 48.06% resist, NOT 55.8% as you seem to think.

Originally by: King Tim
Then say if i had a couple of active hardeners (lets say invun field IIs so 30% again) would i get 1.0 of the first and .86ish of the second giving me 55.8% on there own and a total of 79.21% resist with the passive applied as well or would all four hardeners be nerfed togeather giving me...???.... less?


As I was saying, it doesn't matter if it's active or passive, and each attribute is stacking-nerfed individually.
Having 2 EM hardners and 2 invulns means you have 4 resists value to sort, stacking-nerf, then apply to EM, but you only have 2 of them for each of the other resists.

Translation, EM resist won't be much bigger with or without those invulns, as most of the "final" resist comes from the EM hardners... but the three other resists will increase significantly in comparison.


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