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Doc Extropy
Gallente
Cruentus Invicta
The Covenant Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:22:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Doc Extropy on 06/12/2006 09:22:54
Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Queen Hades
What is wrong with that? People are paying CCP JUST BECAUSE (!) of the fact they can play the game THIS WAY.

If they can't do it, guess what they will do. Mad


What about those who play just to PVP or play in their chosen method? They also have every right to play as they want, surely! I'm afraid this 'omg I'd quit the game if I couldn't make easy isk anymore' argument is getting old.


I guess this applies to both sides. Now who got nerfed and who got pimped.

The Enslaver
Viziam
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:22:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: BurnHard
Hmmmm says the guy with 234 accounts all whoring research agent missions.

The OP has a good point. There is no point to high sec mission griefing apart from just being an arse. There should be a mental age threshold on jump gates.


Never heard of the old saying 'If you can't beat them, join them.', I suppose? Actually, funnily enough, most of my rnd agents are low sec. Moving my ballistic control 2 bpo through low sec was possibly one of the most... worrying things I've ever done.

Again, post with your main.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:23:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: BurnHard
The OP has a good point. There is no point to high sec mission griefing apart from just being an arse.


Here is an example

1. Mission runner enters high-sec lvl4, lets say enemies abound part 5
2. Mission runner fits out his uber officer/faction gear
3. Pirate enters high sec missions, and aggros all then warps off
4. Mission runner gets stuck with full aggo thanks to scrambling NPC's
5. Pirate comes back in to bump the mission runner should he kill the scramblers, and to "REPAIR THE NPC's!"
6. When mission runner dies - pirate picks up loot with appropriately setup alt and profit.

Jock Feegle
Amarr
Games And Theory
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:24:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Queen Hades
I AM a pvp'er. I do antipirate stuff and I really welcomed the wcs nerf, just because of that.

But this pvp is expensive and to pay for it I have to grind missions. I also wanted to grind a few missions this week to get me into a HAC finally, but this is off limits now, I don't want to lose my really precious standing to griefers.

So I'm stuck in low sec, with the occassional sub - 200k spawn and an estimated ETA of that HAC in May or June, if I don't lose any ships.

No, thanks.


We support antipirate activity... Convo or evemail me and we'll see how we can help you out!

Queen Hades
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:24:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Queen Hades
What is wrong with that? People are paying CCP JUST BECAUSE (!) of the fact they can play the game THIS WAY.

If they can't do it, guess what they will do. Mad


What about those who play just to PVP or play in their chosen method? They also have every right to play as they want, surely! I'm afraid this 'omg I'd quit the game if I couldn't make easy isk anymore' argument is getting old.


So, 70% of the playerbase are unable to play this game now anymore.

Flaming Lemming
Caldari
Puppeteer Press
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:25:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: slothe
Edited by: slothe on 06/12/2006 09:22:03

Im posting as a pirate and would like to say this.



High sec looting / griefing

We need to distinguish here.

I have no real problem with cleaner ships salvaging empty wrecks. annoying yes, griefing no.

I dont have a problem with players interfering with missions in accessible space like gates etc. annoying yes griefing no.

I dont have a problem with cleaners looting loot cans, as there is an in game remedy for this as they can be shot.

I do have a problem with players interfering with missions as the OP says, that come into a mission, shoot the rats, sometimes taking the mission abjective, and often taking a good share of bounties for doing nothing.

solution? not sure but i dont want players leaving the game over issues like this and in the last case no yarr from me to support them


QFT...(and this is from a carebear) YARRRR!!ughyarr?

(a carebear agreeing with a pirate...isn't that a sign of the apocalypse or something?)

Queen Hades
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:25:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Queen Hades on 06/12/2006 09:25:49
Originally by: Jock Feegle
Originally by: Queen Hades
I AM a pvp'er. I do antipirate stuff and I really welcomed the wcs nerf, just because of that.

But this pvp is expensive and to pay for it I have to grind missions. I also wanted to grind a few missions this week to get me into a HAC finally, but this is off limits now, I don't want to lose my really precious standing to griefers.

So I'm stuck in low sec, with the occassional sub - 200k spawn and an estimated ETA of that HAC in May or June, if I don't lose any ships.

No, thanks.


We support antipirate activity... Convo or evemail me and we'll see how we can help you out!


Thank you. Cool

Will do it as soon as I'm back from vacation.


BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:25:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: BurnHard
Hmmmm says the guy with 234 accounts all whoring research agent missions.

The OP has a good point. There is no point to high sec mission griefing apart from just being an arse. There should be a mental age threshold on jump gates.


Never heard of the old saying 'If you can't beat them, join them.', I suppose? Actually, funnily enough, most of my rnd agents are low sec. Moving my ballistic control 2 bpo through low sec was possibly one of the most... worrying things I've ever done.

Again, post with your main.


This is my main.

Levin Milraco
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:27:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Levin Milraco on 06/12/2006 09:29:45
Originally by: The Enslaver


What about those who play just to PVP or play in their chosen method? They also have every right to play as they want, surely! I'm afraid this 'omg I'd quit the game if I couldn't make easy isk anymore' argument is getting old.



Ah, yes, CCP designated a place and methods for that:

Low sec,
0.0,
Wardecs,
Can Flaging,
Sucide Ganking,
Lock-a-mole-hoping-he-fires-and-concorded,

and I am pretty sure I am missing afew of them...

now as for PVE:
Mining, (no real loss if you lose a can,)
NPC ratting, (again, no real loss.)
missioning, (if its a level 4 missions, Say goodbye to that agent for awhile... last I checked failing an lvl 4 drops standings by like 5 pts.(a storyline.))

the problem is that high sec mission griefing hurts wayyyyy too much, the risk is TOO GREAT...(regaining 5.0 standing could take MONTHS for the causal players (2 hrs a day max.)


thats the big problem I see with it...

that someone can mess with your mission to hurt you so much for so little amount of effort...

Xaildaine
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:27:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Queen Hades
What is wrong with that? People are paying CCP JUST BECAUSE (!) of the fact they can play the game THIS WAY.

If they can't do it, guess what they will do. Mad


What about those who play just to PVP or play in their chosen method? They also have every right to play as they want, surely! I'm afraid this 'omg I'd quit the game if I couldn't make easy isk anymore' argument is getting old.


Not if their choosen method is griefing other players who dont want to be griefd

You have all of 0.0 and Lowsec inwhich you can gank/grief/camp as much as you like.. you want Highsec now to?

The "Its a PvP game" argument to justify gankbear tactics and the lack of risk that they take is getting even older

The Enslaver
Viziam
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:28:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Queen Hades
So, 70% of the playerbase are unable to play this game now anymore.


If 70% of the playerbase play a PVP game to sit in high sec avoiding as many forms of PVP as possible, then EVE is really, really screwed.

Cyrus Graham
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:29:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver

What about those who play just to PVP or play in their chosen method? They also have every right to play as they want, surely! I'm afraid this 'omg I'd quit the game if I couldn't make easy isk anymore' argument is getting old.


So far two PvPers(pirates, no less)have complained that probing is too easy. Oh, and again, taking the mission loot that has no value outside of the mission and never actually engaing the mission runner in a fight is not PvP. If you want to actually fight another player, go ahead. No one reasonable is saying that you can't or shouldn't. I'm not altogether certain what your arguement is.

Queen Hades
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:30:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Levin Milraco


...

the problem is that high sec mission griefing hurts wayyyyy too much, the risk is TOO GREAT...(regaining 5.0 standing could take MONTHS for the causal players (2 hrs a day max.)


thats the big problem I see with it...



This is what makes it so attractive for them... "omg I caused serious grief I am so bad".

I always wondered if this was the driving force for griefers. Now I'm absolutely sure.

@CCP

Urgent action is required.

Jock Feegle
Amarr
Games And Theory
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:31:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
I'm afraid this 'omg I'd quit the game if I couldn't make easy isk anymore' argument is getting old.


So, griefing mission runners is not 'making easy isk' with the added 'while others do the hard work'?
I don't think you thought this through before you posted, care to elaborate?

Strength Cow
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:32:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Cyrus Graham
I remember hearing this mentioned before. Why not make using probes in empire illegal? That keeps lowsec as dangerous as ever, and highsec griefers get Concorded.


Wrong. Scan probing is a vital part of exploration, which occurs in all security systems. Its also important for war. And other things I'm sure. Turning missions into basically instance areas is not good for the game. Making it so it is impossible for people not in the mission runners gang to loot the mission critical items is all thats needed.

So what if he comes to the mission and kills "your" rats and takes "your" loot. If he trys to take loot from a ship you killed, it will flag him and you can decide to open fire or not. If he only kills npcs, thank him for helping you run the mission faster and thus getting more LP (which he CANT steal).

So, to sumerize, here is the soltion:

Make it so people who are not gang members with the mission runner cannot loot/destroy the mission critical loot. Everything else is fair game. The End. SO EASY. SO SIMPLE. NO SIDE EFFECTCS. If you disagree with this you are wrong. Period.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:32:00 - [106]
 

Personally, I think that a combination of solutions is needed.

1.Mission critical items donít drop/appear for the none mission runner. After all, they are the only one that knows what they're looking for to finish the mission (a little cheesy, but not game breaking). Therefore if the Pirate kills the "Boss", their loot appears, but the mission critical item doesn't. If the mission runner later looks at the same wreck, its there.

2.To keep in with the PvP tone of the game, make people who enter mission zones flagged in the same way as people who steal from can's. That way the runner can shoot if they wish and the pirate enjoys proper Risk vs Reward.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2006.12.06 09:33:00 - [107]
 

Two things to take into consideration here, you are supposed to be able to scan out people, whether they are doing missions, mining or hiding. On the other hand, it's not supposed to be too easy to find everyone.

TomB is looking into the scanner balancing specifically around this, let's see what his findings are.

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:34:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Queen Hades
So, 70% of the playerbase are unable to play this game now anymore.


If 70% of the playerbase play a PVP game to sit in high sec avoiding as many forms of PVP as possible, then EVE is really, really screwed.


But it's always been that way. Look at the map FFS. You are equating "PvP" with being a bum-hat which to be honest is devaluing to the term "PvP". It would be gr8 if you learned to distinguish between one and the other.

Queen Hades
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:34:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Queen Hades
So, 70% of the playerbase are unable to play this game now anymore.


If 70% of the playerbase play a PVP game to sit in high sec avoiding as many forms of PVP as possible, then EVE is really, really screwed.


There can be place for everyone. Why not leave those guys alone and do your stuff where it is not frowned upon?

Really, I don't get it... why can't you just enjoy the fact that the mission grinders fill the market of implants and CNRs with life?

You have two options:

1. You are envious. No problem - join their ranks, I can even give you a few tips.
2. You dislike their style of playing. No problem - ignore them, just ignore the fact that they exist.

I REALLY don't get it. ugh

slothe
Caldari
Jian Products Engineering Group
Atlas.
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:35:00 - [110]
 

to add to my previous comment in this thread.

Most of the people that dont seem to care about the OP's point are either pirates or players already established in this game.

I remember having to mine and do missions when i first started off in this game (as im pretty sure most pirates did). I was lucky as when i did all of this i rarely encountered ore thieves and never encountered people in my missions.

As the playerbase has expanded this has become more of a problem and i do genuinely sympathise for newer players experiencing this.

EVE is a community ffs we all rely on each other , whether we like it or not. Pirates get rare objects from mission / complex runners and their ships built by "carebears" and then take the mickey out of them. i mean wtf. christ respect each other, even if you fight each other.

I do suspect its often younger players annoying people in highsec and wonder what you can realistically do about it.

Levin Milraco
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:35:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Levin Milraco on 06/12/2006 09:38:16
Edited by: Levin Milraco on 06/12/2006 09:37:20
Originally by: Oveur
Two things to take into consideration here, you are supposed to be able to scan out people, whether they are doing missions, mining or hiding. On the other hand, it's not supposed to be too easy to find everyone.

TomB is looking into the scanner balancing specifically around this, let's see what his findings are.


I would like you to ask one question,

Sure, there should be risk or reward,

but should a player be able to make someone lose ALOT (possibly months) of standing just cause he can?...
with minimal effort. (about 5 minutes now with the scanning and jumping in to aggro everything.)



is it condoned?

Cause if the answer is yes, me and several of my friends will bring down the mission runners of Eve.

The Enslaver
Viziam
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:37:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Cyrus Graham
So far two PvPers(pirates, no less)have complained that probing is too easy. Oh, and again, taking the mission loot that has no value outside of the mission and never actually engaing the mission runner in a fight is not PvP. If you want to actually fight another player, go ahead. No one reasonable is saying that you can't or shouldn't. I'm not altogether certain what your arguement is.


High end missions should't be in high sec, anyway. I see no issue.

Levin Milraco
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:39:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Levin Milraco on 06/12/2006 09:41:38
Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Cyrus Graham
So far two PvPers(pirates, no less)have complained that probing is too easy. Oh, and again, taking the mission loot that has no value outside of the mission and never actually engaing the mission runner in a fight is not PvP. If you want to actually fight another player, go ahead. No one reasonable is saying that you can't or shouldn't. I'm not altogether certain what your arguement is.


High end missions should't be in high sec, anyway. I see no issue.


shouldnt, wounldnt, etc...

but keep in mind, that high paying/reward missions ARE already in low sec... LP, bounties, reward. already is quite abit higher than in high sec...


or is any mission in high sec gonna be seen as "high end" to you?

edit: how Low should mission in high sec you think should be?

cause right now, from the ones I done in 0.1 and 0.8, theres a big difference.

Xaildaine
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:41:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Xaildaine on 06/12/2006 09:42:09
Originally by: Oveur
Two things to take into consideration here, you are supposed to be able to scan out people, whether they are doing missions, mining or hiding. On the other hand, it's not supposed to be too easy to find everyone.

TomB is looking into the scanner balancing specifically around this, let's see what his findings are.


Its not the finding of people that is causeing the trouble.
Its the use that people are putting the new tools to.

Warp in to massive LvL 4 mission .. agro the entire Deadspace.. warp out. 1 ganked cearbear.. 1 can of T2 loot.. 1 mins work.. 0 risk.

Cyrus Graham
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:41:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Strength Cow

Wrong. Scan probing is a vital part of exploration, which occurs in all security systems. Its also important for war. And other things I'm sure. Turning missions into basically instance areas is not good for the game. Making it so it is impossible for people not in the mission runners gang to loot the mission critical items is all thats needed.


OK, cool. I was wondering about the exploration aspect. Thanks for clearing that up. Someone else already pointed out the war issue as well, but thanks for pointing that out.

Personally, I'm starting to agree with the pirates... simplest solution would be to nerf scanning. Those that really want to scan will still be able to, while those that are doing it because it's an incredibly easy way to get a kill in will find something easier. I win, the real pirates win, and exploration will be a specialized profession, so those that know how to scan well will be valuable.

Caleb Paine
State War Academy
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:41:00 - [116]
 

Per usual there's a few sides to this;

- the missionrunner who gets griefed (yes, taking the key in a high sec mission IS griefing, don't even try to tell otherwise), while he can't in any way retaliate.
- laughing bystanders
- people who will use every little excuse (PVP game, go wardec) to laugh some more and point fingers, while frantically trying to hide the fact that they're having fun ****ing missionrunners off, because they can and can get away with it (griefing, probably the first time in EVE there's actual griefing). Probaly has something to do with an insecurity problem somehow.

First 2 sides I have no problem with, the third is (per usual) just laughable.


Scanning IS stupid atm, stupidly easy, way too fast and fool proof (as in every fool can use them). Change it.



Queen Hades
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:42:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Cyrus Graham
So far two PvPers(pirates, no less)have complained that probing is too easy. Oh, and again, taking the mission loot that has no value outside of the mission and never actually engaing the mission runner in a fight is not PvP. If you want to actually fight another player, go ahead. No one reasonable is saying that you can't or shouldn't. I'm not altogether certain what your arguement is.


High end missions should't be in high sec, anyway. I see no issue.


Why is that? Just because you need more cheap cannonfodder doesn't make it right. Laughing

Once again:

High sec mission runners fill an important role in this game as well - namely paying for about 70% accounts (my estimate) and working for stuff they put on the market later. Also at some point you get them in front of your guns, if they decide to try low sec or even 0.0.

But I guess it is a waste of time trying to explain such easy thoughts.

Mesuno
Azure Horizon
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:46:00 - [118]
 

As an example from my own corp last night...

One guys spent two days probing down an exploration site that had ore far beyond what he would have expected in the system. Within two minutes of arriving he was probed down and ship killed by someone using the same probing system!

Something is way off there.

Flaming Lemming
Caldari
Puppeteer Press
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:47:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Oveur
Two things to take into consideration here, you are supposed to be able to scan out people, whether they are doing missions, mining or hiding. On the other hand, it's not supposed to be too easy to find everyone.

TomB is looking into the scanner balancing specifically around this, let's see what his findings are.


Thanks fot the reply Oveur. But, while making scanning out mission runners (if that is what the results of TomBs findings are) may make this less common, you reply doesn't say anything about the actual point of the OP, what can be done about the potential grief tactic being discusssed....grabbing the mission-specific loot in high sec while going 'Nya,nya..you can't touch me'

It's nice to see a Dev looking in on us though...makes all us carebears (and maybe even pirates) feel loved. Razz

Aelfren Blackshadow
The Knights Templar
Pure.
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:48:00 - [120]
 

Having read the entire post, and being only a part time mission runner I do think the current situation is broken.

I think with the new scanning system pirates have it far too easy, but then low - risk missions in empire have had it easy for a long time now.

Heres How I would fix the piracy (not griefing) in hi-sec missions.

1. Deadspace gates only allow certain classes of ships in. No L1 mission runner should have to fight a pirate in a BC or BS

2. Lock the Deadspace gates and give mission runners a key when they accept the mission.

3. Make the gates hackable, requireing significant skills and some time to hack 10 -20 mins naybe. This removes the disposeable alts from this part of the game.

4. Change the mission DPS to more like the 0.0 belt rats DPS much easier to tank so mission runners got a few spare slots for PvP mods.

5. Make all mission deadspace pocket 0.0 sec level (yes even the empire ones).

Now when the pirates (not griefers as they've trained for this role) do hack the gates and warp in the mission runners got a chance to either try and run or stay and fight on a more equal playing field. Much more fun for everyone.

If after these changes the pirate makes the mission incompleteable, hard luck you should have stayed to fight or called in friends to help.

Although using the current system theres nothing funnier than fitting a couple of stabs grabbing as much aggro as your tank can handle (includling some scramblers) and dragging them to the warp in point. Then warping out as soon as the pirate warps in Twisted Evil


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