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Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2006.12.06 01:13:00 - [1]
 

Sorry but aint no way I am flying to jita to place a stupid bid on an auction that is going to be up for 5 days.

I can see ur domination warp scrambler I want to buy it but sorry not goin to jita.

Why not just call it "the market" thats all it is only difference I see is I cant see the prices in other regions on the market and I can with contracts.

Was it that much of an issue to let me buy in other regions?

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2006.12.06 02:04:00 - [2]
 

I agree completley. Lost a 10mn Domination AB for 25 mill, because I was 16 jumps away and could not claim buyout. Whoever got - lucky sod!Evil or Very Mad.

We should be able to Bid/Buyout/Claim contracts from any region. Otherwise it is just like a market, little bit suped up, we can see the prices there but cant participate.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.06 02:17:00 - [3]
 

I havn't really thought about it until now, but maybe you've supplied your own answer.

If ypou'd been able to bid on that item in Jita, you'd have won it and headed to Jita to pick it up. Because you didn't bid, and therefor didn't win, you didn't go to Jita.

As most people are unwilling to live in Jita on a permanent basis, doesn't this ensure Jita isn't a one stop insta-shop for everything in game?

It's hub-busting regional markets the difficult way, but maybe thats the reasoning behind it.

Dai007
Caldari
Novatech Armada
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2006.12.06 02:22:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Dai007 on 06/12/2006 02:25:09
Being able to claim items in any region would be nice, but kinda sucky.

Maybe change the contracting skill..

Quote:
For each level of this skill the number of outstanding contracts is increased by three (up to a maximum of 15 at level 5)


Something like... "distance of being able to claim contract increased by 1 region per level. So level 5 = 5 regions"

//Edit.. or im not sure if this is already implemented i dont think so tho. Make it so you can choose how far you will allow someone to bid on it. Like buy orders...

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.12.06 02:24:00 - [5]
 

The reason why people are all going to Jita (more than before) is because of regional contracts.

Whenever CCP restricts something regionally, it results in global hubs such as Jita.

Clementina
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.06 02:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
The reason why people are all going to Jita (more than before) is because of regional contracts.

Whenever CCP restricts something regionally, it results in global hubs such as Jita.


Does it kill the regions that aren't Jita though, Like Rens, Oursalute, and Amarr?

If so, that's kinda bad.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.12.06 02:43:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Clementina
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The reason why people are all going to Jita (more than before) is because of regional contracts.

Whenever CCP restricts something regionally, it results in global hubs such as Jita.


Does it kill the regions that aren't Jita though, Like Rens, Oursalute, and Amarr?

If so, that's kinda bad.

Regional hubs will always exist, but obviously global hubs exist at their expense.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2006.12.06 03:01:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Patch86
I havn't really thought about it until now, but maybe you've supplied your own answer.

If ypou'd been able to bid on that item in Jita, you'd have won it and headed to Jita to pick it up. Because you didn't bid, and therefor didn't win, you didn't go to Jita.

As most people are unwilling to live in Jita on a permanent basis, doesn't this ensure Jita isn't a one stop insta-shop for everything in game?

It's hub-busting regional markets the difficult way, but maybe thats the reasoning behind it.


K first I didn't get anything cause the only one for sale at a "decient" price was jita. So 1. I lost cause I dont have what I want. 2. seller lost cause I didn't bid

If I can buy the crap I want in jita without living in jita isn't that a good thing? I mean if people are willing to put up with the lag to dunp their crap there on the market so be it as long as all I gotta do is jump in get what I want and get out once a month or whatever.

If I could see like the old contract system whats in all regions then np you can spread out.

If I live in devoid or say Khanid is it worth putting crap on the contract system?

Better question if your lookin for something is khanid the first region you look with the new contract system? second? last? not at all?

Personally I dont look at all.

All I see with new contract system is even more use for forums auctions unfortunately.

Its a great system look good good features just break it loose let us see all items say 100 per page and have it sortable like it is now. Say only display 100 total the top 100 for what you have chosen if thats some sort of issue.

And let us bid on anything in any region.

Cherilona
Posted - 2006.12.06 03:22:00 - [9]
 

Usually I don't post to these forums because I'm an alt. But as an alt hauler, I feel that I have some insight to impart upon you all.

Unlike you guys in player corps, people like me don't get war deced, and actually like flying afk for 50+ jumps, We can alt haul all of your stuff to Jita for a flat fee. We can even buy stuff from people in Jita and haul it to anywhere else in empire (but unfortunately, not to 0.0) for a low transactional rate. Only problems is sometimes pirates gank us for our phat lewtz.

I know what you are thinking, I shouldn't have to alt haul my stuff around for every little thing. and I actually agree with you. the game should not be constructed so that alt hauling everything everywhere is a necessity, alt hauling should only be for those special occasions when the MC declares war on your organization. Please CCP, for us overworked alts, and us grumpy mains, fix the contract system.

Nicocat
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.12.06 04:21:00 - [10]
 

Since when is Jita its own region? Go to something else in the Forge to bid on items in Jita. You already had to fly there to pick it up.

violator2k5
Poor Old Ornery nOObs
Turdz Asshatz N Grieferz
Posted - 2006.12.06 04:51:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Dai007
Edited by: Dai007 on 06/12/2006 02:25:09
Being able to claim items in any region would be nice, but kinda sucky.

Maybe change the contracting skill..

Quote:
For each level of this skill the number of outstanding contracts is increased by three (up to a maximum of 15 at level 5)


Something like... "distance of being able to claim contract increased by 1 region per level. So level 5 = 5 regions"

//Edit.. or im not sure if this is already implemented i dont think so tho. Make it so you can choose how far you will allow someone to bid on it. Like buy orders...


if they added another contract skill for that very purpose i would gladly train it. from what ive seen so far the new contract system has practically nerfed escrow trading for that very reason. i myself barely use the contracts system now and i dont think i will unless its something that i can get double my isk on ONLY then will i be bothered to waste my time traveling to another region to place a bid / buyout

Efour
Amarr
Matari Shipworks
Posted - 2006.12.06 05:11:00 - [12]
 

One day i dream of flying to Jita. Its only been 18 months ingame and still no major urges to see just how lagged it realy is.

Naro Takatsu
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.06 05:27:00 - [13]
 

At first I thought contracts were way cool. I imagined that with the scaled down system and search by region feature it will cut down on lag and evertyhing else. Also, I would have been happy to train the skills to increase the number of contracts.

Now, however, I see that the system is worthless unless you setup an actuall contract from person to person or corporation to person/corporation.

There is no ability to actually search a region and then a place a bid or buyout on a public contract/escrow, unless you are located within the region the contract is. Total waste of resorses IMO, needs to be changed so anyone in any region can place a bid and buy stuff, otherwise its just silly.

Scout Instas
Posted - 2006.12.06 05:41:00 - [14]
 

Is there a larger thread that illustrates how much this new "system" sux? I can't seem to find anything that I am looking for. In the old system it took me 5 min to find anything. Now I've got to search page after page of unnameable auctions.

Here's another example of "what were they thinking?"

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.12.06 07:38:00 - [15]
 

Nonni for all your shopping needs tbh.

Hellown
The Praxis Initiative
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2006.12.06 08:57:00 - [16]
 

its easy, make an alt on your account, send it ISK, park it in forge. Done.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2006.12.06 09:42:00 - [17]
 

We're considering a couple of things here, which are both specific to market and contracts.

- Super-regions. Some regions are simply dead, others flourish. Group them together to make super-regions. It decreases the cross-region trading enabled by obscurity. On the other hand distance is a factor and it might decrease the high margins you find, but the volume due to increased visibility might counter this (and show sellers new market more easily. This applies to both contracts and market.

- Use the market skill for the contracts like we do for market for claiming/bidding etc.

- Interbus transport. Inside Constellations you can pay extra for "instantaneous" delivery, longer than that you would be offered to create a courier contract which would have insured delivery by Interbus if a player hasn't transported it within X days (insert any kind of range and criterias here, just examples). This could diffuse the single-system hubs entirely, having them on a constellation level.

Now, these things aren't mutually exclusive or need to all to go in, you can think about combinations between these, tinker with ranges and criteria etc. but it's food for thought.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.12.06 09:46:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/12/2006 09:48:20

Oveur, whats the technical and/or other reasons for not allowing people to bid on auctions from all regions? I cant remember seeing anything about that in the forums. Smile

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2006.12.06 10:02:00 - [19]
 

Just make it possible to search contracts through all regions, not by only one. Then people will know that if they create the contract in their region, others can find it easily.

Now everyone just creates contracts in Jita because everybody is searching in The Forge and have an alt there to claim stuff.

Even global listing is not neccessary because without sorting, no one uses it anyway. Search is the only way to find interesting deals with new system...

Alitha Maru
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2006.12.06 10:03:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Oveur
We're considering a couple of things here, which are both specific to market and contracts.

- Super-regions. Some regions are simply dead, others flourish. Group them together to make super-regions. It decreases the cross-region trading enabled by obscurity. On the other hand distance is a factor and it might decrease the high margins you find, but the volume due to increased visibility might counter this (and show sellers new market more easily. This applies to both contracts and market.

- Use the market skill for the contracts like we do for market for claiming/bidding etc.

- Interbus transport. Inside Constellations you can pay extra for "instantaneous" delivery, longer than that you would be offered to create a courier contract which would have insured delivery by Interbus if a player hasn't transported it within X days (insert any kind of range and criterias here, just examples). This could diffuse the single-system hubs entirely, having them on a constellation level.

Now, these things aren't mutually exclusive or need to all to go in, you can think about combinations between these, tinker with ranges and criteria etc. but it's food for thought.


Super-regions? You mean grouping the regions themselves together, or just their markets?

In either way I think this will make EVE become smaller, and I mean that in a bad-ish way. To have regions, markets or just the place, devoid of life and activity some times add to the flavor of EVE dear Oveur. It is like going to the countryside on the weekend. You know you'll meet almost no one, or maybe a farmer and his cow. And you love it. Seriously. Diversity, be it quietness, solitude or places be dead should be part of EVE. This is what makes it dynamic. If every part of EVE is a hectic place, it would not feel quite....well....EVE anymore. The galaxy is a big place, and there are bound to be dead and devoid places. Be it traffic, commerce or both.

Want to make people use other and smaller devoid regions for trade? Make smaller regions offer something for this, and let it be dynamic. If a smaller devoid region gets full of traffic and commerce it loses this advantage as other smaller regions will now have it.

For example, contracts in such regions could be cheaper to set up maybe even free. In the big sceme of things, this is not much but maybe an incentive for some people to try and some people to follow to see what can be saved ISK-wise.

But please Oveur, for the love of all that is holy and EVE do not make super-regions. It sounds too much like super-highways and many of us remember how painful that was.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.12.06 10:08:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/12/2006 10:12:59

Zar Dim
Minmatar
Devil Human Dark Side
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2006.12.06 10:10:00 - [22]
 

Contracts are fine

You don't have to travel to Jita, to buy something via contracts. You can claim a contract from anyware in The Fore, (I assume something is lying in Jita). But you have to travel to Jita to get it. (And this remains as it was with escrow)
There are 12 Empire regions, so it's pretty fast to browse them when you look for something. Especially given the ultra cool search, plus the fact that you can use contracts not only on the stations.

So i repeat The Forge consists not only from Jita and you can bid from anyware.

Haffrage
Regeneration
Posted - 2006.12.06 10:12:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Zar Dim
Contracts are fine

You don't have to travel to Jita, to buy something via contracts. You can claim a contract from anyware in The Fore, (I assume something is lying in Jita). But you have to travel to Jita to get it. (And this remains as it was with escrow)
There are 12 Empire regions, so it's pretty fast to browse them when you look for something. Especially given the ultra cool search, plus the fact that you can use contracts not only on the stations.

So i repeat The Forge consists not only from Jita and you can bid from anyware.

You didn't use escrow too frequently, did you?

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2006.12.06 10:19:00 - [24]
 

I think the idea is EXACLTY to remove the Jita effect. This will force to create alternative markets. A very good decision by CCP.

Hillesumos
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.12.06 10:22:00 - [25]
 

Dear Fellow space lane travellers and traders,

The situation in Jita and the current concentration of people in trade hubbs to do deals is indeed worrisome. Let me start with the improvement that the contract system make: by limiting the numbers of contracts available it actually limit the number of spam and put a value on each single contract you make. Now if I use all my contracts and I make let say 1 M isks profit per contract and want to put a new one for 2M profits, I basically have to remove an old one and use it for this one. This also bring into line the whole system with other trading system.

Now the not so good point rely on the agregation of hauling contract and of corporation contract in the same pot. I used to make lot of hauling missions but nowadays it is a lot harder since hauling missions competes with profit making contracts. One solution is to remove the 15 limitation on the private contracts since thoses contracts are not seen by the whole population and does not really contribute to spam. Beside private contract force relationships b/w players which is a good thing. The corporate contract thing is a bit flawed atm since most corporations are role specialised and not so much people specialised. Ie, you will have a pure manufacturer corp and a pure pvp corp but you can't really expect people in the pvp corp to do hauling bits since most of the time they would be war decced. So the corporate inner contract thing is a great idea but need some time to settle in. I expect them to be more useful alliance wide.

Going back to the limits of slots on trading and on contracts: people buy in jita because they can find everything quickly. But also see it in the trader's perspective: i sell in Jita because it is fastest way to clear my stock. Let illustrate it with an example: I sell heavy diminishing NOS in jita and would normally make a 1M profit on it and clear them in about 3 days. Let say 3 items so this slot provide a 1M isk profit per day. I sell the same goods in a less populous system: 1.5M profit but only it take a week to clear: profit per slot per day: 0.6M isk so i am better off selling in hubb. The only way to skew the system i can see is modulate the numbers of contract/markets slots per the popularity and the security of the region: if i can put 100 different items on the market in Jita but I can put 500 different items in 0.0 then 0.0 might become a much nicer proposition. It does reflect a bit what happen in real life where to make a profit in a small shop in the middle of no where you have to be able to propose a wide selection of goods: basically single traders or small groups of them can provide the same selection of goods as many people in hubb system.

Regarding interbus transport system: with the advent of tiers 3 BS and the minerals hungry capital and titan ships: logistic is becoming more and more of an issue. The pb is that logisitic is not really fun to do and it take for ever to even get a sizeable load of minerals in 0.0 or low sec. Again forcing people to go to jita to buy ships and supply since it take some time and effort for not much profit to get them in low sec or 0.0. If there is a reasonnably fast and efficient system to move the goods around it would allow traders like me to concentrate more on providing the supply line than actually doing it. Alternatively, provide low sec or 0.0 hardened freighters to go in low or 0.0 easily with little support like having a jump drive enabled smaller freighter. (carriers are commonly used to provide supply while it should not be their role for it).

With some love and tinkering, i would be happy to provide some opportunities to make hubbs in all the regions setting aside jita.Wink

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.12.06 10:24:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Oveur

- Super-regions. Some regions are simply dead, others flourish. Group them together to make super-regions. It decreases the cross-region trading enabled by obscurity. On the other hand distance is a factor and it might decrease the high margins you find, but the volume due to increased visibility might counter this (and show sellers new market more easily. This applies to both contracts and market.


All that would really achieve is make Eve feel even smaller than it is and as you said, cripples cross region trading and kicks traders that use this as an income a royal kick in the teeth.
More convenient isn't always better.

Originally by: Oveur

- Use the market skill for the contracts like we do for market for claiming/bidding etc.


Anything that makes charisma a more useful attribute in skill training is good \o/

Originally by: Oveur

- Interbus transport. Inside Constellations you can pay extra for "instantaneous" delivery, longer than that you would be offered to create a courier contract which would have insured delivery by Interbus if a player hasn't transported it within X days (insert any kind of range and criterias here, just examples). This could diffuse the single-system hubs entirely, having them on a constellation level.


Don't want to sound rude but for the love of god NO.
Jump clones are bad enough but thankfully restrictive enough for instant transport. Being able to move ships and goods around instantly is taking this way to far.
If a player wants somthing far away they should bloody well make the effort to travel there and get it, otherwise get somthing from the local market and put up with the not as ideal cost.
Simply putting a limiter by saying there is a fee for interbus is a slippery slope simply becuase if the cost is high to restrict usage people will complain and moan and gripe until it's lowered to the point everyone just uses it.
Again, more convenient is not always better.

Originally by: Oveur

Now, these things aren't mutually exclusive or need to all to go in, you can think about combinations between these, tinker with ranges and criteria etc. but it's food for thought.

It would be better seeing more reasons to break up super hubs right now.
While they do provide a nice level of convenience for buyers (reflecting real life supermarkets) they also cause problems.
The obvious is having players bunch up in a single system to the point that it requires its own node to work and even then, still suffers from a great deal of lag.

Hermithoth
legion of qui
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.06 11:16:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Oveur

- Super-regions. Some regions are simply dead, others flourish. Group them together to make super-regions. It decreases the cross-region trading enabled by obscurity. On the other hand distance is a factor and it might decrease the high margins you find, but the volume due to increased visibility might counter this (and show sellers new market more easily. This applies to both contracts and market.


Man, you can't call it super-regions. Call it 'sectors' or something else that is classic sci-fi'ish :P

Gemini Zero
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.06 11:21:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Gemini Zero on 06/12/2006 11:22:24
Originally by: Oveur


- Use the market skill for the contracts like we do for market for claiming/bidding etc.



This is a great idea, but only if level 5 gives you the abilty to bid or buy anywhere. Just like escrow was, you were able to claim any escrow, any where, atleast if you saw it before it dropped out of the most recent batch.

I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree that the new features of contracts coupled with the accesability of escrow would make for an excellent system. That being said, what was the reasoning for restricting the range in the move from escrow to contracts?

Thanks for responding Oveur!

Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.12.06 11:44:00 - [29]
 

Well, interbus transport sounds nice, but will surely be used in 0.0 in warfare, except it doesn't work there ofc. Laughing

If your station is sieged, move your stuff out via interbus
transport. Only problem would be insurances.
If gates are camped, move stuff in and out via interbus transport like poses and pos-fuel.

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.12.06 11:56:00 - [30]
 

Agreed.

Old auction system you're trying to replace involved posting to E-O forum i.e. it was global. If the replacement doesn't provide the same global capability (only with better implementation with scam and time-waster avoidance) then it won't replace it. Period.

Regional contracts are slightly less irritating but only slightly. And as others have noted, it'll just lead to everything and everyone going to Jita because nobody wants to check half a dozen regions unless they can do it in one click (hint, see Eve-Central!). Super-regions just won't help that.


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