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blankseplocked Changing skill requirements is really Lame
 
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Attonasi
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:21:00 - [1]
 

Scenario: CCP introduces a new skill called Salvaging. They say they want it to be a profession and announce that the pre-req's required to attain this skill are Mechanic V and Survey V. So some players begin to train for these skills in anticipation of the patch and are able to get the salvage skill fairly soon after the patch.

At this point a bunch of whiners who didn't look ahead or prepare scramble to the boards to complain that they can't have these neat new skills. They have to train 2 level 5 skills zomfg! So what does CCP do? It screws the people that planned ahead and got these skills early to help a bunch of lazy whiners.

Does this sound like whining? Yes. It is a rant too. But if you were going to require mechanic 3 and survey 3 then don't post you are going to require lvl 5 in both and screw the people that actually pay attention and plan ahead.

kthnx.

Gareth Angel
Gallente
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:24:00 - [2]
 

/signed.

Although I've read this a couple of times before... Let's not get repetative.

ApophisXP
Sadistic Retribution
Sadistic Empire
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:27:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Attonasi
Scenario: CCP introduces a new skill called Salvaging. They say they want it to be a profession and announce that the pre-req's required to attain this skill are Mechanic V and Survey V. So some players begin to train for these skills in anticipation of the patch and are able to get the salvage skill fairly soon after the patch.

At this point a bunch of whiners who didn't look ahead or prepare scramble to the boards to complain that they can't have these neat new skills. They have to train 2 level 5 skills zomfg! So what does CCP do? It screws the people that planned ahead and got these skills early to help a bunch of lazy whiners.

Does this sound like whining? Yes. It is a rant too. But if you were going to require mechanic 3 and survey 3 then don't post you are going to require lvl 5 in both and screw the people that actually pay attention and plan ahead.

kthnx.



Reminds me when they did that with tractor beams. really miffed me off that did.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:30:00 - [4]
 

I don't get why ccp feels the need to dumb things down just because a few people complain about it on the forums.

Esp cuz these prereq skills are usefull on their own as well.

Then again from what i understand is that it's not just the skillreq that is a problem, the salvageble parts are too few, so i'm expecing the number of salvage parts and the number of ships that has salvage parts to increase with the upcomming patch as wel.

Bobberhead27
Gallente
Flux Infinity Inc.
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:30:00 - [5]
 

I do not understand why people think CCP are hurting anyone with the skill req change.

You trained a skill, and you are blaming CCP for it? The change does not hamper your ability to use the feauters of the skill in any way so what is the big problem?

If you are concerned about waiting all that time training the skill to level 5 and such, it really isn't that bad. You have a skill at level 5 you may use in the future and,tbh, you should not rely on what is announced before a patch.

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:31:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: ApophisXP
Reminds me when they did that with tractor beams. really miffed me off that did.
I found that hilarious, mainly because the complete lack of thought that the people buying hundreds of BPOs put into it. It wouldn't have mattered if they HAD changed it: there are more small tractor beam BPOs than players in Eve. Sorry, but you were NEVER going to sell them at 12mil a piece.

Samurai1
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:36:00 - [7]
 

Your just annoyed because you seemed to think wasting a week on a level 5 without thinking why your doing it was perfectly acceptable. It just isnt, its a mini-profession and the skills your need to really make it good are their if you wish to train them otherwise your just be a crap salvager.

Callaway
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:36:00 - [8]
 

Back to the original topic ... yeah im a bit annoyed that they dropped the survey req to 3 as well. I trained for it in anticipation of the patch and now they lower the requirements. Mabey they could put a chance to salvage bonus on the Survey skill as well for people that trained it to 5?

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:39:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Attonasi
Scenario: CCP introduces a new skill called Salvaging. They say they want it to be a profession and announce that the pre-req's required to attain this skill are Mechanic V and Survey V. So some players begin to train for these skills in anticipation of the patch and are able to get the salvage skill fairly soon after the patch.

At this point a bunch of whiners who didn't look ahead or prepare scramble to the boards to complain that they can't have these neat new skills. They have to train 2 level 5 skills zomfg! So what does CCP do? It screws the people that planned ahead and got these skills early to help a bunch of lazy whiners.

Does this sound like whining? Yes. It is a rant too. But if you were going to require mechanic 3 and survey 3 then don't post you are going to require lvl 5 in both and screw the people that actually pay attention and plan ahead.

kthnx.


I trained over 70 days for large T2 blasters and Revelations has *severely* reduced their effectiveness. 5-6 days of training is a pittance compared to what others have lost as a result of this patch.

Kye Do'lan
Gallente
Order of the Domain
The Polaris Syndicate
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:39:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Callaway
Mabey they could put a chance to salvage bonus on the Survey skill as well for people that trained it to 5?


What a good idea that would be if CCP done this for those of us who took the time out to train the skill to LV5

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:43:00 - [11]
 

I trained Survey V, and I don't think the requirements should be dropped (though I think they should be made more specialised: not Mechanic V which everyone has, but something like Science V or something even rarer).

It's a mini-profession, not a "hey, everyone do this!" experience.

Let's look at the other mini-professions:

Hacking: 3 ranks to V (Electronics Upgrades, science)
Archaelogy: 2 ranks to V (Survey, Science)
Exploration: 3 ranks to V (Astrometrics)
Salvaging: 2 ranks to V (mechanic, survey)
Gas cloud bollix: Not sure here, but I'm willing to bet it's at least 2 ranks to V.

Now THAT fits in.

Imagine it with 3 and 3. Not what you'd call a profession any more.


JimBob Moving
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Bobberhead27
I do not understand why people think CCP are hurting anyone with the skill req change.

You trained a skill, and you are blaming CCP for it? The change does not hamper your ability to use the feauters of the skill in any way so what is the big problem?

If you are concerned about waiting all that time training the skill to level 5 and such, it really isn't that bad. You have a skill at level 5 you may use in the future and,tbh, you should not rely on what is announced before a patch.


It hurts people because there is this think in Eve called a marketplace, and you can call me greedy or mean, but the salvage skill is a means to an end. If you water it down and let a bunch of lazy whiners have it then the skill is worth less.

Of course I blame CCP for it. I think it is pretty obvious why someone would expect the skill pre-req's to be at lvl 5. Only a ****** would not blame ccp for this. I am trying to figure out wth you are thinking with this statement.

Mechanic 5 is semi-useful at best. Survey 5 allows you to scan moons slighly better and use archeology which is only used in ******ed cosmos crap and a whole lot of nothing else. As for not relying on CCP announcements, I guess we should just assume they are misleading us?

Rolling Eyes

Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:44:00 - [13]
 

the salvager is a "scanner" of sorts, have the survey skill affect it if it isn't already. mechanic is always handy so no loss there.

that beeing said, I won't be loosing any sleep over the change.

( I trained survey 5 for salvaging)

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:48:00 - [14]
 

I don't neccesarily disagree with the lower skills.

See, as it stands, making a single rig from wrecks in 0.0 space, takes about 5 hours. If people want to make rigs, it needs to be at the same level of profitability as another activity with the same risk.

That will be 0.0 mining, which brings in about 60-70mil per hour with normal skills and a normal operation. That means a single low-end rig (the worst ones) will cost about 350mil. Harvesting components in hi-sec is about as profitable as mining veldspar with a Bantam in Jita if rigs are going to have to be affordable.

This is independant of what the market will do with component prices. A tech II rig would cost about as much as a capital ship. *I* don't think this is intentional.

By lowering the requirements, they are giving everyone access to the salvaging, including the 2 and 3 month old guys that are happy they got their first lvl 5 skill. For me and you Mechanic 5 and Survey 5 might look like a triviality; in fact, it *is* that since everyone and his mother trains Mechanic 5 at some point and Survey is only rank 1. This is not so for a newer player. They're still looking at Engineering, Learning skills and Electronics.

More people able to salvage means more components harvested and that means lower component prices, maybe making rigs cost under 50mil in a month or two. In short; they're moving the requirements to the manufacturing part instead of the component gathering part, just as it is with tech II. Of course the building skills required are quite low as well, which hints that rigs should be available to the whole playerbase and not the select few that have 5 billion wallets.

Of course it would have been a more elegant solution to cut the building requirements to 10% of what it is now and leave salvaging otherwise untouched. It seems, however, that CCP caters the newer player more than the old ones with Kali. After vets getting loads of love with RMR you can't really blame them. After all, the gap between a vet and a newbie is growing every second.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.12.03 11:50:00 - [15]
 

Buuhuu? Survey V is a pre-req for Archeology too, might as well expand your surveying into that real, muchos money to be made if you find the right plex Smile

Bobberhead27
Gallente
Flux Infinity Inc.
Posted - 2006.12.03 12:05:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Attonasi

It seems pretty much released now doesn't it? This is hardly a pre-patch announcement. If you change it before the patch is applied sure, but it isn't before the patch. And this had nothing to do with CCP announcing something... I just wanted to go use some useless analyzer module. Just look at what you are posting. ugh


Sure it is released now, however I assume you trained the skill to level 5 before the patch was up and running? What is so bad about that little skill that you trained to level 5? You will still be able to do salvaging.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.12.03 12:07:00 - [17]
 


It shouldnt be dropped if ccp wants to keep it something not everybody is doing.

Le Pecarosh
Posted - 2006.12.03 12:24:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux

See, as it stands, making a single rig from wrecks in 0.0 space, takes about 5 hours.


Sorry, in which 0.0 space are you living/ratting/salvaging? Shocked

My brother and I went on "salvaging spree" 2 days ago, to test it. I was quickly popping rats, he was salvaging as rats were exploding. In deep 0.0 space (good 'negative' security status - from -0.5 to -0.8), with good rats. First we killed Angels, then we moved elsewhere to pop Sanshas. Lots of "big bad rats" (1.5mil+ BSs included) too, as well as lots of frigs/destroyers/cruisers/battlecruisers.

Let's just say that in almost 5 hours of ratting/salvaging we haven't got 10% of circuits required to build 1 T1 rig.

And I didn't have intention to salvage and build rigs in order to "get rich" or anything, I just want to be able to make rigs for my PvP ships. However, as it stands now, I won't have any rigs on my ships.

Shemar
Gallente
Photesthetics
Glamour Syndicate
Posted - 2006.12.03 12:35:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Verus Potestas
I trained Survey V, and I don't think the requirements should be dropped (though I think they should be made more specialised: not Mechanic V which everyone has, but something like Science V or something even rarer).

It's a mini-profession, not a "hey, everyone do this!" experience.

Let's look at the other mini-professions:

Hacking: 3 ranks to V (Electronics Upgrades, science)
Archaelogy: 2 ranks to V (Survey, Science)
Exploration: 3 ranks to V (Astrometrics)
Salvaging: 2 ranks to V (mechanic, survey)
Gas cloud bollix: Not sure here, but I'm willing to bet it's at least 2 ranks to V.

Now THAT fits in.

Imagine it with 3 and 3. Not what you'd call a profession any more.
All these other mini-professions do not interfere with existing game mechanics. Players not interested in them can simply ignore them. Salvaging essentailly makes a mess of the very simple mechanic of looting. The lowering of the skills is aimed at appeasing all those people, myself included, that feel their preferred game style, high level solo missioning, has taken a big hit. I would be very happy with loot dropping as regular cans so I can ignore the wrecks, but the way it is now it is either salvage or not loot at all.

Now take a guess at which category of players is more numerous: Those that want to salvage and trained the skills before the patch was even implemented or those that run missions and want their looting back?

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.12.03 12:37:00 - [20]
 

I still think they should have been player dropped only Crying or Very sad

Hohenheim OfLight
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.12.03 13:09:00 - [21]
 

Bring back loot cans the wrecks are just in the way they dont pop they stay open and they just get in the way. Everythign abou them causes problems.

coolzero
Gallente
Posted - 2006.12.03 13:32:00 - [22]
 

but...wil the drop the skill req for using a salvage scanner also

since that is still survey V and mechanic V ??

Durvaul
Caldari
Eyssian Securities Agency
Posted - 2006.12.03 13:40:00 - [23]
 

/signed

This is the same thing as level 4 whiners, i.e bountys etc

PVP whiners about over powered Ravens

CCP always buckle to whiners, when the should tell them to shut up

Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2006.12.03 13:46:00 - [24]
 

They also changed the adv. learning skills so you only need the pre-req's to level 4 :/

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.12.03 13:49:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Grez
They also changed the adv. learning skills so you only need the pre-req's to level 4 :/
That makes sense.

Caine 607
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.12.03 15:10:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: Grez
They also changed the adv. learning skills so you only need the pre-req's to level 4 :/
That makes sense.


I don't agree, all those who made a conscious decision to commit to training learning skills to advanced level 4 or 5 prior to this patch should feel pretty hard done by. I'm well beyond needing an 800k SP easter egg to aid my skill progression but dropping the basic skill pre-req's has considerable training time implications.

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2006.12.03 15:18:00 - [27]
 

ever feel that the larger CCP grows the more they listen to the whiners?

Cases in point

- Drake (I agree with the changes but it was still whiners that made it happen)
- Hurricane (if you want to nerf something go to the fanfest and whine in person)
- Adv. Learning (well hell you shouldnt have to be THAT smart to use elite skills)
- Salvage ('profession' has changed in definition. Now it means 'everyone should do it')
- 'NPE' (hey where is my 800k SP worth of new player experience? I just started with 40k)
- T2 ammo (T2 isnt SUPPOSE to be powerful, its just meant as a time sink)
- WCS (I agree big time on the change but like example 1, it was brought on by whiners)
- Warp to 0 (as with RMR and drones, BM's and kali didnt make a lick of difference when the new features caused just as much lag if not more)

Heh I could go on but that would be a waste of time. Just a nice set of examples on how the words of the few, the proud, the LOUD, can affect the game for a whole LOT more people.

teh brandy
Posted - 2006.12.03 15:44:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Attonasi

They have to train 2 level 5 skills zomfg!


Originally by: Attonasi
It screws the people that planned ahead and got these skills early


so you trained two skills on level 5, zomfg!, and now need to whine whine cry whine cry cry cry ?


CCP Jiekon

Posted - 2006.12.03 15:57:00 - [29]
 

I don't think anyone of the Dev team suggested salvaging was going to become a mini profession.

Bill Shankly
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.12.03 15:58:00 - [30]
 

whinging about it is even lamer.Rolling Eyes


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