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Mar vel
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.12.02 11:02:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Chronus26
I agree that the balance between Battlecruisers and Coomand ships seriously needs work.

I think that the new Tier 2s are just that little 'too good to be true' at the moment, yes maybe they are reasonably balanced towards each other, but how about to the rest of the ship classes?

I think the Nighthawk and maybe some of the others will need to be completly 'redone' using the stats of the new Tier 2s as a base, if not sorting out the mess of overpowering that is the Tier 2 BC class.


Arrow COmmand ships have inherent bonuses to resitances that are not even remotely close to the new BC's. The Drake fits Hvy Assualt Lanchers - which have a max range of about 10km. Hardly a good comparison.

IN terms of the BC's being equalized - not really.

The Drake requires training a new missle skill; no other race requires that - which means that they have an advantage in that they are capable of using T2 weapons - where as I'm not even sure the T2 Heavy Assault Missle launcher is available yet - and even if it is, since the skills were not seeded prior to Kali, eveyone will have to train them - and specialization will take 20+ days for all 5 levels just to get to the specialization.

Due to the Drake's range limitations (10km or thereabouts) it's almost a requirement to fit a 10mn MWD - else you'll sit there why people shoot you and you fire missles into space. That means you've crippled your cap, at a minimum, and when you engage you turn your ship into a big Barn Door - great for shooting at.

Not exactly equivalent.

And - for those who are interested, I fitted up a Drake today - and basically got owned by a Myrmidon.

The Net/Net of that experience: The same I-win button applies:

ECM / NOS / DRONES 4TW.

Statics
Posted - 2006.12.02 19:38:00 - [32]
 

Could the T2 BPO holders cry anymore? So you trained for a Command Ship and aren't happy anymore, boo hoo. Everyone in Eve just got slapped in the face with the new 800k SP noobs. Get over it. Just because a ship costs 250mil doesn't mean it's worth 250mil.

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2006.12.02 19:49:00 - [33]
 

Personally I hired more then three rev newbies into a corporation and it doesn't take me three weeks to have then able to do anything. As for Command ships, that's the great different between a cruiser and a HAC or as a frig and a Assult other then the resists and a little better stats, I'm using this point even in RMR. Get over yourselves, you worked and got the t2 for that last percents better, this is the same for getting t2 guns over t1 named guns

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2006.12.02 20:10:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: The Bill
I've just done a comparison between the Drake and the Nighthawk and now I would dearly love to find out what was the point of me spending some two and a half months training for these?

With that extra medium slot and launcher (and rig slot) the Drake seems to be almost on a par but for a fraction of the skills and cost.

This is surely absurd.

Field command ships have the same number of gang mod slots as the Battlecruisers with only a slight advantage to their effectiveness.

While I agree that the nighthawk has extra resistances, with that extra medium slot this is largely negated. The additional bonus to RoF isn't much of a compensation either - a 25% increase in rate of fire on 6 launchers = 7.5 launchers, whereas the drake has 7 from the start.

So please tell me why I've spent months of training and millions of isk on the skills and ships to have whatever slender advantage they offered negated by a ship that costs maybe a fifth of the price and can be trained in about a month - maybe less with the new skill advantages of new characters?

How is this recognising that my character has invested heavily in the skills required to fly such a ship?

The argument that "now HACs and Command ships will get cheaper" just doesn't wash - the reason that this will happen is that simply - no one will see the point in flying them.

Additionally the argument that "if you can't beat them, buy a drake too" won't wash - there has to be something that players can aspire to and this seems to have been utterly swept away.

Does this remind anyone else of the time when SWG made it so every consle owning child could be a jedi in a week? (I know, I exagerate) Eve certainly picked up a lot of new players when that happened, I just hope that they put a sensible balance on things before all those players that have invested so much time and effort leave.

There are a lot of nice things in Kali, it's just they are nearly all for the player that is in a Capital ship, or only a few months old.
Resistances extra bonuses cap racharge and size powergrid and cpu boosts(dont know if the pg and cpu on a nighthawk is better then a drake)and ummm looking black and cool..Cool

Estan Drake
Cross Roads
Posted - 2006.12.04 22:28:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Estan Drake on 04/12/2006 22:30:52
Originally by: Mar vel[:arrow:
COmmand ships have inherent bonuses to resitances that are not even remotely close to the new BC's. The Drake fits Hvy Assualt Lanchers - which have a max range of about 10km. Hardly a good comparison.
IN terms of the BC's being equalized - not really.

The Drake requires training a new missle skill; no other race requires that - which means that they have an advantage in that they are capable of using T2 weapons - where as I'm not even sure the T2 Heavy Assault Missle launcher is available yet - and even if it is, since the skills were not seeded prior to Kali, eveyone will have to train them - and specialization will take 20+ days for all 5 levels just to get to the specialization.

Due to the Drake's range limitations (10km or thereabouts) it's almost a requirement to fit a 10mn MWD - else you'll sit there why people shoot you and you fire missles into space. That means you've crippled your cap, at a minimum, and when you engage you turn your ship into a big Barn Door - great for shooting at.

Not exactly equivalent.

And - for those who are interested, I fitted up a Drake today - and basically got owned by a Myrmidon.

The Net/Net of that experience: The same I-win button applies:

ECM / NOS / DRONES 4TW.



That is probably the lamest arguement I have read to date. You arn't *required* to fit a Heavy Assault missile on anything. It also gets its bonus for normal assault and Heavy launchers too. So if you use the H.Assault missiles and find them lacking, that is your own fault, try one of the others.
(by the way, their max range is just over 15km if you put your training into other missile skills than the already stated useless Heavy assault missile specialization skill.)

And you neglected to mention that unlike all the other races, You don't need to train the smaller Guns to level 5 in order to get a tech 2 of any type of missile. TO get T2 large turrets you have to train for T2 small and medium too, so don't even go there with the training times.

As for MWD use, you could always use an afterburner and some inertial stabilizers to help with your speed.. or just use the MWD.
The Drake's Sig is already large enough for cruise missiles to hit it for full damage, or torpedos if oyu are painted even by a T1 painter. you might possibly outrun most of the explosion if your velocity is high enough compared to their explosion velocity. And any sort of speed at all will make large turrets tracking on you miss a lot.
*edit* missiles don't need tracking either, so you are probably the best off fitting a MWD on the drake compared to all of the other Tech one Battlecruisers.

Captain Raynor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.04 23:36:00 - [36]
 

4.5 seconds is a Nighthawk with Command Ships 5, a 5% rof implant, and max skills in other areas.. (heavy launcher)

JenDen
Caldari
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2006.12.05 00:24:00 - [37]
 

Dont see anyone mentioing NH bonuses of missile target navigation prediction and missile precision, which make him uber frigate killer.

MuffinsRevenger
Kenny Starfighter Appreciation Club
Posted - 2006.12.05 00:52:00 - [38]
 

A nighthawk with a good fitting takes on lvl4 missions without anny form of problems

I just got in mine, and today iv'e been able to breeze through vengence (and even killing the named rat with just 700k lp in missiles...) and silience the informant without dropping below 95% shields at anny point

You simply can't do that with a drake, even with the same fittings :)
naturaly, it's kind of a investment to get the modules needed for a setup like that, but it's far from impossible and also just that, a investment

For general PvP, sure, the drake will be better due to lower price, but in the end the nighhawk is still stupidly superior and worth the training

Dra0cht
Posted - 2006.12.05 01:51:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Statics

Could the T2 BPO holders cry anymore? So you trained for a Command Ship and aren't happy anymore, boo hoo. Everyone in Eve just got slapped in the face with the new 800k SP noobs. Get over it. Just because a ship costs 250mil doesn't mean it's worth 250mil.



Laughing this man speakest the truth!
The T2 monopoly has been dealt a severe blow, rightly so, and long overdue. If you are just an ordinary joe who trained up for T2 ships, and got severly ripped off by the T2 BPO price gougers, then it really is not good for you, I accept that.

However, the changes were, and will remain, absolutely necessary. Adapt, move on, learn how to use all those uber skills you trained up for over-hyped and over-priced T2 kit, rejoice at the amount of (relatively) even competition you are now experiencing, and remember, there aint no going back Very Happy

Estan Drake
Cross Roads
Posted - 2006.12.05 02:00:00 - [40]
 

Oh yeah slapped in the face... thats why prices are... rising for nighthawks?

Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2006.12.05 04:55:00 - [41]
 

Anyone who didn't see this coming is blind. Every freaking T2 item in the game is only a small 10~15% improvement over the equivalent T1 item. It only makes sense that eventually the T2 ships were going to get chopped down to their proper place.

You guys talk about how long it takes to get the skills for these things and yet you ignore that that is EXACTLY why they needed to close the gap from T1. The entire premise of EVE is that long term training gives you lots of small bonuses here and there. This huge exception in the area of ships is just too damaging for the new player experience.

It was either stuff like this or they'd significantly lower the skill req's to get these ships. You can bet money that people would of caused even more of an uproar if the pre-reqs went down though.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.12.05 05:19:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: keepiru on 05/12/2006 05:20:00
Originally by: Sorela
Anyone who didn't see this coming is blind. Every freaking T2 item in the game is only a small 10~15% improvement over the equivalent T1 item. It only makes sense that eventually the T2 ships were going to get chopped down to their proper place.

You guys talk about how long it takes to get the skills for these things and yet you ignore that that is EXACTLY why they needed to close the gap from T1. The entire premise of EVE is that long term training gives you lots of small bonuses here and there. This huge exception in the area of ships is just too damaging for the new player experience.

It was either stuff like this or they'd significantly lower the skill req's to get these ships. You can bet money that people would of caused even more of an uproar if the pre-reqs went down though.

Nailed it on the head tbh.

One of the few wide-scale balance changes in Revelations I agree with.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.12.05 06:10:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: The Bill
I've just done a comparison between the Drake and the Nighthawk and now I would dearly love to find out what was the point of me spending some two and a half months training for these?

With that extra medium slot and launcher (and rig slot) the Drake seems to be almost on a par but for a fraction of the skills and cost.

This is surely absurd.

Field command ships have the same number of gang mod slots as the Battlecruisers with only a slight advantage to their effectiveness.

While I agree that the nighthawk has extra resistances, with that extra medium slot this is largely negated. The additional bonus to RoF isn't much of a compensation either - a 25% increase in rate of fire on 6 launchers = 7.5 launchers, whereas the drake has 7 from the start.

So please tell me why I've spent months of training and millions of isk on the skills and ships to have whatever slender advantage they offered negated by a ship that costs maybe a fifth of the price and can be trained in about a month - maybe less with the new skill advantages of new characters?

How is this recognising that my character has invested heavily in the skills required to fly such a ship?

The argument that "now HACs and Command ships will get cheaper" just doesn't wash - the reason that this will happen is that simply - no one will see the point in flying them.

Additionally the argument that "if you can't beat them, buy a drake too" won't wash - there has to be something that players can aspire to and this seems to have been utterly swept away.

Does this remind anyone else of the time when SWG made it so every consle owning child could be a jedi in a week? (I know, I exagerate) Eve certainly picked up a lot of new players when that happened, I just hope that they put a sensible balance on things before all those players that have invested so much time and effort leave.

There are a lot of nice things in Kali, it's just they are nearly all for the player that is in a Capital ship, or only a few months old.


Their for giving bonuses you douche. The field is for a simple upgrade to the BC + some gang mod capabilites. The fleet command is the real shining example,and what you should be shooting for.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2006.12.05 07:52:00 - [44]
 

Strange.. the title says about all FCS, and the topic sems to be about Caldari ones only.
Anyways I have considered Gallente BC and CS, and I think there is a kind of balance present.
However the Myrmidon can be compared to Fleet CS, not a Field one.

Let's see, Myrm got armor rep bonus, more armor, small drone bay and a bonus for drone damage/HP.
Eos got the same rep bonus, less armor but more resistances, huge drone bay with no drone bonus, which is somewhat compensated by hybrid damage bonus.

Well I don't know but it looks balanced to me, although I wouldn't say it does worth almost triple cost and training time.. but anyways I like Astarte from the look of its stats so no training is lost :)

Siobhan Ni
Gallente
Filthy Scum
Scum Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.05 08:49:00 - [45]
 

Tech 2 variants of the new tier 3 BCs would be very nice and would balance out the time and skill points players have invested in command ships. But I do agree that the new BCs are a tad over-powered.

Yossar
Minmatar
Dragon's Rage
Posted - 2006.12.05 09:29:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Sorela
Anyone who didn't see this coming is blind. Every freaking T2 item in the game is only a small 10~15% improvement over the equivalent T1 item. It only makes sense that eventually the T2 ships were going to get chopped down to their proper place.

You guys talk about how long it takes to get the skills for these things and yet you ignore that that is EXACTLY why they needed to close the gap from T1. The entire premise of EVE is that long term training gives you lots of small bonuses here and there. This huge exception in the area of ships is just too damaging for the new player experience.

It was either stuff like this or they'd significantly lower the skill req's to get these ships. You can bet money that people would of caused even more of an uproar if the pre-reqs went down though.


As long as the price goes down accordingly, I wouldn't mind that so much. Unfortunately it doesn't look like there's been much more than a correction for a pre-Kali spike.

Jaybird
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.05 10:36:00 - [47]
 

T2 Ships are expensive to fit and very skill intensive for a reason. To use them properly, you need more than just what on the skill requirment list to use them to there full potential. I fail to see all the chaos about this. T2 will continue to outshine when in the right hands. The problem isn't baseline numbers, its peopl rusihng into them who: a. Can't afford to fly them to their potential or b. Don't hae the skills to properly utilize them. Granted revelations new BC's have narrowed the gap between it, but better resists, power fitting ability, and better bonus will always add up to being superior in the right hands. If you can't fly it right, stick with a drake or something cheaper, get what you want out of it, and once you get skilled try out a Nighthawk or whatever and tell me theirs no difference.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2006.12.05 11:00:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
The REAL question is:
Can the Drake solo lvl4 missions?



L4 missions vary so much in difficulty level that this question is rather pointless. It should have no problems at all with the easier ones.

With the tougher ones (e.g. Worlds Collide), even BS with above average setups will struggle.


ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2006.12.05 11:17:00 - [49]
 

Well noone is touching anything with the Harbinger.... we love our mini geddon thanks.

see ya never get complaints about meny amarrian ships these days lol

Efour
Amarr
Matari Shipworks
Posted - 2006.12.05 11:44:00 - [50]
 

THe minigeddon with the same price tag as its big brother :O


Exogene
Posted - 2006.12.05 11:49:00 - [51]
 

And no one has thought about the fact that Command ships are based on Tier 1 Battlecruisers? Doesn't Tier 2 mean new technology? Wakey wakey...Rolling Eyes I totally disagree with the op...

Corbin Devereux
Posted - 2006.12.05 12:38:00 - [52]
 

Isn't it kind of flawed logic to compare a T2 BC to a T1 command ship in the first place? If you compare it like that sure there won't be as much of a gap. When T2 command ships come out i'm sure they'll be plenty good.

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2006.12.05 12:55:00 - [53]
 

From what a friend tells me his drake tanks Lvl 4 Angel Extravaganza faily easily. I'd say that makes it a little overpowered tbfh.

I'd expect the Commandship to do it, not a T1 BC.

Ishmael Hansen
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2006.12.05 13:24:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: JenDen
Dont see anyone mentioing NH bonuses of missile target navigation prediction and missile precision, which make him uber frigate killer.


Because those bonus were borked, and one was change to a rof bonus Wink

JenDen
Caldari
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2006.12.05 17:01:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Because those bonus were borked, and one was change to a rof bonus Wink

That's interesting, would appreciate if someone clearifies that.
Patch nottice states: "The Nighthawk’s missile explosion velocity bonus has been replaced with a missile launcher rate of fire bonus" which is good, rof gives way more dps in general than explosion velocity. But I dont see anything about the former "5% bonus to heavy missile precision per level" which is reduction of signature penalty. Does this bonus still apply?

LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.05 17:17:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: JenDen
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Because those bonus were borked, and one was change to a rof bonus Wink

That's interesting, would appreciate if someone clearifies that.
Patch nottice states: "The Nighthawk’s missile explosion velocity bonus has been replaced with a missile launcher rate of fire bonus" which is good, rof gives way more dps in general than explosion velocity. But I dont see anything about the former "5% bonus to heavy missile precision per level" which is reduction of signature penalty. Does this bonus still apply?

It did apply on monday. And it is 4tw bonus.

Shadarle
Posted - 2006.12.05 17:34:00 - [57]
 

Based on this thread I have decided that the nighthawk is a hell of a lot better than I had ever realized. I consider the drake to be insanely uber (I fly one so I'm not complaining), but now I see that the nighthawk is better in every single way. So I have to wonder why anyone who has actually done any math is complaining.

The NH out-damages & out-tanks the drake... that makes it a far better ship.

In Eve you generally pay 10 times more to get a 10% increase or even more than that... in this case you're only paying 3 times more to get a much much larger increase. The NH is well worth it and I will actually train for one now based on this thread :) I will post tanking numbers a little later so it can be shown just how much better the NH tanks.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.12.05 17:45:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 05/12/2006 17:49:29
Originally by: Shadarle
Based on this thread I have decided that the nighthawk is a hell of a lot better than I had ever realized. I consider the drake to be insanely uber (I fly one so I'm not complaining), but now I see that the nighthawk is better in every single way. So I have to wonder why anyone who has actually done any math is complaining.

The NH out-damages & out-tanks the drake... that makes it a far better ship.

In Eve you generally pay 10 times more to get a 10% increase or even more than that... in this case you're only paying 3 times more to get a much much larger increase. The NH is well worth it and I will actually train for one now based on this thread :) I will post tanking numbers a little later so it can be shown just how much better the NH tanks.


You get the "Most Sane Newcomer-to-this-thread Award".

The only drawback is the need to skill up Command Ships, actually.
Other than that, NH "wtfpwnzorz" in every possible aspect.
Heck, in most cases, NH>Raven.


Compared to the Drake, you're not only getting the equivalent of one extra launcher, you're also getting -25% to sigradius penality for heavy missile explosions (bye bye frigates or "whoa look how much damage my rage heavy does now").
And the tanky part, well, in a full passive setup, I'd sayon average about 35-45% extra DPS tanked given same -vs-damage spread for passive setup (plus, you know, you can ACTUALLY FIT your stuff, unlike the Drake that's barely holding on).

Shadarle
Posted - 2006.12.05 18:20:00 - [59]
 

Alrighty, here is the tanking comparison.

The nighthawk can tank 632.65 damage at peak recharge averaged against all 4 resists.
EM=61.19% or 266.38 max EM tank
Expl=84.48% or 665.95 max Expl tank
Kin=85.45% or 710.34 max Kin tank
Therm=88.36% or 887.93 max Therm tank

The Drake can tank 495.99 damage at peak recharge averaged against all 4 resists.
EM=58.60% or 309.19 max EM tank
Expl=83.44% or 772.96 max Expl tank
Kin=75.16% or 515.31 max Kin tank
Therm=66.88% or 386.48 max Therm tank


Thus 495.99 (drake) vs 632.65 (nighthawk) gives the nighthawk a 27.553% better tank. It does 14.x% more damage.

Multiplied that means the Nighthawk is approximate 46% better than the Drake in these two categories. I'd like to see how the OP can complain that a 46% boost isn't worth the training/cost. He better also compare the cost increase from a caracal to a cerb and the damage/tank difference as well. And also from a frig to an assault frig to show us how out of whack the Command Ships are and the nighthawk in particular is in his mind.

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.05 19:17:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
From what a friend tells me his drake tanks Lvl 4 Angel Extravaganza faily easily. I'd say that makes it a little overpowered tbfh.

I'd expect the Commandship to do it, not a T1 BC.


the Ferox didnt do all that bad in L4 angels ganza. and whats the big deal if the drake can do it. it doesnt hurt you in any way if a tech 1 ship can perform close to that of tech 2. next thing people will complain the new BCs are better then HACs as well.


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