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MrDetermination
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.08.03 15:12:00 - [241]
 

Perfect sense, thanks.

Per Bastet
Amarr
B.O.O.M
Obsidian Mining Coalition
Posted - 2007.08.03 23:05:00 - [242]
 

Halada, whats the ETA on the new Version of the guide?

Etruscus
Posted - 2007.08.05 08:56:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Gan Dalf
Originally by: Etruscus
Edited by: Etruscus on 02/07/2007 16:37:15
I got in an argument with someone yesterday about ice-mining yields. They insisted that the Hulk, "mined four more units of ice" per hour than the next best miner. This after I recommended to someone the best miner for ice is the Mack. And much to my own chagrin, I was incorrect.

Unfortunately, the guide is now out of date in that regard, and so here is an addendum to the ice mining yield sections. Most people already know this, but for the sake of being accurate, here is the data:

Ship /// yield per hour /// cycles per hour

Hulk /// 50.05703112 /// 16.68567704
Covetor /// 37.54277334 /// 12.51425778
Mack /// 45.38504155 /// 11.34626039

The Hulk is 33 percent more productive than the Covetor and the Mack is 20.8% more productive than the Covetor.

The Hulk is 10% more productive than the Mack.


Edit: I forgot to mention, this assumes using tech II lasers all level 5 skills.


Firstly great guide Halada.

What fittings/skills did you use on the Hulk to get the cycle time of approx 215secs Etrusus? I ask as my wreck has a cycle time of 287.67secs with T2 Ice Harvesters, 2x IHU 1's in the lows and maxed Exhumer skills. Are your figures based on a pair of Ingenii upgrades in the lows?


287.67 works out to be the cycle time for a covetor. The Exhumers get a .05 / level bonus.

If you (or anyone else) wants the spreadsheet and sees an error, please feel free to correct me.

I apologize for the delay in answering, I was away to Israel for a month taking a language course.

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.08.05 12:57:00 - [244]
 

I cannot say now... I just moved back to Canada and have a LOT to do at the moment, I hope I can release it this month.

Per Bastet
Amarr
B.O.O.M
Obsidian Mining Coalition
Posted - 2007.08.05 20:26:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Halada
I cannot say now... I just moved back to Canada and have a LOT to do at the moment, I hope I can release it this month.


Where in Canada, Maybe we could meet up and have a pint?

I'm in Ontario about 2 hours East of Toronto

Sgt Peppers
Posted - 2007.08.13 17:43:00 - [246]
 

This is my first non-tech support issue post and my second post all-together. Just wanted to say this is an awesome guide and it has helped me a lot! I have sent it to everyone I know to help them as well. I really hope there will be another release, perhaps with some things about gas mining and price updates.

Max Essen
Gallente
Bison Industrial Inc
Posted - 2007.08.18 10:00:00 - [247]
 

New player and mining focused.

Freekin awsome guide! My thanks.

wonton hussie
Posted - 2007.08.18 10:12:00 - [248]
 

Great work on the guide halada, has been so much use so far.
Can i ask if there is going to be a ice type map akin to the one you have for ores in section 1.1?

Zanaris
Posted - 2007.08.19 08:46:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: Zanaris on 20/08/2007 00:22:46
Edited by: Zanaris on 19/08/2007 09:03:26
Awesome guide! :D

2 Questions though, couldn't find an answer in your guide.

Cargo Capacity.
When the yield per min or 3 mins is far above the cargo capacity, do you mean that i should shift ore every 20-30 sec? Or is there another trick to this?
My Scythe has 440 cargo and i yield 433. Any upgrade from skills, implants or items would break my 60 sec transfer to jetison. From calculations in quickfit i see that this is the case with almost whatever ship you have. The higher amount of cargo a ship used for mining has, its yield is increased to match and then some.

Edit: Following section about pirates was answered to me in the channel PVE. Seems like if my items doesn't have much value, no pirate will sacrifice a ship for it. I added 3 shield extenders for almost 4k shield which should hopefully be enough if anyone wants to attack me anyways. Lets just hope concorde isnt away buying donuts Very Happy
I doubt 2x miner II, 1x named miner I, 3 shield extenders and 3 co processor I is considered THE loot to get ^^

Pirates.
I am a carebear, i suffer from paranoia and i do have bad experiences... ;)
So far ive lost only 2 ships. Once while traveling through 0.3 (podded before the warplag ended Shocked) in a cruiser. Second was in 0.5 when i was mining omber by some stupid pirate.
Right now im located in 0.8 where my corps office is. It's only me and a friend in the corp and we don't often play at the same hours - so no group mining with escort for me.

How safe is 0.8 from pirates? I find myself spending 99% in station messing with quickfit and evemoon to maximize my yield .. and defenses. Yes, i'm quite paranoid. I went to a belt in the system, another ship (Moa) came, my heart began thumping and i warped out asap. Will concorde come and help out in the belts?
I was thinking of equipping a medium smartbomb, a tracking disruptor, a warp core stabilizer, a medium vamp and a shield booster. A cap booster would be needed too, to restore the cap after turning the miners off and the other stuff on.
If the pirate uses a Warp Disruptor i am safe due to the stabilizer. If he uses a Scrambler, it will stop me from 9000 (tech II) or down to 7500 (tech I). Below 4000 my smartbomb will get sort of nasty. Since i have a tracking disruptor, the pirate must be able to shoot from 6000m or futher, otherwise within range for SB. This gives me a dangerous range between 6000m and 7500-9000. Any ideas? Not the right thread for this question, but its sort of related, and you are good at explaining things ;)

Am i just over-paranoid and should just forget about the risk of pirates? I make about 2.5mill per hour and the ships worth, items included, is about 4mill. However, i only have 1.5mill atm, so if i loose the ship first few hours, im lost Neutral

Btw, rats doesnt worry me that much. I let my cruiser tank with shields while my 5m3 drone is killing them softly. I also have a second account where the pilot has a Hoarder equiped with cargoexpanders and a miner II for that little extra yield (combined with mining foreman IV). That way i can continue to mine without interuption .. if it only weren't for those pirates (or the disillusioned fear of). Im not online 24/7, but a few days ago i saw in local that someone got fragged while mining, and it happened tonight too to a Retriever. Of course my reaction was to reinforce the door and mount up a portal autocannon right infront of it, while chewing boosters to stay awake! Crying or Very sad

Etruscus
Posted - 2007.08.20 17:42:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Zanaris
Edited by: Zanaris on 20/08/2007 00:22:46
Edited by: Zanaris on 19/08/2007 09:03:26
Awesome guide! :D

2 Questions though, couldn't find an answer in your guide.

Cargo Capacity.
When the yield per min or 3 mins is far above the cargo capacity, do you mean that i should shift ore every 20-30 sec? Or is there another trick to this?
My Scythe has 440 cargo and i yield 433. Any upgrade from skills, implants or items would break my 60 sec transfer to jetison. From calculations in quickfit i see that this is the case with almost whatever ship you have. The higher amount of cargo a ship used for mining has, its yield is increased to match and then some.


Yes, you need to move your ore as often as it takes. You are incorrect about "this is the case with almost whatever ship you have" as this is not the case with the barges. I am not certain, but I do not believe it is possible to mine 8000m3 in three minutes and even if that was the case, a rig could help that. Right now, I mine just over half that in three minutes with a 4th level gang bonus and level 5 exh skill.

As for the second portion, "pirates" aren't your real threat anyway. player pirates are. They will happily steal your ore, regardless. Drones can handle anything until you get to 0.0 NPC wise. Player pirates can not engage you in a .8, unless you try and take back ore from a can they created - in which case they will likely hold you for ransom.

Moridrex
Posted - 2007.08.21 19:45:00 - [251]
 

Edited by: Moridrex on 21/08/2007 21:00:08
Originally by: Halada
I cannot say now... I just moved back to Canada and have a LOT to do at the moment, I hope I can release it this month.


If you would like any help proofreading or such please let me know. I am a HUGE fan of your guide, and have taken much of the data and worked on some of my own spreadsheets which are unfortunately too rough for public release.

A request or perhaps something I can build and submit, I'd like to see graphs/charts demonstrating efficiency of mining gangs. Let's say someone builds a second account and trains the alt for command ship/mining link/etc...I believe I've determined this is NOT as efficient as simply running a second hulk and using the standard 10% gang bonus (you gain say 50k omber/hr on ONE hulk with the command ship, vs. 150k/200k depending on your skills for the second hulk...)...for two accts, not worth it, BUT, if you are running a gang, there will be a number of pilots where you "break even" if using a command link vs. additional hulk, and then the extra defense and such is worth it. I'll try and run the numbers later and post them.

Also looking forward to perhaps advanced mining/corp mining strategies using carriers (as support ships! not to mine!) and possible low sec/0.0 mining fleet setups with defense squads and such.

Cheers! Great guide!

Moridrex

(Edit: I realize my numbers may not make a huge amount of mathmatical sense above, as I'm just going off some rough ones from an old spreadsheet that not ALL was equal...but the point was demonstrated anyway.)

Zanaris
Posted - 2007.08.22 02:00:00 - [252]
 

Thanks Etruscus for the reply! I only checked up to retriever when comparing m3/min with cargo.

To Halada: Would it be possible if you added to the end of the guide, a summary of skills affecting your mining and the way they should be added and multiplied? I can probably figure out this myself (although i will probably miss something), but i think it can be good for new users making their first excel sheet.
Something like (nr of miners)*(mining lvl)*(astrogeology lvl)*(ship bonus)*(mining upgrades)^bonus*crystal etc! :)

PorlyP
Gallente
Revenent Defence Corperation
The Omni Federation
Posted - 2007.08.23 12:42:00 - [253]
 

Zanaris: As it goes, I'm putting together something just like that, and uses the Ore Table to work out how much isk percan you can earn.

As of yet, I've not finished it, but it's getting there :)

I thought it was the least I could do after getting into mining after seeing this guide!

Explorers Ascendant
Posted - 2007.08.24 23:38:00 - [254]
 

Edited by: Explorers Ascendant on 24/08/2007 23:38:58
Do the -20% cycle duration and the 25% ice and mining upgrades work? And I was to believe that the Mack is better for mining ice than the Hulk. Is that correct? I have had so many people saying 50 diffrent things I am very confused anyone give a definitive answer please?

Mattif2k3
Gallente
Pretty Good Piracy
Posted - 2007.08.27 07:30:00 - [255]
 

Edited by: Mattif2k3 on 27/08/2007 08:42:40
Originally by: Explorers Ascendant
Edited by: Explorers Ascendant on 24/08/2007 23:38:58
Do the -20% cycle duration and the 25% ice and mining upgrades work? And I was to believe that the Mack is better for mining ice than the Hulk. Is that correct? I have had so many people saying 50 diffrent things I am very confused anyone give a definitive answer please?
well. first: the mining upgrades for ice are working properly.

the hulk vs. macki question:
i dont know ;)

but lets see:
Originally by: Etruscus

Unfortunately, the guide is now out of date in that regard, and so here is an addendum to the ice mining yield sections. Most people already know this, but for the sake of being accurate, here is the data:

Ship /// yield per hour /// cycles per hour

Hulk /// 50.05703112 /// 16.68567704
Covetor /// 37.54277334 /// 12.51425778
Mack /// 45.38504155 /// 11.34626039


it looks like i got a calculating problem somehow. i got other numbers. lets see the skills / items:
0,75 due to Ice mining 5
0,95^2 due to 2 mining upgrades
500 sec for ice harvaster 2

hulk:
0,85 due to hulk bonus and exhumer 5
=> 500 sec * 0,75 * 0,85 * 0,95^2 = 287,67 sec
=> 3600 / 287,67 = 12,5 cycles / h
=> 12,5 cycles /h * 3 Ice / cycle = 37,5 ice / h

mackinaw:
1,25 due mackinaw malus
0,75 due to mackinaw bonus and exhumer 5
=> 500 sec * 1,25 * 0,75 * 0,75 * 0,95^2 = 317,28 sec
=> 3600 / 317,28 = 11,34 cycles / h
=> 11,34 cycles / h * 4 Ice / cycle = 45,38 Ice / h

macki is leadin. but lets see with the new 25% mining upgrades:
Hulk: 500 sec * 0,75 * 0,85 * 0,75^2 = 179,29 sec => 20,07 cycles / h => 60,23 Ice / h
Macki: 500 sec * 1,25 * 0,75 * 0,75 * 0,75^2 = 197,75 sec => 18,20 cycles / h => 72,81 Ice / h

well...it must be a misscalculation somewhere. otherwise the macki sill is the better ice miner

Etrusan
Posted - 2007.08.28 22:51:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Mattif2k3

it looks like i got a calculating problem somehow. i got other numbers. lets see the skills / items:
0,75 due to Ice mining 5
0,95^2 due to 2 mining upgrades
500 sec for ice harvaster 2

hulk:
0,85 due to hulk bonus and exhumer 5
=> 500 sec * 0,75 * 0,85 * 0,95^2 = 287,67 sec
=> 3600 / 287,67 = 12,5 cycles / h
=> 12,5 cycles /h * 3 Ice / cycle = 37,5 ice / h

mackinaw:
1,25 due mackinaw malus
0,75 due to mackinaw bonus and exhumer 5
=> 500 sec * 1,25 * 0,75 * 0,75 * 0,95^2 = 317,28 sec
=> 3600 / 317,28 = 11,34 cycles / h
=> 11,34 cycles / h * 4 Ice / cycle = 45,38 Ice / h

macki is leadin.

well...it must be a misscalculation somewhere. otherwise the macki sill is the better ice miner


Your right. You have a miscalculation. Hulk gets an additional barge bonus. So go ahead and multiply another 0,85 in your hulk equation, and you will find that you get a different value.

That said, I am fairly certain the ice bonus for the Hulk used to be .05. It is now .03 and this changes things.

With this alteration the Mack is now the better Ice miner... again, by one unit per hour.

Ship /// yield per hour /// cycles per hour

Hulk /// 44.16796864 /// 14.72265621
Covetor /// 37.54277334 /// 12.51425778
Mack /// 45.38504155 /// 11.34626039

With the uber mods, this gap increases to 2.8.

Mattif2k3
Gallente
Pretty Good Piracy
Posted - 2007.08.29 11:29:00 - [257]
 

Edited by: Mattif2k3 on 31/08/2007 07:50:31
Edited by: Mattif2k3 on 29/08/2007 11:29:18
Originally by: Etrusan

Your right. You have a miscalculation. Hulk gets an additional barge bonus. So go ahead and multiply another 0,85 in your hulk equation, and you will find that you get a different value.

That said, I am fairly certain the ice bonus for the Hulk used to be .05. It is now .03 and this changes things.

With this alteration the Mack is now the better Ice miner... again, by one unit per hour.

Ship /// yield per hour /// cycles per hour

Hulk /// 44.16796864 /// 14.72265621
Covetor /// 37.54277334 /// 12.51425778
Mack /// 45.38504155 /// 11.34626039

With the uber mods, this gap increases to 2.8.

Ok. i will have to check the bonus in the hulk describtion. i cannot look at the items at work :(

but with a maxed out gang bonus and a yeti imp the gap should be even bigger

/EDIT: is the barge bonus a hidden one?

"Mining Barge Skill Bonus: Able to equip Strip Miner and Ice Harvester turrets. 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level. 7.5% bonus to all shield resistances per level

Exhumers Skill Bonus: 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level and 3% reduction in Ice Harvester duration"

no info about the 3% ice harvesting cycle time bonus :(

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.09.03 05:34:00 - [258]
 

Now that I almost done, I can give an estimate release date about version 2.2 of the guide.

It will be approximately 65 pages and should be released no later than September 16th 2007.


Mattif2k3
Gallente
Pretty Good Piracy
Posted - 2007.09.03 11:14:00 - [259]
 

great news :)

Etrusan
Posted - 2007.09.03 20:57:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Mattif2k3

Ship /// yield per hour /// cycles per hour

Hulk /// 44.16796864 /// 14.72265621
Covetor /// 37.54277334 /// 12.51425778
Mack /// 45.38504155 /// 11.34626039

With the uber mods, this gap increases to 2.8.

Ok. i will have to check the bonus in the hulk describtion. i cannot look at the items at work :(

but with a maxed out gang bonus and a yeti imp the gap should be even bigger

/EDIT: is the barge bonus a hidden one?

"Mining Barge Skill Bonus: Able to equip Strip Miner and Ice Harvester turrets. 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level. 7.5% bonus to all shield resistances per level

Exhumers Skill Bonus: 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level and 3% reduction in Ice Harvester duration"

no info about the 3% ice harvesting cycle time bonus :(


Yes, I stand corrected. This should be the correct data in that case.

Ship /// yield per hour /// cycles per hour

Hulk /// 37.54277334 /// 12.51425778
Covetor /// 31.91135734 /// 10.63711911
Mack /// 45.38504155 /// 11.34626039

Mattif2k3
Gallente
Pretty Good Piracy
Posted - 2007.09.04 07:36:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Etrusan

Yes, I stand corrected. This should be the correct data in that case.

Ship /// yield per hour /// cycles per hour

Hulk /// 37.54277334 /// 12.51425778
Covetor /// 31.91135734 /// 10.63711911
Mack /// 45.38504155 /// 11.34626039


Ok. Great news i finally can calculate it :)

Greetz,
Mattif2k3, little math freak ;)

Enviri Nakun
Posted - 2007.09.04 08:22:00 - [262]
 

Edited by: Enviri Nakun on 04/09/2007 08:25:30
I guess a question that I've been having is that when mining in my original Frigate in .8/.7 it made sense to dump ore into a pod and come back later with my industrial since it could carry something like 8 times the load, but what about when I move up to the ore barges? Some of them can hold 4k on its own while my industrial only holds 10k. Especially when discussing 0 sec mining are you generally warping in, tanking up while stripping what you can then warping the heck back to a station?

It seems that this was never really covered in the guide as you moved on to more advanced mining techniques, the storage/transport of ore in unsafe sectors. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

Just to throw some more numbers into what I'm looking at, this would mean that basically I would warp in, pick a 'roid and fill my hold in ~4 minutes then warp back out. I guess it makes sense when dealing with nasty rats, but just want to make sure that I'm not missing something easy.

Mattif2k3
Gallente
Pretty Good Piracy
Posted - 2007.09.04 11:21:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Enviri Nakun
Edited by: Enviri Nakun on 04/09/2007 08:25:30
I guess a question that I've been having is that when mining in my original Frigate in .8/.7 it made sense to dump ore into a pod and come back later with my industrial since it could carry something like 8 times the load, but what about when I move up to the ore barges? Some of them can hold 4k on its own while my industrial only holds 10k. Especially when discussing 0 sec mining are you generally warping in, tanking up while stripping what you can then warping the heck back to a station?

It seems that this was never really covered in the guide as you moved on to more advanced mining techniques, the storage/transport of ore in unsafe sectors. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

Just to throw some more numbers into what I'm looking at, this would mean that basically I would warp in, pick a 'roid and fill my hold in ~4 minutes then warp back out. I guess it makes sense when dealing with nasty rats, but just want to make sure that I'm not missing something easy.
at first. welcome miner ;)

the mining barge question:
when u r mining, it is always usefull and more effective then u use a can. BUT there are several things to consider.
in high-sec (1.0-0.5) u got ore thiefs. this kind of species is a horror for every miner. don't wait too long. fill in 2-3 of ur hauler capacity in a can and fly the ore to the station / pos.
in low-sec (0.4-0.1) there are pirates. they r just looking for miner / misson runner to shoot them out of their ships. ALWAYS WATCH THE LOCAL and got to the station as soon as an unknown char enters the system! i personaly don't mine there. it's a to big risk.
in no-sec (0.0) u got other problems. in the most areas u got a chat channel where hostiles and pirates got reported. thus you know where a thread is and can fly to a station / pos in time. but as in 0.0 u have to WATCH THE LOCAL.
secondly the rats are BIG and dangerous. i already lost several hulks to them due my tanking skills are not very good and i was mining when i was still asleep ;) you will need another char / player to tank the rats (accept u got very good tanking skills and faction stuff fitted). but accept the rat prolem u got time. i was mining 9-10 cans and then start haul.
but its supoptimal for me. meanwhile i got 3 chars: one for tanking and mining link, one for mining and the last one for hauling.

hope this helps a bit

greetz,
mattif

General Apocalypse
Amarr
Ship Research
Posted - 2007.09.07 13:19:00 - [264]
 

Hope the new version will have the Roqual in it Very Happy

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2007.09.08 11:40:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: General Apocalypse
Hope the new version will have the Roqual in it Very Happy


Sure it will not be included as far as it isn't mining ship, can't equip any miners/strips/harvesters and can only use drones which is just unprofitable comparing to any small barge.

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.09.09 23:40:00 - [266]
 

The Rorqual will be fully covered over three pages with screenshots and explanations of its modules and strenghts/weaknesses.

Battle Shortswitch
Multiverse Corporation
Cosmic Anomalies
Posted - 2007.09.10 01:36:00 - [267]
 

Halada,

Will the new guide cover the effects on the 'beancounter' H__ implants? I recently experimented with them and noted that the calculations simply did not add up (yield mutator of 1% was having nearly half the expected impact on yield in my tests).

It may also be useful to include a refining yield table that covers 32% (apparently the base yield of stations in 0.0 space).

Thanks, and congratulations on your excellent guide.

Battle

Kale Palodo
Posted - 2007.09.12 09:59:00 - [268]
 

I have a couple refine formula questions. I have read the decimals are dropped when the refine is calculated. I am writing up a little program for me to use so I want to get the formulas right. Does this look correct for the refine formula?

total ore amount/amount for prefect refine=total amount of refines
yield% * perfect yield = total minerals with decimal place dropped
(100%-tax%) * total minerals = total minerals after tax with decimal dropped
total minerals-*total amount of refines

The station tax is figured as 5-([standing]*0.75). How many decimal places does the tax go?

Thanks
Kale

moschka
Caldari
Secret Squirrel Readiness Group
Posted - 2007.09.12 17:44:00 - [269]
 

I have read ur "Bibel" 6 months ago and start working on skill for it.
One thing i dont really understand is, if i dont want a BC to mine along with a hulk or more,what is best hulkskill to get then?
Lets say 2 hulks in a gang, what skill and/or inplants and mods can i use to get most of it?

Why? Because i have a rokh, and 1 hulk, and to emty cargo on rokh all the time, even with cargorigs on it, its boringugh, soo, i figured i could use 2 hulks insted, maxed with cargo rigs, using no hauler, just 2 hulks.

Anyone feel free to answer , please.Laughing


Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.09.12 22:49:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Thaibog
I have to say this is a very impressive and complete guide to mining. Great Job Halada.


Nice sig m8. But incase you would like to know the flag is being displayed backwards. But then the media always get stuff backwards and out of shape lol. Anyways. When you look at the flag in a d****d fashion like it is the stars should always be on the upper left corner. A side from that one flaw. That is a pretty good sig! Cool


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