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blankseplocked [Trinity] The Complete Miner's Guide - version 2.2 [PDF, 64 pages]
 
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Etruscus
Posted - 2007.07.04 15:55:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Pilk

Person B disagrees with person A->person B is wrong->person B lives in mother's basement

You can't seriously be equating the two progressions, can you?


Well, to be honest, you came out of the door flaming away. You disagree with two points, points I might add which are extremely marginal at best and affect an extremely small portion of the entire mining community, and you go on how his original draft had errors.

That said, his guide is largely written for the solo miner. At least, that is how I read it. I think you have a viable argument for using a carrier as a mining platform in the squadron support roll only. I don't think Halada has said anywhere in his guide that he prefers a command ship over a carrier for that roll. In an earlier post, you mentioned how the carrier was filling that roll while others were in Hulks. You did not make the claim that everyone in this gang was in a carrier nor did you claim that everyone should have been in a carrier. To add to this, I would go so far to say as it makes good sense to use the carrier for the squadron support roll in 0.0 space.

But, in secured space solo mining with an alt or two or a wingman?

If you want to create an argument and refute some portion of the dialog then there must be context for that argument, otherwise the argument makes no sense.

As far as mining drones, sure your mathematically correct that if you mine the 15km roids and drone the ones closer than 3.5K you will most likely be more efficient than the T2 counterparts. But, this will require the miner to move their ship fairly often. Maybe Halada's guide needs an addendum here to account for those who have the dedication to meticulously watch their lasers, move their ship and generally not take many breaks. If I was to watch my mining lasers that closely for several hours straight every day, well, I wouldn't. Maybe I'm lazy, but I dare say most people do not have that kind of dedication. They watch youtube videos, movies, listen to music, talk on the phone, etc. Moreover, not watching your lasers every second means you are bound to occasionally lose drones. Am I doing it wrong? Sure. Do I care? Not really.

The only way to tell if Halada is correct or you are correct would be take random samplings of people with T2 and harvesters and compile a rigorous statistical analysis to see who is more productive.

Ok, now all of that said. It's just a guide. Meaning it just guides you. Presumably people will work out their own nitches and their own methods of doing things. It's not a rule book. No one is going to care, other then your pocketbook and sanity, if you maximize efficiency or not. So long as the facts are straight and it is not editorial than so what. Yes, I will grant you he does make some editorial comments that should probably removed, or at least notify the reader when he is being editorial, but the vast majority of the time his guide is fact filled.

Take your carrier quibble. That is a highly specialized role in an extremely advanced ship that most people (those who are in the market for guides) will not pilot for years to come, especially if they are focusing on industry skills. Is it worthy of mention in the guide? Sure. Probably in the section that talks about gang bonuses and such. Otherwise, well, not so much.


Aleise Miradi
Posted - 2007.07.04 18:49:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Etruscus
Originally by: Aleise Miradi
Tell if I m wrong, but with the new mining upgrades (x 1,25), a god mode Hulk could go up to 9 980 m3 per 3 min?... That s great.... yeah... but a god mode Apoc could in theory pull out some 16 377 m3 per 3 min!!! Shocked (with 8 MDCMII and 6 mining upgrades)

I didn t make the maths to see if the cpu will still be ok, and you have a very nasty problem with your cargobay in the BS, but it would be a hard hit for every exhumer pilot ... ergo .. exhumers need more low slots Twisted Evil


I guess I don't understand what it is your getting at. MLU gives a 5% bonus, not 25%. Secondly, MDCMII's are used for deep core mining merx (hence why they are called modulated deep core miners). The MDCMII's cycle every three minutes, while miner two's cycle every minute. Hence, miner II's mine 150% more efficiently than MDCMIIs and they don't require expensive crystals.

But, if your post is snark then have fun with it =)


there are new MLU in game and the best one is:
* Aoede Mining Upgrade - 25% bonus, 6% cpu penalty

Crystals are not expensive, but that s not the question here. Even if you use Miners II, with a BS you should still get some 14 038 m3 per 3 minutes and thats nearly 4 000 m3 more per cycle then with a maxed hulk...

Etruscus
Posted - 2007.07.04 20:16:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Aleise Miradi
Originally by: Etruscus
Originally by: Aleise Miradi
Tell if I m wrong, but with the new mining upgrades (x 1,25), a god mode Hulk could go up to 9 980 m3 per 3 min?... That s great.... yeah... but a god mode Apoc could in theory pull out some 16 377 m3 per 3 min!!! Shocked (with 8 MDCMII and 6 mining upgrades)

I didn t make the maths to see if the cpu will still be ok, and you have a very nasty problem with your cargobay in the BS, but it would be a hard hit for every exhumer pilot ... ergo .. exhumers need more low slots Twisted Evil


I guess I don't understand what it is your getting at. MLU gives a 5% bonus, not 25%. Secondly, MDCMII's are used for deep core mining merx (hence why they are called modulated deep core miners). The MDCMII's cycle every three minutes, while miner two's cycle every minute. Hence, miner II's mine 150% more efficiently than MDCMIIs and they don't require expensive crystals.

But, if your post is snark then have fun with it =)


there are new MLU in game and the best one is:
* Aoede Mining Upgrade - 25% bonus, 6% cpu penalty

Crystals are not expensive, but that s not the question here. Even if you use Miners II, with a BS you should still get some 14 038 m3 per 3 minutes and thats nearly 4 000 m3 more per cycle then with a maxed hulk...


year your right. That's interesting. I only see one of the second best ones on contract at the moment though, for a brisk 750M.

Etruscus
Posted - 2007.07.05 00:16:00 - [184]
 

OK, to put this drone argument to bed once and for all.

Let's say we want to know the point, regardless of cost, at which T2 drones start to become more efficient. How would we do that? Well, when their respective production functions are equal to each other, we can assume that T2's start to become more efficient. For those who do not wish to read the following mathematical proof, that range is exactly 3750 and does not account for acceleration time.

The following assumes skill 5 in the relevant areas.

The production function for a drone is the amount harvested multiplied by the quantity [ 3600 / (60X + 2X{D/t})]

3600 is the number of seconds in an hour, X is the number of trips per hour, D is the distance traveled and T is the speed at which the drone travels. We desire to know D and know T for both equations, so we set both of these equations equal to each other.

62.5* [ 3600 / (60X + 2X{D/500})] = 75*[ 3600 / (60X + 2X{D/250})]

And we move everything around and we get the following relationship:

3375000+450D = 4050000 +270D

180D = 675000 or D = 3750. Feel free to check it.

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.05 02:27:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Etruscus
*stuff I don't have room to quote*

A very well-thought-out post. I could take issue with a couple of your characterizations, but I'll let them slide in the interest of improving the guide rather than rehashing arguments.

Frankly, the entire point of all this, originally, was that carriers are viable gang-support and mining platforms for 0.0 and low-sec mining operations. If anything, my argument has been somewhat weakened by recent changes, most notably the drop in price of Hulks--time was, the argument was even more absurd, because you actually lost MORE isk from losing a Hulk than from losing a carrier. Ah, for the pre-invention silliness!

At any rate, a carrier/mothership is, bar none, the best gang-link platform you can possibly bring to bear on an unsuspecting bunch of rocks floating in space. If we can depart from both sides--the "noob-pwning" and "mom's basement" bull**** (Halada), and the "ill-informed" accusations (hi, mom!)--long enough to agree or disagree on that, I think that'd be a good spot to continue from, no?

--P

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.05 02:32:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Etruscus
OK, to put this drone argument to bed once and for all.

Let's say we want to know the point, regardless of cost, at which T2 drones start to become more efficient. How would we do that? Well, when their respective production functions are equal to each other, we can assume that T2's start to become more efficient. For those who do not wish to read the following mathematical proof, that range is exactly 3750 and does not account for acceleration time.

The following assumes skill 5 in the relevant areas.

The production function for a drone is the amount harvested multiplied by the quantity [ 3600 / (60X + 2X{D/t})]

3600 is the number of seconds in an hour, X is the number of trips per hour, D is the distance traveled and T is the speed at which the drone travels. We desire to know D and know T for both equations, so we set both of these equations equal to each other.

62.5* [ 3600 / (60X + 2X{D/500})] = 75*[ 3600 / (60X + 2X{D/250})]

And we move everything around and we get the following relationship:

3375000+450D = 4050000 +270D

180D = 675000 or D = 3750. Feel free to check it.

That may have been the most-painful way I have ever seen to work that out. Seriously. Ow. I mean, kudos and all, but... ow.

Oh, and you forgot to take the Drone Navigation skill and ore size into account.

--P

Drellik Tune
Posted - 2007.07.05 15:10:00 - [187]
 

First off, Halada, I would like to say very nice guide! I especially enjoyed the comparisons of ore and prices..

I have pretty much been on my own in this game for the better part of a year since the blokes that joined with me have moved on, so some of the acronyms you use, I still have trouble with.

For instance, on page 48, you have a covetor/retriever mining setup. In the low slot, thre is a item called a PDU2. The closest thing I can find is Power Diagnostic System II. Is this what the item should be?

Again, thanks for the guide.. VERY Helpful! Very Happy

Skystar
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.07.05 23:57:00 - [188]
 

Welcome back mate Very Happy ... if you need help with some details, you know where to find me

And to all criticasters ... shut up or make your own guide instead of trashing a usefull guide for people who want to get into mining

/me cheers for Halada

Inani Breuneeri
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2007.07.06 11:51:00 - [189]
 

First of all... Welcome back.

Being new to this game wasn't easy, but your guide made it alot easier for me. Needless to say, i'm ectatic that my favorite mining guide will continue to recieve updates.

Thanks for all your hard work, I really appreciate it.


Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.07.07 11:43:00 - [190]
 

@Etruscus - Thank you for adding yet another mathematical proof. The guide explained in words what you just calculated, but it seems people need proofs in number (that they probably cannot even understand) to convince them. With your permission I will add it to the drone's section to avoid other debates in the likes our little friend started.

@Skystar - I love you mate Very Happy

@Drellik Tune - Once, Power Diagnostic System were called Power Diagnostic Unit. Although the name changed, the acronym remained over time. So yes, a PDU2 is the module you mentionned !

Thanks to everyone else for your warm welcome, and the numerous eve-mails as well.. it feels good to be back :)

Suncats Shadow
Caldari
PuttieTat Lab Rats
Posted - 2007.07.08 18:14:00 - [191]
 

ughCoolVery Happy

Major congrats on the update. I had a bunch of copies of the older one and now I can have a great shinny new PDF version.

I am reading it over now, just to check out all the new updates, changes, etc. Being one of those that paid the 450mil for a Hulk back in the (we are over charging you because we can) days; and I have been happy with is since.

@Drellik Tune, send me an eve mail or chat me up in game. We are always looking for new corpies and myself and several others are always getting together for MMO's

Again, grats on another assume guild and welcome back.
*cheers*

Free Thinker
Posted - 2007.07.08 21:54:00 - [192]
 

I'm a little confused about the Mammoth cargohold calculation. Halada said the Mammoth can fit 16,686 m3 of stuff with 4 expanded cargohold I and 4 GSC's. But these are my calculations:

5625 * 1.175 * 1.175 * 1.175 * 1.175 = 10,721 m3

So you cannot even fit 4 GSC's in there. The best you can do is 3 GSC's, giving another 2700 m3 of space. Can someone explain please?

Gan Dalf
EUROPEANS
Posted - 2007.07.09 13:43:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Etruscus
Edited by: Etruscus on 02/07/2007 16:37:15
I got in an argument with someone yesterday about ice-mining yields. They insisted that the Hulk, "mined four more units of ice" per hour than the next best miner. This after I recommended to someone the best miner for ice is the Mack. And much to my own chagrin, I was incorrect.

Unfortunately, the guide is now out of date in that regard, and so here is an addendum to the ice mining yield sections. Most people already know this, but for the sake of being accurate, here is the data:

Ship /// yield per hour /// cycles per hour

Hulk /// 50.05703112 /// 16.68567704
Covetor /// 37.54277334 /// 12.51425778
Mack /// 45.38504155 /// 11.34626039

The Hulk is 33 percent more productive than the Covetor and the Mack is 20.8% more productive than the Covetor.

The Hulk is 10% more productive than the Mack.


Edit: I forgot to mention, this assumes using tech II lasers all level 5 skills.


Firstly great guide Halada.

What fittings/skills did you use on the Hulk to get the cycle time of approx 215secs Etrusus? I ask as my wreck has a cycle time of 287.67secs with T2 Ice Harvesters, 2x IHU 1's in the lows and maxed Exhumer skills. Are your figures based on a pair of Ingenii upgrades in the lows?

trirok
Posted - 2007.07.10 01:22:00 - [194]
 

In response to your "capital ships get out mined by a retriever" comment, I present you this:

http://www.battleclinic.com/forum/index.php/topic,11189.new.html#new

A wyvern with three drone mining rigs (2 T2, 1 T1), mining mindlink implant, gang mod (with squad present) could theoretically out-mine a hulk (disregarding travel time). A waste of money imo, yes, but also rather funny.


cerona
Sublime.
Posted - 2007.07.10 11:55:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Free Thinker
I'm a little confused about the Mammoth cargohold calculation. Halada said the Mammoth can fit 16,686 m3 of stuff with 4 expanded cargohold I and 4 GSC's. But these are my calculations:

5625 * 1.175 * 1.175 * 1.175 * 1.175 = 10,721 m3

So you cannot even fit 4 GSC's in there. The best you can do is 3 GSC's, giving another 2700 m3 of space. Can someone explain please?


I think you forgot the 20% bonus for being @ Minimatar Industrial 4, which should bring the cargohold up to 12,866 m3. Though I could be mistaken on that.

Bowling Green
Posted - 2007.07.10 15:35:00 - [196]
 

Gan Dalf, I am also interested in which mines ice better ... the Hulk or the Mack. Hopefully Etruscus will reply.

Elementatia
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.07.10 15:57:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Halada
Edited by: Halada on 03/07/2007 16:22:59
COMING SOON


So the whole T20 story put to rest, my anger aside, my finals are over... time to go back to EVE.

/quote

Welcome Back Halada ! It´s great that you join us again !

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.07.10 18:23:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: trirok
In response to your "capital ships get out mined by a retriever" comment, I present you this:

http://www.battleclinic.com/forum/index.php/topic,11189.new.html#new

A wyvern with three drone mining rigs (2 T2, 1 T1), mining mindlink implant, gang mod (with squad present) could theoretically out-mine a hulk (disregarding travel time). A waste of money imo, yes, but also rather funny.




Isn't a Wyvern a mothership?

As for the Hulk I think the Hulk is still the better miner for Ice with the new bonus but I'll see on that

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.11 09:29:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: trirok
In response to your "capital ships get out mined by a retriever" comment, I present you this:

http://www.battleclinic.com/forum/index.php/topic,11189.new.html#new

A wyvern with three drone mining rigs (2 T2, 1 T1), mining mindlink implant, gang mod (with squad present) could theoretically out-mine a hulk (disregarding travel time). A waste of money imo, yes, but also rather funny.

I already did those numbers way back here.

Halada is content to "pwn noobs" who dare to challenge her about capital-ship mining. Meanwhile, I'm content to mine nearly about as much as a Covetor, with about 150x as many hitpoints and literally infinite* more ability to defend Hulks mining alongside me, should enemies appear. But, apparently, that makes me a "little friend".

--P

*: Since a BC running a tank and a command link probably doesn't have enough slots and fittings left over to be truly combat-capable at all, and certainly can't fit capital remote reps like a carrier can.

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.07.11 13:45:00 - [200]
 

lol thanks for the laugh mate Laughing

Mattif2k3
Gallente
Pretty Good Piracy
Posted - 2007.07.11 14:14:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Mattif2k3 on 11/07/2007 14:16:30
Edited by: Mattif2k3 on 11/07/2007 14:16:04
i just got one question 4 u, halada: when will the next version be reday? Very Happy

and welcome back ugh

/edit: which new bonus at the hulk Question i hate to be at work Crying or Very sad

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.07.11 15:56:00 - [202]
 

First, thank you all for the numerous welcome back eve mails I received, it's touching, and it's so nice to be back, I'm reminded of why I did that guide on the first place already :)

The new version will see the light when it's done, quite simply. To make sure I can respect my word, I'd say definitely before Christmas 2007 Wink

As for the Hulks bonus, it how has a bonus to ice mining, which was silently added and not applicable when 2.0.1 was written. There are more details a few posts north of here ! ugh

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.07.11 15:57:00 - [203]
 

@Pilk - When I wrote that guide, the first draft, it was simply ideas I had in my mind that I put into a Word document for myself. Then I thought well, why not make it more comprehensible and share it since it's already all typed out. After all, when I started playing almost two years ago, the community was smaller, and I remember how the guys on the help channel, New Citizen Q&A, and Eve University were so helpful. Not only was EVE an awesome spacesim, but the people were genuinely nice. It was clear EVE was aimed at a much mature audience than say WoW. At 19 I was one of the youngest of my corp (STK Scientific). And this is the main inspiration that pushed me to do it - to give back what others had given me.

It didn't take long before the game grew more and more popular. At the time 20K player at once seemed an impossible thought. But the more popular it got, the more idiots there were. The forums started getting flooded with "First!" posts, insults, ridiculous flame wars. I never was a big forum warrior, but every time I came here it seemed there were more immature pestilence ruining it for everyone. It looked like a plague... so I mostly still stay away from the forums today.

Just before the whole T20 incident erupted, that was about 2 months after I started medschool, it was clear I would not have the time to play anymore, so I finished the second version I had started. It took me more than 100 hours, but I hate letting unfinished things go, and I thought, it will help many. The whole T20 incident disgusted me to my very core, I had already lost all interest in the game after ASCN dissolved. I thought people like SirMolle and his flaming goons were so pathetic it truly and deeply saddened me. So I posted the guide and left.

In-between medschool starting getting harder and harder. I worked 40 hours a week as a freelancer webmaster to pay rent, tuition and everything else, on top of that I had hospital rotations and lectures, and all the studying. Something I discovered about people (in this case dealing with patients) in those long hours of learning to become a doctor, is that there will always be that obnoxious ******* or that obnoxious *****, being impolite, rude and uncooperative with nurses and doctors. They think we owe them everything, they think their status as a patient makes them a king or a queen. We all wish we could send them back home, because they are so hated and annoying, not just to the staff, but the other patients around, ruining the atmosphere with their bad mood and manners... but alas we must deal with them nonetheless.

You, sir, remind me of those rare exceptions where patients come in and we wish they never had come. You came here, in a thread about a long piece of literature that I wrote for the community, to give back what I received in the past, ridiculing and insulting a part of my guide because you disagreed with it. You came here with no regards for the long hours of work behind it, thinking you knew better and that it gave you the right to say what you wanted, even if it meant insulting me. You came in even thinking I owed explanations to some of my sentences.

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.07.11 15:58:00 - [204]
 

Edited by: Halada on 11/07/2007 15:58:01
(continued...)

In all my life, I have learned that 95% of the people who act like this are people who have no idea what the meaning of the word sacrifice or compromise is. Could you have said what you said differently, in a respectful manner, and have transmitted the same message? Yes you could have. Do you even know there is a way to say things that retain their meaning, but remain respectful? The reason I compared you to someone still living in his mother’s basement at 25 years old is because I think those people are losers. They are lazy and unthankful people thinking we owe them the World. They have never given an effort for someone else without hoping for something in return. Your attitude reminded me exactly of that, or like those patients we something receive and that we all hate.

Why do I even take the time to write all that? Because I seriously think people should be told clearly what is wrong. Some understand only the “STFU” language, but there is still a tiny ray of hope within me that believes human beings are capable of understanding their mistakes if they are shown their incorrect ways. I came back after a six months break from EVE, just after I finished writing my finals, thinking yeah, I’ll have a few hours per week to relax now and enjoy that great game with its great community again. Then I read your post … the MINUTE I read it you lost all my respect, if only by your attitude and your words.

I think you are a prime example of that is wrong with this game at the moment, and even in the World today. Hypocrites and egocentric people who hover with their ego over what they think is the World, when in fact they hover over their pathetic little persona. It is so frustrating when I work 20 hours shift, and I do my very best to make a patient comfortable, and they will still find a way to ***** about something. The same for you Pilk – there is a fine line between suggesting ameliorations, or criticizing something, and insulting and ridiculing to make your point. And you crossed it, without probably noticing it. Which is the whole point of this long rant.

I already spend enough energy dealing with people like you at the hospital, I do not wish to do the same when I come to play EVE, which is something I want to do to enjoy myself, relax and have fun. But as always, there is always a pestilence somewhere that tries to ruin it. If you want to hate me, ridicule or insult me, then please go ahead, but somewhere else. Not in my guide’s thread. Not here. Is that too much to ask? I hope not.


Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.11 20:29:00 - [205]
 

The issue is, having read your guide, you struck me as the same sort of person you now characterize me as. Such passages as,

"Nobody (by that I mean sane people) will ever convince me or anyone else that a carrier is a good mining platform."

and another comment, since removed, about how you "pwned a newbie" or somesuch when he dared to actually follow your suggestion:

"a well constructed post, which (sic) hard, proved (sic) and accurate mathematical facts, which is the only way to compare yields and efficiency in terms of ISK/hour."

which is blatantly contrary to your earlier statement that you are unwilling to change your mind, anyway.

Really, the entire capital mining section is littered with,

"stupid"
"for Christ’s sake"
"but I hope you die"
"you do not have permission to speak to me ever again."
"Nobody (by that I mean sane people)"
"people weren’t reasonable"
"only thinking about their e-peen"
"you will keep living in your little e-peen world and eventually suffer the consequences"

Basically, you take a needlessly hostile tack against those wishing to use capital ships to mine.

I don't think anybody is trying to use a carrier to solo-mine. But you keep referencing using it as a tank, you even reference using it as a gang link platform. But instead of mining with it (and keep in mind you're the one (rightly) arguing for the purchase of 200-million-isk 5% mining amount implants on the theory that you should squeeze out every last drop of efficiency), you want it to have fighters deployed? Indeed, you suggest delegating fighters to Hulks. Please honor my word as a longtime carrier pilot that that tactic will accomplish nothing against 90% of the opponents you will face in 0.0. Even if you choose not to do so, surely there's no point in sitting there with fighters out, making no isk (and, if we are to believe your statements about the inevitability of losing drones, actually losing isk by losing fighters every so often), when you could have been making isk with that character.

The issue, at its heart, was started by your needlessly-hostile attitude towards those who were suggesting that mining in capital ships may be appropriate. To your credit, you removed the most-egregious such statement (the "pwned noob"), but when I wrote my response, it was still in the guide. Let's reset to zero and see if we can't have an honest, reasonable discussion about the best way to improve your guide's capital-mining section, rather than one about our individual motivations and shortcomings.

I screwed up, and assumed bad faith based on the best data I had at the time. I'm sorry. Can we move on now to the part where we build a comprehensive and complete guide to mining, including the capital aspects? I'd very much like to work with you to do just that.

--P

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.07.11 20:38:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Halada on 11/07/2007 20:38:49
Using a carrier as a mining platform becomes a personal choice at the end, I illustrated my opinion since this is my own guide. This opinion was backed up with facts, and it was written after I received 104 eve-mails asking me what I thought about using a carrier. Now how, but what I thought. So I obliged provided a section about it. The facts are still true - you could have interpreted them yourself.

The whole point of this thread Pilk is to make a complete mining guide, and we were doing just that before I read your post. While I was gone though I did not see you run to the pedestal to take over and provide updates yourself though, it was simply easier to bash me. If you felt the guide was so unworthy, and you knew the author had left, why did you not volunteer to write a better one? Maybe you did not expect me to see your post or come back, but I did. You bit, I bit back, and you didn't like it. Fine enough, but if you say I am like the people I described in my two last posts, and are using one page out of the 50 in the guide, and out of god knows how many eve-mails and posts I have written, it's seriously taking it out of context and isn't appropriate at all.

Your post felt somewhat of an apology, so I will accept it in the hope that kind of talk will never arise in this thread again.

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.12 18:45:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Halada
Using a carrier as a mining platform becomes a personal choice at the end, I illustrated my opinion since this is my own guide. This opinion was backed up with facts, and it was written after I received 104 eve-mails asking me what I thought about using a carrier. Now how, but what I thought. So I obliged provided a section about it. The facts are still true - you could have interpreted them yourself.

Fine, but the issues (with the guide, not with these forum posts) are twofold: the tone of your comments (dismissive and, frankly, insulting), and your conclusions, which I feel are flatly wrong, based even on nothing more than the rest of the section, as it exists now.

Originally by: Halada
The whole point of this thread Pilk is to make a complete mining guide, and we were doing just that before I read your post. While I was gone though I did not see you run to the pedestal to take over and provide updates yourself though, it was simply easier to bash me. If you felt the guide was so unworthy, and you knew the author had left, why did you not volunteer to write a better one?

Because I've literally never flown an Exhumer in my entire life. Because I have no interest in dealing with a bunch of whiny carebears who, after cheerfully reading through a 40-odd-page guide, CBA reading 7 pages of forum posts, and instead come on here to ask, for the third or fourth time, whether a Hulk now outmines a Mackinaw for ice.

You signed up for the job. It's impressive, and I'm happy that you did. But two of my good friends are volunteer firefighters who risk their life to save my ass if my house is burning down. They don't complain; if they did, we'd all look at them incredulously and ask them why they were doing it. Their motivations are deeper than the fleeting moment of an accolade. So, when they screw up--when they sidestep or forget a safety procedure, for instance--and their fire chief or the city council comes down hard on them, they take it on the chin and vow to improve. You're a volunteer, and I respect your contributions, while pointing out some flaws in them. That doesn't mean I'm obligated to volunteer in your place, and it doesn't mean you're obligated to give a **** about what I say.

Originally by: Halada
(context)

Okay, but it's one of only four areas I really have any expertise in: capitals, drones, tanking, and, these days, warfare links. It's why there's a table of contents, after all--I skipped to the parts that were appropriate to my situation, and was aghast to discover your flawed numbers, faulty logic, and condescending and demeaning tone.

Originally by: Halada
Your post felt somewhat of an apology, so I will accept it in the hope that kind of talk will never arise in this thread again.

Well, I was hoping for an apology for all the vitriol, carefully-formatted and published in your guide, towards those who were contemplating capital mining, which struck me as far more insulting than my comments, as it's akin to you publishing a book entitled, "Pilk's an idiot," where I'm writing an Op-Ed column in my local newspaper; that is, your views both have an implied finality and aura of careful consideration to them that makes them far more damaging, in my eyes, than the comparatively-flippant comments I make here. Up to you if you want to provide that, I suppose. I still want to fix the capital mining information, even if you have no interest in stepping up to the plate for your own faults, as I have for mine.

So, erm... does this mean you want me to just rewrite the entire section and submit that here? What direction do you want to take the collaboration, exactly? Do you have a replacement for that section already lined up, that you'd like me to edit? Let me know how I can help you.

--P

Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Posted - 2007.07.12 19:36:00 - [208]
 

I agree some sections need fixing, so the capital ship section will be completely re-written to be more objective as you pointed out. I still firmly believe the carrier is a support ship that can do very little alone however, but it's clear carriers are becoming more accessible now, and even a pair of them could do well with some AFK mining with little risks ...

But if I was in the shoes of someone really willing to make money out of mining, I'd mine until I have enough to buy a Hulk pilot, and have him mine, with the carrier tanking the belt, with half its fighters out assigned to the Hulk, the Hulk within its remote repairer range and the Hulk already locked so if it gets called first by a small hit'n'run pirates group, the Hulk gets repaired and can lock the targets faster than the carrier and send the fighters in (that is, if the attackers have the balls to take on the Hulk. Hell, I remember once, I was tanking angels in my Hulk, and a Taranis popped in the belt and started orbiting at blaster's range. I was tanking both Angels and Taranis ... ROFL Laughing

With the Hulk's drop in price, buying a 10milSP mining char to go with it is a serious and very good investment. When I quit EVE I had sold all my chars, but with the proper toon army, you can be self sufficient with multiple accounts and characters with GTC, and it doesn't cost a dime.






Zion Zan'threxian
I.M.M
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2007.07.13 07:51:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Zion Zan''threxian on 13/07/2007 08:38:04
Edited by: Zion Zan''threxian on 13/07/2007 07:53:39
I notice a mistake (if not already brought to your attention) Monoclinic is listed as the high yield bistot and triclinic as the mid yield. I think this is backwards.

(Page 7)

Also the table notes on page 12,
Miner I (or named) can be fitted on any ship
Miner II can be fitted on any ship

in fact barges themselves CANNOT while this is pure semantics, for accuracy this should perhaps be noted (not that anyone would want to fit them, but they do require a turret slot)

Mattif2k3
Gallente
Pretty Good Piracy
Posted - 2007.07.13 10:40:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Mattif2k3 on 13/07/2007 10:40:38
Originally by: Zion Zan'threxian
I notice a mistake (if not already brought to your attention) Monoclinic is listed as the high yield bistot and triclinic as the mid yield. I think this is backwards.
nope it is alright. mono is 10% (see also here).



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