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Del369
Caldari
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:17:00 - [241]
 

/definately 100% NOT signed, luv warp to 0, thanks ccp best game addition i've seen yet Laughing

Semper Sanguis
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:17:00 - [242]
 

Quote:
Essentially, nothing much happened but the introduction a time saver for everybody. E-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y. You have it, your competition has it. Nobody has any special advantage.


Ain't that just great? Why don't we just remove all ships and issue a standard SpaceShip I for everyone too? It'd level the playing field and NO ONE WOULD HAVE ANY SPECIAL ADVANTAGE.

You know why? Because simplifying the game does not make it better in any way. If there was no way to travel fast, I'd understand people wanting WTZ, but that is not the case. With WT15, ships that are inheritly mobile and fast travel faster, big slow ships with better firepower on the other hand are slower and more time-consuming. It is a matter of strategy, choice and simple common sense which one you choose.

That point of decision making is now pretty much gone. No one has any special advantage beyond a few seconds of aligning time and another 3-5 seconds of warptime.

Good job CCP. Continue "leveling the playing field". Lets see how far you can dumb the game down until it becomes unbearable due to simplicity. It'll be far shorter than before it becomes unbearable due to long travel times with ships that are supposed to be slow in the first place as a drawback.

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:17:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Ruciza
Edited by: Ruciza on 02/12/2006 22:13:16
The argument "if you don't want to wait that use an interceptor" must be a joke. Dude...what are haulers and freigthters good for then?

Essentially, nothing much happened but the introduction a time saver for everybody. E-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y. You have it, your competition has it. Nobody has any special advantage.

Slow boating is not acceptable for real people with real lives who play a game for fun. And this is the argument that beats all meta-level game considerations. End of story. Real life wins. You lose.

My fun multiplied manifold with my new global insta set. Good decision.


pftt that sounds like the post of someone who doesn't have patience and wants everything now now now, lemme guess your one of these people that plays fps games with cheats on just so you can get to all the content asap.

The time invested in something gave it more value in game, Trade for example the time shifting stuff back and forth was a big component of its value, now its a couple of minutes just jumping.

Infact im going to go as far to say I reckon that now we have warp to zero lag is going to get worse... why because everyones instaing while traveling the number of session changes per arbitary period of time will increase, this mean database access goes up thus producing lag.

Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:20:00 - [244]
 

While the session changes will probably go up, once the bookmarks are deleted the number of hits to the DB will still go down. One person jumping with 4k bookmarks will always be a bigger hit than 20 people jumping with 20-30 bookmarks each.

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:23:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Semper Sanguis
Quote:
Essentially, nothing much happened but the introduction a time saver for everybody. E-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y. You have it, your competition has it. Nobody has any special advantage.


Ain't that just great? Why don't we just remove all ships and issue a standard SpaceShip I for everyone too? It'd level the playing field and NO ONE WOULD HAVE ANY SPECIAL ADVANTAGE.

You know why? Because simplifying the game does not make it better in any way. If there was no way to travel fast, I'd understand people wanting WTZ, but that is not the case. With WT15, ships that are inheritly mobile and fast travel faster, big slow ships with better firepower on the other hand are slower and more time-consuming. It is a matter of strategy, choice and simple common sense which one you choose.

That point of decision making is now pretty much gone. No one has any special advantage beyond a few seconds of aligning time and another 3-5 seconds of warptime.

Good job CCP. Continue "leveling the playing field". Lets see how far you can dumb the game down until it becomes unbearable due to simplicity. It'll be far shorter than before it becomes unbearable due to long travel times with ships that are supposed to be slow in the first place as a drawback.


Have to Echo Semper here, to vaugely quote foamy the squirrel, im fed up with people dumbing down their idea's for the masses. EVE has worked fine with insta's for years, DO NOT BRING UP THE ISSUE OF LAG THEY CAUSED, that was easily resolvable with out implementing warp to zero, warp to zero coming in and insta lag are in no way related. EVE is reknown in the gaming community for not giving its players an easy ride but making them work a little AND ITS ADMIRED FOR THAT, Start changing systems to suite the masses you give up the uniqueness of the game. Look at other MMO companies that have pulled moves like this.... they are't respected by the gaming community but are frequently mocked and discredited.

Semper Sanguis
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:25:00 - [246]
 

The word "Lag" does not compute in any WTZ related argument.

If they had removed instas and put in WT15 the problem would have been solved the exact way.

WTZ is not an exclusive solution to lag or bm load. It's a colossal cop-out on behalf of the dev team.

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:30:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Semper Sanguis
The word "Lag" does not compute in any WTZ related argument.

If they had removed instas and put in WT15 the problem would have been solved the exact way.

WTZ is not an exclusive solution to lag or bm load. It's a colossal cop-out on behalf of the dev team.


The vast majority of people are extremely happy with WTZ - the vast majority of those people who aren't happy with WTZ are unhappy because ganking in low sec now requires much more effort than simply parking up by a gate in 0.4 and waiting.



Semper Sanguis
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:36:00 - [248]
 

Quote:
The vast majority of people are extremely happy with WTZ - the vast majority of those people who aren't happy with WTZ are unhappy because ganking in low sec now requires much more effort than simply parking up by a gate in 0.4 and waiting.


This statement is wrong because you don't speak for any "majority" or "minority", and frankly you lack the ability to understand that random superficial gate-ganking isn't at all the reason why instas and now WTZ are such a critical failure of the devs, so don't hold your breath for election any time soon.

Draconia Blackheart
Disciples of the Underverse
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:43:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Semper Sanguis

WTZ is not an exclusive solution to lag or bm load. It's a colossal cop-out on behalf of the dev team.


The greatest and most adventagous "cop-out" the game has ever seen
This has gone on for 9 pages and most of you have reinforced the fact that CCP will not be reversing WTZ...so live with it and (as I hear constantly from people who have nothing else to say)..ADAPT!

Above all else CCP/EVE is there to MAKE MONEY..they are a business!

1.) IF they reverse WTZ now, everyone who had a gazillon BMS is gonna quit.
and
2.) If they reverse WTZ (people who praise it like me) are gonna guit.

CCP is NOT going to see that kind of money go out the door..Its not about your playstyle, its not about the game. Its about money. Besides the BM lag, EVE is getting alot more in that just 'want to play', 'carebears' if you will, that would rather treat EVE as an empire building game rather than a "deathmatch" game. If this is not to your liking, exercise your right to LEAVE!..

People abused the bookmark system and now cry holy murder when they get spanked for it..Rolling Eyes

Cheers

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:44:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: BurnHard
Originally by: Semper Sanguis
The word "Lag" does not compute in any WTZ related argument.

If they had removed instas and put in WT15 the problem would have been solved the exact way.

WTZ is not an exclusive solution to lag or bm load. It's a colossal cop-out on behalf of the dev team.


The vast majority of people are extremely happy with WTZ - the vast majority of those people who aren't happy with WTZ are unhappy because ganking in low sec now requires much more effort than simply parking up by a gate in 0.4 and waiting.





I could also say the vast majority of your vast majority don't want pvp in the game either, should ccp give it to them. You'd probably say yes, but the answer is f*** no simply because it wouldn't be eve anymore it would be WoW in space. Seriously the only reason people are happy with warp to zero is they had the inability to learn to deal with issues such as gate camping by finding alternatives. Why should everyone have the game easy without any work. Seriously if someones not smart enough to stop going through a gate he's been ganked at repeatedly do you reward him?

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:47:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Draconia Blackheart
Originally by: Semper Sanguis

WTZ is not an exclusive solution to lag or bm load. It's a colossal cop-out on behalf of the dev team.


The greatest and most adventagous "cop-out" the game has ever seen
This has gone on for 9 pages and most of you have reinforced the fact that CCP will not be reversing WTZ...so live with it and (as I hear constantly from people who have nothing else to say)..ADAPT!

Above all else CCP/EVE is there to MAKE MONEY..they are a business!

1.) IF they reverse WTZ now, everyone who had a gazillon BMS is gonna quit.
and
2.) If they reverse WTZ (people who praise it like me) are gonna guit.

CCP is NOT going to see that kind of money go out the door..Its not about your playstyle, its not about the game. Its about money. Besides the BM lag, EVE is getting alot more in that just 'want to play', 'carebears' if you will, that would rather treat EVE as an empire building game rather than a "deathmatch" game. If this is not to your liking, exercise your right to LEAVE!..

People abused the bookmark system and now cry holy murder when they get spanked for it..Rolling Eyes

Cheers



lets point out the flaw in your argument... Everyone who disagrees with warp to zero strongly will quit. You'll come back with the argument no they won't they'll just use warp to zero and put up with it. My answer Prove It, Your answer You Can't, My Answer Which also means you can't prove people that praise wtz or people that had a gazillion bookmarks will quit, which in short makes your argument pointless futile and now defunct

Draconia Blackheart
Disciples of the Underverse
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:54:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: ToxicFire

lets point out the flaw in your argument... Everyone who disagrees with warp to zero strongly will quit. You'll come back with the argument no they won't they'll just use warp to zero and put up with it. My answer Prove It, Your answer You Can't, My Answer Which also means you can't prove people that praise wtz or people that had a gazillion bookmarks will quit, which in short makes your argument pointless futile and now defunct


"Lets point out", I CAN prove it..what I said above is not MY opinion..(if you know how to read forums, which I have stong doubts about) it is the opinions of people on these forums not mine. I don't see a massive exodus of people since WTZ came in, only a few malcontents that SAY they are going..so YOUR comment on that is "pointless and defunct"..

Have a Nice Day..

Semper Sanguis
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:57:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Draconia Blackheart
Originally by: Semper Sanguis

WTZ is not an exclusive solution to lag or bm load. It's a colossal cop-out on behalf of the dev team.


The greatest and most adventagous "cop-out" the game has ever seen
This has gone on for 9 pages and most of you have reinforced the fact that CCP will not be reversing WTZ...so live with it and (as I hear constantly from people who have nothing else to say)..ADAPT!

Above all else CCP/EVE is there to MAKE MONEY..they are a business!

1.) IF they reverse WTZ now, everyone who had a gazillon BMS is gonna quit.
and
2.) If they reverse WTZ (people who praise it like me) are gonna guit.

CCP is NOT going to see that kind of money go out the door..Its not about your playstyle, its not about the game. Its about money. Besides the BM lag, EVE is getting alot more in that just 'want to play', 'carebears' if you will, that would rather treat EVE as an empire building game rather than a "deathmatch" game. If this is not to your liking, exercise your right to LEAVE!..

People abused the bookmark system and now cry holy murder when they get spanked for it..Rolling Eyes

Cheers



So basically, your whole argument is based on the condition that you're sleeping with the CEO of CCP and he tells you their business plans and secrets during pillow-talk. Otherwise, you're just talking as if you know something, but infact know nothing.

How many people would quit if WTZ was turned into WT15 today? 1000? 2000? 10000? Who can say for sure? Answer is; no one, not you especially. People like you did prophesize that half of the player base would quit with a) the missile changes b) the tracking changes c) random nerfs etc. etc. and it has never happened. Historically, we have a bunch of doomsday preachers who are constantly proven WRONG by the fact that the game hasn't died every time they cried about something.

CCP is a Business, yeah, and in the business world, when you carve a niche in a market where predators like Blizzard and Sony roam around squashing every little MMO, you keep by the reason why you survived in the first place. (Hint: That reason isn't silly pointless third-class carebear grinding, npc content, try-hard roleplaying or ADDING FEATURES TO THE GAME THAT DUMB IT DOWN TO MAKE IT EASIER AND SIMPLER FOR THE LAZY AND STAGNATED CLICK-REPEAT-HOARD GAMERS.

BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:58:00 - [254]
 

Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 02/12/2006 23:05:47
NO Keep WTZ - CASE IN POIT!!!!

Ive been playing since beta and have never been podded ... untill last night.. ATFER the WTZ took effect.

So all this get rid of WTZ is BS.... obviously there are pople using the resources the devs gave them quite sucessfully.

Just get creative.

- - -

As far as you argument about people quitting, I was plaaning to quit untill I heard they were bringing WTZ. I still get down and dirty, but for me it was an issue of time. I cant play for 10+ like some of the campers. I was (am) able to do more when I log on to EVE, as a result I will actually play more probably. I for one appreciate that. And i still get the risk associated with travel in 0.0, check the map, people are still getting podded.


I also appreciate, that now I have time to fight REAL opponents, not just some camper catching a noob due to dumb luck in a random location. We still fight like hell, only we do it as the above poster mentioned.. we do it by building empiresa and invading space.

Get rid of time consuming petty thieves, keep WTZ.

HermIone's
Posted - 2006.12.02 22:58:00 - [255]
 

I like warp to 0 so leave it in.

Draconia Blackheart
Disciples of the Underverse
Posted - 2006.12.02 23:00:00 - [256]
 

Edited by: Draconia Blackheart on 02/12/2006 23:01:05

Semper..
Remember to take your blood presure medication..Then count to 10!

Cheers

Semper Sanguis
Posted - 2006.12.02 23:04:00 - [257]
 

Aw, whats the matter? Good, solid arguments not your thing?

Capt Sparky
Posted - 2006.12.02 23:08:00 - [258]
 

warp to zero is good, we get ease db , and we get rid of some boring tedious aspects of eve( bm copying, insta creating to haul cans etc.).

Sorry for those who say it created the realism effect and not everythign shoudl be easy, for most of us with limited time for play it was time lost really.

WTZ ftw:)

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.02 23:16:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: ToxicFire

I could also say the vast majority of your vast majority don't want pvp in the game either, should ccp give it to them. You'd probably say yes, but the answer is f*** no simply because it wouldn't be eve anymore it would be WoW in space. Seriously the only reason people are happy with warp to zero is they had the inability to learn to deal with issues such as gate camping by finding alternatives. Why should everyone have the game easy without any work. Seriously if someones not smart enough to stop going through a gate he's been ganked at repeatedly do you reward him?


No that isn't true at all. I love PvP, but I don't like ganking. The benefits of WTZ are far more widespread, especially within the realms of actually getting stuff done in Eve and making the game "feel" more fun to play. I would describe it as a large reduction in Cognitive Burden. Making something more difficult doesn't make it more fun, so you cannot use the argument that making things easier makes it less fun. Travel (within system and between systems) is not a fun thing to do and the longer you spend doing it, the more frustrating and tedious the game becomes. One of the main criticisms of Eve outside of the player-base is that you spend most of your time doing naff-all but approaching gates. It was this games main disease. WTZ has cured that.


Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.02 23:20:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Draconia Blackheart

"Lets point out", I CAN prove it..what I said above is not MY opinion..(if you know how to read forums, which I have stong doubts about) it is the opinions of people on these forums not mine. I don't see a massive exodus of people since WTZ came in, only a few malcontents that SAY they are going..so YOUR comment on that is "pointless and defunct"..

Have a Nice Day..



well you have to bear with me and my opinion 'til my sub runs out .. which will happen in less than 4 weeks.

Ehrys Marakai
Caldari
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.12.03 00:02:00 - [261]
 

Why leave the game over something like this?

It's equivalent to "Whaaa I didn't get what I want!! *stomp feet, throw paddy"
What's the word I'm looking for...
Oh yeah, childish...


WTZ has it's advantages, it also has it's disadvantages. WTZ makes people complacent.

Many many of us use insta's. This is without doubt. (Otherwise there would be no market for them)
So, tell me when have you been ganked travelling through low-sec?
I'll answer this for you, it's on the other side as you're trying to warp away.

Combat aside...

This does present a problem for the current trade hubs, undoubtedly. So much in fact it's near impossible to do anything in Jita/Motsu/Rens etc. What does this cause? It means players aren't willing to spend 25+ minutes trying to buy a single item and will go somewhere else. This will remove the trade hub problem, but very slowly.

In my opinion, server performance has improved, although this may be a co-incidence with the patch. This may be due to the removal of several hundred thousand BM's from the database, or maybe better server code.

WTZ removes the tedium of gate to gate and docking travel. It means players can spend more time actually playing the game, especially if you cannot afford or do not wish to purchase a BM set.

If you *really* have a problem with not being able to pop people on the way to a gate, goto 0.0 and camp there with a bubble. Get some guts and go out of protected space and actually BE a pirate.

The End

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.12.03 00:24:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Semper Sanguis
ADDING FEATURES TO THE GAME THAT DUMB IT DOWN TO MAKE IT EASIER AND SIMPLER FOR THE LAZY AND STAGNATED CLICK-REPEAT-HOARD GAMERS.[/i]

Easy and simple? Was it so terribly hard and complex for you click-repeating those insta-BMs? This change has a minimal effect on gameplay as almost everybody who traveled through non-secure space had instas everywhere, this isn't making anybody dumber.

I don't care how many (if any) quit because of this, that is not the point. And neither is lag. It's just cutting down excessive travel time that can make the game boring and games should generally try not to be boring.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.03 00:38:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Ehrys Marakai
Why leave the game over something like this?

It's equivalent to "Whaaa I didn't get what I want!! *stomp feet, throw paddy"
What's the word I'm looking for...
Oh yeah, childish...


WTZ has it's advantages, it also has it's disadvantages. WTZ makes people complacent.

Many many of us use insta's. This is without doubt. (Otherwise there would be no market for them)
So, tell me when have you been ganked travelling through low-sec?
I'll answer this for you, it's on the other side as you're trying to warp away.

Combat aside...

This does present a problem for the current trade hubs, undoubtedly. So much in fact it's near impossible to do anything in Jita/Motsu/Rens etc. What does this cause? It means players aren't willing to spend 25+ minutes trying to buy a single item and will go somewhere else. This will remove the trade hub problem, but very slowly.

In my opinion, server performance has improved, although this may be a co-incidence with the patch. This may be due to the removal of several hundred thousand BM's from the database, or maybe better server code.

WTZ removes the tedium of gate to gate and docking travel. It means players can spend more time actually playing the game, especially if you cannot afford or do not wish to purchase a BM set.

If you *really* have a problem with not being able to pop people on the way to a gate, goto 0.0 and camp there with a bubble. Get some guts and go out of protected space and actually BE a pirate.

The End


if this post was directed at me ...

well - as i allready said once ..

i don't play EVE to camp a gate, i play EVE for the chase and the hunt.

the rest is up to you to figure it out.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.03 00:40:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Semper Sanguis
ADDING FEATURES TO THE GAME THAT DUMB IT DOWN TO MAKE IT EASIER AND SIMPLER FOR THE LAZY AND STAGNATED CLICK-REPEAT-HOARD GAMERS.[/i]

Easy and simple? Was it so terribly hard and complex for you click-repeating those insta-BMs? This change has a minimal effect on gameplay as almost everybody who traveled through non-secure space had instas everywhere, this isn't making anybody dumber.



fly once without instas through hostile 0.0 - then you'll know how instas/WTZ dumb this game down.

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.12.03 00:55:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Semper Sanguis
ADDING FEATURES TO THE GAME THAT DUMB IT DOWN TO MAKE IT EASIER AND SIMPLER FOR THE LAZY AND STAGNATED CLICK-REPEAT-HOARD GAMERS.[/i]

Easy and simple? Was it so terribly hard and complex for you click-repeating those insta-BMs? This change has a minimal effect on gameplay as almost everybody who traveled through non-secure space had instas everywhere, this isn't making anybody dumber.



fly once without instas through hostile 0.0 - then you'll know how instas/WTZ dumb this game down.

I have on several occasions flown through hostile 0.0 without instas and only once been killed by a gate camp. I had less than 100 BMs, most of them were tactical safespots. I doubt my intelligence has dropped severely due to WTZ, perhaps that's just me. Now stop acting so damn superior and face the facts... WTZ is here to stay.

Izo Azlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.12.03 00:55:00 - [266]
 

9 pages and 7000 Views,

not one Dev response?

I understand the BM's cause server lag, and thats bad that they do. I'm happy BM's are gone... But I think 0km is a bad thing. As said before, if I wanted to travel fast I'd jump in a Inty and get to where I'm going.

All I have to do now is be at my PC and click, the longest bit in most instances is either physically jumping, or actually being in warp... Both of which times I cannot be engaged.

Nah CCP, I appreciate you lightening the Server load, because god knows that cannot be easy... But warp to 0km for *everywhere* and not just Gate to Gate was a bad thing... And I dont see why it should have been done that way...

Just my thoughts...

/signed for the OP anyway.


Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.03 01:00:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Dixon
stuff



fly once without instas through hostile 0.0 - then you'll know how instas/WTZ dumb this game down.

I have on several occasions flown through hostile 0.0 without instas and only once been killed by a gate camp. I had less than 100 BMs, most of them were tactical safespots. I doubt my intelligence has dropped severely due to WTZ, perhaps that's just me. Now stop acting so damn superior and face the facts... WTZ is here to stay.


it's not you who got dumbed down - it's the game. Wink

or do you want to tell me that WTZ need as much thought and planing (especially: what's my plan if suddenly hostiles jump into the system?) as without WTZ/instas?

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.12.03 01:09:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: Dixon on 03/12/2006 01:10:29
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

it's not you who got dumbed down - it's the game. Wink

or do you want to tell me that WTZ need as much thought and planing (especially: what's my plan if suddenly hostiles jump into the system?) as without WTZ/instas?

what's my plan if suddenly hostiles jump into the system?

Pre WTZ: Log off/use insta/cloak/kill them all
Post WTZ: Log off/use WTZ/cloak/kill them all

The difference being 'use WTZ' will be slightly more common than 'use insta' but 'log off' might get less popular.

Izo Azlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.12.03 01:13:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Dixon
Edited by: Dixon on 03/12/2006 01:10:29
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

it's not you who got dumbed down - it's the game. Wink

or do you want to tell me that WTZ need as much thought and planing (especially: what's my plan if suddenly hostiles jump into the system?) as without WTZ/instas?

what's my plan if suddenly hostiles jump into the system?

Pre WTZ: Log off/use insta/cloak/kill them all
Post WTZ: Log off/use WTZ/cloak/kill them all

The difference being 'use WTZ' will be slightly more common than 'use insta' but 'log off' might get less popular.


Because sometimes theres an ounce of hope they might land at 15km, and now you know full well theres no point being in the same local with them.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.03 01:14:00 - [270]
 

uhmm .. ok .. maybe i should have made my point clearer ...

if you approach the gate because you don't have instas - you need to keep an eye on local, you need to scan for ships warping in on your gate if there were people allready in local with you, you need to keep an eye on the gate you're approaching - maybe there's some hostiles jumping in. then you need to know what you're doing when some hostiles are in warp to your gate/uncloak near you.

while with WTZ/instas you warp on 0m to the gate and jump through.




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