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Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:30:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: JeanPierre
This simply sounds like a moment of opportunity to me. If the big issue is major commerce hubs being horribly clogged, then get an alliance together (or their Empire wing) and start a hub somewhere else, and compete with the prices in the existing hub(s). The more people do this, the less congestion in just one area.

The original vision was actually warp to gate, by the way. The original vision was not "die a slow death of waiting". You still have bubbles and dictors, you can still gank when somebody comes through a gate with a competent gang, and you have the ability to actually affect the market and make a killing in the process. Very little has changed with WTZ that cannot be corrected through a natural balancing process of player interaction. It will, give it time.

Btw, good to have a forum discussion with somebody not out to call names or flame. Very Happy


I guess you're right. I sure hope you are anyway. It will show in time. The issue of holding vast amounts of unused space needs to be looked into though. Adding more regions isn't the answer I think. Make thinking about logistics count a bit more and I'll be happy. Smile

Oh, and yeah. It's nice to be able to remove one's flame-repellant suit. Laughing

/Ki

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:52:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: BurnHard

You have gained opportunities for interaction - being able to catch mission runners with scanning, large bubbles, WCS nerf for instance.



read my sig

Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:07:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Let me give you an example of what I want:


Originally by: Ki An
Picture an alliance claiming space in 0.0. Today they camp the entrance(s) to their region and hold countless systems while using but a few. To be able to claim large amounts of space in the game as I picture it, you'de have to have logistics to keep up. Perhaps a POS in every critical system which is used as a forward base of operations. Then you'de have a dedicated defence force who rotates in this system, and not a bunch of people thinking "Well, I don't feel like ratting today, I'll go camp the gate".


That could be achieved now. Why don't alliances send large 23/7 patrols on the entrances to their space with a dedicated defence force that take watch in shifts? Rolling Eyes Its insanely boring. Some people have have security watch as their job irl only to come home to eve for more stargazing? Most people want stuff to happen. They want to shoot, they want to fight, they want to get the rush of adrenaline (I'm not talking about those that more enjoy the mining and market side of EVE).

Originally by: Ki An
The game swings more in the direction of organization and team-building, and away from "Insta-fun the moment I log on". I always felt this was EVE's strong-point, which set it apart from every other MMO. Logistics and organization should play a large part in EVE life for an aspiring corp. To me this is fun. I guess to a lot others it seem like working, but I think it's fun. Hence, it's what I want and what I argue for. Much like you argue for what you want.


Fair enough, but you can join a corp that focuses on logistics or you can join a pvp focused corp with more of the "kill kill kill" focus. Both can have organization and both styles are already here, why should one be killed off because you want everyone to play your way? One thing that I enjoy about EVE than other mmo's is that in EVE, you can spend as little / as much time as you want. Many other mmo's require you getting a party together and sticking together and spend 3 hours just to make any progress. One thing that drove me away from FFXI was that it just required too big of time blocks to dedicate to do anything. I'd spend 1 hour just traveling to a place to progress my character or get some special equipment or w/e. One senario with all gates as 15km bubbles:

Dave Theman > Hey guys, lets get together a group to pvp.
Mulock > Ok
Spacedude28 > where at?
ddenis > yeah
sgt chris > I've only got 2 hours to play
omega9 > I'll bring my geddon
Dave Theman > k
Dave Theman > Someone bring an inty
speed dmon > I got it
Mulock > I got a raven
Dave Theman > the usual spot
Spacedude28 > kk
ddenis > I'm 7 jumps out with a Rokh
Dave Theman > kk, hurry
speed dmon > All set here
sgt chris > me 2
Dave Theman > we all here yet?
ddenis > 6 jumps out...
omega9 > ...
speed dmon > Why do moons glow in space like they're stars?
ddenis > Ok, here
Mulock > gogogo!!1
Dave Theman > Alright, lets head down to the usual place to get sum killz
speed dmon > damn that raven is slow
44down > Hey guys, can I join too?
Dave Theman > we're 4 jumps away now, can you catch up?
44down > need escort plz! I'm setup for snipe
Dave Theman > Alright lets head back and pick 44 up.
Mulock > omg!
omega9 > lol
Dave Theman > Ok, now we've got everyone together.
sgt chris > Sorry guys, I've gtg. Have work 5am tomorrow morning
Spacedude28 > Yeah, I've only got about 20 mintutes left too.
Dave Theman > ...
ddenis > Dinner, bbl
Mulock > I'm going to go mining then
Dave Theman > At least we got a shuttle warping to the gate on our way back...

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:12:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Sever Aldaria
stuff


Points read and understood. I argue for my enjoyment of the game. Not for the enjoyment of people who want to experience all of EVE in 2 hours of game-play. If corps where localized to a system or two, the problems you described wouldn't exist, or at least not be as prevalent.

About it being boring claiming space, well if it's boring, don't do it.

Anyways, I see your point, and I understand I am in the minority.

/Ki

Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:30:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Sever Aldaria
stuff


Points read and understood. I argue for my enjoyment of the game. Not for the enjoyment of people who want to experience all of EVE in 2 hours of game-play. If corps where localized to a system or two, the problems you described wouldn't exist, or at least not be as prevalent.

About it being boring claiming space, well if it's boring, don't do it.

Anyways, I see your point, and I understand I am in the minority.

/Ki



I'm not saying you should experience all of EVE in 2 hours. In that senario all that was done was a shuttle killed. Wtz hardly allows you to experience everything in 2 hours or even 2 months.

Its a bit confusing that first you say you want alliances to claim space and now you say don't claim space?


Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:48:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Sever Aldaria
Its a bit confusing that first you say you want alliances to claim space and now you say don't claim space?



I'm saying, claim space if you want. Today it's too easy to claim vast amounts of space. Look at BoB for instance. (Disclaimer: This is not an anti-BoB post. It's an example to make a point.) They hold, what, 3-4 regions of space? 1500 players? Probably less counting the alts. I'm not saying they haven't worked for the space they hold. I'm saying that if you can hold that much space with 1500 players, something is seriously wrong. I am also saying that one of the main reasons they are able to do that is because of WTZ/Instas. Otherwise they would not have been able to field fleets to protect their territory when it's that far from their home.

What I'm saying is that WTZ/Instas have more repercussions(ehrm... sic) than mere combat, and that it affects all aspects of the game, throwing it off balance, or at least propelling it towards a style of game-play I'm not sure I enjoy. I know, I know... quit then, right? Well, I'm going to hang in there, hoping something changes. After all, I am not really personally affected by alliances holding crazy-loads of space, and there are a lot more areas of EVE that I enjoy. A problem is only a problem when you are personally affected, right?

/Ki

Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:22:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: Sever Aldaria on 01/12/2006 19:22:18
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Sever Aldaria
Its a bit confusing that first you say you want alliances to claim space and now you say don't claim space?



I'm saying, claim space if you want. Today it's too easy to claim vast amounts of space. Look at BoB for instance. (Disclaimer: This is not an anti-BoB post. It's an example to make a point.) They hold, what, 3-4 regions of space? 1500 players? Probably less counting the alts. I'm not saying they haven't worked for the space they hold. I'm saying that if you can hold that much space with 1500 players, something is seriously wrong. I am also saying that one of the main reasons they are able to do that is because of WTZ/Instas. Otherwise they would not have been able to field fleets to protect their territory when it's that far from their home.

What I'm saying is that WTZ/Instas have more repercussions(ehrm... sic) than mere combat, and that it affects all aspects of the game, throwing it off balance, or at least propelling it towards a style of game-play I'm not sure I enjoy. I know, I know... quit then, right? Well, I'm going to hang in there, hoping something changes. After all, I am not really personally affected by alliances holding crazy-loads of space, and there are a lot more areas of EVE that I enjoy. A problem is only a problem when you are personally affected, right?

/Ki



Though bob may claim that space, they don't secure it all the time. I know several people that take ratting trips into bob space for some money making. Sometimes they encounter a bob fleet, sometimes not. Point is, alliances don't really keep their space secure under the current soverienty system. If you wanted your space to be secure, you couldn't claim as much. Its important in 0.0 to be able to move quickly and eliminating wtz / instas would see much of the 0.0 community quitting.

Hrm... I seem to recall long travel times being in the top put-downs about EVE to new players.

If I understand your view correctly, you want x system to have more significance than just another system people travel through that has a station and some belts and planets that you can't interact with. You want people to stay in 1 constellation much of their lives. To me, only playing in 3 or 4 systems for months would get old and traveling with a hauler or other large ship oh so agonizing with 15km to travel at each gate.

Its a time waster. Recently, I've been doing lvl 4 missions and gotten a new Kali mission (I think) twice now called "The Assault". Its a simple mission with 2 rooms but the accelleration gate from the 1st room to the 2nd room is 120km away from where you're dropped out in the 1st room. Slowboating this distance in my Raven took almost 15 minutes of doing nothing. This is an unnecessary time waster. If each mission were like this then I'd probably look for an alternative source of good income. If I had to slowboat 15km to each gate... well. That too is an unnecessary time waster.

Thats how I see it anyway.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:22:00 - [188]
 

"I want Eve. And Eve is about consequences. WTZ takes the risk of consequences away. And it is far more involved than a simple unimportant gate camp."


Sorry but i dislike these holier than thou nonesense reasons. Look if you want eve to be about consequences DON't use warp to zero it is THAT SIMPLE. To be honest any arguement about risk is total nonesense because there are far more issues in eve that allow people to play and pvp with low to no risk. Suicide gankers in empire sit in NPC corps camping gates 100% safe even though everyone knows they are waiting to gank the next phat hauler passing by ZERO RISK, Sniping pirates in low sec almsot zero risk, hell most any pirate very low risk, people in interceptors yup you goto it almost no risk, big alliances in 0.0, got the choke poitns camped and loads of friendly's all around them and empty locals providing them with VERY HIGH INCOME, nil risk carebearland. So really please save the lecture about WTZ somehow taking the rick out of eve.

How about this you grab a pair get out of that cheap unkillable inty stock up on a ship worth money that is often a sitting duck, and run some low sec missions in a BS, then come back and talk to the rest of us about risk, frankly anyone who flies inty's needs to stfu about risk because you play eve with almost ZERO risk, the rare time you do die your ship is pocket change to replace.

All I see is people with agenda's posting, and your agenda's are fairly transparent, because we ALL KNOW people serious about eve all had bookmarks for the areas they lived in so cut the crap this is literally about farming new or casual players end of story. The reality is if you just do not like the ability to warp to zero you're still free to warp to 15 good luck with that because we all know you guys never did that anyways you used BM's.


PS all the counters to my poitns for WTZ were off I am not gonna explain each one but here is an example, I said WTZ means server performance bonus for all of us, someone counters no deleting bookmarks would do that ( yes that would also ), but your narrow minded view is incorrect, as the amount of bookmarks in eve grew each day now with warp to zero that BM growth will shrink, thus prevent server performance from getting worse... get it? Plus after some time passes CCP might delete all BM's within 40 km of a celestial object.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:31:00 - [189]
 

"read my sig
___________________

EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears

no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts"


Oh come on ishtar EVE has been the game for carebears and gankbears long before revalations... you of all people should know that.. I mean you didn;t think running around tackling solo players in a belt in 0.0 and having your gang warp in and wtfpwnbbq him was skillfull pvp did you? You didn't think using 3 bubbles was skill before? And lastly you didnt think people ran around in cov ops before revlations? Eve has always had terrible PVP mechanics period and noone with a brain would say otherwise. It is too easy to warp while in combat, and there are too many IWIN setups over pve setups which promotes players to gank pve players instead of other pvp players, gate camping ? come on it is fancy spawn camping nothing more nothing less. 100% sure thing mods like scramblers and webbers? what a joke, why don;t these items have a chance to fail or miss? Why can a 12000 isk frigate stop a 500mill ISK BS in int's tracks....

Eve has been going the wrong way for a while now, where people in gangs use cheap ships to take the risk out of the game while pwning very expensive ships it needs to change frankly plus CCP needs to provide actual PVP enviroments where people have a reaosn to be and pvp can occur without scramblers.... A little balance in ship would help if you are gonna let the small fast ships incompacitate large expensive ships also. As It stands a tackler in a cheap fast ship can;t make a mistake BS's are so slow...

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:31:00 - [190]
 

Basically, it boils down to either:

1: people are allowed to warp to 0m

2: people are not allowed to warp to 0m, but lag up the game with BMs and do it anyway.

I'm afraid your opinions are not relevant here, folks.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:41:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

Sorry but i dislike these holier than thou nonesense reasons. Look if you want eve to be about consequences DON't use warp to zero it is THAT SIMPLE.



If you dislike high-sec gankers, stay out of high-sec. It's THAT SIMPLE. Seriously, this type of response shows that you didn't really think it through. The game-mechanic is here. I, and the person you quoted, don't like for people to have this ability because we feel it is damaging the game. It's not about US being able to not use it. It's about everyone using it. That's what is damaging in our view.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

To be honest any arguement about risk is total nonesense because there are far more issues in eve that allow people to play and pvp with low to no risk. Suicide gankers in empire sit in NPC corps camping gates 100% safe even though everyone knows they are waiting to gank the next phat hauler passing by ZERO RISK, Sniping pirates in low sec almsot zero risk, hell most any pirate very low risk, people in interceptors yup you goto it almost no risk,



I really think you should try piracy if you think it's risk free. Wouldn't know about intys as I've never flown one, but this is the first time I've heard the argument that they're some kind of unstoppable I-WIN button.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

big alliances in 0.0, got the choke poitns camped and loads of friendly's all around them and empty locals providing them with VERY HIGH INCOME, nil risk carebearland.



... which is exactly what I am adressing in my argument against WTZ/Instas

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

How about this you grab a pair get out of that cheap unkillable inty stock up on a ship worth money that is often a sitting duck, and run some low sec missions in a BS, then come back and talk to the rest of us about risk, frankly anyone who flies inty's needs to stfu about risk because you play eve with almost ZERO risk, the rare time you do die your ship is pocket change to replace.



Again, this is the first time I've heard that argument about intys, but I seem to recall seeing a fair share of them on the killboards. Hardly unkillable imo.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

All I see is people with agenda's posting, and your agenda's are fairly transparent,



You also have an agenda. It's fairly transparent as well. Of course we have agendas, otherwise we wouldn't be posting. Do you think we are arguing for the sake of the argument?

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

because we ALL KNOW people serious about eve all had bookmarks for the areas they lived in so cut the crap this is literally about farming new or casual players end of story.



Factually incorrect. Not everyone had instas for the areas they inhabited. Even if they did, that's beside the point. We are arguing against any form of insta or WTZ. It's NOT ONLY ABOUT COMBAT. I'll say that again, incase you didn't get it the first time. IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT COMBAT!!!111elevenandone

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

The reality is if you just do not like the ability to warp to zero you're still free to warp to 15 good luck with that because we all know you guys never did that anyways you used BM's.



This argument is getting quite old, and I've already replied to it once in this post.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

I said WTZ means server performance bonus for all of us, someone counters no deleting bookmarks would do that ...


I don't see what you are getting at here. You say that WTZ reduced lag. We say that the removal of BM's did that. You say that BM's would increase if WTZ was removed? We're saying it won't, 'cause we would remove the ability to create instas. What are you saying now?

/Ki

Semper Sanguis
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:43:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Basically, it boils down to either:

1: people are allowed to warp to 0m

2: people are not allowed to warp to 0m, but lag up the game with BMs and do it anyway.

I'm afraid your opinions are not relevant here, folks.


Or;

3: people are only allowed to warp to 15, no lag or bms involved.

WTZ is arguably the biggest cop-out that CCP has ever done. They've basically sacrificed strategy, diversity, immersion and common sense in favor of lazy little people who want to travel fast in big ships, and think this is OH SO GOOD.

I don't understand how the devs can expect Relevations to be a patch for cranking up PvP and conflict (with factional warfare, scanning bla bla) when they leave the two most critical elements (WTZ/instas and Local) that utterly nullify any meaningful strategies and simplify the game down for those who don't want to deal with travel time in big ships.

BUT OH WE CAN TRAVEL FASTER AND THERE'S NO BM LAG SO IT'S GREAT... not.

EPSILON DELTA
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:48:00 - [193]
 

Everyone who live or visit low sercuity often have bookmarks anyway, at least for anywhere pirates ever would want to camp, so warp to 0 didn't really change anything for them except lower the lag.
For 0.4, anyone who visit them often (chokepoints) would have a bookmark anyway, dont see how that change anything either.
besides, in 0.0 you can bubble anyway, rendering warp to 0 useless in the face of any basic camp already.

So in the end, the only people this change has negative effect on are sniping 0.4 pirates trying to catch a noob jumping in on a mission and have no experience checking system serucity. Boohoo, now 0.4 snipers can't gank noobs and get their killboard count++, big deal.

For everyone else its just lag improvement.

seem pros outweight the cons to me.




Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:51:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: EPSILON DELTA
Everyone who live or visit low sercuity often have bookmarks anyway, at least for anywhere pirates ever would want to camp, so warp to 0 didn't really change anything for them except lower the lag.
For 0.4, anyone who visit them often (chokepoints) would have a bookmark anyway, dont see how that change anything either.
besides, in 0.0 you can bubble anyway, rendering warp to 0 useless in the face of any basic camp already.

So in the end, the only people this change has negative effect on are sniping 0.4 pirates trying to catch a noob jumping in on a mission and have no experience checking system serucity. Boohoo, now 0.4 snipers can't gank noobs and get their killboard count++, big deal.

For everyone else its just lag improvement.

seem pros outweight the cons to me.




Reading the entire thread FTW?

There are loads of other arguments against instas and WTZ besides nerfing low-sec snipers. In fact, that's the one argument that I don't think any of us are in disagreement in. And, everyone didn't have instas, and even if they did that's not what we are arguing here!!! Wow, how hard is that to get?

/Ki

Merchantigus
Minmatar
Riot Zone
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:53:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: Merchantigus on 01/12/2006 19:56:02
all the people starting "I h8 warp to 0!11" are on drugs. it was like this before but there were bookmarks and cans all over the heavens. this has changed nothing.

"I'm saying, claim space if you want. Today it's too easy to claim vast amounts of space. Look at BoB for instance" bob has as you said 1500 member. of corse they can take and hold alot of space. bob wins you lose

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:55:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Merchantigus
all the people starting "I h8 warp to 0!11" are on drugs.


Wow, strong argument. I bow before thine wisdom. Very Happy

/Ki

Merchantigus
Minmatar
Riot Zone
Posted - 2006.12.01 20:02:00 - [197]
 

ineed lay off the stuff guys Rolling Eyes

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2006.12.01 22:28:00 - [198]
 

Ki your rebuttlesare off to say the least I will touch on a few though.

Your analogy if you dislike high sec gankers stay out of high sec doesnt translate. I am talking about an optional game mechanic, you are talking about a type of PLAYER who uses loopholes in the game ruleset to exploit players. Now IF i had th option to kill high sec gankers you might have some legging to stand on but I don't have that option.


NExt I have tried pirating, never died never really came close. The hard part of pirating is simply keeping you rmind active while you look for people to gank. The difference is as a pirate you are ready for combat at all times, and your looking for vitctims not ready for combat, pirates are'nt out there looking to take on other people ready to fight infact they avoid it and they can avoid it VERY easily, which is the problem. Pirates are not at much risk period. A good anology is like this, if you poke a person in the chest and say hey you I wanna fight you might get a good fight and get beat down, but what a pirate does is simply walk up behind you fo no reason and crack you over the head with a bat, you really don;t have much chance and odds are noone around can take down the person weidling a bat either...Essentially massive EDGE to pirating, because it is essentially bullying, which should be allowed but should be hard and very risky.


Trust me Inty's are very hard to kill why? Because they are always set up for PVP, and they are very fast, I never said they don't get blown up. Also inty's are very cheap ships yet extremely effective was the second part of it, so when they do get blown up it really its much of any thing up for risk, the ship runs at only 10 mill on average. Back to inty's being blown up, what you find is there is a limited type of ship that is needed to blow them up, IE only other very fast ships, meanwhile something like a battelship worth immensly more can be blown up by an entire range of ship types. Doesnt make sense.


You are incorrect that I have an agenda KI nothing I posted suggests I have an agenda ( well okay I do it is make the game perform better, and have some semblance of balance for all aspects... ) I am the one accepting the change, I didnt create the change, even though I agree it was a good and needed step to move the game in the right direction. I have no actual profession in eve, I am not looking to forward my favoarite aspect of eve gameplay like most of the other vocal posters are.

Most of the people against WTZ have full sets of BM they use regularly, and or are pirates/suicide gankers, and 0.0 gankers, or they are traders who make phat cahs off trade routes they got BM'd etc.


No I am factually CORRECT, most anyone SERIOUS about eve did indeed use BM's for the areas they played in. Read posts people have long come clean about thier use of bookmarks, infact if you have cloaked a ship or used a shuttle and sat at a gate in 0.0 and counted the people who use insta's opposed to those who didnt you would know I am correct you are wrong. I have done it 90% of the players or more insta'd around the gates I was exploring in 0.0


Lastly your talking about about somethin compltely different when you say removing all BM's Sure that would help server performance duh, but if you played eve enough you would also see it would spell death of the game, you just cannot manage many situations when towing in from 15km in eve, and once again I will repeat 15km is not some defacto distance the dev;s originally choose, originally you could warp to 3km... so get over it. There is a reaosn BM's became so pervasive in eve because without them flying anytype of slow ship ment you are deadmeat, people didnt start making ista's for fun... Again don;t take that to mean you always died, I mean that people started to see that if you camped a gate in numbers if people lacked insta BM's they were free kills.


Grim Vandal
Burn Proof
Posted - 2006.12.01 22:44:00 - [199]
 

well I cancled my sub 3 days ago cuz of WTZ

i have 20 days left
lets see maybe I get up to 56mill combat sp from my current 55,5 mill

the removal of instas, for the past 2 years, was the single most important change for me to happen in EVE ... well it went wrong ...

a shame ... nothing else


Draconia Blackheart
Disciples of the Underverse
Posted - 2006.12.01 22:50:00 - [200]
 

Now that Warp-To-Zero (WTZ) is in and people see what it can do. I can almost guarentee that if CCP does an about face on it a snotload of people are gonna leave (including me) and take thier money with them.

WTZ was put in because of people massively abusing the bookmarks system. Most the time its not even to '0', more like 1500-2000.

I for one consider it the greatest addition ever made to EVE.

IMHO, of course


James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 22:50:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Sever Aldaria
Originally by: Ki An
Let me give you an example of what I want:


Originally by: Ki An
Picture an alliance claiming space in 0.0. Today they camp the entrance(s) to their region and hold countless systems while using but a few. To be able to claim large amounts of space in the game as I picture it, you'de have to have logistics to keep up. Perhaps a POS in every critical system which is used as a forward base of operations. Then you'de have a dedicated defence force who rotates in this system, and not a bunch of people thinking "Well, I don't feel like ratting today, I'll go camp the gate".


That could be achieved now. Why don't alliances send large 23/7 patrols on the entrances to their space with a dedicated defence force that take watch in shifts? Rolling Eyes Its insanely boring. Some people have have security watch as their job irl only to come home to eve for more stargazing? Most people want stuff to happen. They want to shoot, they want to fight, they want to get the rush of adrenaline (I'm not talking about those that more enjoy the mining and market side of EVE).

Originally by: Ki An
The game swings more in the direction of organization and team-building, and away from "Insta-fun the moment I log on". I always felt this was EVE's strong-point, which set it apart from every other MMO. Logistics and organization should play a large part in EVE life for an aspiring corp. To me this is fun. I guess to a lot others it seem like working, but I think it's fun. Hence, it's what I want and what I argue for. Much like you argue for what you want.


Fair enough, but you can join a corp that focuses on logistics or you can join a pvp focused corp with more of the "kill kill kill" focus. Both can have organization and both styles are already here, why should one be killed off because you want everyone to play your way? One thing that I enjoy about EVE than other mmo's is that in EVE, you can spend as little / as much time as you want. Many other mmo's require you getting a party together and sticking together and spend 3 hours just to make any progress. One thing that drove me away from FFXI was that it just required too big of time blocks to dedicate to do anything. I'd spend 1 hour just traveling to a place to progress my character or get some special equipment or w/e. One senario with all gates as 15km bubbles:

Dave Theman > Hey guys, lets get together a group to pvp.
Mulock > Ok
Spacedude28 > where at?
ddenis > yeah
sgt chris > I've only got 2 hours to play
omega9 > I'll bring my geddon
Dave Theman > k
Dave Theman > Someone bring an inty
speed dmon > I got it
Mulock > I got a raven
Dave Theman > the usual spot
Spacedude28 > kk
ddenis > I'm 7 jumps out with a Rokh
Dave Theman > kk, hurry
speed dmon > All set here
sgt chris > me 2
Dave Theman > we all here yet?
ddenis > 6 jumps out...
omega9 > ...
speed dmon > Why do moons glow in space like they're stars?
ddenis > Ok, here
Mulock > gogogo!!1
Dave Theman > Alright, lets head down to the usual place to get sum killz
speed dmon > damn that raven is slow
44down > Hey guys, can I join too?
Dave Theman > we're 4 jumps away now, can you catch up?
44down > need escort plz! I'm setup for snipe
Dave Theman > Alright lets head back and pick 44 up.
Mulock > omg!
omega9 > lol
Dave Theman > Ok, now we've got everyone together.
sgt chris > Sorry guys, I've gtg. Have work 5am tomorrow morning
Spacedude28 > Yeah, I've only got about 20 mintutes left too.
Dave Theman > ...
ddenis > Dinner, bbl
Mulock > I'm going to go mining then
Dave Theman > At least we got a shuttle warping to the gate on our way back...




Funnily enough, I have a corp filled with people I know IRL. We live in the same system, and it's actually pretty easy to 'interact'.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.01 22:54:00 - [202]
 


James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 22:59:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
long winded rubbish ...


My name is Nanobotter Mk2. I understand T2 market economics and I also understand T1 market economics. I am very intelligent and WTZ is very good for EvE because I know better.


Oooh, that's fightin' dirty.

Quoting some stupid post from way back. I hope no one does that to me, I've spouted some utter drivel in my time in EVE.

Draconia Blackheart
Disciples of the Underverse
Posted - 2006.12.01 23:20:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Semper Sanguis

WTZ is arguably the biggest cop-out that CCP has ever done. They've basically sacrificed strategy, diversity, immersion and common sense in favor of lazy little people who want to travel fast in big ships, and think this is OH SO GOOD.

I don't understand how the devs can expect Relevations to be a patch for cranking up PvP and conflict (with factional warfare, scanning bla bla) when they leave the two most critical elements (WTZ/instas and Local) that utterly nullify any meaningful strategies and simplify the game down for those who don't want to deal with travel time in big ships.

BUT OH WE CAN TRAVEL FASTER AND THERE'S NO BM LAG SO IT'S GREAT... not.


Obviously this is another PVP'ers RULE EVE! fanatic...Get a Life. A HUGE portion of EVE Players are NOT "blow up the other humans ship!". Its amazing that most people who play EVE (or frequent these forums, those that have a different view are flamed so much they leave) think that the only thing people do is kill other human ships..Well, WAKE THE **** UP! It is not always about YOUR PLAYSTYLE! WTZ has been a huge help to mining,trading and the EVE economy.

Flame me all you want..See if I give a ****

Cheers!

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 23:26:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Draconia Blackheart
Originally by: Semper Sanguis

WTZ is arguably the biggest cop-out that CCP has ever done. They've basically sacrificed strategy, diversity, immersion and common sense in favor of lazy little people who want to travel fast in big ships, and think this is OH SO GOOD.

I don't understand how the devs can expect Relevations to be a patch for cranking up PvP and conflict (with factional warfare, scanning bla bla) when they leave the two most critical elements (WTZ/instas and Local) that utterly nullify any meaningful strategies and simplify the game down for those who don't want to deal with travel time in big ships.

BUT OH WE CAN TRAVEL FASTER AND THERE'S NO BM LAG SO IT'S GREAT... not.


Obviously this is another PVP'ers RULE EVE! fanatic...Get a Life. A HUGE portion of EVE Players are NOT "blow up the other humans ship!". Its amazing that most people who play EVE (or frequent these forums, those that have a different view are flamed so much they leave) think that the only thing people do is kill other human ships..Well, WAKE THE **** UP! It is not always about YOUR PLAYSTYLE! WTZ has been a huge help to mining,trading and the EVE economy.

Flame me all you want..See if I give a ****

Cheers!



Erm. No.

I'm not a PvPer at all. The majority of my 'PvP experiences' are on the recieving end of hostile fire.
In a player driven environment, be it the market, logistics, or combat, then you're _always_ competing against other players.

This is why 'balance' becomne important - giving everyone an 'i win' button, or easy mode ruins both your game and theirs. It becomes easy, and thus BORING. Or worse still in EVE, unprofitable. Easy leads to too many people doing it, and milking the latest 'I win cash cow'.

So it is with warp to zero, and a (slightly) lesser extent instas.

EVE is all about player competition. Not just the combat kind, but the economic kind, the industrial kind, or just competing to mine that arkonor.

It's important, because it brings freedom to EVE.

A good game though, isn't one that's easy. Minesweeper without any mines would be amazingly dull.

Draconia Blackheart
Disciples of the Underverse
Posted - 2006.12.01 23:35:00 - [206]
 

Well, I will use logic then..

Me making 210% more profit due to speed of travel since WTZ and Revelations.
Me think this is good. If you don't seek professional help..

Nuff Said..


James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 23:41:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Draconia Blackheart
Well, I will use logic then..

Me making 210% more profit due to speed of travel since WTZ and Revelations.
Me think this is good. If you don't seek professional help..

Nuff Said..




Easy != good game.

Merchantigus
Minmatar
Riot Zone
Posted - 2006.12.01 23:43:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Merchantigus on 01/12/2006 23:49:35
"pirates are'nt out there looking to take on other people ready to fight infact they avoid it and they can avoid it VERY easily, which is the problem. Pirates are not at much risk period."
unless he brought a single wing man or came prepared. just yesterday i attacked a cruiser and was chomping on him when his wingman came in with a jammer and they killed the crap out of me. the only reason pirating works as well as it does is because carebears float out there to hostile space with no one to watch their backs and packing nothing to scare a pirate off. noobs in big ships are a pirates wet dream but the smart ones have friends and atleast enough of a pvp setup to survive untill help comes or to fend off the pirate long enough to scare him away. if you float into yarr land with a fragile tank and long range t2 guns you deserve what you get.

"but what a pirate does is simply walk up behind you fo no reason and ***** you over the head with a bat, you really don;t have much chance and odds are noone around can take down the person weidling a bat either"

if you had shields and a bat as well this might come close to being accurate. more than often not only does he have a bat and shields but a few friends around with bats as well.

A pirates life is only as easy as the people he attacks make it for him. don't want to get slaughterd? don't come to yarr land defenceless.

When i go ratting i always fly in my pvp setup in case someone want's to play. instead of whinning untill the sun grows cold become a "carebear with teeth" and shove it right back up the pirates yarr hole.

As long as there is a counter(and in this case it's a very simple and obvious one) there is not a problem.

*edit*
what baffles me is wtz is the best thing to ever happen to people that want to avoid pvp. unless you are on auto pilot(and therefore deserve it. why would you ap through low sec in the first place?) it takes a good bit of effort for "pirates" to gatecamp. i jumped an indy through 4 sets of gate camps a few days ago and never even drew fire. you can even fit wcs for travel still to make it even safer. if you see pods killed in the past few hours and you jump there anyway sure there might be a bubbler or some other nastyness but if you get popped it's what you get for driving through a flagged mine field.

and once again before wtz people just clutterd the servers with instas and did the same thing. this is by far the most brain dead post i've seen in the past 6 hours(and here that's saying something) Rolling Eyes

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.02 01:12:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Ki your rebuttlesare off to say the least I will touch on a few though.



And here I'm thinking they're spot on. Go figure, huh? Very Happy

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

Your analogy if you dislike high sec gankers stay out of high sec doesnt translate. I am talking about an optional game mechanic, you are talking about a type of PLAYER who uses loopholes in the game ruleset to exploit players.


Well, WTZ when incorporated into the game isn't really optional if you want to be competitive. What I'm saying is that me using or not using WTZ won't make a squat of differance if everyone else uses it. I'm not talking about immersion here after all.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

NExt I have tried pirating, never died never really came close. The hard part of pirating is simply keeping you rmind active while you look for people to gank. The difference is as a pirate you are ready for combat at all times, and your looking for vitctims not ready for combat, pirates are'nt out there looking to take on other people ready to fight infact they avoid it and they can avoid it VERY easily, which is the problem. Pirates are not at much risk period. ...Essentially massive EDGE to pirating, because it is essentially bullying, which should be allowed but should be hard and very risky.



This paragraph leads me to believe that you, in fact, never did any pirating. I'll take your word for it, though, and conclude that you went after noobs in low-sec mining in their Ibises. Doing that then, yes I agree there's not much risk in piracy.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

Trust me Inty's are very hard to kill why? Because they are always set up for PVP, and they are very fast, I never said they don't get blown up. Back to inty's being blown up, what you find is there is a limited type of ship that is needed to blow them up, IE only other very fast ships, meanwhile something like a battelship worth immensly more can be blown up by an entire range of ship types. Doesnt make sense.



Is it really strange that a skill-intensive ship like an inty can blow up better ships than itself? Should ships only be able to blow up ships that costs less? Then how do you kill a titan?

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

You are incorrect that I have an agenda KI nothing I posted suggests I have an agenda



In so much as you are defending WTZ, yes you do have an agenda. Not hidden, but an agenda non the less.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

Most of the people against WTZ have full sets of BM they use regularly, and or are pirates/suicide gankers, and 0.0 gankers, or they are traders who make phat cahs off trade routes they got BM'd etc.


Wrong, and a most annoying assumption that many people make.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

No I am factually CORRECT, most anyone SERIOUS about eve did indeed use BM's for the areas they played in.



We can argue about this 'til the cows come home. Unless you can show me statistics I won't be convinced.

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

Lastly your talking about about somethin compltely different when you say removing all BM's Sure that would help server performance duh, but if you played eve enough you would also see it would spell death of the game, you just cannot manage many situations when towing in from 15km in eve, and once again I will repeat 15km is not some defacto distance the dev;s originally choose, originally you could warp to 3km... so get over it. There is a reaosn BM's became so pervasive in eve because without them flying anytype of slow ship ment you are deadmeat, people didnt start making ista's for fun... Again don;t take that to mean you always died, I mean that people started to see that if you camped a gate in numbers if people lacked insta BM's they were free kills.


I'd say that this has more to do with understanding the game than time spent in the game. It is my opinnion that you are wrong and do not understand the game.

/Ki




Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.12.02 02:32:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
Funnily enough, I have a corp filled with people I know IRL. We live in the same system, and it's actually pretty easy to 'interact'.


I assume its those same people you pvp against then since you don't leave? Laughing jk. Most corps aren't comprised of people that all know each other IRL though, nor that all only play in one system. My story wasn't focusing on people being in different systems as much as the time for 15km gate travels to every gate and leading to problems with it's unnecessary time wastage. Either way, they still roam systems for pvp (more so in 0.0 than low sec anyway).


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