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Bill Andrex
Caldari
The Knights Templar
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:35:00 - [151]
 

Having read throught this thread, it seems a lot of people are feeling very passionate about WTZ.

I feel that WTZ is a good thing for gameplay.

I am by alot a standards a noob to EVE as I have been playing for about 3 months now. I like other players acquired alot of Insta's from older players and corp friends etc, so effectively we already had a badly implemented version of WTZ anyway and was a very informal system that made people (me included) some ISK along the way :)

I like WTZ becuase it:
Arrow Levels the playing field for everyone - This is a good thing.
Arrow Allow's players to travel around EVE which is a HUGE universe quickly
Arrow Will encourage more co-operative gameplay, for corp mining and mission running etc - This is a VERY good thing, too many people join corps and end up running missions solo because a corp member is 30-40 minutes out from your system.
Arrow Makes the game more playable and hence FUN and thats what its all about at the end of the day!
Arrow Makes EVE less laggy - Woot! This is good too.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:42:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Bill Andrex

Arrow Levels the playing field for everyone - This is a good thing.


so would WT10 as long in the sphere of 100km around a gate no BMs are allowed.

Quote:

Arrow Allow's players to travel around EVE which is a HUGE universe quickly


why do we need a HUGE universe then if it hasn't an impact on gameplay?

Quote:

Arrow Will encourage more co-operative gameplay, for corp mining and mission running etc - This is a VERY good thing, too many people join corps and end up running missions solo because a corp member is 30-40 minutes out from your system.


why not join a local corp? or why not move to the corp HQ?

Quote:

Arrow Makes the game more playable and hence FUN and thats what its all about at the end of the day!


exactly .. easier games equal more fun.
Quote:

Arrow Makes EVE less laggy - Woot! This is good too.


only if everyone deletes ALL instas and DOES NOT buy/create "300km above the gate scoutspots" for every fricking system/gate ...
WT10 lessens lag as well as long no BMs 100km around the gate are allowed.

Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 13:09:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: BurnHard

I could equally argue the opposite to the "more congestion" point, given that people tend to group manufacture, processing and distribution operartions around major hubs because otherwise it would take half a day to travel there. Human Psychology: people will always come together to trade. There is nothing you can do to stop super-hub development apart from capping the number of players allowed on any given node. This has been true of Eve pretty much from the beginning. The Hub's just move when the effort required to get to them reaches a tipping point. They don't get any smaller (see removal of highways for a good example).
Quote:


The removal of highways did spread the market a bit, until people made instas and all went to jita...

Yes, people will make hubs - this is good. But you've got it backwards. If it takes me a day to get somewhere, I will try to go to the marketplace that is closer. If that "day" of travel is reduced to an hour, the "local" market will loose out as its just as convenient to go to the mega place.

Quote:

On your second point, alliances are generally more highly motivated than other groups of players - they will get to where they want to go regardless of WTZ. Either with sling-shot interceptors or instas. Some may also argue that this is threatening to large alliances, because small gangs can move around their space with greater ease.


but if you make it easier, they will expand until it takes the same amount of work. If it takes X amount of co-ordination and motivation to secure 20 systems, If the travel issues becomes more efficient they can control even more.

Quote:

On your final point (and related to the alliance security paragraph above), you have not noticed the WCS nerf and an extremely large deployable bubble included in the upgrade?


Oh god - the wcs never had any affect on bubbles - but I do like that nerf :)
As to the mega-bubbles... scary things. But totally offtopic (and impossible to use in empire where my biggest concerns are - where most of the markets are)






BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 13:25:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

so would WT10 as long in the sphere of 100km around a gate no BMs are allowed.



10km range? I can imagine logging in and spending 59 minutes travelling, 1 minute doing.

Quote:

why do we need a HUGE universe then if it hasn't an impact on gameplay?



It's just a way of balancing the load and of course, for role play purposes we call them "Systems", "Regions", "Constellations" but they could equally well be "The Bathroom", "The Toilet", "The Lounge" or "Node 123", "Node 554", "Node N23".

Quote:

why not join a local corp? or why not move to the corp HQ?



Let the player choose the way he prefers to play and provide the mechanics to support him.

Quote:

only if everyone deletes ALL instas and DOES NOT buy/create "300km above the gate scoutspots" for every fricking system/gate ...



I've deleted mine already. I'm sure many other people have. It will take a while to filter them all out but the point isn't that they are sitting in your P&P, it's when they are "active" (on hanger floors, in cans, stuff like that).

Quote:

WT10 lessens lag as well as long no BMs 100km around the gate are allowed.


Yes but it increases lag in your brain. I can safely say CCP got my $$$ again after implementing this. I just found the whole game too utterly tedious before that.

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 13:33:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Varis

Yes, people will make hubs - this is good. But you've got it backwards. If it takes me a day to get somewhere, I will try to go to the marketplace that is closer. If that "day" of travel is reduced to an hour, the "local" market will loose out as its just as convenient to go to the mega place.



No, you have it totally wrong. People still go to the mega-store, they just spend more time doing that and less time being productive. Before instas were widespread we still had the mega-store (Yulai) - after highway changes it changed address (to Jita). Another factor: what are the chances that item X is available at, say, Amarr compared to Jita and what is the price for that item? Should I waste an alt sitting at the station in Amarr or Jita? It makes more sense to put it in Jita because that is the bigger market. I'll only check Amarr if I'm passing through. Traders, manufacturers, distributers know this, so they will ship their items to Jita if they want a quick sale.

It's so much more complex than a simple distance / time relation.

PShi Pullani
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2006.12.01 13:37:00 - [156]
 

Well, sorry if someone's already mentioned this, but after the first page, i couldn't be ****ed to go through 5 more or the same old arguements being re-gurgitated for the squillianth time. Anyway - I've been playing a few nights with warp to 0 and i've found it is not reliable. The dev's have made it so that every 5 or 6 jumps you will come out of warp at a random distance from the gate - sometimes only 4km out, but sometimes 20km out. This is somewhat bad news if that system happens to be the one with the gatecamp in it.

Probably put in so that there is still some risk to travelling. However, if you don't want to lose that valuable cargo, then, unfortunately, this just means that i carry on using my insta's to be sure. Therefore the whole idea of the warp-to-0km fix is negated, as i don't delete my insta collection and indeed carry on growing it.

Tricky, eh?

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 13:40:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: PShi Pullani
Well, sorry if someone's already mentioned this, but after the first page, i couldn't be ****ed to go through 5 more or the same old arguements being re-gurgitated for the squillianth time. Anyway - I've been playing a few nights with warp to 0 and i've found it is not reliable. The dev's have made it so that every 5 or 6 jumps you will come out of warp at a random distance from the gate - sometimes only 4km out, but sometimes 20km out. This is somewhat bad news if that system happens to be the one with the gatecamp in it.

Probably put in so that there is still some risk to travelling. However, if you don't want to lose that valuable cargo, then, unfortunately, this just means that i carry on using my insta's to be sure. Therefore the whole idea of the warp-to-0km fix is negated, as i don't delete my insta collection and indeed carry on growing it.

Tricky, eh?


Must be a bug, I didn't find that with all my travels yesterday. A couple of times I didn't quite make it to jump range, but it was +/- 500m.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2006.12.01 13:52:00 - [158]
 

After the Warp To 0km went into TQ, i don't feel that i'm getting the action / danger i want as a pirate anylonger.

But that's just me.

Hussain
Gallente
Azure Horizon Federate Militia
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:00:00 - [159]
 

Just a quick note to the people that have no time to play EVE (take ME for an example), why not press a button and jump to sell.. heck no just press a button to do it all including refinig and heading back to HQ... no sorry better have someon press the button for you...

Time in game is GAMING time, if I dont have the time to play EVE or see a movie or whatever I dont do it thats true in everything.

My point is that faster is NOT always better and easier decisions are normally the wrong ones.

Thanks

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:17:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Hussain
Just a quick note to the people that have no time to play EVE (take ME for an example), why not press a button and jump to sell.. heck no just press a button to do it all including refinig and heading back to HQ... no sorry better have someon press the button for you...

Time in game is GAMING time, if I dont have the time to play EVE or see a movie or whatever I dont do it thats true in everything.

My point is that faster is NOT always better and easier decisions are normally the wrong ones.

Thanks


You are right but as a gamer you value time how exactly? A game called "Nobby Does Nothing", where you sit and do nothing for hours on end wouldn't be very popular. Just because you call it GAMING TIME, it doesn't mean it has any value.

JeanPierre
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:17:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Hussain
Hi,

I play EVE since the last days of BETA, but I consider myself a newb becouse I dont play a lot and there are months in which I dont even log, anyway here goes my opinion about the "Warp to 0" ability.

I know that many people have an allergy to shoot (I am assuming that everyone is allergic to be shot at...), that it is very easy and time effective to use Warp 0 and that everybody (not quite so) used tons of Instanjumps bookmarks. Look at my case I am a casual EVE player I never had more tham half a dozen Instanjumps bookmarks (no patience/time) my life is a lot easy on EVE now. So why the fuzz ?

I did some PVP and I do recall as some of the most enjoyable experiences in EVE 3 things : blockade running in low sec systems while keeping an eye for any pirate (even if it only an imagined threat), trying to block someone/being blocked in a system and run to a gate/starbase with someone hot on my tail or persuing someone.

Well in my opinion this is another case of "everybody does it/likes it so lets make it official" as I play a lot of MMORPGs I know this is a common thing to happen, problem is sometimes the game looses edge (adreneline rushes...whatever) with that kind of changes, like game in wich death is not heavialy penalized.

About the lag, etc caused by the Intanjumps bookmarks, why not simple deleting them from say 30km arround starbases and gates and not letting make new ones ? That would keep the rush and kill that lag problem.

I was never a pirate in EVE (but lost more tham a ship to them) and dont intent on becoming one but anyway tell a newb how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ? :)

Thanks,


Be at the other side of the gate. Have scan probes, which are now super easy to use.

Problem solved.

Don't thank me, I'm just here pulling for the team.

JeanPierre
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:20:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: NightmareX
After the Warp To 0km went into TQ, i don't feel that i'm getting the action / danger i want as a pirate anylonger.

But that's just me.


Hit lowsec (0.1 - 0.4). People are looking for wrecks now to salvage. This will increase a bajillion fold after next Tuesday.

Hit lowsec complexes.

Go to belts.

Sit on the other side of a gate and rig for super fast lock.

And so on.

Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:28:00 - [163]
 

ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE FRIKEN COMBAT OR PIRATING.

Ndubs
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:29:00 - [164]
 

There is nothing I or anyone else can add to this thread that hasn't already been said by both sides of the argument. CCP are aware of the pro's and cons of warp to 0 and have nonetheless implemented it.

The likelihood of them rolling it back are slim. Especially after removing everyone's instas.

What I want to know is, where do CCP have a forum where they ask the question and then give everyone in the community a vote? At the end of the day, the pro warp to 0 guys have a fair argument in some respects, as do the anti warp to 0 people. In politics there is always more than one opinion so guess how we solve this issue. We vote on it?

Democracy. We're all paying customters in this game. Would have been nice to have seen a vote. It's the only way of satisfying the majority.

If I've missed this magical forum, let me know.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:30:00 - [165]
 

As several people already pointed out in this thread I don't think the pro-WTZ folks are really seeing our point. We (I) understand that it would be insanely boring to move 15 jumps in a slowboating BS or freighter in order to get to play with your mates. That's more or less the point we're trying to make. It's supposed to be boring, hence you don't do it.

Seen this way, EVE get's bigger (figuratively speaking) and local markets and corps really are local, i.e. they tend to stick to one or a few systems. If you plan to operate far from home, you'll have to make the logistical effort to move your stuff there and create a base of operations. This would also lead to alliances not being able to effectively hold entire regions (or, as is the case for some, several regions), but will be pressed to hold a constellation. This means more space in 0.0 for everyone, and more fighting and diplomacy as the super-powers get smaller and their influence lessens.

Warp-to-Zero is not just making combat more difficult for some (in fact it doesn't make combat more difficult for most), but it lessens the size of EVE, and buffs huge alliances claiming loads of space. This was the fact with instas as well, and I didn't much like them either.

I will be using WTZ as long as it's in the game as I don't want to be left behind by all those using it. That doesn't mean I like it as a feature and that I won't praise the day it is removed. Don't think it will though, as the uproar would be tremendous. However, I do think it will push the game further towards the brink of destruction, as it gets easier and more boring. Everyone might love WTZ now, as the only thing one notices are the pros. Hopefully, those same people, and CCP, will find, as I have, that the cons by far outweighs the pros in this case.

/Ki

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:35:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: BurnHard on 01/12/2006 15:37:25
Originally by: Ki An
It's supposed to be boring, hence you don't do it.


Well that really wasn't the point of making it that way, although that was the end result.

Originally by: Ki An

Seen this way, EVE get's bigger (figuratively speaking) and local markets and corps really are local, i.e. they tend to stick to one or a few systems.



But the evidence of your own eyes shows this isn't the case. Don't forget there was a time before instas were widely used and before WTZ was implemented (err, like the other day) when all the evidence showed quite the opposite. You don't have more or less players doing anything, you just have more or less players losing the will to live. IMHO, the real world is a better place in Eve playing households all over the world ;).

Originally by: Ki An

Warp-to-Zero is not just making combat more difficult for some (in fact it doesn't make combat more difficult for most), but it lessens the size of EVE, and buffs huge alliances claiming loads of space. This was the fact with instas as well, and I didn't much like them either.


....and CCP, will find, as I have, that the cons by far outweighs the pros in this case.



Yes, think of it as a gameplay experiment.

JeanPierre
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:37:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Varis
ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE FRIKEN COMBAT OR PIRATING.


Well no, you're quite right. There is this:

Quote:
I did some PVP and I do recall as some of the most enjoyable experiences in EVE 3 things : blockade running in low sec systems while keeping an eye for any pirate (even if it only an imagined threat), trying to block someone/being blocked in a system and run to a gate/starbase with someone hot on my tail or persuing someone.


Though I've noticed, everybody is still able to set their default to 20km and garner all of those experiences if they still choose to do so, all on their own.

Now of course, there's also the BM ordeal, which was causing EVE to have just horrible DB problems, contributing I'd wager to a lot of lag, which WTZ has now solved (once people delete their bm's, which a lot are doing I hear, myself included).

But, wait, "I...I hated BM's too! I hate WTZ! In fact, I hate anything which stops me from spending as much time doing nothing in the game as possible!" Well, what can I say? CCP understood that BM's were here to stay as they were being used, but couldn't deal with the database issues. Rather than risk everybody throwing away their subscriptions, since the vast majority of people used BM's regularly in day to day ops to overcome the Uber Slowness factor of the game, they introduced a compromise, WTZ. if your complaint is that you hated BM's and now WTZ, well, then you're simply tilting at windmills. Deal with it.


There are good reasons to complain and note imbalances and issues with any game. Griping because you don't like an accepted game mechanic, that the company itself not only didn't eliminate but introduced an alternate method of achieving, seems such a waste of energy.

Let's face it though. You guys would complain about the weather on a beautiful sunny spring day.

Thomas Maleficus
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:43:00 - [168]
 

To be honest, when I moved my ship (battleship) I set destination and afk'd, now if I want to get there fast I can use warp to 0, however for long trips ie 10 or more jumps, it's a pain to sit there and warp to 0 the whole way and boring as all hell, when I had instas I still didn't bother. Travelling to fetch somthing meant taking an atron set up for speed and most cases it was easier to autopilot and just hit the MWD at 15km off the gate and still is easier than using instas or warp to 0. The only thing that warp to 0 does is give an illusion of safety when travelling through low sec. Before I left 0.0 most of the kills we got on gate camps were people gating into the system. I think in time, this issue won't matter, gate campers will still get their kills, and long trips will still be afk'd. In the past two days I've seen people slow boating at nearly every gate I go past. You can't tell me it's practical to use WT0 all the time.

JeanPierre
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:52:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Ki An
As several people already pointed out in this thread I don't think the pro-WTZ folks are really seeing our point. We (I) understand that it would be insanely boring to move 15 jumps in a slowboating BS or freighter in order to get to play with your mates. That's more or less the point we're trying to make. It's supposed to be boring, hence you don't do it.


So the point of a MMORPG is to discourage friends from interacting online? Got it.

Quote:
Seen this way, EVE get's bigger (figuratively speaking) and local markets and corps really are local, i.e. they tend to stick to one or a few systems. If you plan to operate far from home, you'll have to make the logistical effort to move your stuff there and create a base of operations. This would also lead to alliances not being able to effectively hold entire regions (or, as is the case for some, several regions), but will be pressed to hold a constellation. This means more space in 0.0 for everyone, and more fighting and diplomacy as the super-powers get smaller and their influence lessens.


Your vision of 30,000 years in the future is one of pre-industrial European guilds working locally their entire lives, with those who go to, say, China being the one so out of sync that we know their name?

If a technology is so advanced as to make a ship stop exactly 15km outside of a station or gate, each and every time it's used, then it's advanced enough to stop right as it's on top of something as well.

Quote:
Warp-to-Zero is not just making combat more difficult for some (in fact it doesn't make combat more difficult for most), but it lessens the size of EVE, and buffs huge alliances claiming loads of space. This was the fact with instas as well, and I didn't much like them either.


If it buffs huge alliances, it also buffs invaders of said alliance territory. Easier to get a fleet up there to invade, after all. You're only seeing one side of the coin, the down side.

Quote:
I will be using WTZ as long as it's in the game as I don't want to be left behind by all those using it.


Which means that while you protest, you too see the advantages. Not using WTZ in no way leaves you behind. The deals will still be there if that's what you're going for, probably even better deals if you take your time with Warp To 20km enabled and the market drives down prices further. Hey bro, it's a win win for you if you go slower.

Quote:
Don't think it will though, as the uproar would be tremendous. However, I do think it will push the game further towards the brink of destruction, as it gets easier and more boring.


You obviously haven't sat on the receiving end of an Ice Miner before. There is no danger of major boredom diappearing in this game, if you wish to pay to be majorly bored.

And to your "easier and more boring", I would like to point out that GuildWars, which has the easiest far point travel system ever devised, is doing quite well. You're being overly dramatic, methinks.

Quote:
Everyone might love WTZ now, as the only thing one notices are the pros. Hopefully, those same people, and CCP, will find, as I have, that the cons by far outweighs the pros in this case.


The cons are in your head only, at least judging by the content of this post.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 15:57:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: JeanPierre

Now of course, there's also the BM ordeal, which was causing EVE to have just horrible DB problems, contributing I'd wager to a lot of lag, which WTZ has now solved (once people delete their bm's, which a lot are doing I hear, myself included).



As already stated, this would be achieved with our suggestion as well, so the argument kind of fails, don't you think?

Originally by: JeanPierre

But, wait, "I...I hated BM's too! I hate WTZ! In fact, I hate anything which stops me from spending as much time doing nothing in the game as possible!"



Not quite. I like to be able to do anything in EVE. I don't like the ability to do everything though, especially at the same time. I think the game would be a lot better if distance actually meant something. Today it's "30 jumps? Sure, I'll be there in 15".

Let me give you an example of what I want: Picture an alliance claiming space in 0.0. Today they camp the entrance(s) to their region and hold countless systems while using but a few. To be able to claim large amounts of space in the game as I picture it, you'de have to have logistics to keep up. Perhaps a POS in every critical system which is used as a forward base of operations. Then you'de have a dedicated defence force who rotates in this system, and not a bunch of people thinking "Well, I don't feel like ratting today, I'll go camp the gate".

The game swings more in the direction of organization and team-building, and away from "Insta-fun the moment I log on". I always felt this was EVE's strong-point, which set it apart from every other MMO. Logistics and organization should play a large part in EVE life for an aspiring corp. To me this is fun. I guess to a lot others it seem like working, but I think it's fun. Hence, it's what I want and what I argue for. Much like you argue for what you want.

Originally by: JeanPierre

Well, what can I say? CCP understood that BM's were here to stay as they were being used, but couldn't deal with the database issues. Rather than risk everybody throwing away their subscriptions, since the vast majority of people used BM's regularly in day to day ops to overcome the Uber Slowness factor of the game, they introduced a compromise, WTZ.



While this may be true, it really shows that CCP are afraid of sticking to their initial vision for the game. They designed it to be, as you say, "uber slow", and are now, by means of circumventing game-mechanics with the introduction of others, changing it to be "uber fast". That's what I, and many others, are questioning. We liked the original vision.

Originally by: JeanPierre

if your complaint is that you hated BM's and now WTZ, well, then you're simply tilting at windmills. Deal with it.



We are dealing with it. You are reading about us dealing with it right now. We use it in game, and we argue against it on the forums. That's how we deal with it.

Originally by: JeanPierre

There are good reasons to complain and note imbalances and issues with any game. Griping because you don't like an accepted game mechanic, that the company itself not only didn't eliminate but introduced an alternate method of achieving, seems such a waste of energy.



I'd say that if you wine long and hard enough you get your way. WTZ proves that. Wink

Originally by: JeanPierre

Let's face it though. You guys would complain about the weather on a beautiful sunny spring day.


As I am a rain-lover, yes.

/Ki

JeanPierre
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:10:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: JeanPierre

Now of course, there's also the BM ordeal, which was causing EVE to have just horrible DB problems, contributing I'd wager to a lot of lag, which WTZ has now solved (once people delete their bm's, which a lot are doing I hear, myself included).

As already stated, this would be achieved with our suggestion as well, so the argument kind of fails, don't you think?


Well true, that's right. It would solve that problem, and when the servers all get shut off because nobody is playing any longer, folks could pat themselves on the back at their good work. heh

Quote:
Not quite. I like to be able to do anything in EVE. I don't like the ability to do everything though, especially at the same time. I think the game would be a lot better if distance actually meant something. Today it's "30 jumps? Sure, I'll be there in 15".

Let me give you an example of what I want: Picture an alliance claiming space in 0.0. Today they camp the entrance(s) to their region and hold countless systems while using but a few. To be able to claim large amounts of space in the game as I picture it, you'de have to have logistics to keep up. Perhaps a POS in every critical system which is used as a forward base of operations. Then you'de have a dedicated defence force who rotates in this system, and not a bunch of people thinking "Well, I don't feel like ratting today, I'll go camp the gate".

The game swings more in the direction of organization and team-building, and away from "Insta-fun the moment I log on". I always felt this was EVE's strong-point, which set it apart from every other MMO. Logistics and organization should play a large part in EVE life for an aspiring corp. To me this is fun. I guess to a lot others it seem like working, but I think it's fun. Hence, it's what I want and what I argue for. Much like you argue for what you want.


I think the issue of alliance territory claims is a concern, don't get me wrong. I think that could be handled by a more Lockean view of property rights being implemented rather than limiting a pre-existing game mechanic. In effect though, your suggestion about POS(s) in every system to claim sovereignty ONLY in those systems, is a good one.


Quote:
While this may be true, it really shows that CCP are afraid of sticking to their initial vision for the game. They designed it to be, as you say, "uber slow", and are now, by means of circumventing game-mechanics with the introduction of others, changing it to be "uber fast". That's what I, and many others, are questioning. We liked the original vision.


I was here for the original version. It may sound all nostalgic now, but at the time, if we take a journey to then in our Way Back Machine, many people were absolutely miffed at the slowness of it. CCP made an executive call - speed it up some, or perish.

Quote:
We are dealing with it. You are reading about us dealing with it right now. We use it in game, and we argue against it on the forums. That's how we deal with it.


Well, you're certainly free to do so, without a doubt. My take is, you may as well complain about Amarr ships having gold skins on them.

Quote:
I'd say that if you wine long and hard enough you get your way. WTZ proves that. Wink


WTZ, I think, wasn't due to whining. Not to say people didn't whine. It was due to database issues that CCP needed to solve, without alienating the vast majority of its player base. Shoot, I never whined for it, didn't even consider it an option. I'm glad it's here, but don't recall jockeying for it whatsoever.

Originally by: JeanPierre

Let's face it though. You guys would complain about the weather on a beautiful sunny spring day.

As I am a rain-lover, yes.


See?

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:14:00 - [172]
 

in order for the game world to contain everyone, it needs to be able to contain roles for them all to choose as they will. If there are just 1 or 2 hubs, the number of people that can perform roles is drastically reduced. Seriously, this is a VERY big issue and not one that is easily sumed up, and is way beyond "its better for me because I don't have to do X". This is about everyone that plays the game.


p.s. Just as a side note, I just realised, due to WTZ, speed bonus' on indys and other slow moving/aligning ships are now purely a penalty and not a bonus!!!! Laughing

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:15:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Ki An

Not quite. I like to be able to do anything in EVE. I don't like the ability to do everything though, especially at the same time. I think the game would be a lot better if distance actually meant something. Today it's "30 jumps? Sure, I'll be there in 15".



You don't prefer a richer more intense experience? You have too much spare time.....

Originally by: Ki An

Let me give you an example of what I want: Picture an alliance claiming space in 0.0. Today they camp the entrance(s) to their region and hold countless systems while using but a few. To be able to claim large amounts of space in the game as I picture it, you'de have to have logistics to keep up. Perhaps a POS in every critical system which is used as a forward base of operations. Then you'de have a dedicated defence force who rotates in this system, and not a bunch of people thinking "Well, I don't feel like ratting today, I'll go camp the gate".



Well two things here. 0.0 would be pretty much dead (more dead) if you had your way. I mean really dead. Like, uninhabited (relatively). At the moment, some regions in 0.0 are pretty busy and there are many thousands of Alliance players in system. The reason for this is mostly that the risks v reward or effort v reward is balanced enough for them to be there and of course one of the variables involved there is travel time/travel safety (bookmarks).

Originally by: Ki An

While this may be true, it really shows that CCP are afraid of sticking to their initial vision for the game. They designed it to be, as you say, "uber slow", and are now, by means of circumventing game-mechanics with the introduction of others, changing it to be "uber fast". That's what I, and many others, are questioning. We liked the original vision.



No they didn't. Their original vision for the game was without warp to 15km. It was introduced because there were no zones of interaction. No place for people to meet and get ganked. 15km was hardly game vision territory, more sticking plaster territory. Of course now we have warp bubbles, system scanning, interdiction. It's a whole different game from that perspective. The original vision was certainly not lets make the game very slow and very boring, we want as many labotomy patients to sign-up as possible.



Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:16:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: JeanPierre
stuff


It's seems our argument lies in wether people would quit if WTZ/Instas where removed or not. You're saying they would, I'd say not everyone, but probably quite a few. This is why I don't think WTZ will get removed. Doesn't stop me from proclaiming my view though, as I would love it if it was removed. I understand CCPs call in this question, but I do think they're not true to their roots.

Hopefully something will get done about the side-effects of WTZ/Instas now that it's here to stay. Right now, it's dumbing down the game. It can be fixed without removing WTZ/Instas, but it will take a lot of work. Perhaps our whining will open some eyes at CCP.

Anyway, I know this is a lost cause, but if I can convert but a few people I feel my work is done.

/Ki

Xurx
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:19:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: Xurx on 01/12/2006 16:21:14
It's there, it's not going anywhere, live with it, or just quit....

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:19:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: BurnHard

No they didn't. Their original vision for the game was without warp to 15km. It was introduced because there were no zones of interaction. No place for people to meet and get ganked. 15km was hardly game vision territory, more sticking plaster territory. Of course now we have warp bubbles, system scanning, interdiction. It's a whole different game from that perspective. The original vision was certainly not lets make the game very slow and very boring, we want as many labotomy patients to sign-up as possible.



So now they remove those zones of interaction again? Apart from bubble-camps in 0.0 that is. That's the interaction we'll have then? Seems kind of strange reasoning to me.

/Ki

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:21:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
in order for the game world to contain everyone, it needs to be able to contain roles for them all to choose as they will. If there are just 1 or 2 hubs, the number of people that can perform roles is drastically reduced. Seriously, this is a VERY big issue and not one that is easily sumed up, and is way beyond "its better for me because I don't have to do X". This is about everyone that plays the game.



I can think of 3 hubs off the top of my head that I use regularly: Jita, Rens and Amarr. The latter two are more like big towns. Jita is a City. It will always be that way - people will always prefer to congregate in one place (if possible). They don't factor in your vision of regional separation when they decide to do what is economically in their own best interests. You can't change that unless you set limits on numbers and/or introduce penalties for just being there. No amount of WTX will make a difference. Remove highways, add highways, whatever, you will just change the centroid, not remove it because you aren't changing behaviour.

Originally by: Sable Schroedinger

p.s. Just as a side note, I just realised, due to WTZ, speed bonus' on indys and other slow moving/aligning ships are now purely a penalty and not a bonus!!!! Laughing


Think of it this way, travelling in warp between two points is a warp speed issue, there the efficiency of your warp engines count. Travelling under impulse/ordinary engines between two points is an impulse speed issue, there the efficiency of your normal engines counts.


BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:22:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: BurnHard

No they didn't. Their original vision for the game was without warp to 15km. It was introduced because there were no zones of interaction. No place for people to meet and get ganked. 15km was hardly game vision territory, more sticking plaster territory. Of course now we have warp bubbles, system scanning, interdiction. It's a whole different game from that perspective. The original vision was certainly not lets make the game very slow and very boring, we want as many labotomy patients to sign-up as possible.



So now they remove those zones of interaction again? Apart from bubble-camps in 0.0 that is. That's the interaction we'll have then? Seems kind of strange reasoning to me.

/Ki



You have gained opportunities for interaction - being able to catch mission runners with scanning, large bubbles, WCS nerf for instance.

JeanPierre
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:23:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: JeanPierre
stuff


It's seems our argument lies in wether people would quit if WTZ/Instas where removed or not. You're saying they would, I'd say not everyone, but probably quite a few. This is why I don't think WTZ will get removed. Doesn't stop me from proclaiming my view though, as I would love it if it was removed. I understand CCPs call in this question, but I do think they're not true to their roots.

Hopefully something will get done about the side-effects of WTZ/Instas now that it's here to stay. Right now, it's dumbing down the game. It can be fixed without removing WTZ/Instas, but it will take a lot of work. Perhaps our whining will open some eyes at CCP.

Anyway, I know this is a lost cause, but if I can convert but a few people I feel my work is done.

/Ki



This simply sounds like a moment of opportunity to me. If the big issue is major commerce hubs being horribly clogged, then get an alliance together (or their Empire wing) and start a hub somewhere else, and compete with the prices in the existing hub(s). The more people do this, the less congestion in just one area.

The original vision was actually warp to gate, by the way. The original vision was not "die a slow death of waiting". You still have bubbles and dictors, you can still gank when somebody comes through a gate with a competent gang, and you have the ability to actually affect the market and make a killing in the process. Very little has changed with WTZ that cannot be corrected through a natural balancing process of player interaction. It will, give it time.

Btw, good to have a forum discussion with somebody not out to call names or flame. Very Happy

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 16:29:00 - [180]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
p.s. Just as a side note, I just realised, due to WTZ, speed bonus' on indys and other slow moving/aligning ships are now purely a penalty and not a bonus!!!! Laughing




Think of it this way, travelling in warp between two points is a warp speed issue, there the efficiency of your warp engines count. Travelling under impulse/ordinary engines between two points is an impulse speed issue, there the efficiency of your normal engines counts.



forgive me for being dim, but eh?!!Confused


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