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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.01 08:57:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Baleine4Nerver
I dont understand all the people against WTZ.. everyone had BMS.

If i was moving to a new region I would either BM it out or buy them.

Everyone does.. WTZ is brilliant for gameplay.

get your enemies on the other side.. or get a bubble, low sec gate snipers... boo hoo.


Game was playable because not everyone had instas. Game will be unplayable because everyone has instas. If you had fought people who had instas pre-Kali, you would notice the game was broken.

WTZ is a political issue. CCP dares not remove BMs without WTZ. The cry on the playerbase would be like the cloak bug in Dragon. I blame WTZ on players.

WTZ is not a game mechanic. WTZ is a ghey mechanic.

Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:04:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Thor Xian on 01/12/2006 09:06:52
Nobody who supports WTZ has been able to come up with a good reason to keep the ability, regardless of what form it takes. All I ever see are selfish reasons, circular logic about it being inevitable, and proWTZ crowd calling the antiWTZ crowd gatecamping pirates.

Calling me a gate camper is an insult. But I have one for you too: Instahead. Basically 'crackhead' cept with a different drug.

Instaheads have been whining since the onset about anything that threatens their addiction and have been for years. Yes, the instaheads are the whiners, not anyone who wants instas and WTZ both dead.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:05:00 - [123]
 

"i can't stand warp to 0km."


HEre is the cool part if you hate it then simply choose warp to 15 km... easy solution.

Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:10:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
"i can't stand warp to 0km."


HEre is the cool part if you hate it then simply choose warp to 15 km... easy solution.


That's like telling someone who wants a Permadeath game to simply delete their char when it dies.

It was a silly statement then too.

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:12:00 - [125]
 

"Nobody who supports WTZ has been able to come up with a good reason to keep the ability, regardless of what form it takes. All I ever see are selfish reasons, circular logic about it being inevitable, and proWTZ crowd calling the nonWTZ gatecamping pirates."


Sure they have you just refuse to listen.

1) improves abilty to cut time traveling in eve which is slow boring and tends to keep people living at the same station

2) due to ease of traveling more people are will to commute to meet people and play together, before if i had 25 jumps in my BS to meet up and play with someone else but i had only 2 hours to play forget it that was the entire time i had to play by just traveling there....

3) WTZ helps to cut down on what is currently a very lame tactic which is camping gates, essentially spawn camping, it will also help mitigate the exploiting of game mechanics when people suicide ganked in high sec.

4) WTZ will help server performance. Win for EVERYONE.

5) WTZ speeds up travel to encourage people to try new regions, and also new security rated zones.

6) WTZ removes the nonesense that was bookmark created and copying, hey if you liked doing that the cool thing is you can still make your own BM;s anyways....


One legit downside was finally mentioned in this thread however, you will get this more emmpty feeling in space as people simply pop gate to gate etc, where as before you saw ships towing in to the gate helped give the universe a bit more sense of fullness.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:15:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Sable Schroedinger on 01/12/2006 09:16:17
What the hell happened to the reasoned and well considered thread that began here?!!!

If you think the answer either side is easy, then you're missing the point!! There is a very deep social-economic point being made here about WTZ. Camps and gates aren't really an issue. Its been handled already, let it go! If you can't get your head around the bigger picture here, please read the entire thread. If you still don't get it, ask a well reasoned question. Heckling from the peanut gallery is just making you look silly

edit for spelling

Svart Szchpritzenfeuerer
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:16:00 - [127]
 

Quote:
how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ?


Civilization > piracy. Check it out, way way way back on 21st century Earth... much of the high seas were totally free of pirates. It was simply more efficient to abide by the regulations.

Why should there be room for pirates at all? Particularly in empire. Don't even get me started on why they are given access to insurance and clones. They shouldn't be. ANY sensible society would ostracise them in a manner which made their lives forfeit, but not Eve, ohhh no, we must have pirates! It's preposterous, if they want to support these people, they need proper pirate-insurance corps, clones etc. (tho it seems a contradiction in terms), who would probably charge them to high heaven.

It is much more logical that empires support the merchants so that they become more wealthy and then benefit the empires more with their trading.

Piracy is just out-of-date. It's 1700s on high seas carribean, sorry kids.

Noriath
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:20:00 - [128]
 

The game was playable because not everyone had instas? What is that supposed to mean? That the only thing that made the game playable was the fact that noobs had to either spend a week straight copying bookmark sets or suck at PvP forever?

This change doesn't acctually make anything worse, all the people who really deserved to get killed at a gate had bookmarks anyways.

Besides, the whole gatecamping mechanic in Eve is lame, to make that harder is only right. That pirating is taking a major hit from this is not the fault of zerowarp, but the fault of the fact that lowsec and empire piracy was always just based on killing people at gates they can't possibly avoid and thereby racking up kills on mostly noobs and ill prepared people, not the acctual fat targets pirates are really looking for.

Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:21:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Sure they have you just refuse to listen.


Okay, I'll humor you.

Quote:
1) improves abilty to cut time traveling in eve which is slow boring and tends to keep people living at the same station


This is only true if you insist on traveling in the biggest possible ship. I travel in an Interceptor for a reason.

Quote:
2) due to ease of traveling more people are will to commute to meet people and play together, before if i had 25 jumps in my BS to meet up and play with someone else but i had only 2 hours to play forget it that was the entire time i had to play by just traveling there....


One word, Jita. And why would you go 25 jumps in a BS at all?

Quote:
3) WTZ helps to cut down on what is currently a very lame tactic which is camping gates, essentially spawn camping, it will also help mitigate the exploiting of game mechanics when people suicide ganked in high sec.


Gate camping is lame, but WTZ is not the fix. Suicide ganking in hi sec is perfectly legit.

Quote:
4) WTZ will help server performance. Win for EVERYONE.


Actually, if you want to be entirely accurate, WTZ will hurt performance, just not nearly as bad as instas did.

Quote:
5) WTZ speeds up travel to encourage people to try new regions, and also new security rated zones.


I didn't need WTZ to explore and grow a pair of balls...why would anyone else?

Quote:
6) WTZ removes the nonesense that was bookmark created and copying, hey if you liked doing that the cool thing is you can still make your own BM;s anyways....


The solution is not much better than the problem in this case. Instas should have been killed from the start.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:28:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

1) improves abilty to cut time traveling in eve which is slow boring and tends to keep people living at the same station



Just thought I'd pick up on this one. Why exactly do you need to be travelling? There's only small fractions of EVE that only exist in a single area. To my knowledge _everywhere_ in empire has all the minerals available, and most of the blueprints. It's quite easy to 'set up' your corporate operations pretty much anywhere.

Of course, at the moment, you have to go the 10 jumps to Jita if you operate in Citadel. But that's nothing to do with availability of the raw materials. Having a 'local area' IMO is one of the best things about EVE. Knowing your neighbours.

Quote:

2) due to ease of traveling more people are will to commute to meet people and play together, before if i had 25 jumps in my BS to meet up and play with someone else but i had only 2 hours to play forget it that was the entire time i had to play by just traveling there....



OK, that's true. It does make moving your BS 25 jumps harder. Personally I feel this is a good thing.

Just to extend the example to the extreme, if travel times are bad, why not implement an instant teleporter. Type in the system you want to go to, and it just jump bridges you there instantly. This would _drastically_ reduce transit times, and make everyone in EVE much safer?

I will say now, I find EVE an awful lot easier with instas. I also think that 'easy mode' is also not good for a game, especially one of this nature.

Quote:

3) WTZ helps to cut down on what is currently a very lame tactic which is camping gates, essentially spawn camping, it will also help mitigate the exploiting of game mechanics when people suicide ganked in high sec.



No, it doesn't I'm afraid. If you assume you've got a portion of the EVE community who will always 'pirate', then by reducing the number of options available to them to:
Sit on a gate with a fast locking ship and/or a bubble.
Try and jump people in a belt, and hope they don't notice and instadock.

Quote:

4) WTZ will help server performance. Win for EVERYONE.



No, removing bookmarks improves server performance. Warp to zero has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

5) WTZ speeds up travel to encourage people to try new regions, and also new security rated zones.



Have you tried exploring in a 'ceptor or covert? They're fast, agile and virtually invulnerable. Even a MWD frigate is pretty quick. Or are you talking about flying battleships out into deep 0.0 with minimal risk?

Quote:

6) WTZ removes the nonesense that was bookmark created and copying, hey if you liked doing that the cool thing is you can still make your own BM;s anyways....



Preventing BMs around the gates, or hell just capping everyone at a max of 100 bookmarks would do this too. As would e.g. setting up an 'interdiction radius' around gate/station of 10km.

Sadly I think this argument is lost - Warp to Zero is here to stay. If it's going to be reversed at all, it will have to be soon, which is largely why I'm posting vocally now.

Jack Cromwell
Azure Horizon
Coalition Of Empires
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:38:00 - [131]
 

I've been playing for almost two years and the ability to warp to zero is fantastic and the only people who don't seem to like it are low sec gate camping pirates.

Its reduced the lag as people are no longer coping instas it makes it easier for us players to travel around which may well increase the number of players who make their way to low sec.

You can still gate camp even if it has become harder as your going to have concentrate on the ships who have just jumped though the gate.

Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:40:00 - [132]
 

I was just about to respond, but you beat me to it james.

there is a strong divide - those who want to just "get to the action and shoot" (who love wtz) and those who want the logistics/choices game (who hate it)

Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:43:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Jack Cromwell
I've been playing for almost two years and the ability to warp to zero is fantastic and the only people who don't seem to like it are low sec gate camping pirates.

Its reduced the lag as people are no longer coping instas it makes it easier for us players to travel around which may well increase the number of players who make their way to low sec.

You can still gate camp even if it has become harder as your going to have concentrate on the ships who have just jumped though the gate.


You are doing precisely what I said you do. Making a sweeping generalization that is not even remotely close to true.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:44:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo
Wahh waah waah.

Am I the only one who's noticed all the people complaining are the 15m+ sp characters who probably have full galaxy G2G bm sets.

The bm copying nerf was patently unfair on new characters who couldnt aquire sanely the 1000's of bookmarks that all the old characters had. And this fixes it.

Use some skill folks. You could catch folks using instas, and you can catch folks using wtz. After this long in the game SURELY its not that hard right? right?


no I have 1.2 mil SP not a single insta and I hated WTD.. and no i am not a pirate I am a pirate victim. now half the fun is gone


Gate camping is still there database lag also etc..

Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:45:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Varis
I was just about to respond, but you beat me to it james.

there is a strong divide - those who want to just "get to the action and shoot" (who love wtz) and those who want the logistics/choices game (who hate it)


I want Eve. And Eve is about consequences. WTZ takes the risk of consequences away. And it is far more involved than a simple unimportant gate camp.

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 09:46:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Thor Xian


Okay, I'll humor you.

......... all the rest of your stuff ........



I've always been in favor of warp to 0 (look back at the regular old threads going back three years or more with people like Avon arguing against it). It provides no extra safety whatsoever if you used bookmarks before (most people did of course). The main reason I like it so much is I'm no longer spending half of my play-time managing bookmarks or traveling. I can log-in and DO STUFF much more efficiently. This game is now an order of magnitude less tedious.

The above is just a game-play issue. Now look at the technical benefits: less bookmarks = less "active" objects alive on the server and an increase in performance. I have no idea how you can argue against them, unless you are having trouble adapting.




Thor Xian
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2006.12.01 10:00:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: BurnHard
The main reason I like it so much is I'm no longer spending half of my play-time managing bookmarks or traveling. I can log-in and DO STUFF much more efficiently. This game is now an order of magnitude less tedious.


It wasn't the game that caused this problem...it was how you played it.

I have no trouble adapting at all. I'm using WTZ as much or more than anyone.

Auldare
NailorTech Industries
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.12.01 10:03:00 - [138]
 

We wouldn't have a situation like Jita if there was no instas or WTZ.

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 10:21:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Thor Xian


It wasn't the game that caused this problem...it was how you played it.


This is where your argument falls over. If you want people to play the game in a certain way you have to implement game mechanics that restrict the player to that extent. You may make your game less fun to play by doing so, especially when the game supports many different kinds of play-style. Overall, I would say the large majority of players prefer this new system.

Both technically and in game-play terms, for most players the debate is over; for the rest some adaptation is required. Overall, it's an improvement and players like it.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.01 10:38:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: BurnHard
Originally by: Thor Xian


It wasn't the game that caused this problem...it was how you played it.


This is where your argument falls over. If you want people to play the game in a certain way you have to implement game mechanics that restrict the player to that extent. You may make your game less fun to play by doing so, especially when the game supports many different kinds of play-style. Overall, I would say the large majority of players prefer this new system.

Both technically and in game-play terms, for most players the debate is over; for the rest some adaptation is required. Overall, it's an improvement and players like it.



as far as i remember EVE was based on actions and consequences.

do you want to become a trader? you have to travel alot - it's an investment of time.

guess what - instas/WTZ allows you to be a missionrunner, a shipping agent, a trader .. all at the same time without much hassle.

you got a certain standing with one faction? (be it faction standings for missionrunners, security status for pirates) - the consequence: you're limited in travel as not every faction is pleased to see you entering their terretory.

guess what - instas/WTZ allow you to run through hostile empire terretory without much hassle - get a ceptor/frig i-stab it .. and go.


the question is not: how should people play this game.
the question is: should they face the consequences of their actions?

thx to WTZ the consequences got removed from the game.

das licht
Gallente
Echtzeit AG
Posted - 2006.12.01 10:45:00 - [141]
 

I love to see happy people. It always warms my heart, especially in december when christmas is around the corner.

Warp to 0 km is a great thang. Not just because it is great, but because it helps spreading the playerbase over the map.

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 10:53:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte


the question is not: how should people play this game.
the question is: should they face the consequences of their actions?

thx to WTZ the consequences got removed from the game.


The consequences of unforgiving, unbelievably tedious gameplay are the wasting of time, increasing frustration and lower subscriptions. Not only that but the consequences of the workaround (bookmarks) is much higher lag.

Now, you are free to think up some new consequences for the WTZ situation if you have the wit. To my mind warp to 7 (beta) and 15km was a sticking plaster over game-play mechanics that limited zones of interaction. It is simply a restriction that has been removed (a bit like eating prunes when you are constipated). The game is now more playable to anyone who doesn't sit at a gate 23/7.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 11:00:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: BurnHard
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte


the question is not: how should people play this game.
the question is: should they face the consequences of their actions?

thx to WTZ the consequences got removed from the game.


The consequences of unforgiving, unbelievably tedious gameplay are the wasting of time, increasing frustration and lower subscriptions. Not only that but the consequences of the workaround (bookmarks) is much higher lag.

Now, you are free to think up some new consequences for the WTZ situation if you have the wit. To my mind warp to 7 (beta) and 15km was a sticking plaster over game-play mechanics that limited zones of interaction. It is simply a restriction that has been removed (a bit like eating prunes when you are constipated). The game is now more playable to anyone who doesn't sit at a gate 23/7.



Fast travel promotes more travel. The only thing that causes 'hub centric' stuff in EVE, be it trade markets or 'alliance strongholds' is travel times. As the time it takes to travel 20 jumps increases, the amount of people prepared to make the journey decreases, leaving it the realm of the people who _actually_ want to do it.

And please, spare me? I don't sit on a gate 23/7, I have never pirated, and I'm not a hardcore PvPer.

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:05:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus

Fast travel promotes more travel.
...leaving it the realm of the people who _actually_ want to do it.


I have no idea what your point is, apart from to say that people will now be travelling more and that travelling more is bad because...????????????

Sir Drake
Caldari
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:09:00 - [145]
 

Ive read quite a few wild theories about what WT0 does (or will do) to EVE,
but what has actually changed for you personally?

Changes to economy due to WT0?
Too early to say i think.

Changes to PvP?
Tacklers get more important and warp bubbles will get used more (at least in 0.0).
I think the HP increase will have a much bigger impact than WT0 anyway.

Changes to travel?
I got rid of a few k of BMs and i dont have the bookmarks window opened anymore but thats about it.
Travelling is still the same for me, either AP to 15km or manuel WT0 (exactly like my instas befor).
If that helps getting rid of some lag Arrow great feature!


Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:14:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: BurnHard

I have no idea what your point is, apart from to say that people will now be travelling more and that travelling more is bad because...????????????


*more conjestion in "core" sytems
*less "small hubs", and more concentration of sellers in major systems - forcing even more travelling for anything
*Alliances claiming even MORE space as they can fly their fleets further, easier.
*Bigger gatecamps - as its the only way to stop insta-everything travellers.

should i go on?

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:25:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Varis

*more conjestion in "core" sytems
*less "small hubs", and more concentration of sellers in major systems - forcing even more travelling for anything
*Alliances claiming even MORE space as they can fly their fleets further, easier.
*Bigger gatecamps - as its the only way to stop insta-everything travellers.

should i go on?


I could equally argue the opposite to the "more congestion" point, given that people tend to group manufacture, processing and distribution operartions around major hubs because otherwise it would take half a day to travel there. Human Psychology: people will always come together to trade. There is nothing you can do to stop super-hub development apart from capping the number of players allowed on any given node. This has been true of Eve pretty much from the beginning. The Hub's just move when the effort required to get to them reaches a tipping point. They don't get any smaller (see removal of highways for a good example).

On your second point, alliances are generally more highly motivated than other groups of players - they will get to where they want to go regardless of WTZ. Either with sling-shot interceptors or instas. Some may also argue that this is threatening to large alliances, because small gangs can move around their space with greater ease.

On your final point (and related to the alliance security paragraph above), you have not noticed the WCS nerf and an extremely large deployable bubble included in the upgrade?

So, do you have any valid points to make about WTZ?






SamuelAdams
Gallente
Navy of Xoc
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:28:00 - [148]
 

One thing I think that a lot of the detractors are not realizing is that this warp to zero change creates a huge efficiency boost to the game.
I have a family and property to maintain so my Eve time is limited.
I dont need to watch my Domi take two minutes to approach a gate prior to jumping. Theres no value in it. And I still regret the time I spent copying instas.
Warp to zero gives me more time to play Eve.
How valuable is that?
Very Happy

BurnHard
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:29:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: SamuelAdams
One thing I think that a lot of the detractors are not realizing is that this warp to zero change creates a huge efficiency boost to the game.
I have a family and property to maintain so my Eve time is limited.
I dont need to watch my Domi take two minutes to approach a gate prior to jumping. Theres no value in it. And I still regret the time I spent copying instas.
Warp to zero gives me more time to play Eve.
How valuable is that?
Very Happy


Exactly - one of the major reasons I reactivated my subscription ugh.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.12.01 12:31:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: BurnHard
Originally by: Varis

*more conjestion in "core" sytems
*less "small hubs", and more concentration of sellers in major systems - forcing even more travelling for anything
*Alliances claiming even MORE space as they can fly their fleets further, easier.
*Bigger gatecamps - as its the only way to stop insta-everything travellers.

should i go on?


I could equally argue the opposite to the "more congestion" point, given that people tend to group manufacture, processing and distribution operartions around major hubs because otherwise it would take half a day to travel there. Human Psychology: people will always come together to trade. There is nothing you can do to stop super-hub development apart from capping the number of players allowed on any given node. This has been true of Eve pretty much from the beginning. The Hub's just move when the effort required to get to them reaches a tipping point. They don't get any smaller (see removal of highways for a good example).




ok .. if people are only willing to move 5jumps instead of 15jumps because of the added traveltime?

what will happen - will they all fly to the suber-hub 15jumps away? or are they maybe looking for a trade-hub close to them?

if they look for a hub next door this means - this hub caters less space/systems/people, as you won't have people from 30jumps away buying in this hub.in the end there will be a smaller hub with a local market with local prices - and less lag for the people in the hub.


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