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Tiree
Amarr
Kinetic Vector
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:45:00 - [61]
 

If you need to travel 15km to a gate everytime, 0.0 will be almost impossible to travel through. If travel time is the biggest objection then why not suggest making warp speeds dependant on mass? Frigates would be able to arrive before cruiser, cruiser before BS etc. You could make it so that using a freighter between regions would be less attractive, while still keeping the ability to WTZ without the use of BM's.

Ghoest
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:55:00 - [62]
 

Instas were bad in many ways not just lag.


Getting rid of instas makes warp to 0 well woth putting up with.

Paladineguru
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:58:00 - [63]
 

so basically after three pages you got 2-4 people going

WAAAa WWAAAAAAA we cant kill anything cause our brains are slow WAAAAAAAAAH

the other sixty are either part of the omg ur an idiot and it changes nothing, or the suck it up and adapt crowd

its here , most wanted it, it most likely wont get changed back for lack of a better solution for all of us that doesnt include yet more must have skills or mods,

its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:00:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Wild Rho on 30/11/2006 14:05:56
Originally by: Marquan Reflex
Originally by: Wild Rho


EDIT: typo goblins struck again.


hehehe okie dokie lil duckie musta had the bandana on too tight again eh?


.....Embarassed.....

Originally by: Paladineguru

WAAAa WWAAAAAAA we cant kill anything cause our brains are slow WAAAAAAAAAH



I'd love you to point out where I said that. Making an argument isn't automatically whining.

Deidranna
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:02:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Waut
Eventually everyone had instas anyway so whats the point?


so true.
had/have about 6000 bookmarks, only gtg.
+ countless safes in a lot of systems :)
being able to delete them made me fell warm'n stuff
so pls stop whining
warp to 0 is the best ever implemented "feature"

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:02:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Paladineguru

its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.


i can assure you - i won't have a problem to figure out how to camp the other side of the gate.

but i have a problem if "camping the other side of the gate (or better: camping a gate at all)" is the only way to enforce non-consensual PvP.

i'm not playing EVE for camping gates, i'm playing EVE for the chase and the hunt. Wink

Jessica May
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:07:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

i'm not playing EVE for camping gates, i'm playing EVE for the chase and the hunt. Wink


I'm not into the PvP side of EVE but I must say that is the most common sense, logical and 'I want to work for my kills' post I've come across. A breath of fresh air!

Zolofine
Rico's Roughnecks
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:10:00 - [68]
 

Personally, i love it. It saves me lots of time where i'm actually 'playing' and not just approaching gates which is about as exciting and fun as waiting in line for the dentist.

I don't personally find myself in the seat of a cargoship all that often, but i don't really see that it's a problem. Every decent cargoship pilot has instas along his route or a scout if the territory is treacherous. Warp to 0 changes nothing in this aspect, only replaces the instas which is the point.

So what purpose does speed serve in cargoships? A lot imho. When you uncloak and make your run it could mean the difference between life and death. When you warp into a bubble, it could mean the difference between life and death. The purpose of 'fast' cargorigs has somewhat changed, but it hasn't been nullified imho. Speed mods on a cargoship isn't very useful anyways since it takes away from your cargo and hull mods still serve a purpose as they allow you to speed up for warp faster.

Furthermore i find it an appealing change from a logical point of view. To me ther eis nothing logical about a ship that can 'warp' at FTL speeds but needs 5 minutes to travel 15km. There is also nothing logical about a ship that can calculate a warp to drop out of it exactly at 15km from a point, but not exactly onto it. For me the warp to 0 is one of the better changes EVE has known. It makes sense, it saves time and adds to the overal 'speed' of the game, it makes trivial things a bit easier and the sacrifices are small.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:12:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Tiree
If you need to travel 15km to a gate everytime, 0.0 will be almost impossible to travel through. If travel time is the biggest objection then why not suggest making warp speeds dependant on mass? Frigates would be able to arrive before cruiser, cruiser before BS etc. You could make it so that using a freighter between regions would be less attractive, while still keeping the ability to WTZ without the use of BM's.


I'm sorry, you are entirely incorrect. I spent 3 months running a 5 POS chain, in MKD-08 and onwards. You can look it up on the map - it's about 12 jumps from the nearest station, and 10 or so out of empire, through a chokepoint.

I did this without instas in a badger MK II, although I did later upgrade to a bustard and crane, once I could fly them.

I made ferrogel, and hauled about 100k m3/week, albeit assisted by corpmates.

I lost a few haulers, yes. Not many, but a few. The _only_ reason I stopped is because it wasn't competitive to try and do this when 'everyone else' was using fully expanded iteron 5s.

The other annoyance was dodging a camp (it really isn't impossible) only to find that the battleship insta'ed past me and tried again all the rest of the way.

If everyone had the same limitations, I would quite happily go back to using warp to 15. About the _only_ think that might need a look at that point is freighters, since I think they were 'balanced' with instas in mind.

Saladin
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:25:00 - [70]
 

The OP is completely incorrect. Camping is still possible, and pirates can catch people jumping into the system. If they believe someone is carrying something expensive they can jump after him. Before warp to 0 there was a possibility to catch targets travelling both ways through the gate with minimal effort. Now the minimal effort is associated only with inbound traffic (jumping into the camped system at the camped gate). To catch outbound traffic they have to jump through. Well why dont they jump through? Oh thats right, its because they like to engage at the cowardly range of 250+km, beyond sentries and beyond locking range of most people. Well now if you want the ability to camp two way traffic you need get close and fight like a man, not like a little *****. Grow up and adapt and stop these whines that are preceded by "i've been playing since beta.." to add some sort of legitimacy.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:28:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 30/11/2006 14:31:24

saladin

the problem is NOT that camping is now impossible (it's far from it) ..
the problem is ANYTHING ELSE than camping is now (allmost) impossible.

(that's my reason why i'm against WTZ)

edit: i know - belt piracy is still possible, maybe a bit harder if the targets tries to run as it can insta out/instadock from every point in a system, but i'm mainly talking about travel-piracy.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 14:35:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Paladineguru
so basically after three pages you got 2-4 people going

WAAAa WWAAAAAAA we cant kill anything cause our brains are slow WAAAAAAAAAH

the other sixty are either part of the omg ur an idiot and it changes nothing, or the suck it up and adapt crowd

its here , most wanted it, it most likely wont get changed back for lack of a better solution for all of us that doesnt include yet more must have skills or mods,

its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.


nice to know you actually read the thread before posting Rolling Eyes

Paladineguru
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:00:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Paladineguru on 30/11/2006 15:00:56
Edited by: Paladineguru on 30/11/2006 15:00:13
Actually I did sable

and then i promptly felt better knowing that WTZ would stay forever
JUST because jericho had taken to beating this dead horse

course yall are suckers for failing side of an argument
because it provides opportunity to try to prove your some kind of intellectual giantRolling Eyes

Remember the freespace arguement-- hows that working out since ccp put in sovereigntyLaughingLaughingLaughing

Becham
Infestation.
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:05:00 - [74]
 

I wonder if this debate went on when railroads were being built about how faster travel times were going to destroy markets and make it too hard for bandits to steal from merchants and travelers.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:06:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Paladineguru
Edited by: Paladineguru on 30/11/2006 15:00:56
Edited by: Paladineguru on 30/11/2006 15:00:13
Actually I did sable

and then i promptly felt better knowing that WTZ would stay forever
JUST because jericho had taken to beating this dead horse

course yall are suckers for failing side of an argument
because it provides opportunity to try to prove your some kind of intellectual giantRolling Eyes

Remember the freespace arguement-- hows that working out since ccp put in sovereigntyLaughingLaughingLaughing


Oddly enough, most of the people I've spoken to in JF like WTZ. I'm in a minority within the corp for disliking it.

As for having read the thread, by the conclusions you've drawn its blatantly obvious that you haven't and no amount of cheap and bitter freespace jibes are going to cover for that.

Oddly enough, most of the people I've spoken to in JF like WTZ. I'm in a minority within the corp for disliking it.

As for having read the thread, by the conclusions you've drawn its blatantly obvious that you haven't and no amount of cheap and bitter freespace jibes are going to cover for that.

If you want to stop us sounding "oh so intellectual", grow some stones, read discussions placed before you and comment on their merit or flaws as you see them in a considered fashion. Spitting out the first inane jibe that leaps to mind is just going to make you look daft, our intension or not.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:07:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Becham
I wonder if this debate went on when railroads were being built about how faster travel times were going to destroy markets and make it too hard for bandits to steal from merchants and travelers.
No, they realised that real life is not a game, nor are games real life, and therefore the debate could be valid in one but not the other.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:08:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Becham
I wonder if this debate went on when railroads were being built about how faster travel times were going to destroy markets and make it too hard for bandits to steal from merchants and travelers.


Laughing

hehe I doubt it, but then they were trying to make a profitable and safe environment for their people. Not a computer game WinkCool

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:16:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Becham
I wonder if this debate went on when railroads were being built about how faster travel times were going to destroy markets and make it too hard for bandits to steal from merchants and travelers.


No of course not. In real life, easy means more time for the important things (like EVE).
In games, easy just means easy, and that tends to fall through to 'boring'.

We play games for the challenge they present, not because they're easy. I could quite easily write you a little simulator that looked a bit like EVE and had a ship fly across it and explode when you pressed F1.

It'd be vaguely amusing for a bit, but then you'd go play a real game. EVE has longevity precisely because it is hard.

There are all sorts of spinoff professions which take advantage of the fact that whilst anyone can learn to do anything in EVE, if you're practiced, specialised then you can do it better and make a profit.

Ironically bookmark makers were one of these, although I'm not suggesting that they should still be. There are many niches that evolve out of the fact that whilst you can do anything, you cannot do everything.

Agent Li
Caldari
CCCP INC
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:18:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Originally by: Paladineguru

its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.


i can assure you - i won't have a problem to figure out how to camp the other side of the gate.

but i have a problem if "camping the other side of the gate (or better: camping a gate at all)" is the only way to enforce non-consensual PvP.

i'm not playing EVE for camping gates, i'm playing EVE for the chase and the hunt. Wink


Indeed. Camping is lame and boring, compared to chasing someone down.

With the stab nerf, when you do corner them, they'll have to stand and fight.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:21:00 - [80]
 

I am not a pirate.. but i hate WTZ because it kills the imersion of traveling.. that now is just click jump.. jump jump and hearing that zooooomm sound. Also make impossible to pursue or be pursued by pirates into the gates.


But there was problems that this solved longa range camping and instas both lame and prejudiced game. I wthink would be perfect if all BM within 100km of gates were removed and not allowed to be added anymore. And The sentries on low sec got HUGE powerfull weapons of long range (that hardly can hit a frigate but can vaporize a Battleship with 2 shots.

Also concord shoud automatically send a patrol to any system where too many deaths have happened in the last hours (excessively camped position.


Also add the capability of alliances controling a system to charge a toll to pass on the gate (so keeping them clean would be lucrative to the alliance).


Ok.. all problems solved.

Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:25:00 - [81]
 

I love warp to zero.

People talk about EVE being a dangerous game, but thats not true for most of those who are against W20. Most of those who are against it were gate camping gankers. They did it in blobs and shot everything (even pods and shuttles) that came through. There was no risk for them. They only ever faught when they easily outnumbered the ones coming through.

W20 now evens that playing field. No longer do they get these easy pickings. Now they'll have to actually go out and find their prey. W20 just made the game harder for those who were getting the free ride.

Agent Li
Caldari
CCCP INC
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:30:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
I love warp to zero.

People talk about EVE being a dangerous game, but thats not true for most of those who are against W20. Most of those who are against it were gate camping gankers. They did it in blobs and shot everything (even pods and shuttles) that came through. There was no risk for them. They only ever faught when they easily outnumbered the ones coming through.

W20 now evens that playing field. No longer do they get these easy pickings. Now they'll have to actually go out and find their prey. W20 just made the game harder for those who were getting the free ride.


Quoted for truth. Last night, I came out on the other side of the gate in Aunenen in my Badger, and some guy found out that his stabs nerfed his range so badly he couldn't shoot me - and I warped off before he could do anything about it.

There was a lot of crying and moaning from these guys in local.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:32:00 - [83]
 

seriously guys. Please for the love of god keep up with the tone of this thread.

ITS NOT ABOUT COMBAT!!!!

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:33:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 30/11/2006 15:34:38
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
I love warp to zero.

People talk about EVE being a dangerous game, but thats not true for most of those who are against W20. Most of those who are against it were gate camping gankers. They did it in blobs and shot everything (even pods and shuttles) that came through. There was no risk for them. They only ever faught when they easily outnumbered the ones coming through.

W20 now evens that playing field. No longer do they get these easy pickings. Now they'll have to actually go out and find their prey. W20 just made the game harder for those who were getting the free ride.


well .. what i have seen so far in this thread, the people opposing are NOT "gate camping gankers". they are more the opposite.

"gate camping ganker" won't have a problem with WTZ - they can still gank the jump-in side.

pirates who hunt ships down - by beeing faster than them (without wtz a ceptor will be faster than a stabbed hauler), by bringing them into a situation were they can't run anymore so easy(e.g. chasing a hauler to a planet where he can't insta out of the system) get shafted by the WTZ changes.

campers won't have much of a problem - especially not in 0.0 ... put up a large warp bubble and catch EVERYTHING that jumps in and/or warps to the gate.

@sable: sry - but not talking about the effects of WTZ in combat - is like not talking about the effects of WTZ in tradeing - both are parts of the game and both are effected by this game design. Smile

Fren Mallow
Gallente
Bluestar Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:38:00 - [85]
 

At least for mentioning: my post ist NOT about combat vs WTZ!!

Ok..

What do we have here:

- people who are afraid of freighters with instas for gates/stations.. hm.. I think most of those pilots allready used instas, so their point for markets, seen from a supplier point of view is useless

- influence on merchant-competition on markets for goods (pvp:trade).. hm.. I had made me instas for most of the routes.. station/gate, forth and back.. so, I don't think that there will be any damage from this side (hell, I even mapped all essence instas for station/gate and stations for selling! :D)

- tradehubs for selling/buying stuff at most cmopetitive prices with the whole pallette of items.. hm.. they're there since the first day..
A year ago Jita allready was THE hub.. can't think of anything other..
I, by myself, don't fly there anymore, because of the lagg :p

sumarizing the above:

I looked at the logg in statistics for the last days.. I bet, we'll have more than 30.000 users online within a time frame of two months on a daily basis.
What do you think do these people all got to!?

Low sec?
0.0?
sure...

You have a community with players, whoe's skills are saturating the economy.
A year before I couldn't fly a iteron, a barge and a covert ops and compete in producing, refining and trading.. but nowadays, that's not a problem.. and in a years distance I can do even more, maybe a frigher, who knows..
The point is, by time you get more people who can do a lot more things by themselfes (mostly importeant: IN EMPIRE).

This is, what drives down freelancer-competition in the high sec systems.
And by that I mean: Trade-PVP, Production-PVP, aso..

0.0 also got/has/will get this problem with the whole pos-ware-thing, don't knwo what they'll do about it..
The only place, where savety won't be at the same level ist low sec..
And for that one needs a corp and can't solo anymore that easy.

My conclusion to all this: This is a thread of solo-players, who are upset about the direction this game ist taking with no insight WHAT is causing this direction.

Cheers

PS: Saturation, crusting, reinforcing.. all that play's into this..
I allways thought, what would happen, if you only had a restricted count.. say maybee 20.000.000 .. skillpoints avaible, for putting your skills into? And by learning new skills, the least used skills would vanish?! Hm.. what do you think, would this have for an impact on the game?
I would say specialisation.. hehe.. real specialisation)
And real teamwork..

PPS: another thing about exploration, learning new things.. I think humans (at least that most of them are like that) wan't to explore and don't grind.
Eve has it's social interaction as a very strong point.. and long time motivation is achieved by better items and this social interaction. What makes me sad on this is, that somewhen I'll havn't seen all of it, but enough, so the game itself gets uninteresting.. except ccp hammers out new content on a yearly basis :D

*huh.. long post.. sorry for this ;)*

------------------------------
The above represents not the speech of my corp.

Nev Clavain
Wise Guys
Rogue Method Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:38:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Karunel
Originally by: Varis
instas were bad for more reasons that just DB lag.


Don't bother, people just can't understand that idea. Sad


try that argument in a real debate: everyone disagrees with me because they don't understand.

Maybe they do understand what you are saying, and they still disagree? Just a thought.

Disagreements are often born out of misunderstanding, but equally often they are born out of the fact that not everyone thinks the same way.

warp to 0 does not mean everyone is going to travel 30 jumps because a module is cheaper elsewhere.

warp to 0 does not mean pirates cant catch people

warp to 0 does not mean travel has to be any faster, ships already warp at different speeds, and anyone repeatedly making long trips were using instas.

If shortened travel time becomes a problem, then alterations can be made to the speed in au/second that ships are capable of in warp.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:39:00 - [87]
 

Quote:
@sable: sry - but not talking about the effects of WTZ in combat - is like not talking about the effects of WTZ in tradeing - both are parts of the game and both are effected by this game design.


agreed Very Happy

Just getting tired of people trying to rubbish the discussion by saying we only don't like it cos we can't gank people anymore Rolling Eyes

Some people have put a lot of time and thought into this thread and its kinda insulting when its summed up in such a way - especially when its not even been discussed in any real detail cos the answer is so ruddy obvious MadRazz

anyway, thanks for the mood breaker, was needed Very Happy

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:47:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Fren Mallow
At least for mentioning: my post ist NOT about combat vs WTZ!!

Ok..

What do we have here:

- people who are afraid of freighters with instas for gates/stations.. hm.. I think most of those pilots allready used instas, so their point for markets, seen from a supplier point of view is useless

- influence on merchant-competition on markets for goods (pvp:trade).. hm.. I had made me instas for most of the routes.. station/gate, forth and back.. so, I don't think that there will be any damage from this side (hell, I even mapped all essence instas for station/gate and stations for selling! :D)

- tradehubs for selling/buying stuff at most cmopetitive prices with the whole pallette of items.. hm.. they're there since the first day..
A year ago Jita allready was THE hub.. can't think of anything other..
I, by myself, don't fly there anymore, because of the lagg :p

sumarizing the above:

I looked at the logg in statistics for the last days.. I bet, we'll have more than 30.000 users online within a time frame of two months on a daily basis.
What do you think do these people all got to!?

Low sec?
0.0?
sure...

You have a community with players, whoe's skills are saturating the economy.
A year before I couldn't fly a iteron, a barge and a covert ops and compete in producing, refining and trading.. but nowadays, that's not a problem.. and in a years distance I can do even more, maybe a frigher, who knows..
The point is, by time you get more people who can do a lot more things by themselfes (mostly importeant: IN EMPIRE).

This is, what drives down freelancer-competition in the high sec systems.
And by that I mean: Trade-PVP, Production-PVP, aso..

0.0 also got/has/will get this problem with the whole pos-ware-thing, don't knwo what they'll do about it..
The only place, where savety won't be at the same level ist low sec..
And for that one needs a corp and can't solo anymore that easy.

My conclusion to all this: This is a thread of solo-players, who are upset about the direction this game ist taking with no insight WHAT is causing this direction.

Cheers

PS: Saturation, crusting, reinforcing.. all that play's into this..
I allways thought, what would happen, if you only had a restricted count.. say maybee 20.000.000 .. skillpoints avaible, for putting your skills into? And by learning new skills, the least used skills would vanish?! Hm.. what do you think, would this have for an impact on the game?
I would say specialisation.. hehe.. real specialisation)
And real teamwork..

PPS: another thing about exploration, learning new things.. I think humans (at least that most of them are like that) wan't to explore and don't grind.
Eve has it's social interaction as a very strong point.. and long time motivation is achieved by better items and this social interaction. What makes me sad on this is, that somewhen I'll havn't seen all of it, but enough, so the game itself gets uninteresting.. except ccp hammers out new content on a yearly basis :D

*huh.. long post.. sorry for this ;)*

------------------------------
The above represents not the speech of my corp.


this is all well and good assuming you haven't been of the opinion that there have been problems with travel times for a while now... roughly for as long as instas have existed. Important thing to remember here, just because WTZ mirrors a factor that existed with Instas doesn't mean its negates the argument. Only that the argument existed when instas were a factor. Not only that, but the argument has been undeniably proven with the state of the eve verse markets, Jita in particular

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.30 15:48:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 30/11/2006 15:53:42
Originally by: Nev Clavain

If shortened travel time becomes a problem, then alterations can be made to the speed in au/second that ships are capable of in warp.


maybe it ALLREADY causes problems??

read the posts regarding shopping centers/small groceries and the advanced mobility by cars.

do you think jita would have yesterday 700 in local with another 600 waiting for jump-in, if something like instas weren't around? it's not like the before mentioned effects are starting now - it's more like that the mentioned effects are allready existing, but with the latest change in gamedesign there's no hope that it will change to the better anytime soon.

@kagura: i like some of your ideas Wink

Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.11.30 16:06:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Sever Aldaria on 30/11/2006 16:06:49
Originally by: Tiree
If you need to travel 15km to a gate everytime, 0.0 will be almost impossible to travel through.[...] Frigates would be able to arrive before cruiser, cruiser before BS etc.



If I was a frigate in a roaming mixed fleet and had to wait 1 minute at each gate for the battleship pilots to slow boat it to the gate every time and, I'd just say "screw you guys. I'm going to go find an inty to kill." Would be bad not only for the sake of danger (near suicide really) but also for moving big fleets around.

If you made gates a 15km bubble, then the point of interdictors is what exactly? And you're going to refund mine every other dictor pilot's 2 months of dictor and support skill training time how?


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