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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:38:00 - [31]
 

Quote:
And if they took away warp to 0km and no insta, who the **** would bother moving 20 freighters 60+ jumps through 0.0


Bingo!!!

And that is the point (well, one of them) right there. The ability to move a freighter that many jumps in the first place is a problem to the over all balance of eve. Doing it in 0.0 is a boarder line anathma

Welcome to the reason for Hub systems and all the lag they create Wink

Baleine4Nerver
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:44:00 - [32]
 

I dont understand all the people against WTZ.. everyone had BMS.

If i was moving to a new region I would either BM it out or buy them.

Everyone does.. WTZ is brilliant for gameplay.

get your enemies on the other side.. or get a bubble, low sec gate snipers... boo hoo.

DaChMon
Caldari
STEEL AXIS inc.
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:45:00 - [33]
 

remove BMs, remove warpto at anything less than 200km,and everybodt pops up at random spots.

That would quiet you whiners down.

Miya Kurosawa
Caldari
White Wolves Defence league
The OSS
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:03:00 - [34]
 

Why can't people just accept this? This change has been implemented and it's here to stay, but not to the point that it's unfair. As already mentioned, there have been improvements to warp bubbles and reduction in warp stab capability to compensate for interdiction scenarios.

That being said, why can't people just adapt and be men for once? Hell, if you spent as much time making the proper set-ups for your ships as you did whining in the forums, you'd probably be learning to live with Warp to 0 right now.

Enough said.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:05:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Miya Kurosawa
Why can't people just accept this? This change has been implemented and it's here to stay, but not to the point that it's unfair. As already mentioned, there have been improvements to warp bubbles and reduction in warp stab capability to compensate for interdiction scenarios.

That being said, why can't people just adapt and be men for once? Hell, if you spent as much time making the proper set-ups for your ships as you did whining in the forums, you'd probably be learning to live with Warp to 0 right now.

Enough said.


because, as someone has previously posted but you obviously skipped that part and jumped straight to posting, this isn't all about combat.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:06:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
It gets brought up repeatedly, because warp to zero is a negative part of EVE gameplay. There's all these people frothing about how great it is.

Here's the problem though. If you were to release a module that was a 1 shot kill, I win button, lots of people would say it was great. I mean, missions get easy, and ratting is really fast, and you can do it in an indy for loot grabbing.

EVE is a good game because it is _NOT_ easy. PvP is more fun than PvE, because there's actual risk involved, and the 'opponent' is (sometimes) smart, where NPCs ... well never can be really.

I am not a pirate. To my knowledge I've only ever lost sec status once, and that was opening up on a -4.8 sec person in lowsec.

I have also flown a Badger Mk II, 10 jumps into querious, regularly, to run a POS chain. It's really no that bad. In fact, it's actually quite fun. The only reason I stopped and started using instas is because 'everyone else' was using this crutch, and pretty much destroying my profit margins by running fully expanded iterons back and forth.

Slow ships should be slow. I would like to see a situation where a cruiser is chosen for combat over a battleship, because it has mobility where the BS has firepower.


Shut the heck up man...

Warp to 0 is the easiest, most efficient way to destroy a worthelss isk and time sink ( selling and creation of bms ) that harms the quality of life.

EVE isn't about a gank being around ever friggin gate. There is a lot of empty space that should be flourishing. Warp to 0 is a step in the right direction to getting these areas flourishing faster. It makes the game much more accessible to newer players. New players don't have to LEARN shoddy game mechanics ( instas ) that creates lag just to move around.

If you got issues with it then you are obviously not looking at the new game mechanics to combat this new feature, like mobile large bubbles. If you are crying about how low sec gate piracy is getting hurt, then I kindly point you into the direction of the scanner... and low sec mission runners. There the piwats might actually be just that... piwats... and not 2mil SP raven gate campers to exploit ship stats, like slow aligning industrials and crap sentry damage.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:10:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Sable Schroedinger on 30/11/2006 12:11:46
Originally by: Kaylana Syi

Shut the heck up man...

Warp to 0 is the easiest, most efficient way to destroy a worthelss isk and time sink ( selling and creation of bms ) that harms the quality of life.

EVE isn't about a gank being around ever friggin gate. There is a lot of empty space that should be flourishing. Warp to 0 is a step in the right direction to getting these areas flourishing faster. It makes the game much more accessible to newer players. New players don't have to LEARN shoddy game mechanics ( instas ) that creates lag just to move around.

If you got issues with it then you are obviously not looking at the new game mechanics to combat this new feature, like mobile large bubbles. If you are crying about how low sec gate piracy is getting hurt, then I kindly point you into the direction of the scanner... and low sec mission runners. There the piwats might actually be just that... piwats... and not 2mil SP raven gate campers to exploit ship stats, like slow aligning industrials and crap sentry damage.


Before you go trolling someone and putting words in their mouth, may I suggest you actually read their posts to find out what they are actually talking about? James has mentioned none of the above and the fact that it appears you can only concieve of this tiny part of the game makes you ill equiped to contest the point with him.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:11:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: James Lyrus on 30/11/2006 12:15:06
Originally by: Miya Kurosawa
Why can't people just accept this? This change has been implemented and it's here to stay, but not to the point that it's unfair. As already mentioned, there have been improvements to warp bubbles and reduction in warp stab capability to compensate for interdiction scenarios.

That being said, why can't people just adapt and be men for once? Hell, if you spent as much time making the proper set-ups for your ships as you did whining in the forums, you'd probably be learning to live with Warp to 0 right now.

Enough said.


Warp to zero is not (just) about combat. It's about the impact it has on imposing travel times:

Jita is close, because I can WTZ there, therefore I got to Jita to save 5% on the cost of my stuff, therefore there is no point in putting anything on the market anywhere else.

Same problem with the entirety of the EVE economy.

When people set up shop in 0.0, they do so away from others, so they're not continually fighting. The distance is _nothing_ to do with number of jumps, and everything to do with how fast the other group can move battleships to skirmish.

It's instas that let alliances claim entire regions, nothing more. Without then they'd be picking on constellations and systems.

It's also instas that create massive gank-camps - it's easy to move 20 battleships to a gate, and you need to do so to actually 'get' someone. Therefore the pirates (and 0.0 politicians) do so.

Imagine if you will that a pirate or blob _cannot_ move battleships easily. They may still do so, or they might come out and play in cruisers instead. Chosing mobility over raw firepower. This actually makes running blockades easier - your BS runs into 5 cruisers and you have a fight, not a gank.

The reason for the discusson over warp to zero is the longer it's in, the more people will grow to depend upon the crutch that it is. The amount of whining over the mere possiblities that instas would go was incredible.

Like all the others, I am adapting to these changed circumstances. But just because I'm developing new tactics to counter 'easy mode' doesn't mean I think 'easy mode' should stay.

And just for those who seem to think I'm an ebil piratting yarrer, I would direct you to the alliance thingy, underneath my name. My last PvP 'action' was November 2nd, in my 'home' system popping a pirate who'd attacked there.

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:13:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Gonada on 30/11/2006 12:16:33

Warp to 0 is the easiest, most efficient way to destroy a worthelss isk and time sink ( selling and creation of bms ) that harms the quality of life.

EVE isn't about a gank being around ever friggin gate. There is a lot of empty space that should be flourishing. Warp to 0 is a step in the right direction to getting these areas flourishing faster. It makes the game much more accessible to newer players. New players don't have to LEARN shoddy game mechanics ( instas ) that creates lag just to move around.

If you got issues with it then you are obviously not looking at the new game mechanics to combat this new feature, like mobile large bubbles. If you are crying about how low sec gate piracy is getting hurt, then I kindly point you into the direction of the scanner... and low sec mission runners. There the piwats might actually be just that... piwats... and not 2mil SP raven gate campers to exploit ship stats, like slow aligning industrials and crap sentry damage.


what he saidVery Happy


death2nite
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:19:00 - [40]
 

as has been mentioned 100 times in the past if you are unhappy with the way the game mechanics work you have 2 choices, adapt or quit. !

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:22:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: death2nite
as has been mentioned 100 times in the past if you are unhappy with the way the game mechanics work you have 2 choices, adapt or quit. !


I have said nothing about quitting. I'm not going to be doing that, after all, I used instas too.

I'm trying to make a case that _this mechanic_ is flawed, and should be changed. Better sooner than later, because the magnitude of protest will only get worse.

DeckardIRL
The Randoms
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:24:00 - [42]
 

No Offence to the OP- as he stated- he doesn't play much so stay out of an argument that has been hashed so may times and won by the WTZ ppl. WTZ was pre-Kali it was called INSTAS. The Devs are for this as has been stated in another thread TODAY by Dev Ginger. There are 280M BMs in the database. Getting rid of them will decrease lag, improve database performance and thus make Eve better for EVERYONE.

END OF ARGUMENT

Deck

LC Sulla
Caldari
House Mekarae
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:32:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: LC Sulla on 30/11/2006 12:33:27
Personally I don't think the Devs are absolutely happy with the state of things either. Just read their dev blogs and posts. Put simply the instas were 'wrecking' their servers (I think Oveur used that word). Anyone who was anyone used instas (including pirates) leaving poor noobs at the mercy of just about everyone. Solution... warp to 15kms or 0kms.

If they enforced the warp to 15kms there could very well have been more problems than with the warp to 0. Ever been in a fleet where you needed to make 15 jumps. If they enforced the 15km rule there would have been a lot less travel in 0.0. Fleet with BS's would have taken hours just to get into position. 0.4 systems would be deserted as noobs and alliance members fell to gate camping gank squads. It would have created a general inertia and stagnation in the movement of goods from 0.0 to empire. The price of Zydrine and megacyte would skyrocket because people just couldn't get their goods to empire to sell. Wars would be less frequent because people just couldn't be bothered spending 90% of their time meandering to the next gate over and over again.

Think of the big picture people. Warp to 0 dents pvp somewhat. No one is arguing with that. Warp to 15 could have dangerously paralysed the Eve economy.

I feel for the Devs on this because because it fundementally effects so many apects of Eve.

Chimera Ur
Nibado Inc
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:32:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Hussain

I was never a pirate in EVE (but lost more tham a ship to them) and dont intent on becoming one but anyway tell a newb how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ? :)



Jump after his prey and warp-scramble him before his ship is aligned?

Chimera Ur
Nibado Inc
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:36:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
It gets brought up repeatedly, because warp to zero is a negative part of EVE gameplay.


No, it not "IS" a negative part of the gameplay. YOU personally don't like it, fine, too bad. Some in my corp agree with you. However, most people I've spoken to absolutely love the warp-to-0 implementation. For me personally, the time wasted travelling the 15km to my bookmark to get the cargo is something that caused me to quit the game the first time (I started and stopped the first time in 2004).

Keep in mind, it's all a matter of opinions. A lot of people don't like the change. A lot do.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:37:00 - [46]
 

I disliked Warp-to-0 whn it was in BM form, and I dislike it now. I think it has taken one of the vital elements of EVE travel (the need to be out of warp and vulnerable for 15 km before raching your warp destination) just because it put people at risk. Heres the thing- wasn't that the point?!

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:40:00 - [47]
 

Quote:
Think of the big picture people. Warp to 0 dents pvp somewhat. No one is arguing with that. Warp to 15 could have dangerously paralysed the Eve economy.


its the big picture we're thinking about. Economies *require* travel times to function and create markets, therefore removing it harms the economy drastically.

Wolfmoon
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:48:00 - [48]
 

The 0km jump is MY new best friend. The game to me isn't how loing can I make travel time last...or feed the pirates.

And sorry, PVE is risk. Go fly a level 4 headhunter mission in a ferox and tell me you wont get more than a little worried. Jeez.

I don't care about pirates. I avoid them and deprive them as often as I can in game. Mostly by never going to lowsec! Lol! Too bad, so sad. Go gank your best friend.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:48:00 - [49]
 

grimpak's opinion about WTZ:

instas were bad. I hated them but I had to use them.

WTZ until now looks cool, BUT! it's still too soon to arguing about it, since it has been no less than 3 days since it was implemented in TQ.

in short: Instas were bad, and I don't have a totally formed and clear opinion about WTZ yet since it's too freakin' soon to have one.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:58:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho
Edited by: Wild Rho on 30/11/2006 10:25:12
Oh and people wouldn't quit, well some would but that happens after any major change to some degree or another.
Claiming everyone will quit is nothing more than a scare tactic with no proof.


Would everyone quit? no thats a goofy statement.

Would I? yah. Kinda funny I play "games" to escape reality not get a big ol heafy dose of it in the form of a boring ass commute to do anything.

Look eve is a slow game. we all know that. It's not quake. It takes months or years to be able to fly what you want and equip what you want. You can blow hours going from one place to another. Does it really need to be slower? WTZ lit a tiney flame under the snail race. It didn't turn the game into the greyhound track.

Ok look at this yes every one is complaining the poor poor pirates they'll not be able to kill people at gates anymore. Well last night I needed a scout. So I said heck with it made an alt real quick and in an ibis I made it all over the place in .0. NOW had a bubble been anywhere I'd have been dead meat BUT getting there was fairly easy. Course with instas getting there used to be easy before.
Course then again what do you do when your there? Cant dock. Cant really mine without docking, can rat but cant keep the loot. And if you apply this to low sec. Ok can get there now. Still gotta do something while your there no purpose in just going to low sec without doing something while your there. Hmm maybe since it's easier to get there and you have a chance at surviving while there more people will go.

To me pirates have been killin gazel in the zoo pin for long enough. Now the gazel are loose and your going to have to catch them at the watering hole use new tactics not sit at gates ect ect. The gazel are gonna populate multiply well then you get to weed out the dumb ones.

In the end I think wtz just made the game a little more fun is all. It didn't simplify setups or the real game play but took a bit of the teadum away.

If I were playing a game of cards but the deck was kept in the neighbors house and I had to run next door every time I was to draw a new card and then someone said "hey novel idea why not just bring the entire deck right here?" and the second person said "no that would simplify the game to much it wouldn't feel as big" Would you agree? Or would you just slap the crap out of the first person.

LC Sulla
Caldari
House Mekarae
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:01:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: LC Sulla on 30/11/2006 13:05:04
Edited by: LC Sulla on 30/11/2006 13:03:41
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
Quote:
Think of the big picture people. Warp to 0 dents pvp somewhat. No one is arguing with that. Warp to 15 could have dangerously paralysed the Eve economy.


its the big picture we're thinking about. Economies *require* travel times to function and create markets, therefore removing it harms the economy drastically.

Wealth has increased in the world today as a result of decreased travel times. Currencies and stocks are traded in todays marketplace virtually at the click of a button. If you increase travel times AND increase the risk involved to move goods you will get a fragmentation of the marketplace in EVE. This would lead to inflation within EVE. If you want localised economies then be prepared for serious decreases to your wealth and serious increases to the time needed to make the ISK to buy your next pvp ship. If there is less overall travel then pvp'ers are going to be very bored indeed.

In the real world today companies are looking to decrease travel times and costs for movement of their goods. Not the other way around. Are you really advocating that the Eve economy should move counter to standard economic beliefs and practices. Increasing risk and travel times of good destroys new markets not creates them. Where did you learn economics? It's the premise of globalisation and free markets.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:08:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: LC Sulla
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
Quote:
Think of the big picture people. Warp to 0 dents pvp somewhat. No one is arguing with that. Warp to 15 could have dangerously paralysed the Eve economy.


its the big picture we're thinking about. Economies *require* travel times to function and create markets, therefore removing it harms the economy drastically.

Wealth has increased in the world today as a result of decreased travel times. Currencies and stocks are traded in todays marketplace virtually at the click of a button. If you increase tavel times AND increase the risk involved you will get a fragmentation of the marketplace in EVE. This would lead to inflation within EVE. If you want localised economies then be prepared for serious decreases to your wealth and serious increases to the time needed to make the ISK to buy your next pvp ship. If there is less overall travel then pvp'ers are going to be very bored indeed.

In the real world today companies are looking to decrease travel times and costs for movement of their goods. Not the other way around. Are you really advocating that the Eve economy should move counter to standard economic beliefs and practices.


in the real world today companies dismiss thousands of workers to outsource their production in low-wage countries. in europe milk from germany gets transfered to italy to make cheese that is sold again in germany. in africa fruits and vegetables from spain are cheaper than from regional farmers. it's cheaper to import soya from brazil to austria to fatten pigs, than using regional cereals.

all that thanks to cheap and fast travel.

it's a great world ain't it?

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:13:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: LC Sulla

Wealth has increased in the world today as a result of decreased travel times. Currencies and stocks are traded in todays marketplace virtually at the click of a button. If you increase tavel times AND increase the risk involved you will get a fragmentation of the marketplace in EVE. This would lead to inflation within EVE. If you want localised economies then be prepared for serious decreases to your wealth and serious increases to the time needed to make the ISK to buy your next pvp ship. If there is less overall travel then pvp'ers are going to be very bored indeed.

In the real world today companies are looking to decrease travel times and costs for movement of their goods. Not the other way around. Are you really advocating that the Eve economy should move counter to standard economic beliefs and practices. Increasing risk and travel times of good destroys new markets not creates them. Where did you learn economics?


At Both the Universities of Birmingham and Leeds.

Just because something is cheaper or more efficient, does not make it a better game mechanic. You're focusing on one aspect, not the entire picture here. You need to work into your economic model aspects such as (in RL terms) traffic congestion, town planning and other infrastructure issues but stretch them out to a gaming environment. A traffic jam at your out of town shopping centre (extremely common place and featured into the planning permission of building these things) is not likely to crash your country, but it may just bring down TQ.

Eethrak
LiveTech
Cold Fusion Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:13:00 - [54]
 

I love how people who see a negative WTZ thread immediately assume its been put up by gate campers.

I fly a freighter, and WTZ now means I spend a lot less time in my freighter. But as has been said here before, and I've said elsewhere, it has decreased the major drawback of the freighter - the spirit crushing time spent travelling from one place to another. I don't have (or didn't) for places I don't go to often, now I have insta equivaltents for anywhere I want to go. From the "I win" point of view thats great, but there's a lot more in play than that. Someone already mentioned the economic knock-on of this, and thats a real consequence of speeding freighters up. We can go anywhere we want in a comparatively short time, collect whatever goods we need and bring them home. Whereas before manipulating markets was fairly hard work, its now a fairly easy task. There's a reason freighters, and to a lesser extent haulers, go slow - and its not to do with vulnerability at the gate or combat or anything else. Its because the freighter is such a powerful economic tool that there has to be a dis-incentive to its use.

Before anyone suggests it - I'm not going to just use warp to 15. I'm going to play by the same rules as everyone else. But I do think the rules are broken given the way they work now. I'm not suggesting that we put instas back in or remove WTZ, but I think there ought to be serious consideration of the ideas presented here and other places of a modified system for warp speed, allowing modules to affect it. Of course, that doesn't help the freighter, but hopefully the values for the freighter will be balanced accordingly.

LC Sulla
Caldari
House Mekarae
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:14:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: LC Sulla on 30/11/2006 13:18:36
Edited by: LC Sulla on 30/11/2006 13:17:44
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
in the real world today companies dismiss thousands of workers to outsource their production in low-wage countries. in europe milk from germany gets transfered to italy to make cheese that is sold again in germany. in africa fruits and vegetables from spain are cheaper than from regional farmers. it's cheaper to import soya from brazil to austria to fatten pigs, than using regional cereals.

all that thanks to cheap and fast travel.

it's a great world ain't it?

Don't forget though, and so many of you do. Your ability to afford to play Eve, have a decent enough wage to get a good internet connection is fundementally based on all this. But I don't see the masses switching their internets, TV's, mobiles off because of this moral outrage Very Happy. It aint prefect but it's the best we've got.

Going a bit OT though.

Quote:
A traffic jam at your out of town shopping centre (extremely common place and featured into the planning permission of building these things) is not likely to crash your country, but it may just bring down TQ.

There are ways to reduce traffic in high traffic hubs like Jita without making the 15km warp to. Taxes, docking fees, etc. Just link all taxes it to the amount to traffic in a system.

Marquan Reflex
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:18:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho


EDIT: typo goblins struck again.


hehehe okie dokie lil duckie musta had the bandana on too tight again eh?

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:23:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 30/11/2006 13:23:53
sulla - you're correct - i won't deny that i profit from cheap and fast travel - in EVE as well as in RL.

but i still think that every advantage has some serious disadvantages - some are more obvious, other aren't.

and that's why we have THIS thread. to show up some of these disadvantages. (i don't want to start a discussion about RL problems in here - but you can believe me .. i'm not happy with the things i mentioned before)

the best way to stop "WTZ suck" threads is to show us (me, james and others) why our predictioans won't be true, that our assumptions are wrong and that it won't cause these problems.

i think i can speak for some of the other WTZ-"haters" - we will be really happy if we are wrong. but so far there's no reason or argument to be optimistic.

remember - it's not the range you warp to the gate that removes DB stress - it's the removal of BMs - if people are lazy or get new "300km above the gate" BMs nothing will change for the DB - but the game has still undergone a fundamental change in it's philosophy.

Iyanah
Minmatar
Tuikoax
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:25:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Hussain
Hi,

(RANT)

Thanks,


well, hussain, you claim to have been here since beta, so you know everyone has instas anyway, so everyone could effectively warp to 0, but they were causing lag.

the pirate's situation has not changed, the only difference is that now they got better gate camping tools (new warp disruptor devices anyone?).

to be honest, i'd have thought, having played for so long, that you'd be used to the community as a whole getting updates they want, which individuals such as yourself may not agree with, and as such would know how to deal with it.

but since you don't, here's the solution:
suck it up, and take it like a man.

harsh, i know, but that's how things work.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:26:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Iyanah

well, hussain, you claim to have been here since beta, so you know everyone has instas anyway, so everyone could effectively warp to 0, but they were causing lag.



uhm .. i had 2000 bms ... for 20 regions ... now tell me i had instas for all gates and stations in every system.

Jessica May
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:27:00 - [60]
 

Pre-Kali:
You had Insta's
You didn't have Insta's

Post Kali:
You use WTZ
You don't use WTZ

Gate campers, you can still gank all the folk that (for some reason) think this will "totally kill the game" and not willing to use them. This is leave all the levelled headed folk who just use the tools they're given to the best advantage to get on with the game.

Message of the day:
Give accurate, meaningfull feed back. No one is interested in ranting or how a feature has peronally ruined you life.


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