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Hussain
Gallente
Azure Horizon Federate Militia
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:12:00 - [1]
 

Hi,

I play EVE since the last days of BETA, but I consider myself a newb becouse I dont play a lot and there are months in which I dont even log, anyway here goes my opinion about the "Warp to 0" ability.

I know that many people have an allergy to shoot (I am assuming that everyone is allergic to be shot at...), that it is very easy and time effective to use Warp 0 and that everybody (not quite so) used tons of Instanjumps bookmarks. Look at my case I am a casual EVE player I never had more tham half a dozen Instanjumps bookmarks (no patience/time) my life is a lot easy on EVE now. So why the fuzz ?

I did some PVP and I do recall as some of the most enjoyable experiences in EVE 3 things : blockade running in low sec systems while keeping an eye for any pirate (even if it only an imagined threat), trying to block someone/being blocked in a system and run to a gate/starbase with someone hot on my tail or persuing someone.

Well in my opinion this is another case of "everybody does it/likes it so lets make it official" as I play a lot of MMORPGs I know this is a common thing to happen, problem is sometimes the game looses edge (adreneline rushes...whatever) with that kind of changes, like game in wich death is not heavialy penalized.

About the lag, etc caused by the Intanjumps bookmarks, why not simple deleting them from say 30km arround starbases and gates and not letting make new ones ? That would keep the rush and kill that lag problem.

I was never a pirate in EVE (but lost more tham a ship to them) and dont intent on becoming one but anyway tell a newb how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ? :)

Thanks,

Gefex
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:25:00 - [2]
 

God, how many times does this have to get brought up?

Quote:
About the lag, etc caused by the Intanjumps bookmarks, why not simple deleting them from say 30km arround starbases and gates and not letting make new ones ? That would keep the rush and kill that lag problem.


Because then people would make bookmarks 50km away and then 'Warp to 50'... Delete bookmarks within 200km of gates? You kill a lot of tactical bookmarks people have made. Warp to 0 is the best solution, you just need to adapt, pirates have been given a helping hand in other areas. Bigger bubbles, stab nerf etc.. and rumors about being able to bubble in low sec after the next patch.

Quote:
I was never a pirate in EVE (but lost more tham a ship to them) and dont intent on becoming one but anyway tell a newb how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ? :)


Wait on the other side of the gate? Rolling Eyes

Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:27:00 - [3]
 

its not just about combat.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:32:00 - [4]
 

It gets brought up repeatedly, because warp to zero is a negative part of EVE gameplay. There's all these people frothing about how great it is.

Here's the problem though. If you were to release a module that was a 1 shot kill, I win button, lots of people would say it was great. I mean, missions get easy, and ratting is really fast, and you can do it in an indy for loot grabbing.

EVE is a good game because it is _NOT_ easy. PvP is more fun than PvE, because there's actual risk involved, and the 'opponent' is (sometimes) smart, where NPCs ... well never can be really.

I am not a pirate. To my knowledge I've only ever lost sec status once, and that was opening up on a -4.8 sec person in lowsec.

I have also flown a Badger Mk II, 10 jumps into querious, regularly, to run a POS chain. It's really no that bad. In fact, it's actually quite fun. The only reason I stopped and started using instas is because 'everyone else' was using this crutch, and pretty much destroying my profit margins by running fully expanded iterons back and forth.

Slow ships should be slow. I would like to see a situation where a cruiser is chosen for combat over a battleship, because it has mobility where the BS has firepower.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:41:00 - [5]
 

yup, totally agree. Hated the idea of warp to 0 from day one and still do. I personally believe its going to be the biggest mistake made in the game as a whole for quite a while and will only exacerbate the problems with hub systems. Players as a whole will blame the contracts system Ė but in reality that is only because they donít like the idea of losing access to a galaxy wide market system, not because of any well thought out reasoning. Faster travel just means people think less about travelling 20 jumps for something, so hubs will get worse.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:48:00 - [6]
 

As usual people think slow ships should be slow due to being forced out of warp at a distance to the target rather than actually being slow.

Rolling Eyes

Waut
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:51:00 - [7]
 

Eventually everyone had instas anyway so whats the point?

Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:54:00 - [8]
 

instas were bad for more reasons that just DB lag.

Jessica May
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:54:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Hussain

I did some PVP and I do recall as some of the most enjoyable experiences in EVE 3 things : blockade running in low sec systems while keeping an eye for any pirate (even if it only an imagined threat)


Well you can easily cure this one, don't use the Warp to 0km option (no one is forcing you) and slow boat to the gate and let your imagination run wild!

You never know, if you only used half a dozon BM (and assuming jump gates) the fact you're always slow boating when everyone is now Warping to 0 you'll stick out like a sore thumb and you'll have more fun than you can shake a stick at!

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:55:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 09:56:57

Originally by: James Lyrus
It gets brought up repeatedly, because warp to zero is a negative part of EVE gameplay. There's all these people frothing about how great it is.

Here's the problem though. If you were to release a module that was a 1 shot kill, I win button, lots of people would say it was great. I mean, missions get easy, and ratting is really fast, and you can do it in an indy for loot grabbing.



Meh. Your arguments are wrong. People were happy about Warp to 0 because they didnt have to copy bookmarks and lag down the server. We were happy because now we could travel like we always do without causing database lag.

Warp to 0 is fantastic and good for Eve. It changes nothing compared to having loads of instas. And if you think people would stay with Eve if they had to slowboat to every gate in 0.0 and low sec... think again. It would be like if WoW didnt have mounts, and you would have to walk across the entire map to get somewhere. You think that would be fun for players? No you dont. :)

Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 09:56:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
As usual people think slow ships should be slow due to being forced out of warp at a distance to the target rather than actually being slow.

Rolling Eyes


actually - i'd be quite happy if they changed warp speeds dramaticaly for ships. and that _modules_ can change the warp speed.


Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:03:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 30/11/2006 10:18:50
Originally by: Jim McGregor

Warp to 0 is fantastic and good for Eve. It changes nothing compared to having loads of instas. And if you think people would stay with Eve if they had to slowboat to every gate in 0.0 and low sec... think again. It would be like if WoW didnt have mounts, and you would have to walk across the entire map to get somewhere. You think that would be fun for players? No you dont. :)



why do you think it's a "good idea in the first place to walk across the entire map"?

the "oh ... i can buy this 30jumps away for 10% cheaper" mentality sucks.

btw - the argument "because BMs caused lag and people had to copy them" is not only applicable to WTZ, it's also applicable to WT10 in addition with a forced deletion of BMs and stopping the creation of new ones. Wink ... the "success" of WTZ is based on the hope and the assumption that people will delete their instas themselves. seems their hope won't help them

Karunel
Princeps Corp
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:17:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Varis
instas were bad for more reasons that just DB lag.


Don't bother, people just can't understand that idea. Sad

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:19:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Wild Rho on 30/11/2006 10:25:12
Originally by: Jim McGregor

Meh. Your arguments are wrong. People were happy about Warp to 0 because they didnt have to copy bookmarks and lag down the server. We were happy because now we could travel like we always do without causing database lag.


His arguments aren't wrong. If people were THAT worried that their bms were causing server problems they wouldn't make them.
People are happy with warp to zero becuase it makes all travel anywhere safer and easier without having to make/purchase or otherwise acquire the bms before hand.
They key word here is convenience.

Originally by: Jim McGregor

Warp to 0 is fantastic and good for Eve. It changes nothing compared to having loads of instas. And if you think people would stay with Eve if they had to slowboat to every gate in 0.0 and low sec... think again. It would be like if WoW didnt have mounts, and you would have to walk across the entire map to get somewhere. You think that would be fun for players? No you dont. :)


Instas change everything. They completely ignore the balance issues of travel capacity over travel speed.
They have only been added recently out of necessity due to the BM load having a noticable impact on the server performance.

Slowboating is a misleading term when you get right down to it.
A ship fitted for speed doesn't slow boat, it can cover the distance to the gate very quickly and be away. If the pilots smart and used scouts, intel or even his scanner before hand, gate camps do not become a major issue.

Oh and people wouldn't quit, well some would but that happens after any major change to some degree or another.
Claiming everyone will quit is nothing more than a scare tactic with no proof.
Yes people would moan and cry about it, but in the end the smart would adapt to it first and everyone would follow in time until it became the norm.


For long travel times, they are easily negated.

Fit for speed.
Use local markets instead of the one trade hub.
Pay someone else to collect your goods for you.

Warp to zero is popular becuase it removes the risk and need for alot of effort when traveling (in high, low or 0.0 space).
It makes a players life easier so yes they will like it, that doesn't mean it makes the game better.

I'll recognise why it was brought and I'll use it since I'm not gonna handicap myself but I don't agree with it and wouldn't miss it.

Taurequis
Waylander 01
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:25:00 - [15]
 

It just changes the fact your not going to be able to gank that 1 noob every couple of hours who gets to your gatecamp (which you forgot to bubble) without instas. Big deal.

Buy a bubble. They are on the market now.

Taur

Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:28:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Varis on 30/11/2006 10:55:23
Originally by: Taurequis
It just changes the fact your not going to be able to gank that 1 noob every couple of hours who gets to your gatecamp (which you forgot to bubble) without instas. Big deal.

Buy a bubble. They are on the market now.

Taur

THIS IS NOT ABOUT COMBAT!

Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:28:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Plutoinum on 30/11/2006 10:35:00

Originally by: Gefex

Because then people would make bookmarks 50km away and then 'Warp to 50'...

That was never a valid argument imho. They could have made it that you would always land off the gate, when using a BM.

It's really simple: You just need to be able to query the positions of gates and stations in the destination grid fast, which are usually only 1 or 2 objects. Then you declare spheres around those objects, where no ship is supposed to land, when using a BM.
If the ship would land within this sphere (checked with one simple equation), then calculate the first point, where the warppath of the ship intersects with that sphere. Let the ship warp to that point. Only a few lines of code. No insta possible, no matter how you try.

So I doubt that what you said had much influence on CCPs decision.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:28:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Wild Rho on 30/11/2006 10:30:16
Originally by: Taurequis
It just changes the fact your not going to be able to gank that 1 noob every couple of hours who gets to your gatecamp (which you forgot to bubble) without instas. Big deal.

Buy a bubble. They are on the market now.
Taur

It's strange how everyone who gets caught at a gate is in a shuttle, rookie ship, indy and always seems to be a "noob".

Oh and bubbles are great and everything but not alot of use if you're in an empire war.

Miss Overlord
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:31:00 - [19]
 

can i have youre stuff

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:37:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho

His arguments aren't wrong. If people were THAT worried that their bms were causing server problems they wouldn't make them.
People are happy with warp to zero becuase it makes all travel anywhere safer and easier without having to make/purchase or otherwise acquire the bms before hand.
They key word here is convenience.



Well, I cant speak for everyone, but it was very easy for me to go to the forum channel and find a bookmark seller that sold regions for 30 mill each. And people will always look to their own good in the game before looking to the good for the database. Now with Warp to 0, we get both.

Originally by: Wild Rho

Instas change everything. They completely ignore the balance issues of travel capacity over travel speed.



Yes, instas change everything compared to not having instas, but Warp to 0 change nothing compare to instas. People already had loads of instas, so for them nothing changes.

Originally by: Wild Rho

A ship fitted for speed doesn't slow boat, it can cover the distance to the gate very quickly and be away. If the pilots smart and used scouts, intel or even his scanner before hand, gate camps do not become a major issue.



Yes, but people cant fit for speed when they are trying to find someone to fight. What are they going to do when they find someone - tell them to hold on while they dock and refit for combat?

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho

Warp to zero is popular becuase it removes the risk and need for alot of effort when traveling (in high, low or 0.0 space).
It makes a players life easier so yes they will like it, that doesn't mean it makes the game better.

I'll recognise why it was brought and I'll use it since I'm not gonna handicap myself but I don't agree with it and wouldn't miss it.


What he said :). I felt the same about 'instas' as well.

I personally feel the 'solution' to database insta-lag would be essentially to make every gate a 15km warp bubble. And delete all the BMs near the gate, just to tidy up. And maybe just cap the number of BMs you can have too.

The need to travel is directly linked to the ability to do so. Now, I can set up a contract which says 'bring me some bane torps for my mission raven', and I think this is very cool. Sadly pointless though, since the effort vs. return is skewed.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:47:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Wild Rho on 30/11/2006 10:51:12
Originally by: Jim McGregor


Well, I cant speak for everyone, but it was very easy for me to go to the forum channel and find a bookmark seller that sold regions for 30 mill each. And people will always look to their own good in the game before looking to the good for the database. Now with Warp to 0, we get both.


Yes but it cost you 30mil for them. You basically paid someone to make them for you. Now even that small level of interaction is gone. There is no cost for fast travel.
I disliked insta bms as well but at least they weren't free (whether you paid in isk or time).

Originally by: Jim McGregor

Yes, instas change everything compared to not having instas, but Warp to 0 change nothing compare to instas. People already had loads of instas, so for them nothing changes.


Well as before they may have had instas for certain routes now they have instas for everything, anywhere, anytime.
Good or bad is a matter of perspective which is fair enough but for me that's not a good thing.

Originally by: Jim McGregor

Yes, but people cant fit for speed when they are trying to find someone to fight. What are they going to do when they find someone - tell them to hold on while they dock and refit for combat?


If people want to move fast for combat they fly fast ships.
It's all about balance (or should be).
If you want alot of firepower and damage potential you should have to sacrfice speed and mobility, if you want more speed and mobility you pay the price with less firepower. If you want a fleet operating far from home you should have to setup some form of depot (whether we're talking about supplies in a nearby station, a pos or a collection of anchored cans at an ss).
With warp to zero you get everything. Aside from the few seconds difference in alignment times, a fleet of BS moves as fast as a cruiser/frig pack.

Don't take it personally, I don't have it in for anyone who likes warp to zero specifically but I'll always be against instas in any form simply because I see them as a means of negating a balancing aspect of Eve.

EDIT: typo goblins struck again.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:51:00 - [23]
 


Wild Rho, im not taking it personally in any way, its a nice discussion... people can disagree without flaming eachother. :)

But your arguments are still very much in relation to how Eve would be without instas, and thats not how the game works today. If you think Warp to 0 should cost money, then say so. I think everybody would just pay and get it over with, but it would create problems for the newbies who cant afford it. Eve would be very unfair, since it would give advantages to rich people. And thats basicly what you have with instas.

So I would even go as far to say that Warp to 0 levels the playing field for everybody.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:52:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

So I would even go as far to say that Warp to 0 levels the playing field for everybody.



Ah HA! Getting rid of instas would ALSO level the playing field, just in a different way Wink

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.30 10:53:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho
Originally by: Jim McGregor

So I would even go as far to say that Warp to 0 levels the playing field for everybody.



Ah HA! Getting rid of instas would ALSO level the playing field, just in a different way Wink


I know. Wink

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:10:00 - [26]
 

For thoose who dont like wtz, use warp to 15km...

Anyway, I would never go into a hostile area without bm`s.
And if they took away warp to 0km and no insta, who the **** would bother moving 20 freighters 60+ jumps through 0.0 space... It would take an entire day just move the ****.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:26:00 - [27]
 

To be fair, a couple interceptors serving as slingshots could get your freighters where they're going in about the same time as instas, with a bit more coordination and effort.

I'm in favor of warp to 0. Nonconsensual PvP gets put on a pedestal in EvE, like it's your unalienable right to gank newbies at gates in 0.4. It's not. It's a cheap trick, and I'd like to see gate and station sentries beefed up in low-sec empire to make it harder to do. If you want unrestricted PvP, go to 0.0. Don't cry about the blobs. Four HACs in a 0.2 is just as much a blob to that hauler as fifty battleships in 0.0 are to your HACs. There's no finesse or style in either operation.

In high-sec, you only fight with a formal war. In lowsec, you can fight at belts, planets, moons and complexes, as well as safespots. In 0.0, the only rule is that there are no rules. That's the way it ought to be, and every time some smack-talking ganktard cries a river over the tragic loss of his profession, God takes his name off the "tough guy" list and puts it down with the sissies.

If we'd lost instas and every gate got a 15km radius warp disruption bubble around it instead, and all the carebears cried, you'd be in these forums telling them to adapt and learn to fight, because that's what EvE's all about.

So up your nose with a rubber hose, you just don't like having to do a little work.

Bill Shankly
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:27:00 - [28]
 

Be against itr all you want,
its here now, no getting rid.

Varis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:36:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: TZeer
For thoose who dont like wtz, use warp to 15km...

Anyway, I would never go into a hostile area without bm`s.
And if they took away warp to 0km and no insta, who the **** would bother moving 20 freighters 60+ jumps through 0.0 space... It would take an entire day just move the ****.


umm.. thats the point.
you wouldn't bother - only the dedicated would.

Malus Phasmatis
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:36:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Taurequis
It just changes the fact your not going to be able to gank that 1 noob every couple of hours who gets to your gatecamp (which you forgot to bubble) without instas. Big deal.

Buy a bubble. They are on the market now.

Taur
And then buy a bookmark set for 300km off-gate bookmarks to scout each gate before warping directly to it.

We're just replacing one bookmark set with another.

I don't know where this "everyone has bm's anyway" crap came from, I've caught numerous people in their own home regions and systems without bookmarks, leading to a merciless ganking.

Personally, I'd be happier with bookmarks removed within 100km of gate. Anything less, and you just make longer range BM's (e.g. warp to it at 50 instead of 15 or 20). And if you have something heavy and awkward to move around, like a freighter, have an interceptor warp ahead and make a slingshot for gang warping. When that's not an option, fit an MWD, or accept that you're flying a slow ship and *omg* it's going to take you a while to get places in a slow ship, and dangerous places are not good places for slow, defensless ships.


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