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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.11.30 01:39:00 - [1]
 

First off, how do I define "overpowered" ?
My definition is (so far) "not worth fitting anything else instead".
The (very short) list of those rigs only spans a short list of modules so far (feel free to add some).

1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)

Can fit 3 on any T1/faction ship, those 3 give +62.83% cap recharge rate.
Simply put, this combo on top of proper module setup can out-tank just about any other possible (comparable) active tank, with no penalities whatsoever, and also gives a lot of "free cap" to either lessen NOSage or supplement offensive capabilities.
You can argue a cap injector and damage mods would do you more good, but considering fights take longer "nowadays" and the fact damage rigs are stacking-nerfed, it's simply unfeasable in comparison.

2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback)
Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships (especially those with shield resist bonuses), it's a godsend.
Personally, I wouldn't use any other rig than this. Well, the T2 version instead, maybe. Har.


Feel free to argue what other rigs might be considered "overpowered", but at lest DO NOT forget to factor in (and describe) the situation it is used in (and the corresponding ship setup).

Daos Leghki
Paxton Industries
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.30 01:46:00 - [2]
 

I'll say this, although I don't agree with it. People are going to claim that using the rig at all is a drawback.


Matuk Grymwal
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2006.11.30 02:09:00 - [3]
 

Have you tested that 3xCCU setup, or is that theoretical? In the early stages I certainly found I could load up on rigs, but towards the end of testing as they got tweaked I found it harder to get 3 rigs installed. My ships were generally running out of calibration after 2 rigs, requiring that the 3rd slot empty.

Dave Tehsulei
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.30 02:11:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 30/11/2006 02:12:05


Just about all the rigs need looking at,

tanking and fitting rigs were boosted just before kali went live and had very little play testing


Mudkest
Adventurers
Matari Visionary Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.30 02:15:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Mudkest on 30/11/2006 02:17:11
seen that lovely rig in electronics that lower the cpu requirment of modules that require electronics upgrades?
should also be looked at, but not cause of overpowderedness :)

Vantick Iscod
Norton AntiBot
Posted - 2006.11.30 02:19:00 - [6]
 

Check out cargo expander rigs.

40k+ cargo hold in an Itty 5.

Ariel Dawn
Posted - 2006.11.30 04:06:00 - [7]
 

Just some questions concerning diminishing returns with rigs.

Do rigs stack with eachother?
Do rigs stack with modules providing similar bonuses?

Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.30 04:13:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/11/2006 04:13:49
Originally by: Akita T

1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)

Is it really -15%? Or is it -15 seconds?

For some reason I'm thinking that if they meant -15%, it would have read something like:
Cap recharge time bonus: 0.15%
Seems to be consistent with other numbers in CCP's item data sheets, anyway.

EDIT: I didn't test this out on Sisi, btw, so I'm speculating as much as anyone who wasn't on test.

ramptrick
Caldari
Art of War
Posted - 2006.11.30 04:33:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
First off, how do I define "overpowered" ?
My definition is (so far) "not worth fitting anything else instead".
The (very short) list of those rigs only spans a short list of modules so far (feel free to add some).

1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)

Can fit 3 on any T1/faction ship, those 3 give +62.83% cap recharge rate.
Simply put, this combo on top of proper module setup can out-tank just about any other possible (comparable) active tank, with no penalities whatsoever, and also gives a lot of "free cap" to either lessen NOSage or supplement offensive capabilities.
You can argue a cap injector and damage mods would do you more good, but considering fights take longer "nowadays" and the fact damage rigs are stacking-nerfed, it's simply unfeasable in comparison.

2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback)
Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships (especially those with shield resist bonuses), it's a godsend.
Personally, I wouldn't use any other rig than this. Well, the T2 version instead, maybe. Har.


Feel free to argue what other rigs might be considered "overpowered", but at lest DO NOT forget to factor in (and describe) the situation it is used in (and the corresponding ship setup).


i tried this on the test server and you cant fit 3 of all one type of rig to your ship!! 2 max for each type..

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.11.30 05:03:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Just some questions concerning diminishing returns with rigs.
Do rigs stack with eachother?
Do rigs stack with modules providing similar bonuses?


As Jiekon already said (in one of the threads from the deleted "Revelations" forum): yes, and yes.
But ONLY for the ATTRIBUTES that have the "stacking nerfable" flag.

So, if one certain attribute (like cap recharge time, shield recharge time, CPU use, grid use, speed, etc) does NOT have that "flag", none of the modules nor rigs affecting it will be stacking nerfed.
All other attributes that DO have the "stacking nerf" flag will get stacking nerfs for all modules or rigs affecting them. That includes damage mods, scan resolution and so on and so forth.

Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Akita T

1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)

Is it really -15%? Or is it -15 seconds?

The display inconsistencies in module attributes never cease to amaze me... a 15% reduction in a recharge time might get mentioned as "-15" or "-15%" or "x0.85" or "x0.85%" or even "-0.15" or "-0.15%".
For this specific rig, yes, it is a 15% reduction in cap recharge time... the rig has the SAME effect as a cap recharger 1.

Originally by: Matuk Grymwal
Have you tested that 3xCCU setup, or is that theoretical? In the early stages I certainly found I could load up on rigs, but towards the end of testing as they got tweaked I found it harder to get 3 rigs installed. My ships were generally running out of calibration after 2 rigs, requiring that the 3rd slot empty.


Calibration points on T1 ships: 400
Calibration points on faction ships: 350
CCCI calibration usage: 100

You can fit 3 of them and still have leftover calibration (but no slots).
The Tech2 version takes 150 calibration points and gives a -20% cap recharge time reduction... so you COULD fit 2 T2s and one T1 on a T1 ship, or 1 T2 and 2 T1s on a faction ship.

Kldraina
Posted - 2006.11.30 06:45:00 - [11]
 

Unless I managed to missread it (which is entirely possible) the Core Defence Field Purger II took a mere 75 calibration, for a 25% reduction in shield recharge time. This seems way too good to me. Even the Shield Power Relay II is only a 24% reduction, and it has a much more severe penalty in my opinion.

Tehyarec
Silverleaf Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.30 07:15:00 - [12]
 

Is the capacitor recharge rig good? Yes. Overpowered? I don't see why, because everyone can use it just the same, plus better cap recharge might not be better than putting on damage-related mods. After all what good is good cap recharge at the end of the day if the other guy does so insane DPS that your repaired HP per second simply can't keep up, even if it does take longer to chew through all the added HP? Blasterships with MFS IIs and damage rigs come to mind. You can get some pretty sick DPS.

The cap recharge rigs definitely will help a lot for missions though.

Ok, granted that maybe there COULD be some penalty added for the rig. But I don't think a 10% base penalty for, for example, CPU, would make sense, it'd be too severe in turn.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.30 08:58:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2006 08:58:31
“2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback)
Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships”

Have you compared this on a passive tank to the other shield rigs on an active shield tank? You should still find the active tank is better so its not overpowerd. Though thats how it feels not ran the math.

I know on my Eos there isn’t much difference between active amour tanking or Passive shield. Active is better but they are pretty much the same. So I dont see the rigs makeing much diffrance both will get better.

The Core Defence Field Purger makes you take more damage and when you add the +sig from the rig with the +sig from extenders I don’t think its overpower.

Has anyone got the rigs built yet? I am looking to buy at least 10 Core Defence Field Purger and will even pay for the blueprint and give it to the builder.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:49:00 - [14]
 

I am guessing that the missile exp radius rig might be 'slightly' overpowered as well, seeing how two of them in combination with GMP 5 and the 5% implant allow you to drop cruise missile exp radius to 158 m....

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.30 11:52:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 11:52:21

People will get slaughtered out there to setups people will keep a secret. And even when they do manage to take the rigged ship down, the rigs are not on the kill mails and will remain a secret.

So I fully expect posts like "I got killed by a stabber in my Rohk" etc.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:18:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/11/2006 12:27:46
Originally by: Tehyarec
Is the capacitor recharge rig good? Yes. Overpowered? I don't see why
[...]After all what good is good cap recharge at the end of the day if the other guy does so insane DPS that your repaired HP per second simply can't keep up, even if it does take longer to chew through all the added HP?
Blasterships with MFS IIs and damage rigs come to mind. You can get some pretty sick DPS.

No you can't. Ever tried adding a 4th or 5th MFS ? Know how much that helps to your DPS ? Right, almost not at all.
Want to know wha 3 MFS and 3 hybrid damage and/or RoF rigs would do ? More or less the same as 4-5 MFSs. But with a huge increase in weapon fitting requirements.
Damage mods AND damage rigs son't mix, just like you don't use more than 3 damage mods (unless maybe it's an extreme fleet setup, still I could think of better slot usage than a 4th MFS).

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I am guessing that the missile exp radius rig might be 'slightly' overpowered as well, seeing how two of them in combination with GMP 5 and the 5% implant allow you to drop cruise missile exp radius to 158 m....



Hmmz, you're right, there's no reason to assume missile explosion radius is a stacking-nerfed attribute, so this might just be one of the "overpowered" rigs (but only for dedicated missile users).

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2006 08:58:31
“2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback)
Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships”

Have you compared this on a passive tank to the other shield rigs on an active shield tank?
You should still find the active tank is better so its not overpowerd. Though thats how it feels not ran the math.

The Core Defence Field Purger makes you take more damage and when you add the +sig from the rig with the +sig from extenders I don’t think its overpower.
Has anyone got the rigs built yet? I am looking to buy at least 10 Core Defence Field Purger and will even pay for the blueprint and give it to the builder.


You mean, compare an active shield tank vs a passive shield tank on the same ship ?
BCs and CBCs would be just about the only types of ships where this is an issue, and probably the only ones coming slightly on top on active shielding might be the Minmatar ones. For all others, I guess passive shieldtank should be better. Well, let's do the math anyway (back in a few minutes with it).

As for the sig penality... with L5 shield rigging and T2 rig, you get -25% shield recharge time (+33.33% recharge rate) and a mere +5% sig radius per module (+15.7625% with all three rigs).
That's +137% shield recharge rate (i.e. x2.37) for a laughable +15.7% sig radius increase.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:23:00 - [17]
 

Akita T, I'd say that just about any rig that gives something for nothing is overpowered. This means that you can a) fit a full rack of the rigs and b) their drawbacks do not detract from their intent. A rig can also be situationally (OK, it's not a proper word, but...) overpowered.

Not overpowered.
For this reason a armour amount rig can not be overpowered since it's drawback punishes velocity, making the ships the rig would otherwise be ideal to (close range ships) prefere other rigs.

Situationally overpowered.
I believe the speed rigs offer ship velocity in trade for armour amount. While it can hardly be said to be overpowered on an armour reliant ship, at the same time a ship which shield tanks/extends would not care about armour levels and it would then be overpowered.

Overpowered.
Perfect example in OP.

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2006 08:58:31
“2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback)
Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships”

Have you compared this on a passive tank to the other shield rigs on an active shield tank? You should still find the active tank is better so its not overpowerd. Though thats how it feels not ran the math.

I'm afraid that logic deduction is wrong as it assume that one unit of passive recharge is of the same value as one uit of active recharge.

Quote:
The Core Defence Field Purger makes you take more damage and when you add the +sig from the rig with the +sig from extenders I don’t think its overpower.

I would say that in most cases a signature radius penalty is by no means a harsh penalty. I've seen no implementations of this penalty where it is of significant proportion.
Although, the Core Defence Field Purger does have a harsher penalty than, say, a Shield Extender (which' penalty does little to deter "over-plating").

Nevertheless a 30 to 40 meter signature radius increase on a battlecruiser makes hardly no difference in practice.

Scholard
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:41:00 - [18]
 

I'm sure I am being a bit dim here, but can someone point me at a Rig FAQ or summary, even a list of rigs. The patch notes have linkages to everything (Exploration, Invention etc) except rigs. There is a separate forum thread for each new concept - except rigs. I can't even find them in the Item database. I'm sure all this must be here somewhere but I have spent longer than I should have and still not found it.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.30 12:47:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2006 12:49:41
“Nevertheless a 30 to 40 meter signature radius increase on a battlecruiser makes hardly no difference in practice.”
That depends on how the stacking order works. If you add the sig from the extender then the x% from the rig it could make a difference. Though if its rig first then extender its not as bad. Anyone know which order it is?





“You mean, compare an active shield tank vs a passive shield tank on the same ship ?”
Yes, if the passive tanks still come out worse then an active tank setup then the rig is not overpowered. Even if you compare passive tank on one ship to an active tank on another ship of the same class, as long as its comparable in power there isn’t a problem. Unless passive tanks are suddenly due to this rig tanking 100’s more DPS then active tanks then I don’t see it as over powered.




“I'm afraid that logic deduction is wrong as it assume that one unit of passive recharge is of the same value as one uit of active recharge.”
The logic isn’t wrong. I don’t look at each part of the ship and say that’s weak and that’s overpowered. Look at the whole ship with everything working together.

What matters is how a full active tank setup compares to a full passive tank setup. Anyway the passive tanking system needs a good look at by one of the devs and it sounded like its on the books for a rewrite/change. Passive tanking is no longer what it used to be and I miss the good old days with the old passive tanks. Not this new styles we now use.

Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:04:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:06:13
just tried to fit 3 of the cap recharge rigs (T1) on a rokh. The rokh was complete empty, besides the Rigslots i fit in one after the other.

The outcome: Base 9000 cap 1125 sec rechargetime
1 Rig: 9000 - 956 sec (17,6%)
2 Rig´s: 9000 - 812 sec (17,7%)
3 Rig´s: 9000 - 690 sec (17,7%)

so yes it is possible to fit 3 of same category on your ship. And as you see, they dont have any stacking penalty on them.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:04:00 - [21]
 

Please only use t1 rigs for balance calcs, the t2 rigs are going to be as rare and expensive as officer mods with the way rig building and invention are today.

Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:07:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Hoshi
Please only use t1 rigs for balance calcs, the t2 rigs are going to be as rare and expensive as officer mods with the way rig building and invention are today.


I used the T1 version only!

Joseph Polaski
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:07:00 - [23]
 

What about that one rig under energy grid rigs that gives a 10+ PG to a ship? I didn't see any drawbacks and it seems way too useful for frigates.....

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Akita T
First off, how do I define "overpowered" ?
My definition is (so far) "not worth fitting anything else instead".
The (very short) list of those rigs only spans a short list of modules so far (feel free to add some).

1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)

Can fit 3 on any T1/faction ship, those 3 give +62.83% cap recharge rate.
Simply put, this combo on top of proper module setup can out-tank just about any other possible (comparable) active tank, with no penalities whatsoever, and also gives a lot of "free cap" to either lessen NOSage or supplement offensive capabilities.
You can argue a cap injector and damage mods would do you more good, but considering fights take longer "nowadays" and the fact damage rigs are stacking-nerfed, it's simply unfeasable in comparison.

2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback)
Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships (especially those with shield resist bonuses), it's a godsend.
Personally, I wouldn't use any other rig than this. Well, the T2 version instead, maybe. Har.


Feel free to argue what other rigs might be considered "overpowered", but at lest DO NOT forget to factor in (and describe) the situation it is used in (and the corresponding ship setup).


I do recall reading in the dev blogs that you can only fit one rig of each type.
Or that you can, but they give no benefit.
You could fit the CCC I and CCC II, in the same ship though.
Anyways, couldn't find the article, but I'll search a bit and put a link here when I find it.

Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:21:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:21:26
Originally by: Laboratus
I do recall reading in the dev blogs that you can only fit one rig of each type.
Or that you can, but they give no benefit.
You could fit the CCC I and CCC II, in the same ship though.
Anyways, couldn't find the article, but I'll search a bit and put a link here when I find it.


Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:29:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Loka


Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.


Kewl.
Triple drone damage mods, here I come!

ZelRox
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:32:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Loka
Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:21:26
Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.


Shocked at setup YARRRR!!

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:36:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Loka
Originally by: Hoshi
Please only use t1 rigs for balance calcs, the t2 rigs are going to be as rare and expensive as officer mods with the way rig building and invention are today.

I used the T1 version only!

Yeah I know but there where lots of other people here starting to do their calcs with t2 rigs.

Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:39:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: ZelRox
Originally by: Loka
Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:21:26
Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.


Shocked at setup YARRRR!!


Hey its not l33t. Just tried if its possible to have 8 425mm T2 fitted with an active XLarge T2 tank ^^. And yes it was.

Worst resistance was around 70 with my decend shield/caldari skills btw. Someone with good shield and caldari skills should squeeze more out of it.

Ofc for fleet oyu will have put some SB II on it. As i said just wanted to see how an active 425mm II setup would perform and how long i can run the XLarge II Booster, which gives me 200 hp/s ;) on that setup

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.30 13:46:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Loka
Originally by: ZelRox
Originally by: Loka
Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:21:26
Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.


Shocked at setup YARRRR!!


Hey its not l33t. Just tried if its possible to have 8 425mm T2 fitted with an active XLarge T2 tank ^^. And yes it was.

Worst resistance was around 70 with my decend shield/caldari skills btw. Someone with good shield and caldari skills should squeeze more out of it.

Ofc for fleet oyu will have put some SB II on it. As i said just wanted to see how an active 425mm II setup would perform and how long i can run the XLarge II Booster, which gives me 200 hp/s ;) on that setup


How long can you sustain cap with that?


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