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blankseplocked Rig stacking issues/inconsistencies: intentional or bug ?
 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.11.23 22:36:00 - [1]
 

Ok, so we so far know a few things about rig stacking, namely:

- resists rigs are stacking-nerfed ALONGSIDE hardners, so in other words if you fit resists rigs, there's little or no point in adding hardners for the same resist, as it would be practically useless

- weapon damage rigs also get a stacking penality "together" with damage-enhancing modules, so again, using both types becomes kind of pointless pretty fast

- surprisingly, hitpoint % bonus rigs ALSO get a stacking penality (personally, a "wtf" moment when I found that out)... in other words, while the first "+10% armor" rig will give you the extra 10% armor, the second will only give you +8.7% armor (or was it +8.6%?)

- the shocker, however, was when I used "recharge time" boosting rigs... guess what, they ARE NOT stacking nerfed at all, they give the full effect (pretty much the same way modules affecting recharge times are not stacking nerfed)
___

So all in all... is this all intended, or some of the rigs are "bugged" ?
If some are bugged, which ones are them ?

Is it the extra HP% ones ?
And should they not be stacking nerfed, just like their module counterparts ?

Or is it the recharge time ones, and they should be nerfed too ?
Then why not also stacking-nerf recharge-time modules too ?

So many questions... so little feedback Twisted Evil

Aeaus
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2006.11.23 22:38:00 - [2]
 

I'd guess the recharge time ones are the bugged ones. Although I don't think that Rigs should be stacked with hardeners, rather with each other.

Fliewatuet
Angelus dos Business
Posted - 2006.11.23 22:42:00 - [3]
 

i suggest you first play around with cap rechargers and cap power relays on TQ. Bonus on cap recharge was never penalized like damage mods or hardeners. So i would think that it isn't supposed to change with rigs. Rolling Eyes

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.23 22:42:00 - [4]
 

Looks exactly like the comparable modules.

CPRs are NOT stacking nerfed.
DMG mods ARE stacking nerfed.
RES mods ARE stacking nerfed.
+% HP mods ARE stacking nerfed (heaven knows why, they're mostly useless anyway)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.11.23 22:46:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/11/2006 22:53:55
Originally by: Ithildin
Looks exactly like the comparable modules.
+% HP mods ARE stacking nerfed (heaven knows why, they're mostly useless anyway)

Ok, now this would be my second "wtf" moment then Twisted Evil

Hey, I don't mind... actually, I'll LOVE the Drake/Ferox with two *0.9 shield recharge time rigs and a *1.1 max shield rig. Or two *0.85 recharge time T2 rigs and no third rig at all. And of course, 4x SPR IIs in lows, just for the heck of it, "because I can".

Soo... 3 months until Vulture-ready *squee*

It's good being a passive shield tanker in Kali, isn't it ?
Hmm, that one plus the "upcoming" Crystal set change in (slight) favour of passive shield tanking... /me makes a "summon Pottsey for rejoicing ceremony" ritual dance.


Personally, I prefer my stuff pre-nerfed rather than post-nerfed.
So if you have to cry "overpowered" and "nerf", please do it now rather than later Twisted Evil

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.24 17:05:00 - [6]
 

<----- joins in the dance singing

By the way shield recharge modules are never effected by stacking. So it makes sense rigs are not either.

Mr Banzai
Caldari Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2006.11.25 04:37:00 - [7]
 

Could some dev please comment on this, is it intentional that certain rigs are stack-nerfed with regular modules or it's a bug? And if bug, was it fixed in upcoming patch?

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2006.11.25 04:43:00 - [8]
 

As an earlier poster said they are in line with the mods they are based on.. If the resist ones were not penalized you'd get some ships with near invulnerabilty to all incoming fire..

Mr Banzai
Caldari Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2006.11.25 20:54:00 - [9]
 

There wouldn't be invulnerable ships from resist rigs really, but my real problem isn't tanking. I'm more worried about damage rigs, when i tested them last time they was getting same stack penalty along with regular modules. If this stays as it is, then damage rigs (+damage and +rof) are just pointless. It's so much easier/faster/cheaper/etc to throw in additional BCS (heatsink, stabilizer) and get both damage and rof with no penalties.
I'm asking to be sure where to invest my time and money when Revelations go live, not really looking to work few months just to find out that it was vain effort.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.11.25 22:28:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Akita T
- the shocker, however, was when I used "recharge time" boosting rigs... guess what, they ARE NOT stacking nerfed at all, they give the full effect (pretty much the same way modules affecting recharge times are not stacking nerfed)


Cap rechargers, and cap power relays, don't get stacking penalties, so it's natural that their rigs wouldn't?

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.11.25 22:29:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
As an earlier poster said they are in line with the mods they are based on.. If the resist ones were not penalized you'd get some ships with near invulnerabilty to all incoming fire..


Like Minny AFs and HACs vs EM damage.Very Happy

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2006.11.26 08:37:00 - [12]
 

You guys are missing it, EVERYTHING in game is stacking nerfed.

Very simple example

Lets add two cap power relays to the merlin
My current skills it has a recharge time of 140 secs

Add the first cap relay and it takes 20% just like the mods says for a total of 112 secs recharge time

Adding the second one should give me a recharge time of 84 seconds if they werent stacked... but low and behold I only get 90 seconds.

Myth debunked.

The formula works like this

1st mod takes off that ammount of recharge time
2nd mod takes off that ammount of recharge time that the first one had
in this case 20% of 112 which gives me the 90 secs I show in game.

Mar Idoun
Caldari
R.E.D Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.26 08:53:00 - [13]
 

everything is either artificially stacked by code, or it's stacked via basic algebra.

as for rigs being useless, if I can free up a mid slot by using a shield tanking rig then that is pretty sick. I can make a better tank or add ECM or whatever, it really let's you flex your creative muscles when it comes to set ups.

Rafein
Posted - 2006.11.26 10:48:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Rafein on 26/11/2006 10:53:21
Originally by: Mr Banzai
There wouldn't be invulnerable ships from resist rigs really, but my real problem isn't tanking. I'm more worried about damage rigs, when i tested them last time they was getting same stack penalty along with regular modules. If this stays as it is, then damage rigs (+damage and +rof) are just pointless. It's so much easier/faster/cheaper/etc to throw in additional BCS (heatsink, stabilizer) and get both damage and rof with no penalties.
I'm asking to be sure where to invest my time and money when Revelations go live, not really looking to work few months just to find out that it was vain effort.


They do share stacking penalty with NOD, and it is intentional (I'll find the post in a bit)

Their main strength is they can allow you to free up a slot for something else. Through a Damage and ROF rig on a Raven, and free up a low for a different module.

Edit: Said I'd find it for you. linky

Mr Banzai
Caldari Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2006.11.26 23:23:00 - [15]
 

Thankee for the link.
However you didn't convince me that they have any use. In your example if i throw in damage and rof rigs (through training skills, salvaging for many hours, spending isk for bp and manufacturing, you can see that it doesn't come easy) - i'll end up with a replacement for single BCS-II (actually BCS gives slightly better bonus). It will free up single low slot, which i'll have to use for cpu upgrade, cause rigs boosted launcher needs up.
Oh well, at least now i know not to bother with damage/rof rigs, unless the situation changes.

Snub Disphenoid
Posted - 2006.11.27 00:00:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Riley Craven
You guys are missing it, EVERYTHING in game is stacking nerfed.

Very simple example

Lets add two cap power relays to the merlin
My current skills it has a recharge time of 140 secs

Add the first cap relay and it takes 20% just like the mods says for a total of 112 secs recharge time

Adding the second one should give me a recharge time of 84 seconds if they werent stacked... but low and behold I only get 90 seconds.

Myth debunked.

The formula works like this

1st mod takes off that ammount of recharge time
2nd mod takes off that ammount of recharge time that the first one had
in this case 20% of 112 which gives me the 90 secs I show in game.

You fail to understand how stacking penalties are applied. Your example has only its native penalty due to the nature of the mathematics involved, other modules have an additional, artificial penalty.

Check this thread about armour resists for an example of the latter type.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.11.27 11:13:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Riley Craven
You guys are missing it, EVERYTHING in game is stacking nerfed.

My current skills it has a recharge time of 140 secs
first cap relay and it takes 20% just like the mods says for a total of 112 secs recharge time
Adding the second one should give me a recharge time of 84 seconds if they werent stacked... but low and behold I only get 90 seconds.

Myth debunked.


-20% recharge time is the bonus that's ALWAYS used for these types of modules
So you get 140 sec * 0.8 * 0.8 = 89,6 sec (rounds to 90 sec on display)
Add a 3rd one and you get 71,68 sec (rounds to 72 sec on display)
Add a 4th one (if you had the slots, that is) and you get 57,344 (rounds to 57 sec).

The recharge RATE (i.e. "cap per second") increase for EACH and EVERY extra module added is EXACTLY +25% compared to previous... so adding four of them will give you *1.25^4 = aprox *2.4414 cap/second compared to "no modules". Or, in other words, a +144% increase in cap recharge rate. Not bad for four -20% recharge rate modules, eh ?


Now, WOULD it have been "stacking nerfed", you would have gotten a 20% reduction for first module only, only about 17% for the second, about 11% for the third and a measly 5% or so for the fourth.
Your recharge times would have been displayed as 90, 75, 66 and 63 respectively.
Your cap recharge RATE would have been only *2.2222, so +122% instead of the (non-stacking-nerfed) +144% of before.

Cap recharge, shield recharge, same thing.

CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2006.11.27 11:44:00 - [18]
 

Stacking nerf is put on the attribute the nerf affects. So for example damageMultiplier is stacking nerfed so all modules (rigs included) that do affect it are stacking nerfed together. Shield recharge rate and capacitor recharge rate have never been stacking nerfed so obviously rigs don't affect them.

Stacking nerf is applied differently for different modifiers so there might be stuff that is stacking nerfed but the modifier from rigs is stacking nerfed separately from modules. This is a bug and will be fixed.

I don't have any idea why armor hitpoints is stacking nerfed as shield capacity is not, I'd classify that as a bug as well.


 

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