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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.24 12:55:00 - [181]
 

“If you cut the Passive Tank feature of Caldari what remains?”
Caldari shouldn’t be passive tanking anyway it’s a Gallente thing. Caldari should be active tanking. I miss the good old days (pre BC) where only Gallente passive tanked.

Long live Gallente. When the next war comes you Caldari better watch out.

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.24 13:29:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Pottsey

Caldari shouldn’t be passive tanking anyway it’s a Gallente thing. Caldari should be active tanking. I miss the good old days (pre BC) where only Gallente passive tanked.

Long live Gallente. When the next war comes you Caldari better watch out.



Caldari should also have a turret raven, be almost as fast and agile as minmatar as in the old days...

But now caldari and minmatar are the main shield races and gallente and amarr are the armor races.

Tessle Aesis
Amarr
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.24 13:58:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Tessle Aesis on 24/11/2006 13:58:56
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: Tessle Aesis

where did you see T2 Battleships? You are confusing Tier-3 Battlships.


Acutally not...

Tech 2 battleships, cruisers and frigates get 12.5% increase

But I'm sure tux was just abit quick on the trigger thereRazz


I think he did copy and past of T1 line, updated the % amount of HP for T2 ships (Cruiser/Frigates) and forgot to cut Battleship from the line.

Tessle Aesis
Amarr
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.24 14:01:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
“If you cut the Passive Tank feature of Caldari what remains?”
Caldari shouldn’t be passive tanking anyway it’s a Gallente thing. Caldari should be active tanking. I miss the good old days (pre BC) where only Gallente passive tanked.

Long live Gallente. When the next war comes you Caldari better watch out.



i have no intention to join an OT discussion about Passive Tanking, yes can use a Dominix for Passive Tanking but that's all... Caldari have ships really specialized in that, with bonus on shield resistances, also with a good amount of mid slots.

Hebachica
Posted - 2006.11.24 14:03:00 - [185]
 

Let the energy draining fest begin :D

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.24 14:49:00 - [186]
 

Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 24/11/2006 14:49:45
Originally by: Tuxford

Originally by: Hakera

4) Sentry/Concord/Faction police damage - boosted inline with HP changes?


No we haven't done that. Sentries aren't really that hard to tank and Concord will still take you down, just takes a bit longer.



So 0.4 will just become more of a gankers paradise?

Don't get me wrong, I am happy that there is less-secure space out there. But at the moment there is no difference between 0.4 and 0.1, so people just get ganked in 0.4's. With more and more people flying T2 ships and more and more hitpoints in a HP buff, I think the problem is only going to get worse.

Could we perhaps see a boost to sentry guns in 0.4, and say a nerf to those in 0.1?

Edit: been spending all my life, living in a gankers paradise heh.

Tessle Aesis
Amarr
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.24 16:22:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: FireFoxx80
Could we perhaps see a boost to sentry guns in 0.4, and say a nerf to those in 0.1?


This is a very nice and good idea. Not only increase number of police / patrolling forces but also strength while raising the security level.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.24 17:01:00 - [188]
 

“yes can use a Dominix for Passive Tanking but that's all... Caldari have ships really specialized in that, with bonus on shield resistances, also with a good amount of mid slots.”
Well originally passive tanking was based around low slots not mid slots and it’s not just the Dominix but pretty much all Gallente ships can be passive tanked even the Stealth Bomber. Caldari are not better at it they don’t even hold any of the records the reason being they dont have enough low slots.

A lot of Caldari pilots like they think they are the only ones that can do it but they are wrong and forgot which race they copied off. They copied our railguns and they copied our tanking method.

Kelhund
Posted - 2006.11.24 17:29:00 - [189]
 

and yet ya'all are still mad when we beat you with your own tactics...... :P Aside from the banter, I'd like to see what new passive tank setups you come up with after the release of Kali with the module and HP changes

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.24 17:47:00 - [190]
 

Didnt read the whole thread. But i read the blog.

No mention of all the discussions about roles for the new BS and the apparent lack of any for all the BS except the Rockh.

I was just curious if you guys had any opinions on the subject

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.11.24 19:33:00 - [191]
 

I'd like to know about 4 things:

- Blasters (concept is to kill before unsustainable tank fails, this is even harder now with longer battles)
- Deimos (just check out the thread.. it can neither tank nor gank, sucky MWD bonus, needs 4th med to fit "now" mandatory cap booster)
- Hyperion (Tux says its fine and then reduces stats even more, it was already slightly underpowered now its closing to become useless)
- Cap consupmtion (cap consuming weapons "hybrids/lasers" dont have much advantage over non-cap consuming weapons "missiles/projectiles/drones", neutralizer will be standart issue on non-cap conusmers to WTFPWN the cap consumers, longer combat duration makes this gap even bigger)


Well if I'm forced to train for another race.. I'm outta here!

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.24 20:46:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Pottsey

Well originally passive tanking was based around low slots not mid slots and it’s not just the Dominix but pretty much all Gallente ships can be passive tanked even the Stealth Bomber. Caldari are not better at it they don’t even hold any of the records the reason being they dont have enough low slots.

A lot of Caldari pilots like they think they are the only ones that can do it but they are wrong and forgot which race they copied off. They copied our railguns and they copied our tanking method.



Blasters used to be gallente while railguns used to be caldari, so actually gallente copied caldari rails.
I'm not sure where you got that gallente used to be a shield tanking race though?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.24 20:59:00 - [193]
 

“I'm not sure where you got that gallente used to be a shield tanking race though?”
Sorry I didn’t mean to sound like Gallente are a shield tanking race they are a low slot tanking race either active tanking or passive shield or passive plates. Back before BC’s came out pretty much the only passive shield tanks around where Gallente based on shield recharge. It was only after about 4 or 5 different boosts to shield extenders and after battlecruisers came out that you started seeing Caldari ships passive tanked. One of the things I miss is no one seems use T1 or T2 shield recharge’s anymore as the boosts to extenders made them obsolete.

That’s why I don’t like seeing Gallente shouldn’t/cannot passive shield tank. They where doing it something like a year before Caldari pilots starting doing it. I forget the precise timing of all the extender changes and BC’s coming out. Might have been longer or less then 1 year.





“Blasters used to be gallente while railguns used to be caldari, so actually gallente copied caldari rails.”
Did they? I thought Gallente had bonus to railguns since day one of the game going live. Or did the bonus to hybrid turrets get changed at some point from blasters to hybrid? I don’t recall any Caldari ships having railgun bonus either back in the past but I wasn’t around at the very start of Eve and when I did start I only looked at Gallente ships. Guess I was wrong but now you got me curious. What where the old ships and which supported which weapon systems?

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.25 00:25:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
“I'm not sure where you got that gallente used to be a shield tanking race though?”
Sorry I didn’t mean to sound like Gallente are a shield tanking race they are a low slot tanking race either active tanking or passive shield or passive plates. Back before BC’s came out pretty much the only passive shield tanks around where Gallente based on shield recharge. It was only after about 4 or 5 different boosts to shield extenders and after battlecruisers came out that you started seeing Caldari ships passive tanked. One of the things I miss is no one seems use T1 or T2 shield recharge’s anymore as the boosts to extenders made them obsolete.

That’s why I don’t like seeing Gallente shouldn’t/cannot passive shield tank. They where doing it something like a year before Caldari pilots starting doing it. I forget the precise timing of all the extender changes and BC’s coming out. Might have been longer or less then 1 year.





“Blasters used to be gallente while railguns used to be caldari, so actually gallente copied caldari rails.”
Did they? I thought Gallente had bonus to railguns since day one of the game going live. Or did the bonus to hybrid turrets get changed at some point from blasters to hybrid? I don’t recall any Caldari ships having railgun bonus either back in the past but I wasn’t around at the very start of Eve and when I did start I only looked at Gallente ships. Guess I was wrong but now you got me curious. What where the old ships and which supported which weapon systems?


I know scorps used to be railships.

Carnye Dubro
Caldari
The Nietzian Way
Posted - 2006.11.25 02:57:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: Carnye Dubro on 25/11/2006 03:06:46
I'm sorry if this has been asked before (or somewhere else...)

If all ships have a shield recharge time increase of 25%, but T2 frigates and cruisers only get a 12.5% HP increase... isn't that a nerf to their shield recharge rate?

Is there just another element to the equation that balances things out that hasn't been mentioned? (I don't consider better resists ANY kind of balance IMHO)

Shin Ra
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.25 06:18:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Shin Ra
I'm afraid now that hitpoints have increased, but dmg has increased by more than 25% with the addition of rigs. Once again, having cake and eating it.

That is not true. While it is true that you can fit two rate of fire rigs or a damage rig and a rate of fire rig, these rigs are stacking nerfed with modules so if you have damage mod or two,.. three the rigs aren't really adding that much. Furthermore these rigs are adding to the grid need of your guns so putting two will likely force you to either downgrade your guns or force you to change a damage mod for a rcu or pds.


So my "missle tracking computer and enhancer" will stack with my missle exp radius/velocity rigs. Damn. Oh well at least cruise are so difficult to fit on a raven that the CPU thing matters.

Oh wait?

p.s Fix Javelin torps

Peter Stuyvesant
Amarr
Posted - 2006.11.25 10:18:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Chode Rizoum
why a cyclone have to have same hp as my sleipnir ?

Would like to know this too. What is the logic in making T2 ships have less HP than their T1 counterparts?
It really doesn't make sense to me.

rodgerd
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.25 11:14:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Peter Stuyvesant
Originally by: Chode Rizoum
why a cyclone have to have same hp as my sleipnir ?

Would like to know this too. What is the logic in making T2 ships have less HP than their T1 counterparts?
It really doesn't make sense to me.


Well, putting my if-I-was-a-dev hat on:

1/ Tech 2 HP are worth more than Tech 1 HP thanks to the massive resists.
2/ Tech 2 ships are specialised upgrades, not better-under-all-circumstances variants.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.25 12:21:00 - [199]
 


http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0611/javelin_ffs.png

Im temped to say bad things, but I trust Tux or someone else will fix this before it gets to Tranquility.

Peter Stuyvesant
Amarr
Posted - 2006.11.25 12:40:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: rodgerd
Originally by: Peter Stuyvesant
Originally by: Chode Rizoum
why a cyclone have to have same hp as my sleipnir ?

Would like to know this too. What is the logic in making T2 ships have less HP than their T1 counterparts?
It really doesn't make sense to me.


Well, putting my if-I-was-a-dev hat on:

1/ Tech 2 HP are worth more than Tech 1 HP thanks to the massive resists.
2/ Tech 2 ships are specialised upgrades, not better-under-all-circumstances variants.

Fair comments, but at least give them the same HP. Having more on T1 is still weird imo ugh

Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.25 17:11:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0611/javelin_ffs.png

Im temped to say bad things, but I trust Tux or someone else will fix this before it gets to Tranquility.


thank god it got it 7th launcher back too... Rolling Eyes Laughing

way to bend over Laughing

and you can justify hurricane not having 7th launcher now HOW? Shocked

been a long time since say this - but TBH, Weirda is completely disgusted. Crying or Very sad

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2006.11.25 17:16:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Weirda
Weirda is completely disgusted. Crying or Very sad

/me starts the "disgusted grunts society" and welcomes Weirda Razz

NB.

Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.25 17:36:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: Weirda on 25/11/2006 22:23:06
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Originally by: Weirda
Weirda is completely disgusted. Crying or Very sad

/me starts the "disgusted grunts society" and welcomes Weirda Razz

NB.

Laughing

Minmatar (Character Creation Screen):
- Are you SURE you want to play minmatar? (added to character creation process)
- You will keep nerfs that are TOO MUCH for Caldari (hardpoint reduction)
- You will get bonus that are NOT GOOD ENOUGH for Caldari (active shield boost)

*Weirda sends larger objects for CCP Hammer to throw around during balance discussion sessions Laughing

All in all, am very excited for Kali, these slap in face are getting a bit old though.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.25 18:18:00 - [204]
 


This is just some silly joke. The devs are just having some fun. Right?

Tara'Quoya Rax
Black-Sun
Posted - 2006.11.25 20:02:00 - [205]
 

Tuxford, will existing faction ships be looked upon as well?

Many faction ships are still lacking changes that the normal ships received in the past. Take the Cynabal for instance. It is still missing the grid boost some cruisers (including the Rupture) received a long time ago.

They really need to be brought up to date with the stats of the current shiplines.

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.11.25 20:22:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

This is just some silly joke. The devs are just having some fun. Right?



They should slow down abit, I still couldnt catch my breath from the blaster joke!

As I said many many many times before, the devs dont have the balls to nerf caldari in the way it needs to be nerfed especially considering the number of caldari pilots is more than both minmatar and gallente together.

marioman
Caldari
Caldari Macrominer Waste Management
United Corporations Against Macros
Posted - 2006.11.25 20:57:00 - [207]
 

Tux, I would just like to say a couple of things about the hp. I don't know if this is even an issue but shield boosters and armor reps just dont match up to the HP increases. An XL C5-L with t1 boost amp hardly moved the Rokhs shield a fraction of an inch on the display.

Also in referencing to the drake's dmg output, you say you shouldnt go out with nothing but kinetic missiles, but thats the only dmg type the bonus applies to. Why are u guys so hard set on "kinetic only" dmg bonuses for caldari ships. I mean you dont limit the bonus of gallente ships to only thermal for hybrids, or you dont limit the damage bonus to only apply to Antimatter ammo. Why cant caldari have a generic missile damage bonus?

Remember when you guys changed drones and were gonna do the gallente ships as bonuses only to thermal drones? Then you changed your minds. How about rethinking over Caldari kinetic missile bonuses. As it stands now those caldari ships only get 1/4th of a bonus vs turret ships.

Disclaimer: I specialize in caldari gunboats and gallente ships, I very rarely use missiles and usually only for ratting. I generally prefer guns in pvp, tho these bonuses are probably why.

Verizana
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.25 21:17:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Eldo Davip
Word of the day: contemplating.


actually it was mollify.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2006.11.26 01:48:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: HankMurphy on 26/11/2006 01:57:55
Originally by: Weirda
Originally by: Jim McGregor

http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0611/javelin_ffs.png

Im temped to say bad things, but I trust Tux or someone else will fix this before it gets to Tranquility.


thank god it got it 7th launcher back too... Rolling Eyes Laughing

way to bend over Laughing

and you can justify hurricane not having 7th launcher now HOW? Shocked

been a long time since say this - but TBH, Weirda is completely disgusted. Crying or Very sad


yeah, thats a nice looking graph there.

So, why is it dev's dont release graphs and such when they release these ships. You know, the whole 'supporting an argument w/ facts' rubbish? Instead of saying:
"well this pwns, nothing touches it" and
"you can fly that if you like, but i can kill you in this"

I'm sure most ppl would agree, the proof is in the pudding. Show the numbers CCP. If the drake does or doesn't need the launcher, back it up! If the hurricane would be too much above the others w/ its turret back, SHOW US!

Now i know you guys at CCP bust your asses to keep us happy and paying our monthly fee. I'm not going to make rash suggestions that you design ships by putting 7 monkeys in a locked room w/ crayons, paper and jug of liquid lsd. But you obviously have your reasons for making these changes, cant we have it backed up w/ some nifty graphs?
Originally by: Verizana
Originally by: Eldo Davip
Word of the day: contemplating.

actually it was mollify.


lololololololol

.....

i'm just kidding, it wasn't funny......

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.26 10:30:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: HankMurphy

So, why is it dev's dont release graphs and such when they release these ships.


Well, graphs dont tell the whole story. Then the lowest dps ships would always suck, and they of course dont.. many factors come into this, like tanking, speed and slot layouts.

But when you are talking about the super tank Drake, and see that kind of damage, you KNOW its very unbalanced. Its obvious. Why would you fly a turret ship when you can hit twice as hard at medium range, and tank much, much better than a turret ship at the same time? Not to mention missiles give just as good damage if the target is going 0 m/s or 200 m/s, and the transversal is low or high. Doesnt matter.


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