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Gentzen
Matroos Cantina
Izanagi Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.23 14:03:00 - [151]
 

hello. nice blog.

my concern is about the assumtion
a * t = f(a*C,a*T,dc)
is this reasonable assumption ?

cap regeneration formula is not linear, so i cannot judge this assumption is reasonable or not.
the assumtion is right if regeneration <<< drain.

# it probably requires to solve differental equation, like dc/dt=regeneration(c)-drain

can anyone explain ?

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.23 16:37:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Tiuwaz on 23/11/2006 16:38:34
what about the maelstrom? have yet to see someone who's happy about that one



/me gets a large stick and starts poking Tuxford >>poke<< >>poke<<

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.11.23 17:19:00 - [153]
 

With all these increases to hitpoints, havent you lessened the variation between the individual ships even more?

How much more survivable is an Apoc, compared to a Tempest now?


I think you should tailor each individual ship, or just give races known for tanking a flat increase.

Im minny here btw, so it'd hurt my race.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2006.11.23 17:39:00 - [154]
 

I still say the Myrmidon would be better with "+20% to Light and Medium Drone Damage and hitpoints".
Regardless of Drone bay size then it would then yield two thirds the Drone DPS of a Dominix with Heavy drones (assuming maxed skills) and one third again that of a Vexor. A pilot might choose to use Ogre IIs, with no bonus they would offer 15 DPS per drone with an effective 10 drones; alternatively he might use Hammerhead IIs which with the bonus would offer 7.5 DPS per drone and an effective 20 drones. The maximum DPS therefore would be lower than it is ATM, heavy drones would be discouraged and there would be less in the way of cries of "OMG BS weapons on a cruiser! Nerf it!".

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2006.11.23 18:27:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Gentzen
[...]
# it probably requires to solve differental equation, like dc/dt=regeneration(c)-drain

can anyone explain ?
nah, there's no need: the amount of recharge is still the same at any status. for example, if your cap were half full and you'd regenerate 10 cap in that instant, it'll be the same 10 with the change. it doesn't matter if you have 10% better cap recharge or 10% more cap itself, because both improve your cap by 10%.

so... the change will mean 25% more cap but that's evened out by the 25% extra time. therefore, if you have a stable cap, it will be stable at the same level as it still regenerates those 10 from the example at the same cap status. those values can actually neglect time (assuming the stable thing, etc.)
same with shield recharge.

people will only "feel" the change if they use fittings that run out of cap/shield, as it does so slightly later. at what point would indeed need a lil more advanced calcs (and that's not at +25% battle time, but hey...)
and that'S exactly the point of the reform

Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.23 18:52:00 - [156]
 

Thanks tux

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.23 19:29:00 - [157]
 

Just wanted to mention something about npc beefing. Belt NPC's are in the game for only one reason, to generate isk for players. Sure there's some backstory to them, and they participate in the story advancement, but people kill npcs to make isk and that's it. I'd prefer to stay away from buffing them to make them more challenging, because in the end more challenging only equates to takes longer. People don't npc to be challenged, that's what pvp is for, and IMO any future changes should take that into consideration.

Same thing happened with belt rats using forms of EW. It didn't make it more challenging, just annoying. If anything I think it should be easier to make isk off belt rats than it is now, considering the price of T2 and the rate at which pilots in 0.0 lose ships compared to those in empire.

Anwyl
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.23 19:37:00 - [158]
 

Breath=noun, it's the thing you take
Breathe=verb, the action of inhalation and exhalation
just trying to nip this one in the bud, it's becoming more and more prevalent :-)

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2006.11.23 19:51:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Godar Marak
Edited by: Godar Marak on 22/11/2006 18:33:39
Edited by: Godar Marak on 22/11/2006 18:30:26
Quote:
Tuxford : I've been busy these last months and haven't really been focusing my efforts on communicating with the playerbase.



How long has it been since Red Moon Rising? You still havent fixed Amarr. How much time do you need? Thanks for nothing.





And why do people need more time to breath in pvp? Are people suposed to figure out something when they are webbed and scrambled?

Why do you have to dumb down pvp?



Wow. This guy must not have actually read the blog.

Did Tux not just say that in order for us to make combat more interesting and involved, it has to become longer?

Yes, when heat and sub-system targeting comes in game, people WILL have to figure something out while they're webbed and scrambled. How to disable the opponent ship's ability to web and scramble!

Gotta love those people who only know how to whine and don't ever bother to actually pay attention.

Kedor
Minmatar
Universal Army
INTERDICTION
Posted - 2006.11.23 20:17:00 - [160]
 

Battles dont become 50% longer due to a 50% increase in hitpoints.

Most ships have some sort of tanking ability. Putting that into the equation we will see way less increase than 50% from before as tanking are done on one of either shield, armor or hull(real men).

Also 50% might be true in a 1 on 1 fight with same class of ships, but all other scenarios it wont hold true.

Overall I belive that we will only see an increase of battle length by about 10-15% with this implementation.


Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.23 20:50:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Gentzen

can anyone explain ?


My conclusion is that we need LaTeX support for the forum.

Others may have different conclusions...

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.11.23 21:03:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
I'm gonna answer Hakera's question as I think they are too the point and something I should have addressed in the blog.

...

lots of answers



thanks tux!

It will certaintly be nice to see faction destroyers, battlecruisers to begin with, maybe even more one of ships like the magnate and maybe even look at T2 modified faction ships that start to slide into the T3 area.

I do have one observation about capital ships, the 400% boost, that is an attempt to bring cap ships more to the frontline i assume so they can make a difference in fleet battles and some of the carriers use their logsitic abilities in battle. Do you think that combined with damage controls, they will be very hard to kill especially given the difficulty with keeping the ships still. Is this reason to increase the cap ship costs to make them a little more rare?

Shiraz Merlot
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.23 22:01:00 - [163]
 

What a parade of whiners and chestthumpers!

Keep it up, Tux, you're doing a great job. CCP continue to make the game that they want to play rather than the game a focus-group tells you to make. As long as you stick to that philosophy and strategy, you'll stay head and shoulders above other developers. If you have some digressions that are unpopular, don't worry too much. Can't please all of the people, all of the time.

Krandor87
Gallente
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
Posted - 2006.11.23 22:45:00 - [164]
 

Liked the calculus part of it. I think though the Myrmidon should have more pg not a bigger drone bat.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.24 00:12:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Xelios
Just wanted to mention something about npc beefing. Belt NPC's are in the game for only one reason, to generate isk for players. Sure there's some backstory to them, and they participate in the story advancement, but people kill npcs to make isk and that's it. I'd prefer to stay away from buffing them to make them more challenging, because in the end more challenging only equates to takes longer. People don't npc to be challenged, that's what pvp is for, and IMO any future changes should take that into consideration.

Same thing happened with belt rats using forms of EW. It didn't make it more challenging, just annoying. If anything I think it should be easier to make isk off belt rats than it is now, considering the price of T2 and the rate at which pilots in 0.0 lose ships compared to those in empire.


Speak for yourself. NPCing is a profession to generate isk yes. But PVP, market and combat, is definately effected by how easy, or not, NPCing is.

Not boosting them in any manor is makes supply lines easier to maintain as well as breaking logic of a pod pilot demographics.

Kaladr
Amarr
Posted - 2006.11.24 03:03:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Gentzen

can anyone explain ?


My conclusion is that we need LaTeX support for the forum.

Others may have different conclusions...


Agree x10000000. LaTeX math is fantastic ;)

Tessle Aesis
Amarr
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.24 03:26:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Tessle Aesis on 24/11/2006 03:30:22
Edited by: Tessle Aesis on 24/11/2006 03:28:16
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Bluetit
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: Tuxford

Why should it have better base shield per second? Its not like shield boosters work any better on t2 ships than t1 ships. The fact that you have a better tank on the t2 ships is because of the better resists which works just as much on a passive tank and as an active tank.

Furthermore increasing the recharge time less on t2 ships might potentially make them overpowered with shield extenders because

(ship_shield*1.125 + shield_ext*1.25)/(t*1.125) > (ship_shield + shield_ext)/t


I can understand this, but you've made a static 25% across the board, what about the battlecruisers which recieved a 56% increase, the shield recharge per second will get stronger, and what about the phoenix?? just wondering, not complainingVery Happy


that was sort of my point. I really don't mind if they are better or worse than T1 only that this has changed them and wanted to know if it had been thought about :) . I understand that the extenders will give 25% bonus and this could over power T2 if they only had the reduced shield charge rate.

Also the ferrox now will have an even better passive tank than it did before like the guy above said.

Thanks for all the work and i bow to the superior maths equasions :)

To be honest the whole passive tanking needs a look at. We won't really have time do anything before Revelations but expect a blog with all sorts of math logic and stuff from me after it.


About Passive Tanking, it's a thing you can do well with some Caldari Ships, you can do it in missions lvls 1,2,3. And it should remain, Caldari ships must use their mid slots to tank, so the use of a Caldari ship is a problem in PvP, you need to be in a fleet and to be supported to be able to do anything... let me know of any pirate going pirating alone with a Caldari ship different from the Scorpion. Ships are differents, if a factions excels in a thing then it falls in another. If you cut the Passive Tank feature of Caldari what remains?

Also as some1 said, run with a missile-boat orbiting really near a large target and see how missiles always hit and do damage while turrets misses, yes it's true, but it's also true turrets deal a lot more damage... So really there isn't a ship better than any other, there are ships that are better in such duties and others that performs better in other duties. That's the game.

Anyway just a word about the Drake... Kinetic damage bonus is really redicolous, it makes the ship good in PvE only against Guristas and few others, and no comment about PVP, Kinetic resistance is a must, both Hybrid and Projectile deals Kinetic damage, who goes in low-sec without a Kinetic resistance? I'd like to know. And this isn't only a Drake problems... I'd like really to see gain the RoF bonus, IMHO also a little 3% missile damage (all kind) is better than the only Kinetic damage, give the Drake any other bonus Missile Velocity, Missile Bombardment, Missile what you like... but that stupid Kinetic damage!

I've also a dubt, i didn't try test server so i don't really know, when you speak of HP increase you mean ALL, so Shield/Armor/Hull i believe... don't tell me Shields are out of this boost!

Namo Iluvatar
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.24 03:34:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 23/11/2006 10:57:43
Please add T2 shield relays and flux or at least make the named modules better then T1.



ExclamationI'll Second That!

IdeaAlso, as a food for thought (prepare flamage) since you are already are pushing capital ships way out in the lead with a 400% boost... how about pushing all the other ships up a notch in a non-linear fashion to spread them out a bit. This will/would help stratify the classes of ships a bit I would think. Say if capital ships are slated to get another 400%, then push Battleships 200%, then BCs 75%, cruisers 25% and leave frigs alone. (next patch of course, kind of hard to do all that now) My point being that a battleship will truely stand out on the field as a hitpoint monster as it should when standing next to a cruiser. A cruiser should never exceed a battleship in hitpoints IMO and with plates/extenders this is currently all too easily achieved. Just a thought.

QuestionOh yeah... and what about that hull increase? I don't want my extended 5 mintues of armor tanking to have a 3 second ending just because they made it through my armor and made 2 pop shots on my structure. (I exaggerate... but you get the point) So what about it... are we getting one of those? (he asks with a grin)Wink

Mar Idoun
Caldari
R.E.D Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.24 06:21:00 - [169]
 

With the bit about subsystems (of which I understand that this may or may not happen and if it does it will be a long time coming) I thought why just look at heat. One idea I think would be great is perhaps make a sacrifice to cargo space in return for ammunition magazines that can be targetted with the sub-system that might someday be available. This opens up a whole new can of worms though as perhaps you can only load one shot, albeit you can load and fire almost as fast as now ...OR... nerf RoF with a new magazine system and make it do crazy damage per shot and then alpha damage is the norm and straight up DPS becomes the new alpha strike but now i'm babbling.

/shutting up

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.11.24 06:47:00 - [170]
 

Is a good blog, it really is..

but wheres Gallente?

Hype is still a wierd blasterboat tbh.. You could at least say that you guys wont release this one - right?

And drone HP? Oveur said you was thinking about this - try look in the drone thread in the Kali topic and get some ideas.

Balance is fine to make a blog about, but now that you metion a few ships you cant just mention some of the buged ones - as this gives me nightmares: Do you really like the hype as it is now? Would you actually use a hype over a mega? YOu dont see a problem with HP increase and the same drone HP? Wouldnt it be too easy to take the drones out now that the fights are longer?

I can keep on..


Gigi Barbagrigia
Malevolent Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.24 07:05:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Gigi Barbagrigia on 24/11/2006 07:12:38
And there I was thinking variety in roles and classes used in combat brings tactics. Cheers for opening my eyes. I guess with longer fights I will have time to try F8, F7, F6 ... my god maybe even more advanced patterns!

When I first heard of rigs I thought great, they've finally realized fundamantal flaw in MMO PvP which is, you can tell who's what from miles away and then just go the usuall kill wizzard, kill doc, kill nuker while ignoring the tank. We will now get a tool to rig our ship to perform specific role in combat so when that apoc uncloaks it might be a tank, it might be a buffer or it might be damage dealer. Observe and react and you shall prevail. But nah, let's keep it simple sweetie, it's an apoc, ignore. Oh look, a scorp ...

As long as ships can rep themselves, buff themselves, crowd control, drain, debuff while shooting fights can last for hours you won't see much more tactics on battlefield me thinks. Yeah sure, people will have few seconds more to reflect on the enjoyment of a good gangbang. Maybe camps will now get to ask "en face or doggy style?".

Areconus
Posted - 2006.11.24 08:15:00 - [172]
 

Am i the only one who noticed he said " tech 2 battleships will be getting a 12.5% increase in hp"?Shocked

Mislea
Posted - 2006.11.24 09:26:00 - [173]
 

Out of topic but... You claiming Revelations will hit Tranquility next week... since there is no Invention test and almost no Exploration test in Singularity are these two things going to be released next week?

Earthan
Gallente
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2006.11.24 10:52:00 - [174]
 

Sounds very good, imho right direction

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.24 11:02:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 24/11/2006 11:04:47
nm

Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.24 11:23:00 - [176]
 

Out of curiosity, you do realize that hitpoint increases do not signficantly impact the efficiency of focus fire and the times to kill in focus fire situations ?

While it does impact small scale combat, which can already take a fair amount of time. I'm just curious how this (and the proxyboost to extenders and plates) is reasoned out, where you see the actual benefits to gameplay coming in by making the slow fights slower and changing nothing about the big ones (except making everything except ganks easier to avoid/survive).

Tessle Aesis
Amarr
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.24 11:46:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Areconus
Am i the only one who noticed he said " tech 2 battleships will be getting a 12.5% increase in hp"?Shocked


where did you see T2 Battleships? You are confusing Tier-3 Battlships.

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.24 11:52:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Tessle Aesis

where did you see T2 Battleships? You are confusing Tier-3 Battlships.


Acutally not...

Tech 2 battleships, cruisers and frigates get 12.5% increase

But I'm sure tux was just abit quick on the trigger thereRazz

sbaker
Amarr
Bogans INC
Posted - 2006.11.24 12:07:00 - [179]
 

Dear Mr Tux
I have got 1 question for you: If the training line for the damnation is along the lines of a curse, why cant the curse and the damnation have the same bonus? but drop the nos bonus can give it a missile bonus, or make it so it can run 5 med drones not 5 light drones and make the abso the primary laser ship for the ammar race, the damnation needs to be in line with the caldari, for what they are friends with...? What is your idea? I know it could be hitting into the nighthawks stats, but I feel like it needs a bonus to missiles since it can have 4 missile bays up on top! :) an bonus to kin and exp would be nice...but not rate of fire.... I hope to get an reply

cya

SB

infraX
Caldari
Pastry Productions Inc.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2006.11.24 12:34:00 - [180]
 

Tuxford, I've read your blog with the calculations for fight times and cap usage and such. I see what you are basing the changes on and belive that lets say a blasterthron vs tempest would boil down to the same consequences except it would take 50% longer to reach a conclusion.

Now consider the problem of Nos. What you have not worked out in your calculations is the amount of benefit that a full nos setup will receive with the hp changes. Fights are longer which gives people more time to nos more cap out of you than on tq currently. This hurts you MORE if you are using an energy using weapon system like lasers and hybrids.

Please take some time to think this over, because by your logic, you would need to multiply the amount of cap drained by Nos by that same factor 0.7 in order to not indirectly buff Nos (which is exactly what you've done.)

All out vampire setups are pwning the life out of energy weapon ships and it's completely out of balance with what we have in RMR.


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